Need suggestions -- Dishwashers just not washing.


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Thread Number: 11217
Need suggestions -- Dishwashers just not washing.

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Post# 201704 4/6/2007 at 20:20 (6,222 days old) by selectomatic ()
Checkrate/Likes Hi! I've lurked around here for a while now, and I check out the Picture of the Day every day, but I only just got around to signing up. I've got a problem which showed up in both of my Kitchen-Aid dishwashers at the same time, and I'm hoping someone here can help me solve it. Background:I have a home in the country with a private well. I've lived here for a little over 17 years, but the problem has just showed up in the last year or so. I have two Kitchen-Aid dishwashers which are both about 19 years old -- one's a Superba, and the other's a Custom 21. Being a creature of habit, I really haven't changed the way I use the dishwashers (just put dirty dishes in them without rinsing or scrubbing, and run them when they get full), nor have I changed my eating habits (I'm from Wisconsin -- LOTS of milk, cheese, and sour cream). I never had much problem unless I overloaded the machines, or if the filter screen around the bottom got clogged. Suddenly in the last year or so I've had problems with dishes, glasses, and flatware not getting clean. It seems to be particularly dairy products that aren't coming off. Milk glasses will have visible streaks and drops of milk still in them after washing, and they will smell like sour milk. Plates which have had cheese sauce on them will have a crust on them. Spoons used for dolloping sour cream onto things will have a white scum on them. Other (non-dairy) dirt is cleaned off without problem. And it's not just dishes that have sat for several days (this has never been a problem in the past anyway); it'll happen with dishes put in just before running the machine. I use Cascade powder, normal wash, and no-heat dry. I've checked to be sure that the water is flowing, and that the filter is clean. After running the dishes through a cycle, the residue is so stubbornly stuck on the dishes used for dairy products that I can't scrub it off UNLESS I pour a little vinegar on them. Then it comes right off. I've tried adding vinegar to the water in the dishwashers, and it seems to help keep the machines clean and it makes the dishes sparkle more, but it doesn't solve my problem. Again, I'm pretty sure that the machines are functioning correctly and that there have been no changes in the way I do things. Any help in sorting this out would be greatly appreciated. -kevin

Post# 201706 , Reply# 1 4/6/2007 at 20:42 (6,222 days old) by cehalstead (Charleston, WV)
Checkrate/Likes *....not washing....* Are the machines filling to the proper level? I had a GE that had a bad water valve and it didn't fill with enough water. Because of that, the spray was not forceful enough and I got only half-clean dishes. Might not be your problem, but would be worth checking....

Post# 201745 , Reply# 2 4/6/2007 at 23:38 (6,222 days old) by rinso (Meridian Idaho)
Checkrate/Likes I had exactly the same problem with my GE that Chuck had with his. A malfunctioning water valve that didn't let the machine fill with enough water. The result was that I was experiencing the same symptoms you report with your Kithchen Aid machines. The confusing thing is that it is happening to both units. I assume you've checked out the other possibilities like water entering the machines not being at about 140 degrees. One thing you could do, is have a local water softener company come out an analyize your water. Could be that its mineral composition has changed.

Post# 201802 , Reply# 3 4/7/2007 at 01:48 (6,222 days old) by wcd63 ()
Checkrate/Likes *Re not washing* Hi the above advise ir right check that out first. but I would cecommend that you get a detergent with enzimes in it and it will make a huge difference! I use believe it or not but the wall mart brand and find it to be very good at cleaning! I would also check to see if you have enough Jet dry in the dispencer. Any automatic dishwasher detergent will work but the enzime makes all the difference. I used to use Cascade but was not happy with it and started buying the Wall mart brand. for a large box its only $ 2.89 and works well for that price. try it it might work. also just run about three cups of whit viniger through the machine empty. it will clean all the lime deposits out and that should do the trick. CU rated the wall mart brand detergent as very good a year or so ago. I have been happy with it. it should do the trick unless you have a service issue.

Post# 201836 , Reply# 4 4/7/2007 at 08:41 (6,222 days old) by selectomatic ()
Checkrate/Likes *Hmmm,* I'm pretty sure that the machines are filling sufficiently, but I'll check that. As to water temperature, the Superba Classic 21 heats the water before it starts to wash, and the Custom 21 heats while it's washing -- but again nothing's changed about the way I run them in 17 years. Certainly nothing drastic in the last year. Assuming that I didn't miss some major mechanical problem that coincidentally affect both machines at once, I'm thinking that it must be a change in my water or a change in the formulation of the Cascade. I'll look into enzyme soaps. Maybe Sam's Club has it -- I can't bring my self to go to Wal-Mart. Vinegar's great for keeping the machines clean. Thanks for the suggestions! This problem is REALLY annoying -- I don't want to have to start washing my dishes by hand before putting them in the machines like my mom does! -kevin

Post# 201868 , Reply# 5 4/7/2007 at 10:14 (6,222 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)
Checkrate/Likes Does the detergent wash out of the dispenser cups? There is a screen inside the fill valve. If it's partially plugged, it will impede the flow of water and not give a full enough fill of water. Also check the delivery tube that feeds the top rack. Make sure it mates with the nozzle in the back of the tub when the upper rack is pushed in. It delivers water to the upper rack. Hope this helps!

Post# 201893 , Reply# 6 4/7/2007 at 11:50 (6,222 days old) by dadoes (TX,�U.S. of A.)
Checkrate/Likes Dumb questions I guess ... but have you confirmed the spray arm isn't clogged or the pump impeller broken and not providing full-power flow?

Post# 201914 , Reply# 7 4/7/2007 at 13:19 (6,222 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)
Checkrate/Likes It the water heater delivering water at the temperature it used to? Try draining the water heater. Accumulated sediments (if it is gas-fired) may be preventing adequate heat transfer from the flame underneath. If your hot water heater was refently replaced, please check the thermnostat's settings. A friend just got a new one installled and Sears set thing to "pee warm" instead of a respectable decent hot temp. Also with the friend's new electric HWH, there was an adjustment avaiable for 3,800 watts (for a 20a line) or 5,500 watts (for a 30a line). Had to correct this for the higher wattage (faster recovery) as well. Hope this helps.

Post# 201931 , Reply# 8 4/7/2007 at 13:57 (6,222 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions)
Checkrate/Likes Maybe your well water has changed. More minerals?

Post# 201954 , Reply# 9 4/7/2007 at 15:45 (6,221 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)
Checkrate/Likes *TWO OR THREE MORE CHECKS TO MAKE* Pull out the lower rack and give the 4 Way Hydrosweep a spin. It should spin freely and coast to a stop. If it turns a bit and shudders to a stop or can be rocked from side to side on its support, the wash arm needs to be lifted up and examined. The inside of the hub can wear to the point that all of the water pressure is lost right there before it gets to the dishes. Check the blue rubber tube that goes from the port on the back wall of the tank to the wash arm under the upper rack. Those can deteriorate to where they no longer seal and water pressure is lost. Maybe with all of that dairy and cheese you put in them, they have finally gotten constipated. Is everything inside the dishwasher sort of coated with a gray powedery film? The twenty one series began the dark era of one rinse after the wash. Over the years, there can be a buildup of minerals and detergent that is not sufficiently rinsed away and for every bit that you see, there is just as much inside the wash arms. If this is the case, run a cycle with a citric acid product such as Fruit Fresh which is usually stocked with the canning supplies to keep non acid fruits from turning brown once the flesh is exposed to air. Use it in the pre wash and main wash portions of the cycle. Repeat this until there is no film when the inside is dry. For the odor problem, when the door is open, pour or spray a strong cleaner like Knight's Spray 9 on an old washcloth or towel and scrub the area under the door. An alternative is to wet a cloth with hot water and sprinkle some dishwasher detergent on it and scrub the area. If you use anything but DW detergent, rinse the area well with a clean wet cloth so that the cleaner does not get into the sump and suds you out of the kithchen.

Post# 202053 , Reply# 10 4/7/2007 at 20:04 (6,221 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes *Sam's Club is Walmart* I hate to burst your bubble, but Sam's Club IS Wal-Mart and vice versa.

Post# 202103 , Reply# 11 4/7/2007 at 22:00 (6,221 days old) by maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes *Both powder formulas of Cascade,* and the Cascade Complete gel have enzymes. The Cascade Pure Rinse gel does not have enzymes. When I get Cascade, I use the Pure Rinse powder. Right now, however, I am using, and pleased with, the Electrosol 3-in-1 tablets. Lawrence/Maytagbear

Post# 202205 , Reply# 12 4/8/2007 at 09:09 (6,221 days old) by selectomatic ()
Checkrate/Likes *My bubble notwithstanding,* Wal-Mart and Sam's Club may be owned by the same company, but they're hardly identical. Anyway. I just checked my box of Cascade Pure Rinse Formula Powder, and sure enough it lists 'enzymes' in a warning on the side. They sure aren't touting it as a selling point though. I've never used any of the tablets or liquids in my machines -- I've always sort of thought that it was the same stuff in a more expensive medium. Other than the convenience of tablets, is there a real benefit of one type over the others? -kevin

Post# 202308 , Reply# 13 4/8/2007 at 17:52 (6,220 days old) by rolls_rapide (.)
Checkrate/Likes *3-in-1 Tablets* These can be useful for normal to heavily soiled loads on a 'normal' programme. However, they might not dissolve fully on the 'quickwash' cycles; or they might dissolve too soon on an extended programme like 'super intensive'. Better results are usually achieved with separate powders and rinse-aids, as dishwashers are designed to release the agents separately at certain stages of the programme. In the UK and Europe we have 3-in-1's, 4-in-1's, 5-in-1's and very dubious claims of 10-in-1 functions!

Post# 202312 , Reply# 14 4/8/2007 at 18:00 (6,220 days old) by bobbins (Victoria, BC, Canada)
Checkrate/Likes Here is my two cents..I use to repair KA for a living (the Hobart models...pre Whirlpool) Following is a check list: 1) Hot water tank - (electric - two elements working?) and set to minimum 140 deg F 2) Spray arm - check to see if the brass ring has worn in the spray arm. Usually you will need to replace the spray arm and sometimes the support. 3) clogged spray arm 4) rinse agent - have it been dispensing 5) check you water (well?) hardness? 6) old detergent 7) float is loose - not clogged with oils and food 8) spray arm obstructions - rotate smoothly 9) splits in the spray arm(s) ? 10) screens in the solenoid valve plugged? (not getting enough water to fill the tub) I hope at least one or several of these items may help you! Good Luck! Bob

Post# 202560 , Reply# 15 4/9/2007 at 16:40 (6,219 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )
Checkrate/Likes So have you checked to see if it's filling up with water ok? only takes a minute.

Post# 202669 , Reply# 16 4/9/2007 at 22:23 (6,219 days old) by selectomatic ()
Checkrate/Likes *Water temperature and level are good.* I have indeed checked this, as well as having ensured that the water is splashing all over everywhere, and that the Hydrosweep arms are moving. The more I investigate, the more I think it's a problem with the composition of the water rather than with the machines. This would explain why I started noticing problems both in the bar and in the kitchen at around the same time. It's hard to believe both machines would have identical failures pretty much simultaneously. Dried-on eggs, tomato sauce, baked-on meatloaf, and pretty much any non-milk-based mess comes off with no problem (again, unless I overload the machine). As to Rinse Agent, I've never used it. I did try some about 6 months ago to see if it would help with this problem, and it didn't. I appreciate the suggestions, and I hope to come up with a happy solution before too long. I'm just dreading what might have happened to my well that would have led to this sort of problem -- and how much it'll cost to fix. -kevin

Post# 202682 , Reply# 17 4/9/2007 at 22:47 (6,219 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)
Checkrate/Likes *When in doubt distiller, distiller, distiller for driniking* Please don't forestall getting your well-water checked. The media here often show how someone has been ill for decades due to bad water from their well.

Post# 202749 , Reply# 18 4/10/2007 at 08:23 (6,219 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)
Checkrate/Likes STOP USING CASCADE!!!!!I haven't used that trash since 1970 when it ruined our crystal stem ware.The chemical compounds they use for some reason has a tendancy to leave a hard to remove film on glossy smooth finishes.I have used and swarn by Electrosol dishwasher detergent(also known as Finish in some areas)and used it faithfully getting excelent results everytime!They introduced the tablets to the American market a few years ago and have been highly rated in CR for a long time.The restaurants,hospitals,jails and institutions including schools and colleges use nothing but Electrosol and Jet Dry (wetting agent that goes into the final rinse)in their dishwashers.It's also less expensive than Cascade,All,Sunlight,and Calgon.

Post# 202754 , Reply# 19 4/10/2007 at 08:37 (6,219 days old) by gadgetgary (Bristol,CT)
Checkrate/Likes *Electrasol* I agree. That is what I use in my two KA's and GE 2800. I don't get good results with Cascade. And I also like the Walmart Brand detergent......results are equal to Electrasol.

Post# 202784 , Reply# 20 4/10/2007 at 11:31 (6,219 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)
Checkrate/Likes Maybe you should try one of the detergents that have chlorine in the formula. The 21 series did not have the long extended washes that the new machines have to make the best use of the enzymes.

Post# 202785 , Reply# 21 4/10/2007 at 11:50 (6,219 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)
Checkrate/Likes *idea* I don't believe that two machines are likely to fail in the same way at the same time without some external cause. There are some pretty reliable self-test kits for your water at places like Home Depot. The extension service of your state's agricultural services also will offer water testing at a reasonable price. My guess is that the mineral content of your well water has shifted and this has affected the ph at the least, added "hardness" most likely and may have some consequences for health or other appliances using the water. Quick check: Why not get enough water from a known good source and use it to fill and run a load through one of the machines? If the problem goes away, that is reason enough to go for the testing. I do think you should stop drinking the water until you know for sure what has happened. Who knows - maybe it now qualifies as an exclusive "mineral water" and you are sitting on a potential fortune!

Post# 202941 , Reply# 22 4/10/2007 at 21:34 (6,218 days old) by selectomatic ()
Checkrate/Likes *Testing my water* I think this is a good idea. The portion of my property where my house and well are located is solid limestone, and the well is 70 feet deep. Because of my location and the depth of the well, I don't fear industrial or agricultural contaminants, so the usual causes of well-water-related illnesses are unlikely, but I've always had ridiculously hard water and no water softener. The limestone definitely hardens my water, creates quite a bit of build up, and makes my water decidedly alkaline (which is probably why vinegar -- dilute acetic acid -- helps). I'll check out Home Depot, and I'll call my County Agent (I always hesitate to do this, since I always imagine I'll end up talking to Hank Kimball). On another note, I'm a bit surprised at the vehement anti-Cascade sentiment expressed by Laundromat. I've certainly never studied this, but as I said in my OP, I have been using Cascade in these dishwashers with these same glasses for over 17 years, and they haven't been damaged. I'll freely admit that I haven't done any comparisons of dishwashing detergents, but I've never had any problems in the past. Other products may well be better, and I'm more than willing to switch, but my Libbey Accent glasses have survived the experience intact, if sometimes a bit milk-stained. Let me know what the best automatic dishwashing detergent available in my area is, and I'll gladly try it. -kevin

Post# 202976 , Reply# 23 4/10/2007 at 22:59 (6,218 days old) by appnut (TX)
Checkrate/Likes Well the one time I tried Electrasol and also Walmart brand, didn't get as good of results as Cascade Complete, so I went back.

Post# 202985 , Reply# 24 4/10/2007 at 23:34 (6,218 days old) by mixfinder ()
Checkrate/Likes *Cascade* I prefer Cascade. The smell of Electrasol makes me feel nauseous and it has been my experience it doesn't clean as well. Consumer Guide rated Sam's detergent a best buy. I do not have a Walmart grocery store in my area so I haven't tried the detergent. In the 70's I had a GE Mobile Maid and my dishes were spotty. It was recommended that I try Palmolive dishwasher detergent in a milk carton style box. It worked in that machine, but soon it was gone from the market place. Kelly

Post# 202988 , Reply# 25 4/10/2007 at 23:37 (6,218 days old) by westytoploader ()
Checkrate/Likes I agree with what Tom said in his first post. For some reason, I have a feeling that it's a machine-related issue and not related to the water or detergent, especially considering that both machines are around the same age. Are you sure the spray arms are turning and delivering adequate pressure?

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