Do you think that the 'automatic' programme(s) in dishwashers actually work/are worth using?
I have a G1832 Miele and am very pleased with it but if I am not mistaken the sensor wash programme seems to use up more electricity/water than the standard 55/intensive 65 programmes
Andrea

It can possibly happen since the machine test the water for turbidity and according to that rises the temperature or adds an additional rinse or pre-wash.
You can be certain that the results will be better than a standard wash but the only way to get A class energy and water consumption is using the ECO programme. My dishwasher does use according to an Altroconsumo test 1,15KW in the long low temperature ECO programme and anywhere from 1,3 to 1,6KW with the other programmes and is scores A cleaning, A energy and B drying.

The Which? magazine commented that the automatic sensor programmes were variable in their results. And I think they mentioned that they worked slightly better with relatively clean dishes: the dirtier the dishes, the worse the cleaning performance.

My Bosch has 'normal' and auto programmes. The auto programmes are literally 'one touch' to select, whereas the normal programmes are buried at the bottom of the menu system.

The normal programme cycle description information, temperature, etc. was not in the manual, so does anyone know what "Normal Extra, Normal Eco, Normal, & Normal Plus" mean in terms of temperature? The manual is useless.

On my Miele G2220, I use the standard sensor wash for most things.

If the load is clean, it'll skip the prewash, and go straight into the main. It also can shorten the wash time by anywhere up to 20 minutes.

My record with the pots and pans cycle was 3 pre-washes before the main wash kicked in. That was a load of saucepans and baking trays after a large dinner party. I had scraped, but not rinsed, and it took a fair bit of effort for the machine to get rid of all the goop. A standard P&P's cycle is about 2:30. With the 2 additional heated pre-washes (1 is standard) took 3:10.

So to answer your question, the standard cycles use a fixed amount of water, time and electricity. The efficiency of the Sensor cycles is based on a standard test load, and if your dishes are dirtier than those in the test standard, then the machine will use more water to remove the dirt.

My Bosch dishwasher has an Eco-program, an Auto 55°-65° program, an intensive 70° program, a fast 45° program and a pre-rinse which I can select if necessary. Every prog. works well, no probs here. The machine was tested best in a consumer magazine.

In my experience, range from quite good - Miele to ok - GE - to very very very very very very
slow but thorough:
Amana/Maytag.
When push comes to shove, the difference between our detergents here in Europe - high enzyme, high phosphate (~30%) and the castrated stuff folks in the US have to work with plays a greater role than does the sensor. I haven't used the automatic function on my Miele in quite some time, not sense I discovered that it cleaned just as well on the manual 55° program using AS (!!!) three-in-one tabs...
Rolls-Rapide, if you list your Model number from Bosch, I will try to find out what the temps are. It never ceases to fascinate me that manufacturers leave out such details in some languages and put them in in others. I often translated technical documents in the 90's for Bosch and it seems like the German, Italian and Brazilian Port. consumer texts were more detailed than the ones bound for the Netherlands or UK/US.
Weird.

About phosphates... I'm using Svelto tablets and Finish powder... the maximum listed quantity of phosphates is only 6% not 30!

Hey,

I used to selcet the Automatic programm since I got my AEG, 7 years ago.
It cleaned very well, and was very efficient.
But now, the machine is broken and there isnīt as much pressure as it used to be, the water is just drippling.
Tops&Pans arenīt able to be washed clean in it.
The powdered detergent is glueing in the dispenser and so on.

So, there will be a new Miele with Automatic programm of course.

The Bosch Dishwasher is the LOGIXX "Automatic" SGS-09-L-08.
It will be about 4 years old now. The "Normal" programmes have very little in the way of detailed cycle description.

The "Summary of Instructions" leaflet merely gives duration, power consumption and water consumption:

Normal Extra: 135mins, 0.65kWh, 19litres.
Normal Eco: 150mins, 1.05kWh, 14litres.
Normal: 140mins, 1.05kWh, 14litres.
Normal Plus: 140mins, 1.05kWh, 15litres.

What I would like to know, is the temperature and cycle content in the style of: (eg. "Prewash; Main wash at 65deg; 2 intermediate rinses; final rinse; drying").

I once asked Bosch, but they said that it depended upon the sensors!?!! Well, to my mind, the Normal/Standard programmes will be rigidly 'fixed' - without any (or limited, at least) fuzzy logic sensing/extending time capability.

Trying to get sense from any silly company "customer care" rep, is nigh on impossible these days. And it ain't funny.

Our Bosch has the temps on the cycle buttons:

Intensive : 70C
Normal : 65C
Normal : 65C
Eco : 50
Quick : 45

and a Pre-Rinse cycle.

It has "vario speed" where the water pressure varies and a diverter valve which alternates between top and bottom washing to save power/water.

No automatic functions, but Normal 65C will pretty much clean anything perfectly within a reasonable time.

I have a six year old Bosch SHU8802 (US model) with only three cycles: Power Scrub Plus (70C, takes nearly two hours), Regular (60C, a bit over an hour) and Quick Wash (45 C, not NSF certified, takes about 35 minutes). The machine does not have a rinse-hold cycle....I bought it the first month that the model was released for sale in USA....and the store didn't even have a floor model for me to inspect. Instead, I relied on the manual sent to the dealer, which stated that it had the two hotter cycles plus rinse/hold. So I was a bit surprised when it was delivered, as I discovered I got a third wash cycle that I didn't know I would have.

Quick Wash is good for lightly soiled items, say you're having a cocktail party with lots of glasses, or a crowd over for coffee and dessert. What's nice about it is that it gets these kinds of loads clean QUICKLY so that you can load it up again if need be. New Miele models in the US have a "party" program which is the same idea....washes the load in about 45 minutes as long as it isn't heavily soiled.

For everyday use I just hit the Normal button. I only use Power Scrub Plus for heavily soiled loads, particularly if I haven't rinsed them and just throw everything into the machine.

Not having rinse-hold is probably an energy saver for me, since I would be tempted to run it every time I put a few soiled items into the machine. However, rinse-hold on Bosch machines uses only 1.5 gallons (6 liters more or less), and I might use that much water just to rinse that many dishes before loading them in the dishwasher.

Other than very heavily encrusted pots and pans, everything comes out sparkling clean, for the past six years with no problems or service whatsoever. I don't know if current models are built to the same level of quality, but my current machine was quite a bargain for $600. So quiet you can use the kitchen or adjacent family room while it's running, you can barely hear it.

Can honestly say have never used "Rinse Hold" in my life. Just load dishes into the DW until have a full load. Could be a day,two or longer until the machine is run, but everything comes out clean. Then again am using a simple older Kenmore 18" DW that uses lots of water.

So sue me!

*LOL*

L.

I just missed customer service today, will try again Monday. You are right, getting a simple answer now-a-days is well nigh impossible.
This is a stand alone, no?

Yes, this is the freestanding model, in silver.
It was the series that superceded the SGS**A** series.

I had originally ordered the 'A' model, and the local dealer got back to me, saying a newer version had just been launched. The main difference was the addition of the "VarioFlex" baskets.

Like everyone else, I took bad at first, trying to fit certain plates into the top basket; side plates scrape the roof!. I also found that the saucers, if placed in a certain position did not wash clean: almost as if the upper spray arm was missing a spray hole at that particular point.

The previous machine was a Hoover (Candy-sourced) model, and that machine would accept anything in the top basket: even the grill pan (it had no overhead spray head, unlike the Bosch). The Hoover had a two-speed motor; Normal and "Superlavage" (Superwash). This was another name for the Candy HPS (High Performance System), an energetic spray that cleaned the dishes better. This was quite a flexible machine, but rather noisy and a little on the flimsy side.

I agree, Launderess, if I had to choose between a machine offering the three cycles I have, or the two heavier cycles I have plus rinse/hold, I would choose the three programs I now have. Bosch offers both choices in its entry-level Integra machines (solid panel front, controls in the door edge) for about the same price, but at the time I bought, there was no rinse-hold option (the sales manual said there was, but it was in error and the entry level model--mine--had three cycles without rinse-hold). I do use the Quick Wash from time to time, either when entertaining and I need to cycle the machine quickly, or else for lightly soiled loads.

the kenmore dishwashers certain model is the smart wash system that controls water temp and here is a picture as well

except when I fill the Jet Dry dispenser. When I see that liquid run down the stainless door I feel the need to run a quick RInse and Hold if it is going to be a while before the dishes get washed. Not sure why I do that. Perhaps it's a habit I learned before I had a machine with a stainless interior. Does anyone else do that? Do I need to?

probably not.

Most bottles of rinse and indeed dishwasher owner's manuals advice wiping up any excess rinse aid that spills over when filling the compartment. Apparently the excess rinse aid can cause excess foaming in subsequent wash cycles if not dealt with.

Being as this may, never really bother and haven't noticed any problems. I mean if a few dribbles spill out I'm not going to run into a panic or break a sweat.

I never use the rinse & hold cycle, when wedo normal cooking it runs twice a day, if we have guests or make some extensive cooking we run it 3 times...

I finally got through to Bosch. They don't have details on this specific model in Munich.
The very nice customer service said exactly what others have said above would apply. I'm cutting and pasting here:
Intensive : 70C
Normal : 65C
Eco : 50
Quick : 45
The automatic system does have a different heating pattern and will do a better job on starches because the enzymes are given longer to work at 45 degrees before ramping up to 65 degrees.
Sorry I couldn't help you more.

Thank you for your time and effort.

It is disappointing, but I'm really not surprised at the lack of information held by Bosch, as the "Standard Programmes" are buried at the very bottom of the "Options" menu structure:

Level 0: Rinse & Hold, Auto Programmes
Level 1: Delay start
Level 2: Reduce time
Level 3: Extra drying settings
Level 4: Buzzer volume settings
Level 5: Water hardness settings
Level 6: Rinse aid settings
Level 7: Languages: DE,EN,FR,NL,IT,EL,ES,PT,SV,NO,FI,DA,TR,RU,PL,CS,HU
Level 8: Standard Programmes

As you can see, I don't think they were meant to be used regularly (if at all!).

The idea behind rinse/hold is to help protect items like silverware and stainless, and maybe some glassware/dinnerware, from being corroded by food residue (especially salty or acidic).

That said, I've never used it either. Seemed like a waste of water to me. But I might try it next time I have a partial load and don't plan on running the dw until it's full up the next day or two.

I also thought that Europe was the one with castrated dw detergents - with little or no phosphates. The 8% phosphorus label on US dw detergents would proably correspond to about 20% or more phosphates - since phosphorus is just part of the phosphate molecule (the rest is sodium and oxygen, as I recall). And I thought that European dw detergents were using phosphonates, which are different from phosphates (and supposedly don't support growth of algae).

Anyway, I have a Bosch SHU430C MOL model. Got it for $350 at Sears - it was a customer return. Slight dented but works perfectly. It doesn't have an ECO setting. Just Powerscrub, normal, quick, and rinse hold. I almost always use the Normal setting, which is usually about 100 minutes. I know it has a soil sensor, but haven't timed it with various loads. And I don't pre-rinse the dishes - just dump off the big stuff into the disposer and let it rip. It cleans better than the previous built-in DW I had - a MOL Frigidaire - with much less hassle. And it doesn't send lightweight plastic items flying around the inside of the dw, either.

A few years ago Consumer Reports stated that they found that dirt sensor equipped dishwashers could take longer, and use more energy and water, to wash loads than a non-sensor type dishwasher.

Well those who love phosphate dw detergents in the US may wish to start stocking up. There is a major push going forward by the usual suspects to finally do away with the exemption for the stuff in dw detergents. Recent high marks for "green" dw detergents by such publications as Consumer Reports is adding futher fuel to the fire.

L.

We used Rinse/Hold pretty often on the KDI-17a. I rarely used it on my KUDS22, and have never on my DishDrawer. I recall back to the KDI-17, that Rinse/Hold keeping everything moist would often *increase* odors from stagnant food soils if left over the course of a couple days.

I agree about the odours from stagnant soiled water after using Rinse & Hold. Far better to place most items in the machine and only rinse particularly troublesome items under the tap, then place them in the machine.

The problem with Rinse & Hold is that it spreads all the muck about the cabinet. It really needs follow-up rinses to further dilute the soiling, and when you look at it from that angle, it virtually becomes a complete wash cycle!