Thread Number: 11719
25 years musing on washer restoration: The front loader vs the top loader. |
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Post# 209084   5/8/2007 at 21:48 (6,168 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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An open letter to the club and particularly to the Hands-on members regarding the difficulties faced when rebuilding our gems. 5/8/2007 Tonight after 3 months of diligent work I face a 1955 Bendix Combo springing leaks like a wounded battleship. I remember facing this senario 25 years ago and deciding then to give up on front loaders as too complex. At the time this decision was reached due to in large part to inexperience in our craft. Today times and experience have changed but the challenges of the front loader haven’t. Today after searching all that time I have found door boots, pump parts, pump seals, cointraps and seals. Today I am well armed with rubber! I realize my best working front loaders are the ones I have not really touched. They came to me in very good working condition and only needed electrical or cosmetic repair, nothing as serious as water flowing out underneath across the floor. So unlike all the Top loaders I have completely torn down and rebuilt from the ground up, the front loaders resist, they do not share the ease of a top loader restoration in my book. A lot of my Top loaders have run, well some now 25 years without incident. There are no front loaders in that category in my collection. These machines I am learning all over again are not the easy ones. Tonight I took a close look at the complexity. A top loader tub may have up to 4 seals in it, pump join, tub bearing & shaft, bleach dispenser, lint filter recirculation. A front loader like the Combo can have up to 12 seals, pump join, lint trap join (2), upper fill join upper condenser join, lower condenser join, heater box join (2), door boot to tub join. door boot to door join , coin trap join bearing seals. In auto mechanics there is an old saw, “if the seal ain’t leakin’ leave it alone.” However the medium of contact in autos is oil, lots of it. Seals love oil and hate water! But with washers this is often never true, since the medium of contact is hot water & caustic soda. You often find if the motor works, the tub leaks, if the tub is dry, then the motor or bearings are shot. With an average of 12 seals, by the law of averages, something has got to give there. So I write tonight with the experience that I have yet not mastered the front loader. A totally torn down and rebuilt front loader still remains just out of my reach. The first water test, there was water gushing from the heater box and the cointrap. At the second water test the repairs to the heater box held tonight beautifully, the cointrap is better but not out of the woods yet. However to repair the heater box I had to disturb 4 more seals. Tonight’s challenge: 6 leaks > 2 condenser tube leaks, 1 cointrap leak, a new drain hose leak, a new drip around the original door seal to tub and one around the door seal to door for a total of 6. It feels like I am slipping backwards. The door seal may not be a fair count as it never got tested in the first water test as the water level never rose that high because of the gushing cointrap. Does anyone have experience they would like to input here? Have you found the front loader to be actually easier? I do have one front loader that does work mostly, but that took 16 years to get up and run as John L can attest too. Again that machine had major holes in the outer tub whose repairs have held beautifully. But now oddly “mechanical solenoid death” plagues its operation. Solenoid after solenoid keeps dying and they are all buried deep inside the machine. Never seen that in a top loader. There is no top loader I have that took more than 7 months to restore. My hats are off to Greg N. & Jeff L and John E. who have entire machines or collections running from total rebuilds they did. I know Robert is still struggling with his Kenmore Combo and its rubber troubles. I conclude that over all front loaders are much harder to restore than top loaders. Beginners should not be discouraged if they are tackling a front loader and should be encouraged to tackle top loaders first. I think to tackle a front loader takes a lot of relentless determination and devotion to the machine! And this makes me a beginner all over again! Ahh, the chase is still on! Jon |
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Post# 209086 , Reply# 1   5/8/2007 at 21:50 (6,168 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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Solution: SILICONE! |
Post# 209098 , Reply# 3   5/8/2007 at 22:08 (6,168 days old) by brettsomers ()   |   | |
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pills and booze, pills and booze... |
Post# 209112 , Reply# 4   5/8/2007 at 23:26 (6,168 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)   |   | |
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Post# 209116 , Reply# 5   5/8/2007 at 23:52 (6,168 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Jon I don't know what to say. I honestly never thought you'd have thoughts such as these for any washer, top or front loaderr. But you're human. All I can say is you've got my encouragement and rooting for you in the corner of the ring!! You know how I feel about front loaders. I know you will pervail in the end!!!! Bob
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Post# 209123 , Reply# 6   5/9/2007 at 03:31 (6,168 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Jon, yes - there is a big difference between the two designs on a very fundamental level. Of course there are some TLs which have their winsome little ways; changing the belt on pre-DD whirlpools or turning a tragimatic back into a multimatic. Or my personal favorite: rollermatics. Designed expressly for housing managers who have nothing else to do. But, on a very fundamental level, TLs were built to be serviced. I've worked mainly on European FLs the last quarter century - many were already vintage when I saw them - and their problems fell into two categories. Easy: Blown motor controller board, timer, belt. Tremendously Hard: Anything involving water. Which is kinda like everything. Take the old H-Axis Bauknechts (back when they were still good machines and not the shit Whirlpool builds). If you wanted to replace the thermal sensor, you had to first take off the splash shields...two little rubber seals, each...makes (4,0). Then pull the two or three heating elements, makes (2 or 3, 6 or 7). Now you could pull the sensor...which had a double seal, makes (2,8). So 8 seals just for one little button about the size of your car's cigarette lighter. And these machines were relatively easy to work on. I don't know, but it seems to me like the engineers who designed machines after the second world war all had shares in synthetic rubber manufacturers or something... Like you, but without your abilities, I like tinkering with old machines and seeing how elegantly problems were resolved. But when I encounter stuff like you're into right now, I feel like screaming. Keep going - and keep writing. I love reading about your projects. |
Post# 209125 , Reply# 7   5/9/2007 at 06:14 (6,168 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 209138 , Reply# 9   5/9/2007 at 07:02 (6,168 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)   |   | |
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Post# 209186 , Reply# 10   5/9/2007 at 16:03 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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"Or my personal favorite: rollermatics. Designed expressly for housing managers who have nothing else to do. " Panthera: I love that, so true!! "And, of course, many of these projects are "baptism by fire" anyway. " Gyra, no truer words spoken there! "As some folks have mentioned, silicone comes in handy, however, I still prefer to track down the part if at all possible." I couldn't agree more, if you want or ever need to take the parts APART again then silicone is not the thing. I do use another product that I really like called "Pliobond" it is water proof, heat proof and stays flexible yet you can always pull the pieces apart down the road. Today I made a score at my faithful hardware heaven: I got 4 complete rolls of Buna N Rubber in different sizes which you can make all kinds of gaskets out of with Super Glue. Just cut the snake to size join the ends and BOOM you are off and running. This may turn around the Combo from the Titanic to a real washer again. Will keep you all posted. Thanks for the good words Jon |
Post# 209234 , Reply# 12   5/9/2007 at 20:18 (6,167 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 209237 , Reply# 13   5/9/2007 at 20:24 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I just made a new water spigot for the condenser tube which puts it back on track and I made a new gasket for the tube itself. all tonight! So in the am it all goes back together. Boy it must have been some awful dryer in its day as some repair knumbskull removed the factory spigot so that the condenser water wasnt' even hitting the tube but just peeing right down the center! OY! |
Post# 209245 , Reply# 14   5/9/2007 at 20:43 (6,167 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 209263 , Reply# 15   5/9/2007 at 22:30 (6,167 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 209323 , Reply# 16   5/10/2007 at 06:54 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Here is the tube installed in the machine. The Condenser tube has water sprayed down the inside as a sheet, hot dryer air is drawn up the tube and the moisture in the air is condensed out when it hits the cold water on the tube surface. In my case the BoHunk who repaired this 55 Combo installed the wrong copper spray nozzle so the water was never hitting the grove (see later pics) and sheeting down the inside. It was just peeing down the center which would have destroyed the drying ability of this machine. |
Post# 209324 , Reply# 17   5/10/2007 at 06:57 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 209325 , Reply# 18   5/10/2007 at 06:59 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 209326 , Reply# 19   5/10/2007 at 07:06 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Well when I hit the wall Monday nite and posted this thread it forced me to look in a totally new direction and I found some very helpful new tools I had not known about before. Thats why you always support your LOCAL Hardware Store , after years (25+) of doing business you get help you would never get at HomoDepot. Buna N Rubber joins hard under Krazy Glue,and springs are great tube bending tools so that you don't kink your tube!! |
Post# 209327 , Reply# 20   5/10/2007 at 07:08 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 209385 , Reply# 21   5/10/2007 at 10:22 (6,167 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Deep breaths Jon, although I have to admit I've been there many times myself. I think part of the problem here is not so much that it's a front loader, but that it’s a Combo to boot. These machines are so very complicated with double the amount of parts of a regular washer. Front loaders definitely have more places to leak and Top Loaders generally have more complicated transmissions which can make for some difficult restorations. My Whirlpool combo return hose problem has been solved once and for all by combining a part I found in Phoenix and a trip the auto parts store. |
Post# 209386 , Reply# 22   5/10/2007 at 10:41 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 209533 , Reply# 23   5/11/2007 at 09:31 (6,166 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 209534 , Reply# 24   5/11/2007 at 09:32 (6,166 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 209535 , Reply# 25   5/11/2007 at 09:33 (6,166 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 209539 , Reply# 26   5/11/2007 at 09:37 (6,166 days old) by bpetersxx (laf in on the banks of the Wabash River)   |   | |
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Post# 209541 , Reply# 27   5/11/2007 at 09:57 (6,166 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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Greg, how on earth did you come across that beautiful machine? Was it never used and new-in-crate? How much work did it need before it was running? Now I'm quite curious!!! |
Post# 209542 , Reply# 28   5/11/2007 at 09:58 (6,166 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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bpetersxx: That looks like the '58 Jon has that he adapted an English door boot to, if I remember correctly. |
Post# 209578 , Reply# 29   5/11/2007 at 15:27 (6,165 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 209582 , Reply# 30   5/11/2007 at 15:40 (6,165 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)   |   | |
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Post# 209662 , Reply# 31   5/12/2007 at 07:47 (6,165 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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BoHunk? Bojack Hunk? Well thank you very much for the condenser info. Amazingly simple! And apparently effective! I would have guessed the condensing water was somehow OUTSIDE the tube, and not directly in the same circuit as the warm air! Looks like this machine in theory could be converted to vented without much work. I'm just sayin......... Perhaps curent mannies could add an air diverter in new machines to allow for a quick and effective cool-down at the end of the dry cycle. This would eliminate that dewy end-of- cycle feel to the clothes as well. |