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Thread Number: 1213
Thermador Steam Machine |
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| Post# 56304 2/7/2005 at 16:13 (7,007 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
I bought a Thermador THD-3600 (MOL) "Steam Machine" dishwasher at a Habitat for Humanity ReStore over the weekend. It seemed an interesting change of pace from my usual KitchenAids. The motor needs some attention (sounds like a bad bearing) and the racks need some attention, but it holds water and the "steam generator" heating element does indeed produce steam. I haven't tried loading it yet, but it seems that both racks have pretty limited overhead clearance. There also doesn't seem to be much of a filtration system. Does anyone have any experience with these machines? The steam part seems fun, but I wonder how good of a machine it really is. (It isn't nearly as sturdily constructed as a Hobart KitchenAid). T. | ||
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| Post# 56310 , Reply# 2 2/7/2005 at 16:24 (7,007 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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Thanks! It seems like many parts are still available...the ones that aren't seem like the ones that one wouldn't expect to break anyway. I'm impressed that the door panel is actually black glass...with a stainless motor panel...I'm assuming to coordinate with thee the CMT ovens of the same vintage. T. | ||
Post# 56435 , Reply# 3 2/8/2005 at 12:35 (7,007 days old) by gansky1  (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Post# 56438 , Reply# 4 2/8/2005 at 12:48 (7,007 days old) by Neptuneguy27 (Baltimore,MD) |
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Attention getter So Greg, What could have possibly diverted your attention from the applicances? hehehehe ;-) Chris | ||
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Post# 56485 , Reply# 6 2/8/2005 at 20:42 (7,006 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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I had friends in Houston that had the Waste King version of this--SS interior, black glass exterior, and 4 cycles. Essentially it was like my parents' earlier waste king but with the steam cycle. I remember my friends' sounded somewhat different than my parents' when it came to the water action noise, more intense and a larger sweep. There was only one thing in our household that oculdn't fit in the top rack, a very large and tall Texas Size ice tea glass. We simply put them in the bottom rack. I'm of the old school, if it's not plastic and won't melt and will fit securely, glasses will go in the bottom. My mom would leave most of the glasses in the cabinets for the twice a year or once a year bug man spraying. And then I had to run all everyday, bar, and crystal through the dishwasher. All glass loads top & bottom.
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| Post# 56756 , Reply# 7 2/10/2005 at 09:26 (7,005 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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I ran the Thermador through the FULL STEAM cycle the other night. It steamed for about 20 minutes--well after steam was puffing out the fill flume. I imagine it wouldn't go so long if it were in a toasty kitchen instead of a frigid garage. Oddly, its thermostats are all pressed against the inner door rather than the bottom of the tank. I guess they measure steam temp rather than water temp, but...how hot has the water become by the time the inner door reaches, say, 140 degrees? I had to fix the rather unique dispenser. It had become slightly deformed from heat and time and wasn't opening. I shaved a bit of plastic off and it's fine. It's sort of like the old GE square dispenser, but its a half circle instead of a quarter circle, and it has two compartments. There is a single bimetal that triggers up to 3 times--it ratchets open one cup the first time, another cup the second time, and then triggers the rinse agent dispenser the third time. You have to be careful when you use a short wash cycle to only close the dispenser halfway, otherwise it will open the empty cup for wash and open the filled cup during the final rinse. I like the idea in that it simplifies the timer and the circuitry to just repeatedly actuate the same bimetal, but it seems to trade possible increased reliability for certain human error. Also had to fiddle with the timer--it stopped advancing right before Rinse. There was some yitka in that segment's tooth of the ratchet that advances the timer (is that called the escapement?). I carefully cleaned it out with a toothpick and it's now run 3 times around with no problems. Getting closer to actually putting dirty dishes in it... T. | ||
| Post# 57559 , Reply# 8 2/18/2005 at 00:09 (6,997 days old) by kenmore1978 () | ||
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latest so what's the latest progress report? | ||
| Post# 57602 , Reply# 9 2/18/2005 at 09:02 (6,997 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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I washed a pretty dirty load--including a skillet from making sausage gravy and food processor parts from making french bread. All had sat for about a day. I ran it on Heavy Steam Pots/Pans and all came perfectly clean. The upper bearing in the motor is very noisy--can't hear the washing action for all the motor racket. But a used motor and a new seal are on the way. Oh, and I found a date code on the motor relay: 2/85. T. | ||
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Post# 57608 , Reply# 10 2/18/2005 at 10:29 (6,997 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Great report then! Do you have a way to post pics? I found one of these Waste King Steam Machines yesterday, after yours and Mark's reviews, I can't wait to try it! It's in rough shape though, missing the bottom front panel and the lower rack is suffering from DRS (degenerative rust syndrome) and I haven't ran it yet so who knows. This is the first one I've seen in a very long time so I grabbed it because I have that Steam Machine display window for it, and I don't have enough crap piled in my garage ;-) Were you able to find parts for it? I'll have to visit my Launderall Dealer as I know they used to service them, hopefully I'll get lucky! I'll post a couple of pics of it tonight. | ||
| Post# 57611 , Reply# 11 2/18/2005 at 11:01 (6,997 days old) by agiflow () | ||
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Was Masco building products the former owner of Thermador/Waste King before Bosch bought them out? The last time i saw a report on these steam machine dw's was late 80's maybe early 90's. | ||
| Post# 57636 , Reply# 12 2/18/2005 at 15:59 (6,996 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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Repairclinic.com and appliancepartspros.com have some parts available, though the prices are on the steep side. Appliancepartspros.com has exploded diagrams as well. I didn't mention it, but I need to order new hinges for mine (still available). They are quite misshapen. I don't know if someone stood on the open door or what, but it opens about 110 degrees. I will try to take some pics soon. T. CLICK HERE TO GO TO deeptub's LINK | ||
| Post# 59705 , Reply# 13 3/10/2005 at 22:29 (6,976 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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Here it is...
I've replaced the motor in the Steam Machine. I couldn't bear to pay what places were asking for a genuine Thermador motor ($195), so I got a new GE-made D&M motor off Ebay, mounted it with some spacers to make room for the motor's external fan/slinger (which the Thermador motor didn't have) and so that the shaft would be the right length inside the pump. Had to dremel out the inside of the drain impeller so it would fit on this motor shaft. I've run it a couple times this evening and it's fairly quiet and not leaking.
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| Post# 59706 , Reply# 14 3/10/2005 at 22:37 (6,976 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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More pix
Here are more pictures. Now I have to order replacement hinges, fix some rack rust, do some cleaning and polishing, and it will be ready to go. T. CLICK HERE TO GO TO deeptub's LINK | ||
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Post# 59710 , Reply# 15 3/10/2005 at 22:52 (6,976 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 59721 , Reply# 16 3/11/2005 at 03:10 (6,976 days old) by kenmore1978 () | ||
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D & M motor adaption Very clever! | ||
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Post# 59797 , Reply# 17 3/11/2005 at 23:36 (6,975 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Post# 59801 , Reply# 18 3/11/2005 at 23:48 (6,975 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Excellent pics - these are certainly unique machines for sure and your motor repair is very creative! Have you tried a steam cycle yet? The one I found was this exact same model but mine didn't run at all. Since there was rust on the tank seams, I didn't see the point of keeping it, I'll hope for a better one down the line. Keep us posted of the progress and what you think of it's performance!
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| Post# 59902 , Reply# 20 3/13/2005 at 21:56 (6,973 days old) by cybrvanr () | ||
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Thermadore applicances were sold as OEM appliances in the Eichler homes out in California. Unique appliances for unique homes! I had never really heard much about thermatore appliances over the years. | ||
| Post# 60141 , Reply# 21 3/16/2005 at 11:35 (6,971 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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I've used the machine a few times now. It does a very good job of cleaning and is fairly quiet (the tub has some sound deadening material on it as well as a thin fiberglas blanket). The steam cycles aren't as dramatic as I would have expected. The element is not a dual wattage like the sump heater in a Hobart KitchenAid Superba. So it doesn't make the "water boiling" noises like those machines on SaniCycle. The thermador makes a sizzling noise now and then, but other kitchen noises (like a refrigerator) tend to drown it out. Open the door, though, and there's no question that it's generating steam. My only gripe is with loading. I know many people have said that there are no insurmountable obstacles to loading these machines, but there are some things that just won't fit. Half-sheet baking pans will not fit in the lower rack. If they had put the rack tracks near the top of the upper rack rather than the very bottom, the tops of the baking sheets could slide between the gap between the upper rack and the tub wall (like on KitchenAid) but they didn't. A 12" skillet will also not fit in the lower rack. The upper rack has two "fences" that can be moved around and a removable dish rack. These make the upper rack fairly flexible, but since the bottom of the rack is perfectly flat, it's difficult to get some items to tilt on an angle so their bottoms drain. So, the machine is back in the garage, waiting for its door hinges. Once they come, I will install it in place of the KA for awhile and see what I learn, but I feel like I might be too set in my KA ways for this machine. T. | ||
| Post# 60150 , Reply# 23 3/16/2005 at 13:14 (6,971 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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| Post# 60157 , Reply# 25 3/16/2005 at 14:28 (6,970 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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Yes, all of my dishwashers are guzzlers. I'm amazed at how much water my KDS-18 and especially my KDS-17A can use in such a short period of time. Practically as soon as the water valve closes, the drain valve opens. Ah well, dilution is the solution. My parents' Superba 21 is fairly stingy with water (as far as 17 year old American dishwashers go...) at 8.5 gallons on Normal. Only 4 fills and does an excellent job. I do like how speedy the old KA's are. I haven't timed it, but the Thermador seems to dawdle along for a good part of the evening. T. | ||
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Post# 60168 , Reply# 26 3/16/2005 at 17:52 (6,970 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Actually, the Waste King/Thermador tanks are not stainless steel. They are a plated sheet metal with several seams in them that tend to leak water over time and start the rusting process which if not caught and corrected, will mean certain death for the machine. The one I found already had some rust on the seam at the back of the tank and around the opening of the fill flume.
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Post# 60193 , Reply# 27 3/16/2005 at 21:07 (6,970 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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| Post# 60196 , Reply# 28 3/16/2005 at 21:19 (6,970 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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metal make believe wow, they claimed that it was stainless steel,even on the control panel | ||
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Post# 60207 , Reply# 29 3/17/2005 at 00:06 (6,970 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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SS??
I know! I was shocked when John Lefever told me this only a few weeks ago. I suppose that since many of the components are stainless steel (of which there are varying grades and types) they could get away with it. He said it was a plated steel and obviously it won't stain so... The repair record didn't sound too great either which all but shattered my hopes for a resurrection of the one I found. I always thought they were sexy looking dishwashers. | ||
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Post# 60221 , Reply# 32 3/17/2005 at 07:58 (6,970 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Dish Sauna?
I suspect that the steam cycle on these machines doesn't get much hotter than the sanitary cycle on other machines so as not to hurt the dishes and plastic items. If that is the case, wouldn't this be more like a sauna or steam room for dishes rather than an actual concentrated blast of steam that scrubs them clean? My impression always was that the steam cycle was more of a hot "soak" keeping the dishes moist and warm helping to soak & loosen the soil which is carried away by the following wash cycle. I have some TD/WK repair manuals, I'll dig them out tonight...
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| Post# 60228 , Reply# 33 3/17/2005 at 08:31 (6,970 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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Steam Bath
When the machine steams (during the main wash on Full Steam, the prewash and the main wash on Heavy Steam, and during the prewash, main wash, and final rinse on Sani Steam) the pump stops and the heating element (which they call the Steam Generator) turns on. The element is mounted rather high in the bottom of the tub (so that it is only partially submerged in the water) and is encased with an aluminum heat exchanger. The tub fills with steam (a LOT of steam--you can see it puff out the fill flume) and the machine continues this way until a thermostat mounted to the inner door panel trips. (I'm not sure what the actual temps are for the wash and sani t-stats.) It's effective, but it does make for lonnnngg cycle times. I'm disappointed to hear about the plated steel tank. Mine has some rust spots (and the seams are rusty looking as well) and I had chalked it up to the little surface rusting that even a good sink sometimes gets if not cared for properly. So it's apparently something more sinister than that, which sort of makes me rethink this whole operation. We're about to start a kitchen renovation and I thought this handsome machine might get a place in it, but now I'm not so sure. Well, we'll see. Kenmore1978: Those are good ideas for dealing with the upper rack, but I've tried tilting my cookie sheets every which way and they hit the upper washarm no matter what. I guess the answer would be to hand wash them, but so far I've tended to be of the rather severe mindset of, "If it can't go in the dishwasher, it can't come in my house." T. | ||
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Post# 60230 , Reply# 34 3/17/2005 at 08:43 (6,970 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Tom, my mom used to put a cookie sheet flat on top of the glasses and stuff in the top rack. She'd get mad when I'd managed to not prerinse the load and all the dirt would end up on the top of the cookie shee. I gingerly would put a sheet on the far side of each side of the bottom rack. I'd put these in last. Just as I was putting the bottom rack in for the last time, I'd tild them so that they'd get past the upper rack rails and then push them back once the top rack was in. I never had a prob with blocking the upper spray arm. I also did this with a 12 to 14" Lennox China platter. Bob | ||
| Post# 60248 , Reply# 35 3/17/2005 at 09:36 (6,970 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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I guess at some point I should have mentioned that my cookie sheets are actually half sheet bakers pans and are 13x18" with a 1" rim. They really won't fit in the bottom rack--it's the rim that's the culprit. If they were rimless, I think they'd be okay. And in order to lean it inward enough to clear the upper wash arm, I'd have to snip tines out of the lower rack. I have been known to put one flat above things in the upper rack, but usually I have two dirty pans, so that only solves half the problem. My master plan for the kitchen redo was to use my KDS-18 as the "everyday" machine (which it already is) and as the "pots and pans" machine when I have a dinner party. I'd planned to use my KDS-17A as the "dishes" machine when the other is full of pots. This worked out well in my head, as the KDS-18 can be loaded any-which-way and does an especially good job on pots and pans, and the KDS-17A presents no loading challenges so long as the load is all dishes/glassware. I thought the Thermador could take the place of one of those machines, to mix things up a bit, but since it doesn't accomodate pots and pans as well as the KDS-18 and, with its top rack flatness, doesn't accomodate dishes and glassware as well as the KDS-17A, it really isn't a suitable replacement for either. I think probably the best place for this Thermador would be at some future vacation cottage (dare I dream) where there wouldn't be massive cook/eat-a-thons going on all the time. Hmm. We'll see. T. | ||
| Post# 60254 , Reply# 37 3/17/2005 at 10:30 (6,970 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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I put a newer top rack in my KDS-18, so it now has the full-size upper wash arm. As far as the smaller one goes...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!? It didn't even have jets in the ends--there wasn't even an ATTEMPT to reach the corners or back of the upper rack. I do like that it has the "constant rinse" sprayer in the top of the tank. I'm not sure on what series they eliminated that, but my parents' KDS-21 doesn't have it, and sometimes the tops of things in the upper rack are gritty, especially if the rack is loaded tightly. T. | ||
| Post# 60277 , Reply# 39 3/17/2005 at 13:17 (6,970 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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Yes, Chris, there was a final, steamy rinse with all that hot water. (Welcome back to Applianceville again!) We must have had a pre-Steam model. Our WK only steamed for the last rinse on the Full Cycle and Pots 'n Pans cycle. The only difference I knew of between these two cycles was that the heating element turned off after the steam rinse on the Pots 'n Pan cycle, so as not to re-bake back on any loosened food that the steam didn't completely remove. There was no heat exchanger on the element; it was just out there raw and exposed. | ||
| Post# 60278 , Reply# 40 3/17/2005 at 13:19 (6,970 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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| Post# 60293 , Reply# 41 3/17/2005 at 15:08 (6,969 days old) by deeptub (Carbondale, IL) | ||
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Waste King-Universal, Universal Chef
Since we're discussing Thermador and Waste King, does anyone know how long Universal Chef cooking appliances were sold. My parents 1969 house and my Aunt and Uncle's 1973 house both had Universal Chef built-ins which seemed to be slightly restyled Thermador units. The nameplates on them had the Waste-King Universal shield, the word UNIVERSAL in capital letters with each letter in a box and the word Chef in 60's script. The cooktops looked like Thermador cooktops, my aunt and uncle also had a char-glo indoor grill which looked exactly like a Thermador, and the ovens were identical to thermadors inside, but their control panels had an arched top and slightly arched chrome handles on black glass doors. The data plates had the Norris Industries logo on them. I have never seen any other Universal Chef built-ins, either in person or on ebay, etc. T. | ||
| Post# 60296 , Reply# 42 3/17/2005 at 15:15 (6,969 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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stainless steel scenario Incidentaly,some comparison literature from KA back in the mid-70s admitted that Waste King/Thermador had stainless steel tubs but claimed that the different tub areas had different grades, thus claiming there would be rust. | ||
| Post# 60355 , Reply# 43 3/17/2005 at 22:41 (6,969 days old) by rchris () | ||
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Thanx for the welcome back, PeterH770! (o:`, | ||
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Post# 60371 , Reply# 44 3/17/2005 at 23:33 (6,969 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Peter, our 1968 WK did have the sani-heat (as it was called) on the final/3rd rinse. ON ours it heated for about 6 or 8 minutes and then the timer paused if the temp hadn't been reached. For the cookware cycle, that last rinse had the longest spray period of the whole cycle, that enitre 9 minutes or so. It did not pause to heat the water before spraying. And yes, the dry cycle didn't turn on the heater on Cookware for the same reasoning as you stated. Our 1959 WK, the pots/pans cycle did prewash, wash, and first rinse. Then it shut off--the manual specifically stated lefton moist soil would be easy to remove. Incidentally, Gaffers & Satler dishwashers did a similar routine for pots & pans cycle, a wash & two rinses and then shut off.
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| Post# 60401 , Reply# 45 3/18/2005 at 07:42 (6,969 days old) by kenmore1978 () | ||
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baker sheets in Thermador will they fit in the top rack face down? | ||
| Post# 61593 , Reply# 46 3/29/2005 at 13:12 (6,958 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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thru thick'n'thin,is THERMADOR in? what's the latest scoop on this great machine,and who else has one or wants one? | ||
| Post# 61611 , Reply# 47 3/29/2005 at 15:28 (6,957 days old) by veg-o-matic (Baltimore, Hon!) | ||
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