Thread Number: 14013
Look, Ma! No arms! Bet this is a one of a kind Kitchenaid Dishwasher! 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 240407   10/4/2007 at 21:34 (6,045 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        

Here is something you probably won't see on any Kitchenaid Dishwasher anywhere else but at my house!

This is the lower washarm of my current KDS18 dishwasher. Having worked for Hobart for many years before going to work for a private commercial food service repair company, I always had privy to all the latest updates on most food service equipment including Hobart.(I am since moving to Florida, back with Hobart)
While I was at the new company, I was able to obtain a few sets of these new style washarms, strainers and washarm supports and decided to give it a try in my own dishwasher at home.
The conversion was simple and the results are great. Less noise but the dishes seem to really come out very clean.

The arm still has the same amount of water jets as the old 4way Hydrosweep arm but seems to get the job done better. When my wife isn't around to see me load the dishwasher, I guess I do a nice dirty "BOB'S Load" just to see if I can get the best of the dishwasher. I can count very,very few times that any dish was not cleaned in my machine.

I have asked Hobart tech support what,if any difference was seen in using this new style arm and nobody seemed to have an answer at the time. If I do get info I will pass it along.
Just for the record, this upgrade would fit right into any 18,19 or 20 series machine but can be costly!
I hope you like the way it looks in the picture.




Post# 240411 , Reply# 1   10/4/2007 at 21:50 (6,045 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Wow. Steve, I used to do the same thing, but when I was growing up--with the mom as you do with the wife when she's not around lol. I still got caught a few times, ugh.

Post# 240413 , Reply# 2   10/4/2007 at 21:56 (6,045 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
No Toggs, don't touch that line; don't, don't, don't.

Sorry, but I'm nto getting the full picture (adjsuts vertical and horizontal holds......)

So is that unique wash-arm a vintage one that never made it to the mainstream? Is it a commeicial one that WAS mainstream, or is it a new design now coming out?



Post# 240419 , Reply# 3   10/4/2007 at 22:43 (6,045 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
2 way hydrosweep

 peteski50's profile picture
This is realy one for the books. I never realized it was possible.
Peter

Post# 240422 , Reply# 4   10/4/2007 at 22:49 (6,045 days old) by maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
Are my eyes deceiving me?

 That looks like a modified Whirlpool wash arm, unless, it is meant as an homage to The Big Blue Wash Arm of the first home KitchenAid machines??


Thank you, Steve, for sharing the picture, it's very interesting.


Lawrence/Maytagbear

Post# 240430 , Reply# 5   10/4/2007 at 23:20 (6,045 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Quite interesting. When you say it's costly, how much and why is that?

Post# 241128 , Reply# 6   10/8/2007 at 20:15 (6,041 days old) by bobbyderegis (Boston)        

Steve:
You said the modified wash arm was quieter and cleans better. I can understand the quieter part, but why would it clean better? It seems there are less holes. It is the way they are angled? Toggles, if you make any comments, Bang-Zoom: to the moon! :-)
Bobby in Boston

Post# 241132 , Reply# 7   10/8/2007 at 20:44 (6,041 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
It would be nice to know what parts you need for this and how to order them - I'd love trying new things in a "super-kitchenaid" sort of fashion!

I once had a plastic-tub Hotpoint d/w that I modified the wash-arm and spray tower in... Interesting spray patterns and sounds from that machine. It all would have probably worked better if my metal-screening filter would have stayed in place.

Post# 241141 , Reply# 8   10/8/2007 at 21:07 (6,041 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
same number of holes

 Bobby,
The 2 armed washarm actually has one hole less than the 4 armed Hydrosweep if you count the single hole in the hub area of the hydrosweep. The newer style arm I have has 2 smaller holes in the center of the arm which would take care of the immediate hub area.

The holes line up exactly the same as if you had put the 4way holes in a line on each side of the center hub. I seem to get better results from it because it cleans the dishes in the arc with more water passing thru the arc on each rotation. More of the arc gets coverage in each pass as opposed to 1/4 to 1/2 the rack.

Can you visualize what I am getting at?

Anyway, I will fire off an email to the tech suppport guys at Hobart and see if I can get some sort of definitive answer on just how much better the washing ability is between the two arms. It was a costly change over to make and I am sure it would still have been cheaper to buy the 4 way units.

So sit tight and I will hopefully have an answer soon. I will also post pics of the two arms so you can all check them out.

Post# 241192 , Reply# 9   10/9/2007 at 04:38 (6,041 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
I don't know about the rest of you...

 chachp's profile picture
and performance aside...it just doens't look "Kitchen Aid" to me without the 4 way arm. All other dishwashers have these boring looking arms and Kitchen Aid always seemed a step above to me because of the look of that 4 way arm.

I get it that this might clean better or as well but it just doesn't look like it would to me. I have been using my KDS-17A almost exclusively lately and I really love the sounds and I love to open the door while it's running and see all that water settle down. I can only imagine what's going on in there when the door is closed.

Post# 241230 , Reply# 10   10/9/2007 at 11:20 (6,041 days old) by bobbyderegis (Boston)        

Steve,
It makes sense about the holes lining up, and with more water spray bouncing off more dish surfaces, better cleaning makes more sense as well. A close up of the arm would be appreciated.
Bobby in Boston

Post# 241367 , Reply# 11   10/9/2007 at 21:15 (6,040 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
some pics for Bobby!

 Here are some quick pics.. will take some of the washarm support and pump housing too this weekend. there are 4 to show so they will follow this one

Post# 241368 , Reply# 12   10/9/2007 at 21:16 (6,040 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
pic 2

 next

Post# 241369 , Reply# 13   10/9/2007 at 21:18 (6,040 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
hub top

 hub shot. This arm is held in place by a thumbscrew.Center shaft of the washarm support is about 5/8 inch with threads to accept the thumbscrew

Post# 241370 , Reply# 14   10/9/2007 at 21:20 (6,040 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
next

 under side of hub showing bearing assy that the arm rotates on

Post# 241371 , Reply# 15   10/9/2007 at 21:21 (6,040 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
next

 classic vs new

Post# 241404 , Reply# 16   10/9/2007 at 22:44 (6,040 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Love this stuff, it's so interesting!

Note the first pic up there apparently didn't come through...

Post# 242488 , Reply# 17   10/15/2007 at 10:45 (6,035 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

One of the things I always liked about the 4 way Hydrosweep was that with the water more spread out, smaller, lighter weight things were less likely to be knocked out of place than with the holes spaced more closely in the more linear arrangement. The holes that drive the rotation of the 4 way HDS are directed up. Are the two directional jets on this wash arm are arranged the same way? Is this the wash arm from the newer commercial machine? That macine has changed radically, but as long as the parts are available for the original wash arm, I would rather my KAs look like KAs when I open the door. I thoroughly understand the desire in many of us to soup up our appliances. I put the longer upper wash arm of the 19 series along with the bigger China Guard and different clips in my 18 as soon as I saw the feature. My poor KA gas dryer suffers through life with a 37,000 BTU* modulating flame burner that has its own Soft Heat capillary thermostat that was designed for the perforated back drum to make up for the inefficiency of that design; it is up to 165F within 5 to 10 minutes and holds there for the duration of the cycle. None of the components has died yet from heat stroke. Then there are the Maytag 50 cycle pulleys and the drain pump transplant on the Duet along with the 208 volt front surface units on the 1954 Frigidaire range, so when it comes to modifications, I can only say "whatever you can dream up and get away with."

*I wondered for years where some Baptist friends went when they talked about going to BTU.

Post# 242586 , Reply# 18   10/15/2007 at 21:17 (6,034 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Up,Up, and a bit to the side!

 Tom, the end nozzles of both wash arm designs are angled to the side somewhat perpendicular to the arms themselves for the purpose of moving the washarms in a specific direction. It is hard to see in the photos, but you will know what I mean if you look at your K/A washarms.

This design was the first version that Hobart used and has since been modified further. Most apparant is the absence of the rubber cleanout plugs on the ends of the arms. In the real world of commercial dishwashing, most users never think of cleaning the fine mesh filters, no less take the rubber plugs out and flush the washarms clean of debris.

In reality, we would get calls for dishwashers not washing properly or water coming out of the bottom of the door.
When we arrived, it was obvious that the user had no idea at all that the endpugs were missing. Nice repair..5 minutes and lots of bucks to point out the obvious! But at least it gave me the opportunity to help them with knowing how to care for their units.

The washarms Hobart uses now have been modified further by making the holes in them smaller so that there is a resultant increase in the pressure of the water jets hitting the dishes.This results in better and more active cleaning rather than simply flooding the dishes with water. This is according to my friend who heads up the Warewashing technical service dept at Hobart. He also mentioned that the newer arms do turn faster than the old 4 way Hydrosweeep arms but did not quote any specific rpms.
Even Hobart's newer commercial machines of the larger size have been redesigned with washarms with smaller nozzles in order to really scour the dishes instead of flooding them. foodstuffs are removed from the dishware better than before.
It would seem that even the newer KitchenAid machines have smaller holes in the lower washarm following the trend of smaller nozzles, more pressure.. maybe needed due to the smaller pumps they use now. But there doesn't seem to be any improvement in the plastic upper arm they use. Guess that is due for a redesign too, or maybe they should go back to the older stainless steel arm which seemsed to have better designed nozzles on it. While they are at it, they should go back to the older China Guard setup and get the washarm supply out of the way of the dishes and tall items in the lower basket..It has become way too easy to block that arm in either the K/A WP or KM machines. Someone bob-booed on that design!IMHO!
Hope that helps.. If I get lucky, I will photograph a newer arm to show the smaller nozzles on the commercial units.

Post# 243911 , Reply# 19   10/22/2007 at 08:27 (6,028 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I checked the Hobart commercial machine in John's shop and that wash arm you are showing is the one in the totally redesigned newer commercial machine. In the commercial machine, the free spinning rinse arm rides above it.

Post# 244645 , Reply# 20   10/25/2007 at 21:24 (6,024 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
To answer some of the points raised here..in no particular o

 To Tomturbomatic, there have been upgrades to the series of machines, you friend now has, check pages 16 and 18 for the washarms that Hobart has used in the LX series undercounter machines.You will see how the separate rinse arms have also changed going from a smaller version of the embossed arms to the current tubular style with tiny spray holes for the water to rinse the dishes and glasses.

I heard from my contact at Hobart tech support and he offered the reasoning that the change away from the 4 way arm was to create a more effective cleaning pattern on the dishes. the holes were made smaller which increased the pressure of the water on the dishes and washed them in a more direct pattern instead of "flooding" them with water as we know the 4way arm and the big old blue arms used to do.
The new style arm also does turn a bit faster than the 4 way but he did not offer an actual rpm number.

Interestingly, the newest machine Hobart makes, the AM-15 series single tank machine also now has washarms with smaller holes in them and the tubular rinse arms. The wash results were very much improved with the smaller wash nozzle size and cleans way better than the older arms we used to have in the previous series units. The older ones really flooded the wash chamber with torrents of water.

As far as making the change to a standard K/A unit, the kit from Hobart would be well over 200 bucks and will only fit into the 18,19,and 20 series. The decision would have to be yours, Gansky. The kit does include the washarm, the upper and lower pump housings, a new larger volume shaft seal/drain impeller and a new stainless steel filter which you may have to modify to fit your unit. Namely, remove the very bottom piece which would curl up in the sump. This would interfere with the heating element and temp sensors in the 19 and 20's. It works just like the originals and the little blue or black coarse filter remains in place. I would have to check availablility now since many of the specific parts and numbers have been changed so they may no longer offer the kit anymore.
All the individual parts would be available and if you want,I can price them out for you.


(Admittedly, I did install one in my KDC21D machine which turned it into basically a 20 series as the normal wash pump top was not usable so there wasn't that extra filtration of the water. But it still gave great results.) But that machine is back to its original state and collects dust in the garage.

The link here is for one series of machines and Hobart also has a more simplified machine which is basically the old WM5 series retooled for more strength and durability and is based on the KD 18 series but with the newer pump enhancements. I will attach that to another post.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO stevet's LINK
Post# 244648 , Reply# 21   10/25/2007 at 21:33 (6,024 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Hobart's SR24 Dishwasher

 Would make a great addition to anyone's home if you have at least 160 degree water or if the electric is cheap, add the 180 degree booster and wash your dishes in 3 minutes!

Here is the link to that unit..See pages 12 and 14 for the breakdown of the wash pump I have in my Kitchenaid.

Ironically, Hobart still uses many of the same part numbers on this new machine that they shared on the old KA units. They even used the old illustration of the Hobart designed and built motor assembly but it is now the 1/2 hp motor that Emerson builds for them.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO stevet's LINK
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