Thread Number: 12317
KitchenAid Superba stops and heats
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Post# 216592   6/17/2007 at 15:02 (6,129 days old) by tony ()        

My Energy Saver IV Superba by Hobart KitchenAid model KDS-19 stops with the Sani Heat and Rinse lights remaining on. It apparantly continues to heat, because the first time I noticed this was several hours after I began a wash cycle and the granite countertop above the washer was quite warm. When I push the Cancel Cycle button, the machine continues to cycle through to the end and then turns itself off, as normal. I noticed this again today using the Light Wash cycle, although it did not seem to occur when I used Fast Wash No Dry. Dishes still come out clean with no spots, though I am not going to leave the machine operating when I am not home because of the non-stop heat. Any ideas?





Post# 216627 , Reply# 1   6/17/2007 at 19:22 (6,129 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
KitchenAid

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My Mom had the exact same dishwasher for 25 years. It heats in the first and last rinse. No heater on during drying. Are you going to keep the machine?
Peter


Post# 216641 , Reply# 2   6/17/2007 at 22:16 (6,129 days old) by tony ()        
That's the idea

The dishwasher was in the house when I bought it 23 years ago. When I renovated in 1992, the designer thought I was nuts for not getting a new one, but it worked fine and there was no reason to replace it. If the repair is reasonable, I will keep it.

Went to Sears yesterday to see about a replacement, but even a $700 Bosch model has plastic parts, where the KitchenAid has stainless steel.


Post# 216650 , Reply# 3   6/17/2007 at 23:30 (6,129 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
KitchenAid

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Good Luck I hope it is fixable. Those KitchenAids were made like tanks. Keep us posted.
Peter


Post# 216709 , Reply# 4   6/18/2007 at 11:05 (6,128 days old) by tony ()        

It's a vexing problem. Doesn't sound like the timer, because it cycles part way. The heater obviously works. I'm hoping someone here will suggest why it might refuse to advance. Rinsing occurs and ends, but the Rinse light stays on, along with the heat and the Sani Heat light. Seems like something is stopping the machine from continuing to the drying mode.

Post# 216716 , Reply# 5   6/18/2007 at 11:37 (6,128 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

unimatic1140's profile picture
Hi Tony, I don't know those newer KitchenAid machines very well, but I believe that in order for the timer to start advancing out of the water heating stage the thermostat needs to be tripped. Have you tested the thermostat by chance, maybe it's stuck open?

Post# 216728 , Reply# 6   6/18/2007 at 13:45 (6,128 days old) by tony ()        

Haven't tested the thermostat yet, but that sounds like a good place to start. Thanks.

Post# 216833 , Reply# 7   6/18/2007 at 22:40 (6,128 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
slow to warm up to you Kitchenaid!

Tony, It would seem that the thermostat for the sani heat is not closing like it was suggested before.It interrupts the timer motor until the desired temperature is reached. If that was the case, though it would heat until it tripped the high limit and the machine would shut down.

Are you actually sure the element is working. When it heats you can hear it "sizzling" and also, it is a dual element..2 700 watt units in one. when it first heats and when it sani heats, you use 1400 watts and for the heating during the cycles it uses the 700 watt s to up the temp about 1 degree a minute.So see if you can determine if it is working. Many times a wire connecetor on the element can fall off or burn away causing it to not heat. You may have to pull the machine out to check it and sdont overlook the white neutral wires under the machine. there were many common connections where a few wires would be joined and sometimes they loosen up or one falls off. I had that happen on my curent in kitchen machine which is a KDS-18 Nothing worked except the drain valve. Pulled the machine into the garage and found the wire in about 2 minutes. I have had other wires do the same on that machine but it is nearing 30 years old! If the element isnt heating, that would make it just sit and appear to be heating.
I have the same machine and my timer blew out because the drain valve wire came loose and shorted out taking the main buss connection on the time with it, I tried finding a new timer but to no avail. Even tried Midwest timer service and the guy there was really into helpng me out but they had already tossed all their stuff out.
The machine I have is a tank but it is the whie porcelain tank and I actually added a hot air dryer assy from another Kitchen aid and you would not believe how well theat machine dries with the hot air. I like that it heats the water and cleans better than anything on the market today.

You may also find that the timer contacts for the element may have burned out or the wires are burnt in the connector block on the timer. That was a common problem due to the amperage the element would draw.It would sometimes even take out the contacts in the program switch. It would work perfect on full cycle and not on sanicycle or vice versa or only work on the longest cycle. Think about it, if you use the same settings all the time those contacts will burn out faster than a cycle button you never use.

I am thinking of parting out my machine so if you hang on to yours.. holler back at me and maybe we can salvage at least one of them.


Post# 216835 , Reply# 8   6/18/2007 at 22:42 (6,128 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
oops forgot something

Tony, for the record, the unit doesnt preheat nor sani heat the water during the fast wash and light wash cycles so that is why they went right thru. They are basically the same cycle except the no dry advances thru the dry phase completely so it seems like a really fast cycle


Post# 216857 , Reply# 9   6/18/2007 at 23:23 (6,128 days old) by tony ()        

Steve T, thanks, you've given me a lot to consider. The program switch burnout for commonly used cycles makes sense. Regarding the heating element not working: something definitely was overheating in the machine. The granite counter top was very warm-- much warmer than could be caused by hot water alone. Also, there was a burning electrical smell. On the other hand, the second time it happened, I opened the door and did not see any glow from the heating element. What else would cause excessive heat if the heating element was not working? Haven't had the time so far to open it up and look around.



Post# 216973 , Reply# 10   6/19/2007 at 17:14 (6,127 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
more to consider!

Tony, you should never see the element glowing red unless there was no water at all in the tank and it was in the heat mode.This event can cause serious damage to the element and nearby plastic pieces of the pump and filter assy.Until the 21 series machines and I mean anything less than a superba model, the element never came on during the drying period. Since your machine was the first and only complete series of models that had no heated air dry, there would be no heat at all during the dry period and you would not see any glowing of the element.
Hard to say why the counter was so hot unless the machine DID in fact keep heating the water in the tank.
Did you open the door and see water in it? If so, then it may have the stuck open heat thermostat scenario and may have been close to hitting the hi limit. However, sometimes conditions around the machine could drain off enough heat from the tank into the surrounding area, that while the water was at the sani level, it never reached the hi limit safety level.Like how much heat did that thin insulation blanket really hold in?

I know that this may sound confusing, but the downfall of this model series was the piss poor drying job it did and how it had to have all the best of conditions to retain heat in the tank to dry the dishes. It didnt take Hobart long to go back to the fan forced heated dry system on the -20 series with the no heat option button. The 19 and 20 series cycles were nearly identical with the exception of the heated dry setup.
if you can, try to see if you can tell if the element is heating when it fills.
What does it do now when you use it and was this a few isolated events? I would be interested in knowing.

If you are really handy electrically, you can remove the thermostats under the tank and test them against a 60 watt light bulb who's surface should get hot enough to trip the switch contacts inside of them. dont confuse them as one is the sani stat and one is the safety. the sani stat should "click" before the safety.
Let me know what happens. you can email me directly if you want. stakoushian@cfl.rr.com


Post# 217050 , Reply# 11   6/20/2007 at 00:50 (6,127 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
KitchenAid

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The 19 series did dry much better if you used jetdry. In the 20 series the the last rinse was not heated unless you used sani cycle. Now today so many of the european machines use no heat drying. And some say the drying is good only if you use jetdry.
Peter


Post# 217080 , Reply# 12   6/20/2007 at 05:08 (6,126 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Rarely if ever use the heated drying function on my lowly Kenmore 18" dw and have no problems with drying. Use Ecover rinse aid and when I open the machine next day, items are dry. There may be the odd wet top of a glass or item that wasn't loaded properly to drain, but that is my fault.

Only time one uses heated drying is when items are needed in a hurry (read forgot to run the dw the night before), or during very humid weather and the house is like a sauna.


Post# 217082 , Reply# 13   6/20/2007 at 06:14 (6,126 days old) by gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

I hope you are able to repair your machine because for no amount of money will you be able to find a new replacement machine as good as your KAid.

NOTHING at any price these days is leaving the factory with a quality level as high as KAID had.
AND unlike the new machines---the KAid uses water to clean the dishes----what a concept.

SteveT sounds like he knows his stuff when it comes to KAid. Thanks for the tutorial.

Best wishes!



Post# 217093 , Reply# 14   6/20/2007 at 08:25 (6,126 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
I wish KA was still KA

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They were fascinating!
As for the European machines not having a heated dry - this is not entirely true, some do.
There is another factor at hand here which the earliest US dishwashers also had to deal with. The heating element is not and has not been a loop in the bottom of the tub for many decades. It is a high efficiency flow through heater which, obviously, only heats the water and can't be used to heat the air. Some machines use forced air drying with an extra air-heating element, most - like mine - just use forced air. Seeing as how the last rinse is done at about 175-180°F, it is not hard to see why things come out dry.
And yes, European machines are built in the specific assumption that a rinse agent will be used.
Of course, some things just plain stack so that there is going to be enough water left in them at the end of the cycle that nothing will dry it.
I'd rather have the extra few inches of space in the machine, the longetivity and reliability and not have to worry about that stupid "top rack only" nonsense.


Post# 217129 , Reply# 15   6/20/2007 at 10:40 (6,126 days old) by tony ()        
Reply to Stevet

Steve, again, thanks. No, the heating element was not red when I opened the door and there was no water in the tank. All appeared normal, except for the unusually long Sani Heat - Rinse cycle and the beginning of an electrical burning smell. (Reminded me of the times as a kid I'd burn out a small resistor in one of my early home-built Ham rigs.) Nothing was melted.

I suppose it couldn't hurt to simply replace the thermostat, given its low cost, and see what happens. Early in my research, I came across a couple of pages with photos showing how to disassemble the machine, but I can't find them now. If you happen to have a link, I would much appreciate taking a look.

I have a background in electronics and a VOM I've owned for decades, but generally my experience has been that the least expensive way to fix anything is to hire someone who knows what he's doing.

Regarding the side discussion here about the machine's drying ability, I've never had a reason to complain. Dishes and glassware come out dry and spot-free using nothing more than generic dishwasher cleaner, even in my hard water. There may be a couple of drops of water left if something with an indentation is upside-down in the upper rack, but that's about it. This is definitely a machine worth saving. I took it for granted as just another kitchen appliance until I went shopping for a new one and found out how cheaply made the $1,000 units are.


Post# 219767 , Reply# 16   7/1/2007 at 03:52 (6,115 days old) by spankomatic (Ukiah,CA)        
What's burning?

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Where there is smoke there if fire! Need to find out what is smoking. Look for melted wires or parts for safety. I agree keep it as long as you can. They don't make them that good anymore. I have always liked the racks for loading on those models. They have some pretty good appliance repair guys down there in Santa Cruz.

Jim


Post# 219907 , Reply# 17   7/1/2007 at 19:43 (6,115 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Smoke and mirrors?

Tony, I have to admit that I cooked my element in my KDS19 a few months ago, prior to the timer taking a trip to the afterlife. One had nothing to do with the other but I did have a nasty odor coming from the unit for a long time. Never went back on the dishes or pots and pans.

Just for the record, it is our spare, or overload machine and is hooked up in my garage to my slop sink faucet. I turned it on and forgot to turn on the faucet so it started getting nice and toasty during the first fill's heating cycle. I got to it before the hi limit kicked it off and had to wait for the element to cool down before adding water to it. No damage was done and it worked like a charm after the incident.

If you are sure there has been no damage as far as anything being burned like wires and such as Spankomatic suggested above, What I will offer to you is the thermostats for the heaters which include the hi limit and the sani thermostat as I have to get rid of the machine and figured it would be good to part out if people need the parts since most of them are no longer available.
Let me know if you want to make a deal before I stick them on EBAY.


Post# 219912 , Reply# 18   7/1/2007 at 20:15 (6,115 days old) by jons1077 (Vancouver, Washington, USA)        
SteveT

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This is all really good information since I'll be picking up that KDS19 from Patrick in a couple of weeks. I know he said the heater fan no longer works in it and will need to be repaired or replaced. I think otherwise he said it works fine. I hope it will be a good machine for us in the new house. I certainly can't wait to have it!!!

Post# 220144 , Reply# 19   7/2/2007 at 21:51 (6,114 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
New house..classic dishwasher!

Jons.. There are a few things you should know about this series of dishwashers.
First and foremost, they were built by Hobart and were built like tanks and it weighs nearly 200 lbs so get a buddy to help you move it around and into place.

It was probably made around 1980-81.

It will probably last a good many more years and some parts are still available for it.
It used many of the same parts as the 15 thru 20 series like the washarms and the 18 thru 20 washarm supports. These are still available as well as the pump motors either from whirlpool or other parts dealers, or guys like some of us on here who cant deal with getting rid of old machines or various parts of them.
Like the blower unit..I should have a few of them hanging around if you want one. I converted mine to dry with hot air since the unit was in my garage and during the winter would not do a good job of drying with the cold garage air. What a drying machine it became.. no water at all left on the dishes and super hot to the touch.

The KDS19, in fact all the 19 series machines were the first of the energy savers that Hobart marketed where they recommended turning down the water heater thermostat to 120 degrees and have the dishwasher do the work of heating the water. Like all the machines out there today that do the same thing, it makes for a very long cycle if the incoming water isn't hot when it gets to the machine. I would strongly recommend that you insulate the hot water line from your supply source to the machine if you can and definitely wrap some additional unfaced insulation around the machine and inside the door itself to increase the efficiency of the machine. It will also help quiet it down. Just make sure to use unfaced insulation and in the door, make sure you clear the detergent dispenser and the bimetal heaters. You will see what I mean when you remove the door panel. Remember the unit has only ambient room temperature air plus the residual heat left in the dishes themselves to dry with and if the area it is located in is very cold like on an outside wall it will affect the drying performance. The insulation will help as well as using a rinse agent to sheet the water off the dishes.

You won't be disappointed with the performance of the machine and once you find a detergent that works for you, it will clean the pants off many newer units. If you need racks for it, go to Ebay and buy them there and know that any rack from the 19 thru the 23 series will fit the machine.

Send a note to Kitchenaid and ask them to send you a copy of the use and care guide if your seller doesn't have his. They should still be able to photocopy one for you.

Let me know if there is anything I can help you out with and good luck. Post some pics of it when you get it installed.


Post# 220244 , Reply# 20   7/3/2007 at 09:08 (6,113 days old) by jons1077 (Vancouver, Washington, USA)        
Steve,

jons1077's profile picture
WOW! You guys really do know your stuff! Another member (Patrick) of the club is GIVING me this dishwasher and I couldn't be more excited about it. He's going to help me check the machine over and maybe fix the drying fan that he says is no longer working. I think otherwise he said the machine works just fine. Insulation is a very good idea and I'll definetly add some when installing since it will be up next to an exterior wall of a very old house. :-)

Tony, my partner, was really wanting all new appliances and i think he liked GE stuff. I stomach kind of churned a little bit at the thought of a plastic GE. Everything has to be black too (no problem there). Luckily, this Hobart appeared and spared me from spending money on a piece of crap!!!

It will be nice to actually hear water spraying really hard again! Who cares if it's a little louder right?

Jon


Post# 220279 , Reply# 21   7/3/2007 at 11:28 (6,113 days old) by pdub (Portland, Oregon)        
Hi Jon and SteveT

pdub's profile picture
Jon,

The KD19 works like what has been described above. It seems in good shape and runs through the cycle with it's rapid advance timer and does all it's supposed to as far as I can tell. The motor is louder than what I have heard before so am not sure if this means it could fail in the future or just needs a little oiling. It may even run quieter with the machine installed and the front lower panel in place.

The only thing that doesn't work is the little fan that is supposed to blow non-heated air into the tub for drying. The squirrel cage barely turns by hand so I think the fan motor bearings are in bad shape. This is an easy replacement and if the wiring supports it, I suppose you could replace it with a heated fan. Maybe someone else can elaborate on whether any additional wiring is necessary on the heated versus the non heated fans and if the timer plays a role in telling the heater when to turn on and off.

I took the pump impeller apart from inside the machine and cleaned it out and everything seems to run well although I didn't wash any dirty dishes in it so can't give a performance report.

Anyway I'm sure you'll have fun with it and will learn a lot along the way.

Feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

Patrick


Post# 220332 , Reply# 22   7/3/2007 at 15:25 (6,113 days old) by jons1077 (Vancouver, Washington, USA)        
Thanks Patrick,

jons1077's profile picture
I think it'll be great! I actually don't use heated dry in my current dishwasher so I'm not too concerned about having heated dry in this one. I can find another drying fan for this one and swap them out I'm sure. I may try to find a replacement motor for it just in case sometime in the future it needs it. Never hurts to have parts on hand.

So...do you really have a 1-18 you need to cut loose? hehe

Jon


Post# 220341 , Reply# 23   7/3/2007 at 15:59 (6,113 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Was somone looking for a pump motor for the 18, 19 and 20 se

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Post# 220619 , Reply# 24   7/4/2007 at 12:32 (6,112 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Patrick and the heated fan..

Just for the record, I have a few of those white plastic housing blowers in a box in my garage if you cant find one and

NO... the wiring is not capable of handling a heated blower assy which uses 800 watts of power. The wiring is like number 16 or 18 which will melt under that load.

I am not saying it cannot be done as I did the conversion myself but here is what you need to do:

REMOVE THE MACHINE FROM UNDER THE COUNTER.. ITS ALOT EASIER TO DO THAT WAY!

You will need to get a blower assembly with the mounting bracket from a 23 series dishwasher as well as the diffuser assy that goes in the right back corner of the machine.This is the only machine that has the right parts that will fit myour machine. It has a smaller diameter outlet on the metal blower housing to fit the diffuser.
You remove the white diffuser and the plastic fan from the old machine but reinstall the single screw and washer that goes thru the bottom of the tank so it won't leak.

Then you mount the new diffuser,gasket and locknut assy nice and tight so it won't leak any water and then install the blower into that housing under the machine.

You will also need a 2 pole contactor with a 115/120 volt coil.
To that contactor, you will connect the old wires from the fan to the coil terminals of the contactor. Where your power wires are connected(white and black wires that go to the right front of the machine, you will bring a new white and black wire of # 14 gauge stranded wire to one side of the contactor, attaching one black wire to one pole and one white wire to the other pole of the contactor. Then run 2 wires of the same gauge to the new heated blower assy. Run a black wire o one side of the hi limit thermostat on the housing which will also power one side of the blower motor and then run a white wire to the other side of the heating coil and the other side of the blower motor.

The unit will energize the contactor and send power to the fan and heating element whenever it would have normally turned the blower on before. You WON'T be able to turn off the heated air once you do this change. But it will dry the dishes rather well. All other aspects of the cycle and thier operations will remain the same.

I know it sounds like alot of work but you may want to try it.
let me know what you decide.
Steve


Post# 220632 , Reply# 25   7/4/2007 at 13:12 (6,112 days old) by jons1077 (Vancouver, Washington, USA)        
Steve/Patrick,

jons1077's profile picture
Personally, I like the idea of just replacing the blower with one that works or repairing it. I don't use heated drying in my current dishwasher and I probably won't use it in this one. I've found, at least in my Kenmore, that the heated drying damages plastic parts such as the flatware basket, etc. However, the idea having the drying fan is very nice. So basically...having the machine function as it would normally. Would probably be easier that way too.

Steve, do you have those non-heated fans for the KDS19? If so, perhaps I could buy one from you?

Jon



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