How many times you have found yourselves to dicide whether choose among TL or FL washers? That because they have different sistems of washing...

In Europe (at least in Italy) we have been loosing the agitator since the 1958 (loosing any wringer washers and any twin tub washers), when it has been producing the first tumble action FL washers (I don't remember whether it has been produced by Cady or Rex, now both brand of Electrolux).
In the following years Rex produced the first ITALIAN TL washer (it was a portable TL washer), BUT it was with horizontal axis!!!

Now the majority of the Italian washers are FL washers, only 15% are TL washers, often owned because of the small dimensions, but I believe that none remebers agitators!
French people appreciate TL more than Italian, infact they own more TL than FL (often French apartements are very small!)... Think that they have TL drier and INCREDIBLE combo w/d with TL horizontal axis!!!!See on www.brandt.fr
In Italy combos are ONLY FL :-), as drier too.

At the end, here there's not the problem of the sistem washing but the choice is only between the loading sistems: both have horizontal axis and so tumble action!

In US the last machine which seems to our TLW is the 1947 Launderall. Now a similar sistem is using by Staber washers.
"Vote" for TL with H/axis! You may have TLW with the EFFICIENCY of the FLW...

Good Bye and Merry Christmas everyone!!!

PS: Sorry for my worst english!!!!

Hi everyone, I'm Diomede and the one above is my first post!
I love washers and I look at your website everyday... I hope in many replies!
BYE!

Bienvenudo!

Hello Diomede,

Welcome to the club. My name is Louis (some people call me Luigi) and I'm from the Netherlands.

As far as I know the first frontloader was produced in 1954 by the German company Constructa. And already in 1950 there was an H-axis toploader on the market. That one was made by V-Zug, a Swiss company.

Aside from the Staber there are indeed no H-axis toploaders on the American market. I wonder how long that will take. It would be wonderful if Miele or Bosch would sell one of their toploaders on the other side of the big pond.

Enjoy the site!

Is'n it Candy in stead of cady?

Hello belgium is calling!!
Welcome here!!!

Yes you are right my dear. Constructa was the first with an automatic frontload washer. They were simulary with the Miele's.

Well that would be a good idea. Miele or Bosch producing H-axis toploaders!!
Hopefully they are comming soon!

Is'n it Candy in stead of cady?

Hello belgium is calling!!
Welcome here!!!

Yes you are right my dear. Constructa was the first with an automatic frontload washer. They were simulary with the Miele's.

Well that would be a good idea. Miele or Bosch producing H-axis toploaders!!
Hopefully they are comming soon!

Oops two times posted. Well maybe it's because it's right!!

Welcome, Vivalalavatrice! It is wonderful to have an Italian in the club. My mother was from Veroli, Italia. Don't worry, your English is no worse than ours!

Hi Diomede

Welcome, and don't worry about the English it's fine.

Hi!

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in the U.S. Just wanted to give my perspective regarding washing machines. I remember growing up in the midwest and my mom used a ringer type washer. The machine consisted of a large tub with an agitator in the middle. She would turn it on after first filling in with water from a hose. After the clothes had washed she would use a hose that was connected to the base of the machine and drain out the wash water and then she would fill up with water again to rinse.

After the machine has rotated as much as she wanted she turn off the drum part of the machine and then she would drag out the clothes and stick the clothes through two rollers that were turning. I can remember her saying you had the be careful as the rollers would sometimes break buttons. After the clothes were wringed out, they were ready to hang.

What I described was very early in my life. I would say my mom used this machine until early 60's. About that time she got her first "automatic", which was a top loader. From what I can tell, there was a period here in the U.S. that you didn't see front loaders anywhere other than laundramats. You would go to stores and the only type of washing machines available were top loaders.

Then I bought my house in 1996. I had always enjoyed seeing the front loader run in the laundramats. I was delighted to find that they were now selling front loaders! At that time, I saw only two machines available. There was the Maytag front loader and the Frigidaire FL. I was drawn to the Maytag due to its larger capacity and the larger door. However, the salesperson directed me to the Frigidaire due to superior reviews in Consumer Reports. While I really liked the larger size of the Maytag, I really liked the exterior looks of the Frigidaire better with the glass doors (whereas the Maytag had just a solid metal door). The superior review coupled with a lower price, made up my mind to go for the Frigidaire. I should mention that Frigidaire also made the same front loader for other brands including Kenmore and GE.

Any case, when I got the machine I noticed it came with a video. It was really interesting as the video decribed how Frigidaire had done extensive research to manufactor the washer, including using designs from front loaders in Italy. I really loved the machine, but earlier this year the bearing went out (fairly common problem). I elected to go with the new Maytag Neptune, which was made by Samsung in South Korea. I found it to be a good machine, but the individual machine I ended up with had some flaws. I had three service calls and at the end there were still problems, so I elected to return it for a Kitchenaid.

Here in the U.S., Whirlpool is the biggest seller of washing machines. Back in about 2000 they entered the front load market with a really large machine (3.8 cubic feet). In addition to making the machine for the "Whirlpool" label as the Duet, they also make it under the Kitchenaid label (their own upscale brand) and for Sears under the name Kenmore. Any case, I got the Kitchenaid version. It came with a DVD in which they pointed out that they make their front loaders in Germany.

To conclude this story, now when you go into stores, you see all kind of front loaders! I went to Home Depot the other day and counted four different brands of Maytag front loaders.
They have the huge one made by Samsung, a medium size Neptune that looks very much like the Samsung, but is slightly smaller, the older version of the Maytag Neptune (which has no glass in the door) and a really small, glass doored front loader.

In addition to Maytag, Whirlpool, Kenmore, Kitchen Aid front loaders, you also see front load washers by Bosch (an European company but they make the front loaders here in the U.S.). Fridaire still makes the smaller front loader (3.1 cu. ft.), but has now come out with a larger (3.5) front loader as well. The most recent addition is a brand new front loader by GE that is made in China.

Front loaders are really growing in sales. One of the things that hold them back somewhat is price. You can get a really decent top loader for $500. A really decent front loader will run between 1,000 and 1,300. Even an basic front loader will generally run $700 or so.

The cost of American F/L-ers should come down as:

1- The novelty wears off
2- The style (of washer) becomes the expected norm.
3- Fixed costs are spread over a larger number of units(sales/mfg. volume).
4- Kinks are worked out and perhaps parts (sizes /tolerances/gauges, etc) within a brand name are standardized/ perfected.
5- Sales of T/L-ers (dut to water use) is prhoibted by law. Right now, they are avaialbe to capture the consumers who requre a low price-point. F/L-ers eill eventaully have to be made avaialble to do that, as time progresses.
6- A new exterior size "standard" evoles into being. Then any machine can replace any other as is the case now with T/L-ers that are (generally speaking) all 27 x 27 inches. (63 x 63cm )

68 x 68 cm.


:-)

I'm pleasent to have found so many replies to my post!
If I'll find some spare time in the future I'll post you the story of how I fell in love with washers... I think it would be interesting the story of a 3-years-old child running in the rain to reach his mother...:-) no more.
You will read the story in the Imperial forum (when I will have finished to write it), because everething begun with a 1981 Sangiorgio (now it's a brand of the French Brandt) FL washer.
In the same story I also tell something about my actual new TL (with H/axis remember!) washer.

Best wishes for a Merry Christmas, and Happy new year!
Good Bye!
Diomede

Never heard of Sangiorgio before, you learn something new every day here! Would you have pictures of the Sangiorgio machine?

Best wishes for you too,

Louis

Luigi wrote:

"As far as I know the first frontloader was produced in 1954 by the German company Constructa. And already in 1950 there was an H-axis toploader on the market. That one was made by V-Zug, a Swiss company."

As far as I know, the first residential front loader was produced by the US company Bendix in 1937. It was a solid mount machine but built to run on 110 volt circuits, and had a drain pump so it didn't need a gravity drain.

I remember a later model Bendix, circa about 1947, running in our cellar in the 50's. It was a classy looking machine, with its clean Deco styling. I think Unimatic has an example in his private collection. It also washed quite well, as I recall.

Sudsmaster, you are quite right. I should have said the first European frontloader. And also the first European H-axis toploader.

Merry Christmas (or happy Hollidays?)

I think, there is no difference between an H- Axis FL or TL! it just because TL dont need as much space as an FL. American washers, in my opinion, cant clean clothes as gentle as Euro machines. And the water consumption is higher. But at least they make much more fun :-) I wish I could own one! It's possible to get one, but the installation is very complicated! Are there TL in the us wit integrated Heater and 220V (maybe from a Laundromat)?

FL machines never COMPLETEY died in the US, though it it did get to the where there was only one manufacturer (White-Westinghouse) that made them

Hi Spee_man

We have TL machines with heaters up until the early 80's. However since then I dont think there are any left.

It used to take about 2.5 hours to heat the water to 60degC and during that time the machine would just soak.

The hoovermatic toploaders here in the old days had heaters. They wern't all that slow to heat up either.

Perhaps the TL machines with the heaters in Australia had very underpowered heaters?

Australia's got 10Amp outlets right?

13Amps is the norm in the UK and 16Amps in the rest of Europe.
(at 230V)

Also it's worth remembering WWII basically completely stopped ALL european consumer product innovation for about 20 years.

During the late 1940s and 1950s, Europe was effectively flat broke and rebuilding. So, many households wouldn't have even been able to afford a washing machine.

Hence, it's not supprising that the first front loaders and automatics arrived in the 1950s rather than the 1930s and 40s.

Also, once WWII kicked off almost ALL manufacturing capacity was converted from producing consumer products to producing weapons, military communications systems, radar, etc etc

So, in general, many of the companies that would have been innovating were tied up making military products.

Bendix washing machines were sold as standard equipment in the kitchens of Levitt homes back in the fifties. These were front loading machines that fit under the cabinets. Kenmore mentions that the White-Westinghouse machines were still on the market, so were household grade versions of speed queens.

I am one that tends to perfer front loading machines myself, even from my youngest days. They were fun to watch as a kid because I was eye-level with the glass door windows and could watch the tumble actions going on. My grandmother had an old Westy Laundromat that she ended up getting rid of when I was about 10 years old when the timer broke. She wanted another FL but couldn't find anyone selling one. I was dissapointed with her new TL too, because I couldn't watch it run.

I was working at Sears when the Fridigaire FL came out, and I thought that was a great machine! They were so quiet, and used so little water. They sounded really professional while running because they didn't rumble and whine like FL's did, they had a subdued whir in spin cycle, and that was about it. The insides looked very well engineered too. Despite the interest in mechanical components here, I believe properly engineered electronics will actually outlast mechanical timers and components. The Fridigaires impressed me being having more electronics, and less mechanicals than the TL's.

As much as I like FL's, I hope that they do not dissapear from the market. It's nice when buyers have a choice, and I think that they have a place on the market. One of the things that TL's are great for is soaking heavily soiled clothing, and their fast cycle times. Being single, fast cycles are not an issue with me...I just start the machine and go do other things. I imagine this could be if one had kids, and need to do a lot of clothing in a short amount of time. Oddly enough, it's not something that salespeople bring up with shoppers.

Hi MrX

Most of the machines over here had 2400W elements (10Amps). Its always been unusual to get appliances requiring 15+amps.

Our sockets are either rated at 10,15 or 20 amps.

Thank's for informations! I think I shoult try to get a English washer with internal heater, they run on 230 V too. It's Interesting I can't see any reason for the success of FL washer in Europe. The first ones were constructa and V Zug in Europe. But I cant remember a single manufacturer who made an agitator Automatic. There still where non automatic washers with agitator and a spin dryer or a wringer up to the late 60's. American manufacturers who sold their products on the european market, only purchased Fl washers.

WW2 as a reason for stopping innovations

I think this could not have been the only reason! Bendix developed the first automatic in 1937 pre- war time. Miele didn't do anything, they still sold theyr wodden tub washers with wringer. The first automatic made by miele came out in 1957 or 58. I think the reason was that the manufacturers didn't think that it could be nescesary to develope an automatic. Developments that higher the Standard of Life where mostly made in the USA! Let's take cars for example: servo steering, air condition and radio were first built in US Cars.

The first V-Zug was an H-axis toploader.

And there were some automatic agitator washers, especially from the UK. They had Servis and Hotpoint machines. Neighbours of us had an agitator machine also, but I can't remember what kind of brand it was. I've seen a GE that looks a bit like it, but I'm not sure about it.

Frontloaders probably got more popular because they heated their own water. We (actually my parents had one but replaced it by two tankless) didn't have the big tank water heaters like in the US. And frontloaders are definitely more efficient in heating their water than an agitator toploader.

After the war things were pretty tight in most European households, so there was just no market for luxury things. But in the 60's Europe was catching up I think.

I only summed up the first automatic FL washer in Europe!

Perhaps it's me, but i read that you are stating that the first FL's were Constructa and V-Zug. But the V-Zug isn't an FL.

but over there in America, fl means an H- axis washer.

Actually, FL means Front Loader in America too. The Staber washer is referred to as an H-axis toploader :-).

Jon

If all those new American FL wahsers your are speaking about were with a top loading sistem...
That's would be THE SOLUTION! Any renounce to TL advantages with the efficientest washing system!
I remember my aunt's old washer... a 1972 IGNIS (a Whirlpool brand now) h-axis TL wahsers (54cmx60cm, with a very faboulous outter tub closing system), it was a great machine! She still have a TL but now is a 1992 Zoppas (Zanussi's brand)...

If anyone knows or has got any pics of that IGNIS.. ah, I will be pleasent and greatful only to view them!

GoodBye everyone
Diomede