My mom has a Kitchenaid Imperial (WaterSaver IV) dishwasher which was installed in the late 70's maybe even very early eighties. She has hardly used it over the years. Basically it was used around the holidays and even then, very sparingly.

During the last few years, after she would finish loading it, put the detergent in, and then start the machine, the pump would activate for the usual few minutes, then stop and "seem" to continue on in the cycle. The cycle would last for more than 2 hours. She said this was normal and "it's the way it always has worked". Well, she finally has listened to me and I have told here that I have reasone to believe that the timer may be shot because, if you choose to advacne it becomes very difficult to turn once you pass the dry cycle. It seems to get stuck and you have to open the door to bring the dial/pointer back to the start position. the Sani indicator light comes on and stays on forever....what seems hours later, you hear a sudden whoosh! The rinse and wash cycle has finally kicked in.

My question is this: How can you know for sure that timer is shot? And, how much is a new timer and are they still available? How easy are they to install on your own?

Thanks!
Louis

She may be right.

Many KA brand machines stop the pump early in the cycle to heat the water, then resume the cycle.

Also yes the KA timer turns easily to the end of the dry cycle. Popping open the handle /door-latch advances the timer another click or so, at which point it again moves freely.

My mother wanted a KA in the early 90's and they were not available in stores. An old-age home behind my aparment buildng was throwing away three DW-ers simultaneously, so I rescued a MOL KA, scrubbed it and installed it. Figuring they worked, but were sim;y being renewed.

She never did get the hang of the timer and its ways. I eneded up replacing it with a new WP. She claimed the machine would not start for her. It worked fine for me when I ran it for the holidays she was hosting.

..and lets keep in mind I scrubbed and bleached the thing to within an inch of its life.

I swear on all that is holy, there was no smell of urine, old-age or formadehyde (embalming fluid) anywhwere near the thing!

So I dont thing she "skieved" (sp?) it!

(DUCKS AND RUNS!)

Louis, first of all, the correct name is Energy Saver IV. Second, the timer is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. The timer had a built-in "stop" once it completed the cycle. After the handle was raised at the end of the cycle, the timer energized and advanced a slight bit from off to the start position automatically. This was done so that when you pushed a button, the machine started immediately. Third, it's normal, from friends that have had this same series of KitchenAids, for the cycle to take up to 2 hours. The machine heated the water to 150 degrees 2 to 3 times during the cycle and it's pauses to do so were lengthy if incoming water temperature wasn't very high. The machine sounds like it's functioning perfectly normal.

Well I'll be damned! Yes, I mistakenly called it a WaterSaver IV when I knew it was an EnergySaver IV---Opps!

I guess what I am trying to say is that at the beginning of the cycle, the pump runs....then shuts......and for a long time it seems nothing happens....no water fill or anything....you mean this is normal? How can I be sure?

Yes, this is all very normal. This was the last of the KitchenAids that didn't have the reversing motor. So, it started by filling with water while the pump ran. Then after the fill period, it stopped and heated the water. That first fill took a very long time to heat the water if you didn't run the hot water at the sink first until the water ran hot at the faucet. I had friends who had a Superba version of this, and also some friends with the same machine your mom has, where it did this sequence, fill & circulate water at the same time, the pause to heat the water. And the water heating light will glow while it's heating. It's also normal for you to hear hissing and such noises while it's heating because the water is getting hot. Once the 150 degree tempeerature is reached, it will let the timer begin to advance again and it will start circulating water again. The 19 series (Energy Save IV) didn't stay on the market but about 3 years because customers were not used to the cycle taking so long.

Most dishwashers are located adjacent to and draw their hot water from the same pipes as the sink. It is good to get into the habit of opening up the hot water faucet untill the water runs good and hot just before starting up the dishwasher.

If the machine heats it's own water, that may help shorten the time it takes to do so.
If it doesn't, it will simply help the machine in the first part of the cycle, as it needs to get everything inside as hot as possible to be effective.
HOT water cleans.

My mom had the EnergySaver IV Superbra19 series for 25 years.
These models did not have a drying heater. They were made for about a year and a half. In the first water fill and the last rinse the water would heat to 150 degrees. In the first fill it should take about 15 to 20 minutes max to heat the water to 150. And in the last rinse 8 to 10 minutes max to heat to 150. Given the temperature is about 120 going into the machine. If it is taking longer than that their is probably a problem with the thermostat. The last year my mom had the machine their was a problem with the heater and she used the fast wash cycle only exclusive to the superbra model. The drying was not great because it depended on the last rinse heated water to dry the dishes with the fan no heat dry which was about a 40 minute drying period. When we started to use Jet Dry the performance improved drastically. The cycle time was about 2 hours and in those days that was unheard of. When we had people over and we needed the dishes in a hurry we would open the door after the final rinse and flash dry them. I think also at that time only the superbra and pratican models had a jetdry dispenser. So drying performance on the imperial and custom models probably couldn't be improverd. It was a very good dishwasher and the cleaning was outstanding. But KitchenAid got smart after that and put the drying heater back in on the 20 series after many complaints. That one heated the first water fill only. I never understand why they didn't use the water heating for just the main wash portion, it would have made more sense. They should have designed the 19 and 20 series machines like the 18 series and had the main wash heat to 140 and that would have solved the problem and used much less electricity. Oh well we should have been the Engineers.
Peter

With all of the Kitchen-Aid banter that has been floating around this website, it has been getting me all hot and bothered in purchasing one again.

Overall, what would be the best or ultimate Hobart model to obtain as far as wash-ability and performance?

Let's hear it for the 18 series, but with the upper wash arm of the 19 series. Unfortunately, Peter, the main wash does not have a thermal hold for water heating. The heater operates one element at 700 watts during the 7 or 8 minute main wash. Given a nominal one degree rise per minute, it might maintain the incoming temperature, but the first winter I had mine which was probably 77-78, we had a very cold January where the temperature barely rose out of the 30s for a month. To save oil, the apartment building cut back on the hot water temperature. The washing results suffered and the Sani-Rinse was a necessity for drying.

Among the many things that seem stupid about KA's water heating ventures was that the machine spent all of that time and electricity heating hot water that came into a cold tub then dashing it against room temperature dishes and then refilled with water that had been sitting in the pipe and cooling for 20 minutes or more. After the wonderful cycles of the 18 Superba, Hobart seemed to lose good judgement as they experimented with increasingly strange ways to save energy and water. They could have learned a lot from Whirlpool's engineers who came up with a wonderful water miser cycle of two washes and two rinses. Selecting the water heating option adds heat to the main wash to guarantee a temperature of about 150F so the first wash uses the heat in the water to warm up everything as it washes with cooler water to help remove starches and other soils best removed before the water gets really hot. The water heating option will also guarantee a high temperature rinse, but usually, the high temperature wash keeps the load hot enough that there is no heating delay in the last rinse. Lightly soiled loads come clean without the water heating delay since the heater operates during the wash anyway, but heavier soils benefit from the longer and hotter wash. How one company that makes two brands could get it so right with one and so befuddled with the other is beyond comprehension.

The 19 series was produced from August 1979 through February 1981 - the shortest run of any KA model line. The non-heated drying was one of the biggest complaints, as well as the extended cycle times for heating the water. The 19 series heated the final rinse water to aid in drying but that system caused filming of glassware that was also despised by owners. The 800 watt heater for drying returned in the 20 series as well as the water heating in the first fill in models with the "Sure Temp" designation.

Hi Greg,
In our 19 series we never had a problem with glassware filming. It was just the long cycle time and the poor drying performance. But at least after using jet dry their was a major improvement. Yes Tom Whirlpool had the better idea with the optional water heating in the main wash and rinse. Even with the later KA models when they put the drying heater back you still couldnt adjust weather or not you wanted water heat. In the later 80's when ISE started to produce the KA dishwashers under their name they came up with a better water heating system. The main wash would heat the water to 140 unless you selected energy saver wash. Than the lower priced KA models were simular fuction. But the TOL KA models still had that first water fill water heat. And that stayed till the very end of the series. Even though the KA water heating sequences were screwed up I wish they still made those well constructed machines.
Peter

We had the Suberba energy saver V from 1981. My mom ran this machine at least once very day or two until they sold the house lsst summer and it never had a repair beyond cleaning an internal filter on the water input line that had gotten clogged up over time. It was a great machine for cleaning and was preety fast in comparison to todays machines. My parents always kept the inlet water pretty hot. This machine only heated the water at the very first wash for 10-15 minutes. I loved the soak and scrb cycle tht did heat the water wash reheat the water and then continue into the regular cycle. It also held the water for heating during the fihal rinse of the sani cycle. This model did have a heated dry and the disher were very hot upon cycle completion

Peteski,

Did these models dry with the heating coil in the bottom of the washtub(with fan assist)?

My KA dries with a heater fan(22 series).

Gary, it purposely was designed to dry in no-heat dry mode. There wasn't an option, it just did.

Hi Gary,
These KA dishwashers all had a no heat dry. Only made for about a year in a half. The last rinse was always a sani rinse so that was supposed to enable the dishes to dry. The drying phase was about 40 minutes long. The fan would cycle on and off for about 20 minutes and than the last 20 minutes the fan would stay at a constant. It probably would have worked better if the tub was SS. But like I said the Jetdry did make the difference.
Peter

Definitely nothing made by Whirlpool!
Stay away from anything after the 22 series!
In my opinion, even though I am still using my KDS-18 and have another sitting right next to me in my garage awaiting a refubishing(basically a cleanup) I would say that the best machine that Hobart designed was the 21/22 series units.
These were truly the most advanced dishwashers anyone designed here in the states.

These units had a true garbage disposer in the pump with a metal drain impeller which ground up just about everything it touched and then placed that debris in a soil chamber to be held till the machine drained whereby, the jets on the underside of the washarm would spray the fine mesh filter clan and the food stuffs would go down the drain harmlessly.

Now dosen't that sound just like what nearly every other machine still does today but without the aid of that exclusive disposer setup?

I kid you not when I tell you, I took a full percolator basket of coffee grinds(4 cup size Farberware) and dumped it right into my KDC21 and did only a rinse and hold cycle to see how well that filtering system worked and I have to say that there was little or no evidence of any grinds on any of the dishware in the machine. That is not to say there was absolutley none, but if it had been a full wash cycle, I would say you would be hard pressed to find any grinds at all.

That design was used in those machines and then along came the 23 with its whirlpool clone of the same system( Power module system??) Did a good job but definitely was a cheaper alternative. And it also seems that they really cheaped out on the porcelain in the tanks as well as the rack coating as you will see so many of that vintage machine looking like total crap now and so many of the older units still look new.

I will also say that I would put my 18 up against just about anything out there today and say it cleans just as well if not better than anything out there today and does it all in less than an hour!

Now you know why my wife won't let me install the brand new KUDP02IRWH2 I have had in the box for over a year.
Oh God, If I ever prevailed in getting it installed and it did not meet the results of the 18, I would definitley have to live in the garage!