Thread Number: 11719
25 years musing on washer restoration: The front loader vs the top loader.
[Down to Last]

automaticwasher.org's exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items --- [As an eBay Partner, eBay may compensate automaticwasher.org if you make a purchase using any link to eBay on this page]
Post# 209084   5/8/2007 at 21:48 (6,168 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        

jetcone's profile picture
An open letter to the club and particularly to the Hands-on members regarding the difficulties faced when rebuilding our gems.

5/8/2007

Tonight after 3 months of diligent work I face a 1955 Bendix Combo springing leaks like a wounded battleship.
I remember facing this senario 25 years ago and deciding then to give up on front loaders as too complex. At the time this decision was reached due to in large part to inexperience in our craft.
Today times and experience have changed but the challenges of the front loader haven’t.

Today after searching all that time I have found door boots, pump parts, pump seals, cointraps and seals. Today I am well armed with rubber!

I realize my best working front loaders are the ones I have not really touched. They came to me in very good working condition and only needed electrical or cosmetic repair, nothing as serious as water flowing out underneath across the floor.
So unlike all the Top loaders I have completely torn down and rebuilt from the ground up, the front loaders resist, they do not share the ease of a top loader restoration in my book. A lot of my Top loaders have run, well some now 25 years without incident. There are no front loaders in that category in my collection.
These machines I am learning all over again are not the easy ones.
Tonight I took a close look at the complexity.
A top loader tub may have up to 4 seals in it,
pump join,
tub bearing & shaft,
bleach dispenser,
lint filter recirculation.
A front loader like the Combo can have up to 12 seals,
pump join,
lint trap join (2),
upper fill join
upper condenser join,
lower condenser join,
heater box join (2),
door boot to tub join.
door boot to door join ,
coin trap join
bearing seals.

In auto mechanics there is an old saw, “if the seal ain’t leakin’ leave it alone.” However the medium of contact in autos is oil, lots of it. Seals love oil and hate water!
But with washers this is often never true, since the medium of contact is hot water & caustic soda. You often find if the motor works, the tub leaks, if the tub is dry, then the motor or bearings are shot.
With an average of 12 seals, by the law of averages, something has got to give there.
So I write tonight with the experience that I have yet not mastered the front loader. A totally torn down and rebuilt front loader still remains just out of my reach.

The first water test, there was water gushing from the heater box and the cointrap.
At the second water test the repairs to the heater box held tonight beautifully, the cointrap is better but not out of the woods yet.
However to repair the heater box I had to disturb 4 more seals.

Tonight’s challenge: 6 leaks > 2 condenser tube leaks, 1 cointrap leak, a new drain hose leak, a new drip around the original door seal to tub and one around the door seal to door for a total of 6.
It feels like I am slipping backwards.
The door seal may not be a fair count as it never got tested in the first water test as the water level never rose that high because of the gushing cointrap.

Does anyone have experience they would like to input here? Have you found the front loader to be actually easier?
I do have one front loader that does work mostly, but that took 16 years to get up and run as John L can attest too.
Again that machine had major holes in the outer tub whose repairs have held beautifully. But now oddly “mechanical solenoid death” plagues its operation. Solenoid after solenoid keeps dying and they are all buried deep inside the machine. Never seen that in a top loader.
There is no top loader I have that took more than 7 months to restore.

My hats are off to Greg N. & Jeff L and John E. who have entire machines or collections running from total rebuilds they did.

I know Robert is still struggling with his Kenmore Combo and its rubber troubles.

I conclude that over all front loaders are much harder to restore than top loaders. Beginners should not be discouraged if they are tackling a front loader and should be encouraged to tackle top loaders first.
I think to tackle a front loader takes a lot of relentless determination and devotion to the machine! And this makes me a beginner all over again!

Ahh, the chase is still on!

Jon









Post# 209086 , Reply# 1   5/8/2007 at 21:50 (6,168 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Solution: SILICONE!

Post# 209092 , Reply# 2   5/8/2007 at 21:57 (6,168 days old) by tlee618 ()        

Jon, My hat is off to you and all the others that face this battle head on!! I have a feeling that this "challenge" that the front loaders deal you is one of the reason we love them so. It must be a fantastic feeling when you have restored one from the ground up and it works perfectly. One thing I know for sure is that you will soon have all the "bugs" worked out of that Bendix!!

Post# 209098 , Reply# 3   5/8/2007 at 22:08 (6,168 days old) by brettsomers ()        

pills and booze, pills and booze...

Post# 209112 , Reply# 4   5/8/2007 at 23:26 (6,168 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
Austin, I couldn't agree more! Silicone solves all my problems from leaks to... Ok so it only fixes leaks but I've been lucky enough to get machines that only leak a little! lol

Post# 209116 , Reply# 5   5/8/2007 at 23:52 (6,168 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Jon I don't know what to say. I honestly never thought you'd have thoughts such as these for any washer, top or front loaderr. But you're human. All I can say is you've got my encouragement and rooting for you in the corner of the ring!! You know how I feel about front loaders. I know you will pervail in the end!!!! Bob

Post# 209123 , Reply# 6   5/9/2007 at 03:31 (6,168 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
I think you put your finger on it

panthera's profile picture
Jon, yes - there is a big difference between the two designs on a very fundamental level.
Of course there are some TLs which have their winsome little ways; changing the belt on pre-DD whirlpools or turning a tragimatic back into a multimatic.
Or my personal favorite: rollermatics. Designed expressly for housing managers who have nothing else to do.

But, on a very fundamental level, TLs were built to be serviced.

I've worked mainly on European FLs the last quarter century - many were already vintage when I saw them - and their problems fell into two categories.
Easy: Blown motor controller board, timer, belt.
Tremendously Hard: Anything involving water. Which is kinda like everything. Take the old H-Axis Bauknechts (back when they were still good machines and not the shit Whirlpool builds). If you wanted to replace the thermal sensor, you had to first take off the splash shields...two little rubber seals, each...makes (4,0).
Then pull the two or three heating elements, makes (2 or 3, 6 or 7).
Now you could pull the sensor...which had a double seal, makes (2,8).
So 8 seals just for one little button about the size of your car's cigarette lighter.
And these machines were relatively easy to work on.
I don't know, but it seems to me like the engineers who designed machines after the second world war all had shares in synthetic rubber manufacturers or something...

Like you, but without your abilities, I like tinkering with old machines and seeing how elegantly problems were resolved. But when I encounter stuff like you're into right now, I feel like screaming.

Keep going - and keep writing. I love reading about your projects.


Post# 209125 , Reply# 7   5/9/2007 at 06:14 (6,168 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Solution: SILICONE!

toggleswitch's profile picture
A girl's, and now a GUYS's, best friend.

Post# 209136 , Reply# 8   5/9/2007 at 06:51 (6,168 days old) by gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        
Jet------

I feel the same way you do. I've done some preliminary snooping around my GE Combo, but every time I do I realize a restoration of it will be a MAJOR undertaking. It will just have to wait untill I am able to delegate a lot of time and effort to it. I find that with the complicated restorations----I have to stay focused so I don't forget how something was put together. If I let it wait a few days, sometimes I forget how something should go back together!
And, of course, many of these projects are "baptism by fire" anyway.

As some folks have mentioned, silicone comes in handy, however, I still prefer to track down the part if at all possible.

Two of my T/L restorations were VERY hard as they were in very bad shape. (A 1959 'Kenmo (used some silicone on that one!) and a 1955 Unimatic----that (big surprise) still gives me trouble.)

I will appreciate updates as you proceed and will make mental notes so I will be better prepared to tackle my GE. Thank heavens my Bendix works great----but I know the possibility of repair always looms over any of these old machines.

My memories of these old machines back in the day was that the F/L's were always much less reliable than the T/Ls of their day. I always viewed Bendix as being the best of all the old F/Ls, however,I remember a lot of people who got sick of having them repaired----and switched to a T/L.

Best wishes!


Post# 209138 , Reply# 9   5/9/2007 at 07:02 (6,168 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)        
St. Job

mayken4now's profile picture
Pray for us.



Post# 209186 , Reply# 10   5/9/2007 at 16:03 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Oh its nice to hear from everyone

jetcone's profile picture
"Or my personal favorite: rollermatics. Designed expressly for housing managers who have nothing else to do. "

Panthera: I love that, so true!!

"And, of course, many of these projects are "baptism by fire" anyway. "

Gyra, no truer words spoken there!

"As some folks have mentioned, silicone comes in handy, however, I still prefer to track down the part if at all possible."
I couldn't agree more, if you want or ever need to take the parts APART again then silicone is not the thing.

I do use another product that I really like called "Pliobond"
it is water proof, heat proof and stays flexible yet you can always pull the pieces apart down the road.

Today I made a score at my faithful hardware heaven: I got 4 complete rolls of Buna N Rubber in different sizes which you can make all kinds of gaskets out of with Super Glue. Just cut the snake to size join the ends and BOOM you are off and running.
This may turn around the Combo from the Titanic to a real washer again.

Will keep you all posted.

Thanks for the good words

Jon






Post# 209206 , Reply# 11   5/9/2007 at 19:21 (6,167 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        
im thinkin even the pro's cringed on "boot days&quo

My parents had westy spacemates long ago, even the authorized westy repair guys, would mutter under their breath, on visits to replace the boot. I was real young but i realized this was not the service guys "favorite repair" When it would first start to leak, Mom always inventive and frugal, and never much cared for strangers in our house, had a cookie sheet that she knew the exact placement under the machine to catch every drop. After a couple of months of stretching her budget, and her patience, she would cave and call westinghouse service.

Post# 209234 , Reply# 12   5/9/2007 at 20:18 (6,167 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        
New hardware store find -

gansky1's profile picture
Uh huh, all right then, quit your whining then and get back to work - I wanna see pics of that machine running!


Post# 209237 , Reply# 13   5/9/2007 at 20:24 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Yes SIR

jetcone's profile picture
I just made a new water spigot for the condenser tube which puts it back on track and I made a new gasket for the tube itself. all tonight! So in the am it all goes back together.

Boy it must have been some awful dryer in its day as some repair knumbskull removed the factory spigot so that the condenser water wasnt' even hitting the tube but just peeing right down the center! OY!



Post# 209245 , Reply# 14   5/9/2007 at 20:43 (6,167 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
I'z really gonna needs some pics to understand the condensa... pleaze, sir....

Post# 209263 , Reply# 15   5/9/2007 at 22:30 (6,167 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
I knew you would prevail over the nasty perforations!

And look at the reward you'll have - this is my very first washload in my Bendix 10/23/00. I was soooo excited to turn it on the first time!


Post# 209323 , Reply# 16   5/10/2007 at 06:54 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Toggles here is the Condenser

jetcone's profile picture
Here is the tube installed in the machine. The Condenser tube has water sprayed down the inside as a sheet, hot dryer air is drawn up the tube and the moisture in the air is condensed out when it hits the cold water on the tube surface.

In my case the BoHunk who repaired this 55 Combo installed the wrong copper spray nozzle so the water was never hitting the grove (see later pics) and sheeting down the inside. It was just peeing down the center which would have destroyed the drying ability of this machine.



Post# 209324 , Reply# 17   5/10/2007 at 06:57 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Here is the actual tube

jetcone's profile picture
It weighs a ton, is very thick steel with a heavy enamel coating on, this makes for good heat conduction to the outside.

Note the circular grove pressed in the side, it helps start the water sheeting down the inside.



Post# 209325 , Reply# 18   5/10/2007 at 06:59 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
This is where the BoHunk screwed up

jetcone's profile picture
I have had to make a new copper nozzle to replace the missing one that the Bohunk removed!

Stupid Bohunks!!


Post# 209326 , Reply# 19   5/10/2007 at 07:06 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Tools of the trade

jetcone's profile picture
Well when I hit the wall Monday nite and posted this thread it forced me to look in a totally new direction and I found some very helpful new tools I had not known about before.
Thats why you always support your LOCAL Hardware Store , after years (25+) of doing business you get help you would never get at HomoDepot.

Buna N Rubber joins hard under Krazy Glue,and springs are great tube bending tools so that you don't kink your tube!!


Post# 209327 , Reply# 20   5/10/2007 at 07:08 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Close up of the Grove

jetcone's profile picture
You need to have the water hit and ride this grove and the inside must be clean so that the water "sheets" down the inside surface. This machine was so scaled up and linted up the water would never have sheeted so I got to scrubbing with CLR another great tool in the arsenal!!



Post# 209385 , Reply# 21   5/10/2007 at 10:22 (6,167 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

unimatic1140's profile picture
Deep breaths Jon, although I have to admit I've been there many times myself. I think part of the problem here is not so much that it's a front loader, but that it’s a Combo to boot. These machines are so very complicated with double the amount of parts of a regular washer. Front loaders definitely have more places to leak and Top Loaders generally have more complicated transmissions which can make for some difficult restorations.

My Whirlpool combo return hose problem has been solved once and for all by combining a part I found in Phoenix and a trip the auto parts store.


Post# 209386 , Reply# 22   5/10/2007 at 10:41 (6,167 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Thanks Robert

jetcone's profile picture
The second water test this morining went alot better! We're almost there,now its exciting again!

Greg that door just gleams NEW! Nice money shot!



Post# 209533 , Reply# 23   5/11/2007 at 09:31 (6,166 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
It was my first front-loader ever! This is Don and Michael who help move the beast into the basement. Just look at the basement and the machines I had then.

Post# 209534 , Reply# 24   5/11/2007 at 09:32 (6,166 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
It was so minty-fresh and still smelled new! Did I mention the shipping braces were still bolted to the tub? One of my favorite parts was getting the manual out to "unpack" the machine, just like it had come from the factory.

Post# 209535 , Reply# 25   5/11/2007 at 09:33 (6,166 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
MINT!

Post# 209539 , Reply# 26   5/11/2007 at 09:37 (6,166 days old) by bpetersxx (laf in on the banks of the Wabash River)        

bpetersxx's profile picture
is this the offending washer

Post# 209541 , Reply# 27   5/11/2007 at 09:57 (6,166 days old) by westytoploader ()        
'53 Duo

Greg, how on earth did you come across that beautiful machine? Was it never used and new-in-crate? How much work did it need before it was running?

Now I'm quite curious!!!


Post# 209542 , Reply# 28   5/11/2007 at 09:58 (6,166 days old) by westytoploader ()        

bpetersxx: That looks like the '58 Jon has that he adapted an English door boot to, if I remember correctly.

Post# 209578 , Reply# 29   5/11/2007 at 15:27 (6,165 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Bpeters

jetcone's profile picture
Yes Austin is right , that 58 is a HONEY of a machine it just goes and goes. I love my 58 what a sweet machine!


The duo I am referring to is one I captured in the wilds of R.I.
last feb and it is NOT cooperating.

Oh Greg that tub is to DIE FOR!




Post# 209582 , Reply# 30   5/11/2007 at 15:40 (6,165 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        

neptunebob's profile picture
After reading all this: How are the front loaders today? Seems to me with more plastic there would not be as many seals, but after reading another thread about the He3t, I wonder if there has really been any improvement.

Post# 209662 , Reply# 31   5/12/2007 at 07:47 (6,165 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
BoHunk? Bojack Hunk?

Well thank you very much for the condenser info. Amazingly simple! And apparently effective!

I would have guessed the condensing water was somehow OUTSIDE the tube, and not directly in the same circuit as the warm air!

Looks like this machine in theory could be converted to vented without much work. I'm just sayin.........

Perhaps curent mannies could add an air diverter in new machines to allow for a quick and effective cool-down at the end of the dry cycle. This would eliminate that dewy end-of- cycle feel to the clothes as well.



Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      



Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.



                     


automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy