Thread Number: 1475
Micro twin-tubs 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 59410   3/8/2005 at 05:09 (6,982 days old) by designgeek ()        

(I started this thread so as to not digress the "defeating a lid switch" topic.)

Tolivac, I agree, 1600 rpm could turn my hand into "handburger" in a second. What I was thinking of was the ability to pour water through the spinner as per oldschool spin/rinse practice in the UK.

The micro-twinnies are not sale samples, they are intended for dorms, campers/RVs, apartments, etc. Controls appear to be: wash timer, normal/gentle selector, and spin timer. Water input via hose from the faucet, into a hose inlet on top (to the left of the control knobs). Water output via gravity discharge hose (if the machine sits on your kitchen counter, you just hang the hose into the sink to drain it, no pump needed).

I just posted a link for a page where these are sold. However! They are wired for UK mains current: 240 volts AC at 50 hz. USA is 120 volts AC at 60 hz, and the frequency difference (50 hz vs. 60 hz) could kill the motors (and start a fire?) even if you get a voltage converter. Also I don't think it would be possible to just buy one and see about finding new motors to install in it; most modern appliances are designed such that you can't use "generic" components.

I phoned the company at that link and they wrote back saying they'd need to have someone order a container-full before they were able to get them manufactured for USA power.

However, I also contacted Real Goods, which is the leading place for solar and off-grid stuff in the USA, and sent them pictures and contact infos, and talked to their design guy. He said it sounded very interesting. So there is a chance that Real Goods would order enough of these to get them made up for USA power.

www.realgoods.com..., look for the contact page and phone or email telling them you want one. Also phone or email the place in England, so now both sides (UK manufacturer's agent, and USA retailer) are hearing it. Where demand grows, supply goes.

And yes, even if you're not a twintub enthusiast, these things would be quite practical for taking on vacation trips, and certainly the spin function is better than having to wring clothes out by hand as is the case with every other micro-washer. Or in a dorm, same deal. No drip-dry dripping on the floor (or worse, the carpet).

I would guess that if Real Goods decides to carry these, it'll take from 6 - 9 months to get them here: manufacturer's time to build with appropriate motors, and then shipping time, and port-of-entry clearance delays. However, worth waiting for. If they produce a 12-volt-DC model for people who are using off-grid power, I can think of a close friend I'd give one as a present, since he's on a small solar system and presently has to hand-wash or go some distance to a laundromat.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO designgeek's LINK



Post# 59474 , Reply# 1   3/8/2005 at 19:00 (6,981 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Interesting-pretty neat-a real portable washer.I looked at the picture of the machine in your link-reminds me of a Hoover twin tub or an Old Easy.On the motors-at the transmitter site I am working at I am operating 50Hz motors from 60Hz power right now.One of the transmitters I am using at this time was built in Germany.It is loaded with 50Hz motors.-how it works is this-A transformer in the transmitter steps the incoming 4160V 3Ph building power to 380V 3ph.The pump and blower motors are 380V 3ph 50 hz-the motors just run faster.They even run cooler than the 50Hz power.-less losses.In the washer you would neeed to change the pulleys to compensate for the motor running faster on the 60Hz power(if its an induction motor as the ones in the transmitter)Now that would be a FAST spin!!Al in all though its not a real good idea.-in the case of the washer.I have also dealt with that problem in the case of TT motors and tape deck motors running from 50Hz or 60Hz power. The machine maker(TT or tape machine) provides the pulleys to adapt the motor speed for the frequency.This has happened -not only with that transmitter-but tape decks and turntables sent overseas for use by our agency I work for there.I had to install the proper pulleys on the motors so they would run at the right speed-imagine that for that washer-could be done.At my house I have a few "Real Goods" catalogs-they are several years old though-sort of interesting to look thru.I like in it they show rebuilt Kirbys sold for folks to use-one of the people that worked at Real Goods rebuilds them.On the lid of the spinner-I wonder if it could be possible to add a little spout or hole to pour water in it while its going with the lid shut-and even make the lid clear so you could see.

Post# 59477 , Reply# 2   3/8/2005 at 19:21 (6,981 days old) by westytoploader ()        

I've searched for twin-tubs and found hundreds of different designs under hundreds of different manufacturers all over the world. Would be neat to try each one out to see what the wash action is like.

I noticed this portable TT has the same type of wash impeller that's in the Chinese "Little Duck" transparent washer that I see on eBay.

Post# 59483 , Reply# 3   3/8/2005 at 19:31 (6,981 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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Oh man!!!! I want one!!!! I wish they were sold in the US, well, without having to change anything. They are so cute!!! And they have that awesome clear plastic so you can see it wash like a demo machine or something!!!

Post# 59486 , Reply# 4   3/8/2005 at 20:02 (6,981 days old) by westytoploader ()        

I'm really this close to planning a trip for us to Monterrey, Mexico so I can buy a Hoover compact washer down there. From what I've seen in pictures, the only thing that's changed is the exterior colors. I wouldn't be surprised if I opened the lid and saw Hoover's 6-vane side impeller!!!

They've got some really cool appliances there...too bad they're not importing any.

Here's the Koblenz website if anyone hasn't seen it yet. GREAT washers there!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO westytoploader's LINK
Post# 59488 , Reply# 5   3/8/2005 at 20:19 (6,981 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        
mini twini

 that Koblenz twin-tub looks virtually identical to the twin tub Danbys sold here.

Post# 59516 , Reply# 6   3/9/2005 at 03:47 (6,981 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
cycle difference

 Motors don't really care much about the frequency difference they just a run little bit slower or faster. Voltage obviously much more of an issue. Electronic stuff is picky about frequency since it would throw off the various frequncies in tuners, oscillators, and such.

Post# 59517 , Reply# 7   3/9/2005 at 03:52 (6,981 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
50/60 Hz

 Ironically, many systems here used to be 50 Hz, some places even had 25 Hz. One of the big utilities here (Southern California Edison) was 50 Hz until 1948. When they switched over, they set up storefronts where people could bring their appliances to be converted. In our "protectionist" way, the appliance companies lobbied Congress to make 60 Hz the standard in order to keep out foreign appliances.

Post# 59528 , Reply# 8   3/9/2005 at 08:17 (6,981 days old) by designgeek ()        

Telephone bells ring on 20 hz, I'm surprised anyone used 25 hz for AC mains power.

Tolivac, are you suggesting that I could just change out the wall plug on the UK micro-twin to a USA wall plug and the only side-effect would be that the motors ran faster? If so maybe I'll get one as a guinea-pig case.

The Koblenz twin-tub is actually pretty different from the Danby. One, Koblenz apparently uses a pulsator/impeller which might cause tangling; Danby uses a standard agitator. Two, Koblenz appears to have (though I'm not certain; even the enlarged picture is not very clear) a selector switch allowing water to be sprayed into the spinner for spin/rinse/extract function, which is a feature Danby doesn't have but many of the 1950s-60s machines did have also.

Koblenz' range really surprised me. The only one I've seen listed in USA websites and Ebay is one of their compacts, the LC4525 or one that looks a lot like it, but for much smaller loads. This is typically available for a pretty low price; though the gravity drain function could be inconvenient if you don't have a floor drain.

And Koblenz makes a wringer washer, nd various other round washers of similar type without ringer, in *colors*. And their automatics are designed with all parts serviceable via a removable *front* panel. Hmm...! They could certainly benefit from better marketing in the USA.

Back to the micro-twin: the impeller is similar to most of the micro-washer impellers in a general sense. It seems Hoover invented the impeller/pulsator about 1948 or so and used it in a range of compacts, some having wringers.

Re. the proliferation of twins out there: Yeah, hundreds; these things are still apparently highly popular in many places. The different wash systems include one wherein the impeller/pulsator apparently has fins like a pump impeller on the underside, which drive water up through channels in the corner of the washtub, where it cascades back down through the holes in the channels and back through the load. Also in many cases there are perforations in the impeller, which have something to do with trapping air into the water currents and causing it to bubble up through the water as a kind of counter-current to the downward spiral of the water itself.

It would be interesting to run a bunch of comparative tests.

Post# 59581 , Reply# 9   3/9/2005 at 20:08 (6,980 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Motors and frequency-If you have an induction motor originally designed for 60 hz power you wouldn't want to run it on 50Hz.If you do it could overheat.However-the 50Hz motors may operate on the 60Hz power and run faster.That was the case on some tape machines I dealt with.They had the 50Hz or 60Hz capstans to put on the capstan motor.Than the capstan motor would move the tape thru the transport at the proper speed.The rewind anf FF modes of the machine would be faster on 60Hz.In the case of that spinner washer-a concern would be that it could spin the extractor tub too fast.Like the tape machine you would need the approriate pulley to slow the tub speed down.All this is assuming the machine has an induction motor.I am assuming that it does since induction motors are most common in appliances.Instead of taking my suggestions-the best course of action is to contact the machine manufacturer.It would be bad to get the unit and find it burns up or "levitates" from an accesssive spin basket speed.
On the reference to the 25Hz frequency-Many electric RR locomotives used this-DC motors could run off this without rectification.The frequency was low enough that the DC motor could run from it.GG1 locomotives ran from 25Hz.Amtrack used them.Sadly they have been retired now because the 25Hz systems have been converted to 60Hz.The transformers and motors in the GG1 and other 25Hz locos can't run from it.Also the older locos had PCB filled transformers.these had to be drained when the loco was retired-even if its transformer was still good.And some of the GG1's had frame and wheel cracks making them no longer safe to operate.These could go to 100+ MPH.
50Hz power is still used in UK and europe.the transformers in the transmitters I use here that were built in Switzerland and Germany(using them right now)their transformers could run from 50 or 60 hz power.In theory the transformer would run with less loss from the 60 hz power-and since they supply rectifiers in the transmitter-less ripple filtering needed.The filters have the capacitance and reactors for 50Hz-the output of the supply is very smooth for 15Kv and 30Kv DC.Also on the induction motors-Years ago I used to have an Altec-Lansing 250W amp that came from a drive-in movie theater that powered the car speakers.I connected an audio generator to its input and an old teletype motor to the output of the amp.The motor was rated for 60Hz-It could run as low as 40Hz,but got both the amp and motor very hot(plates of the amp tubes glowed)to 120Hz-the motor was running at DOUBLE its speed(1800RPM now to 3600) and it ran with lower losses-motor ran cool along with the amp.
Again the 25Hz power systems were common with electric RR systems.Many of the RR's generated it themselves-there own powerplants-or bought power from the commercial companies and converted it to 25Hz with VERY LARGE motor-generator sets.-60Hz motor turning a 25Hz generator.This was long before solid-state conversion.

Post# 59583 , Reply# 10   3/9/2005 at 20:15 (6,980 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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This would be the matching (kind of) dryer!!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Pulsator's LINK
Post# 59606 , Reply# 11   3/9/2005 at 23:10 (6,980 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
25 Hz

 Here's the story. Very interesting

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Post# 59613 , Reply# 12   3/9/2005 at 23:36 (6,980 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        
25 Hz

 Excellent link-sums it up!The GG1's used to run into the DC area-Amtrack used them into the 70's when their ASEA or GE locomotives failed on the Metroliner-they pulled it with a Good-ol reliable GG1!With the later systems they converted to 60 hz power.The Metroliners had solid state systems and could run from 25 hz or 60 hz power.the first of their kind and could go to 125MPH. Used on trains that went between DC and New York City-gave good competition to the airlines DC-New York shuttles!The ol "Westy" GG1's made excellent backups to the newer locos!Was sad to see them go-Amtrack even painted one to celebrate the Bicentnnial in 1976.Last time I heard about them.

Post# 59624 , Reply# 13   3/10/2005 at 08:09 (6,980 days old) by cybrvanr ()        
electric trains

 Railroad power systems are pretty fascinating. One of the things I enjoy studying is the New York subway system, that was very innovative and technologically advanced for 1903. Because in 1903, there were different power systems in the city (Edison vs Westinghouse) and some neighborhoods were not even electrified yet, the subway system built and ran their own power plant up until 1959 that produced both 25hz power for the trains, and 60hz for station illumination. Today, they operate right off the rest of the power grid. The subway's power system though provided reduncency in the case of failure though. If municipal power went out, the subway system could still function.

The trains themselves ran on DC, and the 25 hz needed to be converted. At the time, the only way to rectify the AC power was with a rotary converter. In substations, Power was stepped down, and sent to the rotary converters. A huge thing that looked like a generator that spun in phase with the power, and switched the polarity at the same frequency as the AC power. 25hz was used instead of 60 at the time because it was easier to design the mechanical converters for it. The 600 volts from the substation was then distributed to the third rail, where it would run the train. There were many substations along the train routes, which were designed to be architectually similar to the homes in their occupying neighborhoods, so they would blend in.

Oddly enough, the newest subway trains actually convert the DC on the third rail back into AC within the train itself. The newest trains use PWM controllers to provide more efficiency and better speed control. The DC metrorail is 100% AC on board the trains, (not sure if third rail is AC though) and the sound of the PWM's can be heard within some of the earlier trains. New York is still DC in many of their rail cars, which date back to the sixties, but their newest ones, built by Bombardier, are all AC powered.

Check out the web site below for some totally fascinating and detailed technical informaiton from when the New York subway system was originally designed. There's also hundreds of pictures of the rail cars and stations over the years.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO cybrvanr's LINK
Post# 59642 , Reply# 14   3/10/2005 at 11:33 (6,979 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Pulsator Twinnies!!!!

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A pity that so many of the original machines and companies have now gone, I wouldnt want to use one all the time but are great fun for a trip down memory lane.

It really does depend on how you use it as to the efficiency of them, have myself done numerous tests with the front loader v twinnies and have come to the conclusion that modern FL have the edge of washing rinsing and spinning effeciency on the 1200 + machines.


Just posted some pics of Hoover Pulsator Action Machines in the clubs album, see link below...

Its interesting that the design of this small twinny is the same principle as the Rolls machines from the 60`s etc...

Take a look and let me know what you think???

p.s. The pic is from a 1960 AEG twinny

CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK
Post# 59687 , Reply# 15   3/10/2005 at 19:40 (6,979 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        
DC subway systems

 Cbybrvanr-
The DC Metro system trains now all have AC traction motors powered from Variable Frequency Drives.the AC motors are induction motors designed to operate from variable frequency power.The third rail DC power is converted to Variable frequency AC in the converter.You can hear them like on the older PWM DC trains.The older Budd train cars have been converted to Variable Frequency Drive like the newer Breda train cars.Metro purchased these cars from Breda Co in Italy.The Breda cars had the VFD AC drives.The AC motors are cheaper to maintain-no brushes to replace or communtators to dress.The AC motors are the same HP as the DC ones-150 Hp per motor.Beleive there were 4 motors per car.VFD drives are used in modern Deisel electric mainline locos now.
Will need to read the material in your link-its very good-need time to "digest" it.New York is famous for its electric train systems-they are well over 100 Years old!!Know someone who lived and worked in NYC. I lived in DC area for over 20+ years.Oh-if you are riding in the Metro-you can tell the Breda cars-have a large Breda nameplate at the front of the car.-near the ceiling.Also I have seen a paperclip laying on the floor of the car STAND UP ON END when the train was accelerating.It then fell back down when the train was "cruising" then back up again when it was braking for a stop.Figure one of the traction motor converters was under the clip-or a motro itself. The converters have reactors in them -like the motor that can generate a strong magnetic feild.while riding-be aware what you put on the floor.If it is something with a magnetic record-play media-such as a cassette,magnetic computer discs-you may not want to put those on the car floor while riding.
Also PWM cicuits are in some of the SW AM transmitters I operate-Used to derive the modulation for the final RF stage in the transmitter.Its an efficient means of modulation.So PWM can be used to modulate an AM transmitter as well as run a DC motor.the motor is running from a chopped waveform-square waves-the motor still sees it as DC.
anyway got study the material in your link-its fascinating!
I have also seen the "converter" stations that convert the commercial AC power to 3rd rail DC-750VDC for Metro-they are non-descript buildings along the Metro track routes with large transformers beside the building. The building contains the recifiers to recify the secondaries of the transformers.-then feed it to the track 3rd rail.If you ride and watch carefully-you can see the stations.One near the Vieanna subway stop.

Post# 59699 , Reply# 16   3/10/2005 at 21:58 (6,979 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Cool TTs and single-tubs Mike!! I saw a Hoover single-tub similar to the 1947 model on eBay in Canada; it was in decent shape...should have bid. I also saw a Canadian Kenmore TT (UK Hotpoint clone with the filter-flo) and I really regret not bidding on that!!

The machines in your collection that I like the most are the compact power-wringer equipped Hoovers, Rolls Rapide, and the (cute) Servis Powerglide. I saw pictures of the Powerglide washing and that was some VERY good impeller water action!

How does the Rolls Rapide water jet action work? The curved impeller also looks extremely effective and fun...

Post# 59728 , Reply# 17   3/11/2005 at 06:23 (6,979 days old) by designgeek ()        

Tolivac, interesting point about motors being operable on either frequency. I think I'm going to guinea-pig test one of these things and see what happens. If I do it, and it works, y'all will be the first to know.

Pulsator, re. matching micro-dryer: Very interesting! For folks who haven't checked the link, it's a dryer that's 19" wide x 20" high x about 12" deep, holds a load of about 3#, and runs on about 700 watts (600 watts for the heater, 100 watts for the motor). The specs in the link say it will run on 110 volts / 60 hz, so there is probably some info on the schematics for moving a wire or two internally to accomplish this, or it'll work right out of the box (with a new plug put on the wire). In any case, this would be perfect for finish-drying occasional things that take longer to dry on the indoor clothes lines. I'm thinking of ordering one.

Re. old rail & subway links: interesting details about the entire construction process too, including moving underground utilities and pinning foundations of adjacent buildings. Holy cow, try doing all of that today. We really missed our chance to have subways in most of our major cities. Damn shame. Having used the NYC subway system whenever I've visited there, it's the best urban transportation utility I've ever seen. Simple to use, fastest thing in town, inexpensive, good mix of new and vintage, goes everywhere, runs 24/7.

When riding on those electric rail systems, definitely put your laptop bag on your lap to keep it away from the ambient EM fields near the floor, else your hard drive could get corrupted.

Mike, interesting photos there. Those early Hoovers looked like the paradigm of simplicity: nothing powered except the pulsator; large numbers of those must have lasted a long while. I don't doubt that some of the modern FLs are higher-efficiency than any older technology. The overall balance of performance, cost, space requirements, and installation issues helps keep older types of machines in the market, even including some that drain by gravity such as the low-cost Koblenz (single tub, pulsator, no spin cycle if I recall correctly) that one sees on Ebay from time to time.

Post# 59764 , Reply# 18   3/11/2005 at 14:55 (6,978 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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I have a friend of the family who knows a lot about this voltage stuff and he said that there are special transformers you can buy for running a larger peice of equipment than a hairdryer or something, like a washing machine. Anyway, he said that they are probably about $100.00. What do you guys think? Would it work?

Post# 59831 , Reply# 19   3/12/2005 at 10:44 (6,978 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
A Big Bob Load!!!!....NOT......LOL....!!!!!!!

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Could resist taking the Micro Compact for a spin....

Its a fab little washer, and yes I mean little, the laundry basket is a big as it....performs well, the wash action is very strong, certainly wizzes the clothes around..

Spinner very quiet and water spun into the outer tub, then you place the pipe in a bucket or sink and away you go..

See through Tubs are great to watch the washing swirling round and the spin water hitting the side of the outer tub...

BUT....A BIG BOB LOAD WASHER IT AINT.....(Hi Appnut!!!) ....lol


Take a look and see what you think, I`ve loaded them onto my yahoo pics so you might have to log on there....

Cheers, Mike

CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK
Post# 59835 , Reply# 20   3/12/2005 at 11:03 (6,977 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Cool machine but I like the big Servis SuperTwin better!!!

Post# 59841 , Reply# 21   3/12/2005 at 12:45 (6,977 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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I want it even more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post# 59844 , Reply# 22   3/12/2005 at 13:54 (6,977 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Fascinating little machine, I wonder if it will appear overhere sometime.

Post# 59889 , Reply# 23   3/13/2005 at 16:23 (6,976 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)        
OHHH I WANT ONE!!!!

 I sound like a little kid I know.

Loved your pictures Chestermike! Thank you so much for sharing.

It really looks like fun, and its allwasy nice to see those Servis twinnies, reminds me of Nan and her Wilkins Servis twinnie :)

Post# 59892 , Reply# 24   3/13/2005 at 20:39 (6,976 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        
Motors and frequencies-pt#2.

 Designgeek:I thought of something over my weekend on the motors and frequencies-The motors in the transmitter are 3 phase-not single phase like that in a washer or appliance.The 3 ph motors don't have the starting equipment such as start windings,cap and centrifical start switch.The single phase motor could have difficulties starting on the frequency it wasn't designed for(the start cap and winding designed for 50Hz and you want to use it on 60Hz)This could be a problem since the motor has to overcome a load of some sort while starting(wash transmission or spin basket in the TT machine)The motor may not have the same start torque as intended.Something to ponder.you may want to get a cheaper machine to use as a "lab rat"
Yes,think NYC and Boston,Chicago,put in their subway or light rail in the older days when labor and equipment were less expensive.that was smart.Note in LA-they HAD a system-now trying to put another one in and it will largely duplicate the routes of their OLD one!LA needs a system more than anyone.Its being found that cities putting in a system now-the go to "light rail" electric vehicles that ride on tracks built above ground.anytime tunneling is involved-cost go Up since purchase rental of tunneling equipment is involved.Saw one of the tunnel digging machines for METRO-was pretty impressive.The had to install temporary 480V three pahse to the tunnel entrances to run it.The "spoil"(dug tunnel debris) was dumpted on the area where I built a radio station.Was interesting for the tower erection crew-they had to drill thru car sized bolders for the tower guy anchor and base footings.The station BOUGHT several sets of carbide drill cutters!

Post# 59913 , Reply# 25   3/14/2005 at 05:20 (6,976 days old) by designgeek ()        

Mike- thanks for posting those pics. Very interesting.

Question is, where's the water inlet and outlet? And if one leaves the outlet in the sink, presumably it doesn't drain until the switch is set to the drain position?

What's the thing that looks like a knob that's to the left of the main control cluster?

Also, what's the washing action? Does the pulsator spin in one direction only, or does it reverse direction periodically?

1600 RPM seems like the standard twinnie spinner speed these days. The spin tub seems like it must eject the water at the top (no side perforations), which would make it more suitable for spin/rinses (spin out, add more water to soak, spin again, repeat as needed).

Last but not least, will it wash a pair of blue jeans?


Tolivac- I figured there'd be a problem getting a 50 Hz motor to work on 60 Hz but for a while I had my hopes up about that issue. I was just about to go ahead and order one of these on the basis that I could convert it more easily and then publish the plans here or start doing the conversions for other folks here who want these.

Whoever wants to play guinea-pig, perhaps we can take up a collection to get them one of these effectively free, for the R&D. I'd be interested, anyone else?

Re. tunneling: Yeah, those machines are cool. There is also a 6' diameter version for utility tunnels. Nice to see someone else using the "e" word in its original context of civil engineering:-). BTW, spoils expand to 50% more than their bank measure, which means you can end up with a heck of a haulage issue on city streets.


Everyone: If you want one of these, email realgoods.com (use the addresses on their contact page) and let them know If they see the demand, they'll place the order from the UK including getting them working on USA mains current. Might take 9 months to get 'em here, but at least they'll be known to work here.

Post# 60010 , Reply# 26   3/15/2005 at 00:04 (6,975 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Designgeek:
If you get one of those 50Hz UK machines-maybe-just maybe the motor could be replaced with a 60hz model from Graingers.Its a thought.I wouldn't want to do it with say an expensive TOL model.I thought of using a BOL machine as a "lab rat" .
On the tunneling-Yes I could see the "spoil" hauled and spread in the worksite where the transmitter site I was building.The plant is built on all spoil,and demo waste.Cheap property-thats why the station owners bought it.AM sites require a lot of property for the towers.And the tower footings had to go thru the fill into prime land.Some holes were more than 50 ft down.Interesting to see what the drill rig brought up--One time the bit was brought up and a large peice of rebar was wrapped around it!Surpisingly the ground conductivity was pretty good there. Important for the tower ground system.I am sure the Metro Spoils were dumpted in other places as well.Just know the spoils dug up from the lines going into PG county MD were dumpted at the place I was building at.

Post# 60012 , Reply# 27   3/15/2005 at 00:12 (6,975 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
50 Hz/60 Hz

 Didn't WP and Maytag offer 50 Hz pulleys, using the same 60 Hz motor? Didn't seem to hurt those motors, and they had to start under load.

Post# 60116 , Reply# 28   3/16/2005 at 06:54 (6,974 days old) by designgeek ()        


Here's another possibility.

Mike, can you look at the rating-plate (probably on the underside of your machine) and tell us exactly what it says? Very often I've seen devices that are rated "110 / 240 VAC, 50 / 60 Hz." so we just might get lucky with this one.

Post# 60186 , Reply# 29   3/16/2005 at 20:17 (6,973 days old) by doityrselfguy ()        

Ugh! I want one of those small twin tubs...loved the pictures!! I wish there was a way to purchase internationally for home delivery.

Post# 60387 , Reply# 30   3/18/2005 at 05:46 (6,972 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Micro Twinny Rating

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Have posted a pic of the rating plate if this helps...

It certainly is a fast washer, the disc impellar spins one way then the other, gentle action is a pause in between the reverse etc...

The spin can does have perfs. you can just see the spray on the outer blue tub in one of the pics..

I fill it using a Hoover twinny pipe, quicker than the very thin flimsy pipe that comes with it and connects to the top next to the controls, (when you remove the cover)

It will drain easily into a bucket, but what a chore....

It will take one pair of jeans, but really splashes about etc...not sure you could use it as a regular washer, fine for one off camping etc..small items....bedding, fleeces, large items , I think a no no...

Glad you guys like the servis....its a very rare model..was the second produced in 1960 and is called "The AutoWash", it has 3 automatic linked heater / timer programmes which automatically heat the water and switch on to agitate for a set number of minutes...

It also has a spin timer as well, which is unheard of on most machines, very advanced for its day, defies me why Servis never kept it in production & updated it to match the Hoover & Hotpoint...which still dont have as many features...the next model in 1961 looks the same but has a wash timer, seperate heater & no spin timer..

CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK
Post# 60583 , Reply# 31   3/19/2005 at 10:22 (6,971 days old) by designgeek ()        

Aw rats, 220 vAC, 50 Hz, the implication of the latter number being "try this in the USA at your own risk, probably won't work."

So we wait for Real Goods or some such, to order enough of these things at one time, that the manufacturer will put USA 60Hz motors in them.

Understood this isn't for large items. Might be a good supplementary machine, for instance "I have to have this particular shirt clean for tomorrow" or "uh-oh, kitty poo!", or "how the heck did I get ketchup on *that*...?!" and of course for camping or somewhere you just can't bring or use a regular size washer (for example offgrid locations running on solar).

Warning: tasteless PG-17-rated humor alert for the following couple of lines!!

Heck, one of these in the White House might have saved a US President: "Monica, put that dress in the micro-twin, right now!" (That plus a box of DNA-Away powdered detergent!)

Instead of draining into a bucket, just park the machine on the kitchen counter next to the sink, and drain direct into the sink. Or use it in the bath tub or next to the shower stall, maybe atop a suitably wide milk crate if needed. Where there's a guy named Will, his partner Way isn't far behind:-).

Mike, I agree, that Servis machine was a few of decades ahead of its times. Machines that heat their water were rare in the USA any time, and only now we're starting to see that feature on some of the more advanced automatics, typically front loaders. Spin timers are now standard on new (Asian-made) twinnies, just a simple clockwork timer so it surprises me this feature didn't catch on sooner. Having a timer is very useful, i.e. lets one get about other biz whilst spinning-out, e.g. hanging up the previous load on the clotheslines.

Post# 61529 , Reply# 32   3/28/2005 at 19:39 (6,961 days old) by bpetersxx (laf in on the banks of the Wabash River)        
A new way to twin tub

 bpetersxx's profile picture
I tried my haier washers that I got a short time ago as a twin tub setup.

I started one load in the electronic haier then drained the water out into my pulsator haier model.

Then started a second load in the pulsator haier model while the first load finished in the electronic haier

This way I get a twin tub washer like a regular twin tub but can configure them how I want to wash today.

I can use any of my haier washers in any configuration that works best for the task.

Post# 61571 , Reply# 33   3/29/2005 at 09:29 (6,961 days old) by designgeek ()        


*That* is a clever idea. Two portable automatic top-loaders in tandem, use each for the task it does best.

This suggests all kinds of possibilities with similar configurations. Wash in one, rinse in the other, and each one spins out at the end of its cycle.

Or a Maytag or similar wringer machine, with a separate highspeed centrifuge such as Spin-X. Through the wringer and into the SpinX for a shorter spin cycle than otherwise possible.

For those who think this is more trouble than simply running each load through one machine, with both running simultaneously, the above configurations still save time because a load can be in motion in one machine whilst the other is being drained or filled.

Speaking of high-speed spin: this weekend my sheets came out of the spinner (1600 rpm) so dry that they only needed three hours (!) to hang to bone-dry on the indoor clothes line. When summer comes it will be interesting to see how little time is needed.

Post# 61688 , Reply# 34   3/30/2005 at 06:47 (6,960 days old) by kirk280980 ()        

Wow, that micro twin tub looks like it could be a lot of fun! Bigger than I thought it would be, too; having spotted it on eBay previously, the seller's pics made it look tiny.

Regarding the availability of twin tubs, since production stopped here in the UK people are snapping up secondhand machines quicker than ever. Now you can easily find brand new imported Asian machines on eBay, albeit from unknown manufacturers. It wouldn't surprise me if companies such as LG and Samsung eventually got in on the act too, in an effort to exploit the gap in the market left by Hoover and Hotpoint, as they are already making twin tubs for sale in other countries.

Used a Hitachi twin tub a couple of weeks ago while on holiday in Australia, and it was quite an experience. Similar in some ways to using a British twin tub, yet also completely different at the same time. Had to learn the ropes as I went along, but once I had it all figured out the whole process was very quick and rather enjoyable!

Post# 61704 , Reply# 35   3/30/2005 at 10:08 (6,960 days old) by designgeek ()        

LG makes a wide range of TTs in Asia; I think Samsung has a few also. These will probably find their way into the UK market, and hopefully into the USA market as well.

re. Hitachi: Hmm, interesting!, what were the differences?

re. the Micro:

Don't I wish those were made for 60-hz mains power! It would be nice if someone here were brave enough to try it, using only a transformer to turn the 120 volts into 240 volts or whatever it is they run on in the UK. Maybe someone who would still keep the machine as a museum piece even if it turned out to not work on USA power? Or someone who could retrofit 60-hz 120vAC motors?

Anyone up for a guinea-pig run with one of these?

I'm vaguely interested in guinea-pigging the micro dryer, so we could each report back on results.

Post# 61722 , Reply# 36   3/30/2005 at 15:28 (6,959 days old) by kirk280980 ()        

Designgeek,

The most obvious difference between the Hitachi and British-style twin tubs was the lack of automatic rinse in the spinner. Instead, the Hitachi uses an overflow rinse, whereby cold water is fed continuously into the washtub during pulsation. Excess water would then overflow through an opening near the top of the tub, along with the suds and suspended soil, and be pumped away through the outlet hose.

Wash action was the other main difference, using the standard Asian setup of a reversing pulsator at the bottom of the tub rather than an agitator. At first I didn't expect great things, assuming the clothes would float on top of the water with little action, but they actually got quite a good workout.

Spin speed was slower too, 1800 rpm if I remember correctly. UK twin tubs could reach speeds of up to 3100 rpm, so the difference was noticeable.

All in all, very efficient and great fun, but I think for me the novelty would soon wear off... I've been spoiled by automatics, and would miss their convenience.

Post# 61782 , Reply# 37   3/30/2005 at 21:44 (6,959 days old) by Yaktx ()        
60 vs. 50 Hz

 Hi. I'm Eric. I've been lurking for awhile. I came looking for info on Bendix washers (had thought they only made brakes), but I can't stay away.

Here are some crazy ideas:

50 Hz induction motors can run on 60 Hz but not vice-versa. A motor running on a lower frequency than its design will draw proportionately higher current, as the frequency determines the rotation speed. Lower speeds mean higher flux. A 60 Hz motor running on 50 Hz will draw about 17% more current than it does at 60 Hz, IIRC. It will run fine for awhile, but eventually it will burn out. Running a motor on a higher frequency does not lead to this problem. I hooked up numerous European motors to 60 Hz when I was in industry. They needed transformers to supply the 380-415 voltage, but that was it.

(I wish I could find the link to the essay on this subject written by an engineer who lives in Barbados, or somewhere else in the Caribbean that has 120V 50 Hz.)

The real issue is what happens when the tub is driven at a higher RPM than its design. I don't know the design RPM, but it will turn about 20% faster on 60 Hz. Is that safe? I don't know. Probably safer than running a grinding wheel above its rated speed!

Any induction motor can be run on a different frequency if the voltage is changed to compensate. I remember seeing a nameplate for a refrigerator (sorry, don't remember the make or the vintage) which said 120 volts 60 cycles/ 100 volts 50 cycles. Voltage can be raised or lowered incrementally if you have a variac. Keep in mind, you will need one rated at least 1 kW; more, if this appliance contains heaters and all the goodies European washers have that ours don't.

If you are up for spending some serious cash, and don't mind a little tinkering, there are always variable frequency drives. Yes, they're expensive, but nowadays they are common enough that you can probably find a used one on eBay for less than you think. They are not without maintenance problems, though, and most of them are built for 3-phase. Also, I don't know what they do to the washer controls. Presumably, this thing is so low end that it is all electromechanical, so frequency would affect the control.

I found the link! www.henkpasman.com/... Curacao, not Barbados.

Oh, and maybe I'm wrong about using 50 Hz motors on 60 Hz. Mr. Pasman says I need to use a transformer, and step up the voltage to 180 (make that 360, since it is a 240V motor). Look for variacs on eBay! (And you might want to bolt it down like an old Bendix!)

Seriously, I'm not sure any of this is a good idea. 360 volts on a transformer designed for 240? Or an appliance designed for 240? And most 120V variacs I've seen only go up to 140. Fun exercise, though, thinking about how you could do this if you were crazy enough!

I'd wait for Real Goods to import this in a 120V 60Hz version.

Post# 61783 , Reply# 38   3/30/2005 at 21:59 (6,959 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Don't know much about this, but do know 3000 is about the safe level to pull with a step up transformer in the United States. Higher than that and one really should hardwire the transformer into the electrical system.

Case in point my Pfaff ironer runs 220/240 at 50hz according to the plate, with total watts of 3100. Heater alone pulls about 2000, the steam boiler and pump 1,100. Ironer works fine on a step up transformer (convertering 120v to 220), and heats evenly up to "high" max power. If I start the steam boiler while using the high heat setting, the transformer's circut breaker will trip, and or the fuse. In one case the entire transformer fried. Was warned never to exceed max voltage even by a little, and it is better to oversize a transformer than under. In other words I could use a 4000 or 5000 watt transformer and run both steam and heat with no problems, but pulling that much power really requires hard wiring.

IIRC our electrican told us most homes in the United States have outlets whose wiring only allows up to about 3000 watts. Over that and one runs the risk of burning down the house as the wiring simply gets too hot handling such a load.

Usually it is not the motor on washing machines that is bothered by going from 50hz to 60hz but the electronics. You'll notice most home computers can be switched to run on either 50hz or 60hz depending upon what country they are sold/used in. Washing machines do not have this. True the motor will run faster, as probably the timer.

Someone over on THS was running his AEG washers in the States on a transformer with 60hz, with no problems. Cycles just ran a bit faster,but AEG Canada provided him with a chart showing the adjustments for faster cycle times.

Launderess

Post# 61785 , Reply# 39   3/30/2005 at 22:13 (6,959 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
3000 watts

 Laundress, you might wantt to go ahead and install a 220 volt 30 amp dryer-type outlet for that ironer. Or, you might get away with a 220 volt 20 amp outlet (some room A/C units use this, the outlet has 2 horizontal slots and the ground hole instead of the 2 vertical slots or 1 vertical and one horizontal or T-shaped slot and ground hole 110 volt 15 and 20 amp outlets have)

Post# 61786 , Reply# 40   3/30/2005 at 22:24 (6,959 days old) by Yaktx ()        
circuit capacity

 "IIRC our electrican told us most homes in the United States have outlets whose wiring only allows up to about 3000 watts. Over that and one runs the risk of burning down the house as the wiring simply gets too hot handling such a load."

Less than 3000. 2400 tops for a kitchen or laundry circuit, and in some areas, not more than 1800 watts for outlets elsewhere in the house. I definitely wouldn't connect a step-up transformer to a 120 volt circuit for this much load!

It is much cheaper and safer to install a properly-rated 240V circuit. If you have an electric dryer, you have a circuit that is rated for 7200 watts, or 5760 for continuous use of 3 hours or more. This requires #10 wire. If you have an electric range, it may be on a circuit that is rated for 12,000 watts, or 9600 continuously. This requires #6 wire. Compare this to the much smaller #12 or #14 wire in most household circuits!

I'm not familiar with ironers. The heater and steam boiler are resistive loads which are unaffected by frequency. If the pump is a small one, it may be rated 50/60 Hz.

Is this AEG washer rated 50 Hz only? I'd be interested to know how long it has been running on 60 Hz. I suspect it is less of a problem than the other way around. Also, if it is not running in a hot place, might not kill it.


Post# 61787 , Reply# 41   3/30/2005 at 22:30 (6,959 days old) by Yaktx ()        
Here's another silly idea!

 www.interpower.com/pcc/pipslist.h...

Too bad it's only rated 1250 VA, but that's enough for this washer.

The price list on this site is virtually indecipherable. I'm pretty sure I don't want to know how much this puppy costs anyway.

Post# 61799 , Reply# 42   3/30/2005 at 23:09 (6,959 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Another Texan! Welcome to the group!

Post# 61840 , Reply# 43   3/31/2005 at 08:04 (6,959 days old) by designgeek ()        


Hmm, I guess I won't be messing around with power conversions...

Kirk, interesting infos; your comparisons are a good summary of the differences between the UK machines and the Asian ones. Folks in the UK typically use the auto-rinse/spin function, and I think it's related to the higher spin speeds.

I wonder what the power consumption is, for those 3100-rpm spinners, i.e. how many watts the motor draws. Power consumption on my Danby (Asian-made, 1600-rpm spin) is 100 watts, and the loads come out sufficiently dry that they'll hang-dry on an indoor line in about six hours (overnight when it's cold).

I'm also wondering about comparative water usage for the UK spin/rinse vs. the Asian flow-through rinse in the washtub. The flow-through rinse requires a full washtub, about 15 gallons, but once the rinsewater is going through clean (i.e. without visible suds), it can be used for the subsequent wash load. BTW, don't try the spin/rinse routine in a machine that doesn't have controls set up for it; that means it's not designed for it. I tried it and the motor didn't like it one bit, which got me back to my "soak in minimal water in the washtub, spin out, repeat" routine.

Curiosity is contagious; looks like I'm going to be experimenting some more here over the weekend:-)


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