Thread Number: 15341
HE toploader suggestions?
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Post# 258488   1/7/2008 at 21:11 (5,924 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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My best friend's good old Helical Maytag has sadly finally given up! It was a hard farm worker that raised many kids and even kept washing until the last (my best friend) was a senior in high school! It seems that the bearings are going, the suds diverter valve leaks tremendously, and the machine has some overflowing problems! Naturally, they came to me asking what they should buy on a somewhat tight budget. They have some rather extreme requirements however. Their house is a little over 125 years old and the sewage system consists of an underground water closet that cannot take very much water at a time. When they washed with their Maytag, they used the Suds Saver function for EVERY load, they used a tub of water to wash for a whole day starting with the whites and finishing with the muddy jeans! Because of their water closet system, they cannot dump large amounts of water down the drain at a time, even with the suds saver function, they'd have to wait 20 minutes between loads so that the water closet could cath up! They have 4 requirements:
1) low water usage
2) top load (her mom has some serious knee problems and she doesnt want the washer to be up high)
3) price
4) capacity

Naturally, these are very common requirements, but the water usage needs to be kept to a very strict minimum. Of the current HE toploaders, which has the highest quality while using the LEAST amount of water possible? I personally fear that even if the washer they get uses 1/2 or 1/3 the amount of water that their Mayatg did, it still might overload their water system simply due to the increase in capacity.

I read somewhere that their have been some chnages in the way the GE Harmony washes such as slower agitation... Is this true?

I'm also thinking the Whirlpool Cabrio is a possibility simply because I can get a pretty good deal one, but doesn't this machine have cycles in which it fills up completely?

I know a lot of these machines offer options to avoid a regular deep rinse such as simply spray rinsing or saturating the clothes then spinning and repeating. However, they are die hard liquid Downy users and will not use dryer sheets!


Thanks for any help!!!





Post# 258494 , Reply# 1   1/7/2008 at 21:19 (5,924 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Wow! Sounds like water usage and accessibility are the two main concerns. I say get a front-loader with an "excellent" water usage rating in Consumer Reports and put it on a pedestal for loading without much stooping.

None of the HE top-loaders use as little water as some of the newest front-loaders.


Post# 258496 , Reply# 2   1/7/2008 at 21:23 (5,924 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
I had recently seen a T/L GE (perhaps a hydro-wave) with an "Energy Star" label.

So I immediately thought- SPRAY RINSES ONLY. YUP!!!!

There is a SOFTENER cycle with a full rinse option, and another option with TWO deep rinses.

BUT TO GET THE ENERGY-STAR LABEL, NO DEEP RINSE ON THE REGULAR CYCLE!

Why won't the woman consider a front-loader on a pedestal?
There is a frigidaire front-loader that is around $650. Only two rinses (At least on the one with a radio-dial-look jog-dial and a low water level. It may work, if she can get past the top loading requirement.



Post# 258500 , Reply# 3   1/7/2008 at 21:37 (5,924 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
She's been asking me for years what to buy and I keep suggesting frontload washers but she wont have it! She's hell bent on getting a toploader and a high efficiency toploader at that now that she has seen commercials for them! Besides that, I'm pretty sure she fears the FL machine will leak at the door seal per her daughter's experience with laundromat machines sadly... I'll do my best, but in the meantime if I can't convince her, I'm guessing the Cabrio is the likely choice unless I can find a deal on an Aquasmart...

Post# 258527 , Reply# 4   1/7/2008 at 23:15 (5,924 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Jamie, you know I have some physical challenges. Write me at the email address in my profile if ya'd like. I'd like to understand your friend's mom's knee problem. Despite everything, I still enjoy my front loader. My Frigidaire came on a pedestal, Steve 1/18 found this one with the pedestal on it alredy. I have to admit, I like it much betterr than if it were on the floor. I now wish my Maytag Dependable Care dryer was raised some. I find it more challenging to get stuff out of the dryer now than the washer. But, there are times for me even dealing with the waher on it's pedestal is a bit much, particularly if I'm really tired. I simply sit on a stool that puts me about level with the waher opening and load & unload it tht way. Bob

Post# 258528 , Reply# 5   1/7/2008 at 23:17 (5,924 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I still think a front loader will perform much better than a high-efficiency top loader, particularly one which simply does spray rinses to rinse the load.

Post# 258568 , Reply# 6   1/8/2008 at 06:52 (5,924 days old) by gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

F/L's on pedestals are one answer the other is to find a great "vintage" Maytag T/L somewhere (like E-Bay or this website!), and run the damn drain house outside into the backyard like the country folks used to do. Not difficult!
I'm supprised they have tolerated the drain closet situation as long as they have!


Post# 258625 , Reply# 7   1/8/2008 at 12:16 (5,924 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

laundromat's profile picture
I would recomend the new Amana set (NFV7200TW)and (NED7200TW)The washer is huge in capacity but uses very little water and energy.The Home Depot has them for $599/washer and $549 /electric dryer.The washer is huge(3.8 cu ft) and the dryer is too (7.0 cu ft)They have the risers/drawers available to raise the unit up 15 inches.and free delivery/haul away.If you want to see them you can go to H.D's website(homedepot.com) or Amana's website(amana.com)go to washer dryer and they have pictures of them as well as dementions.

Post# 258674 , Reply# 8   1/8/2008 at 17:14 (5,923 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

Suggestions:

1. Get a front loader, the person with the knee problem is probably worrying about nothing. So many top loader owners won't have a front loader because of fears about problems with bending/squatting/stooping, then somehow they end up with a front loader and they are converted and would never change back. Surely there are retailers in the area who will allow the machine to be returned within a certain time if there is a (real rather than imaginary) problem?

2. Get a front loader and another member of the family can load and unload it. If Mom has a physical problem, why can't your friend do the washing?

3. Fix up the Maytag. Bearings and diverters are replaceable items. If this machine is a faithful performer, and does what they want of it, repair it.

4. If they really want a water hog, then upgrade the plumbing. How hard could it be?

5. A temporary idea to help use a water hog - put a trough or barrel in next to the washer. It should be large enough to hold a full cycle's use of water. (wash and rinses.) The trough or barrel should have an outlet at the bottom with an adjustable tap. Adjust the tap so the water comes out nice and slow, and drains into a low level drain such as a floor waste, or tees into the existing drain pipe below floor level.

I suggest you "push" them to a front loader. They know you are knowledgeable about washing machines, that's why they asked you. Tell them, "you asked for my advice, my advice is you get a front loader."

If you want to do deep rinses, then being a "HE" machine will make little or no diference compared to any top loader. The "HE" only relates to the spray rinse cycle. They need to understand that fact. The ONLY way to get a washing machine that rinses thoroughly in a reasonable amount of water and can use liquid softener, but only uses a small overall amount of water, is to get a front loader.

Good luck.

Chris.


Post# 258678 , Reply# 9   1/8/2008 at 17:53 (5,923 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
I agree that a FL machine is the best option if water use is an issue. However, I'd wager that even the most expensive new FL machine on the market will likely require more service and maintenance than their Maytag ever did and still won't likely last as long. That's just the nature of new "durable" goods these days. Your friends need to understand this going into their purchase, as the water closet issue is one they can control for free, unlike a component of a complex FL machine failing.

Post# 258682 , Reply# 10   1/8/2008 at 18:09 (5,923 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
I'll do my best to push them in the FL direction, my friend told me today that her aunt is raving about her new Whirlpool Duet steam washer. I'm thinkin that it might be worth it to advise them to go the extra 300 for the big Miele washer if they are gonna go in the direction of a Duet Steam...

Post# 258756 , Reply# 11   1/9/2008 at 03:26 (5,923 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)        
Why not consider a twin-tub?

twinniefan's profile picture
Hi Jamie,
Would your friends consider a twin-tub?,as it would help onsiderably with water saving as her mom could just spin the wash water back into the washtub and even if she didn't she would only be spinning a small amount of water out each load anyway,which would not overload the plumbing and when finished they could just drain the washtub gradually. i.e. empty some out wait awhile and empty out some more until finished.
Hope this helps you.
Steve.


Post# 258768 , Reply# 12   1/9/2008 at 06:18 (5,923 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

So, what is the problem with HE top loaders?

Post# 258769 , Reply# 13   1/9/2008 at 06:30 (5,923 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Some simply spray-rinse instead of a deep rinse. Some say effectivenesss of such spray-rinse is questionable.

Post# 258809 , Reply# 14   1/9/2008 at 11:24 (5,923 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
Is there such a thing as a twin tub available in the U.S.? I've never seen one on display.

Post# 258852 , Reply# 15   1/9/2008 at 14:50 (5,922 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
I highly doubt they'd go for a twin tub machine, they simply just dont have time! For the past couple weeks they've been going to the laundromat since the Maytag is dead and they end up using 8 or 9 triple load Milnors(35lb capacity per washer) And that's going once a week! Both of my best friend's parents work dawn to dusk on the farm and my friend simply doesnt have time either! They need to be able to throw a load in and come back in an hour to transfer. Besides, I have yet to see a twin tub in the US that rivals capacity of any automatic washer here...

Post# 258865 , Reply# 16   1/9/2008 at 16:05 (5,922 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
Sounds to me like they have needed something with FAR larger capacity than the Maytag for quite a long time. The biggest, most reliable FL machine they can afford seems to be the best solution.

Post# 258883 , Reply# 17   1/9/2008 at 17:49 (5,922 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
Hi Toggles!

Some time ago (a very long time actually), I read somewhere that spray rinses were considered the most effective and efficient way to rinse. Don't remember where I got this info from, but I am definitely not making this up. At least with a Cabrio, Aquasmart or Oasis, one can choose between a traditional full-immersion wash & rinse or the water-miser way.

I don't see much of a difference between a spray rinse in a HE top loader and the water-miser rinses one gets in modern front loaders. Front loaders put in just enough water to saturate the clothes, tumble them about a little and spin them out. In essence it isn't all that different to a spray rinse. Here in Australia rinse performance of very water efficient front loaders doesn't rate all that well against models that use more water.

Cheers

Rapunzel


Post# 258890 , Reply# 18   1/9/2008 at 18:13 (5,922 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
Just some food for thought

I am sure Pulsator's friends appreciate all the good advice given here. Though, we all know how 'good advice' works - especially when it is free. Now, may be I am missing something, but I understand that they specifically want a top loader. So, in a way, that leads me to ask who actually is meant to benefit from all this good advice? Is it Pulsator's friends, whom he has yet to convince to change their choice? Or is it our sensibilities, because we believe that they would be better off buying something that we approve of?

Do any of the people here, providing views, actually own or have extensive experience with using high efficiency top loaders? I am asking, because the overall performance of HE top loaders is generally rated quite highly and there are numerous personal reviews available on the internet from people who own them. Maybe, from Pulsator's friend's perspective, the performance and features of an HE top loader is exactly what they are looking for. Even though we may think that they don't quite meet with our very high standards.

The final thought I wish to offer to you is that many a good friendship has been soured by apparently 'good and well-meaning advice.'

Cheers

Rapunzel


Post# 258919 , Reply# 19   1/9/2008 at 20:15 (5,922 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Spray Rinsing

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Can be just as effective as "deep" rinses, if carried out properly. While the operation is manual, using my Hoover TT "spin rinse" am here to tell you after a series of rinses items are truly well rinsed. I know this because on the odd time I put items back into the wash tub with fresh cold water for a deep rinse, the water is clear, even after several minutes of items being thrashed though the water by the Hoover's impeller.

The commercial twin tub, made and sold by a divison of Alliance laundry does nothing by spray rinses, and gives good results as well.

Now then, now then, now then.. what helps with this sort of rinsing is to use the proper amounts of good detergent designed to rinse clean. Too much of a sudsy product like Tide, is bound to cause problems. Fabric softeners by the way, aren't such a huge deal as one might think, given the huge numbers of dryer sheets consumed in North America, it seems people got tired of waiting for the rinse cycle long ago.

As for water saving with a twin tub, that really only comes into play if one reuses wash water, something likely to illict an "ewwwwwwww" from many of today's appliance users.

L.


Post# 258930 , Reply# 20   1/9/2008 at 21:10 (5,922 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Foam party!

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~Can be just as effective as "deep" rinses, if carried out properly

..........and "IF" is the biggest word in he English language!

I personally would love to see some spray rinses in front-loaders, but from what I have heard the construction of same differs from T/L-ers and spray rinses may atually stir up foam that is outside the cylinder.


Post# 258933 , Reply# 21   1/9/2008 at 21:30 (5,922 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
See Laundress...

...it all comes down to semantics. You should have used 'when' instead of 'if'.

Cheers



Post# 258944 , Reply# 22   1/9/2008 at 22:26 (5,922 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Anyonone's singular experience with one type of machine

toggleswitch's profile picture
Q: If spray rinses are jsut as good as deep rinses why wasn't this method used decades ago?

A: There are limitations as to HOW and WHEN spray rinses are just as effective. Overall maybe not as effective, or desirable.

I'm thinking that it is jsut not possible to saturate every squre inch of clothing with a spray rinse. In a spinning tub segments are folded and doubled over themselves.


Post# 258945 , Reply# 23   1/9/2008 at 22:39 (5,922 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Well spray rinses wouldn't work that well with soap as the primary detergent for one thing. Unless soap was well mixed with wash water before laundry added, globs of the stuff would stick to fabric and get caught up in folds.

For spray rinses to be a true replacement for deep rinses, several factors must be taken into account:

First tub must slow down enough for water to actually penetrate laundry, rather than merely get bounced off wash that is being whizzed too fast.

The above means the washer is going to need a pretty powerful motor to handle spinning several heavy wet rinse/spin cycles without over heating.

Water must be directed towards laundry at proper angles and in proper form. The aforementioned Unimac twin tubs use a diffuser from a center post (not unlike the old Easy Twin Tubs, no?), to spray laundry with a mist of water, which penetrates laundry faster and better, allowing for saturation.

Not withstanding all of the above, some items/loads are best handled with a traditional rinse cycle. If find while most wash loads of mixed items or single items like lightweight bed sheets are fine for spray rinse in the Hoover, heavy items like a duvet cover are best rinsed in the tub. Of course the hold housewife trick was to rearranged large heavy items after several spray rinses, then do several more.

Would certianly use normal rinses where chlorine bleach was used as well.

With today's technology, adding some sort of water sensor to washing machines,to watch for a clean rinse would eliminate the guess work out of spray rinses. Machine could simply be programmed to rinse until a desired turbidity/clarity level of water was achieved.

L.


Post# 258957 , Reply# 24   1/10/2008 at 00:41 (5,922 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
When you wash your hair, which is better: a spray rinse (as in the shower), or a single deep rinse in the bathtub?



Post# 258998 , Reply# 25   1/10/2008 at 07:50 (5,922 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

-Jamie said they were dedicated users of Downy and would not consider using dryer sheets. That is why spin rinses are not suitable. You cannot use spin rinses with softener. Spin rinsing may be quite effective without softener, but you would have to convince them to give up softener.

-Front loaders almost always use a lot less water then even HE top loaders. As the drainage at this address is such a problem, only a front loader has any hope of pumping out in small enough quantities for the drain to keep up. Any top loader which actually fills up (required for softener) is going to require a lot of manual intervention to keep its drain flows down, (as they have been doing with the Maytag)hence my suggestions to come up with a device to catch and slow down the waste water, or to just bite the bullet and upgrade the plumbing.

- Jamie invited our suggestions. I'm pretty confident he has the intelligence and maturity to consider them, and decide which he will pass on to his friends, and which he will weed out, for his own reasons.

Chris.


Post# 259004 , Reply# 26   1/10/2008 at 08:45 (5,922 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

Isn't there somebody here who actually owns and uses one of these HE top loaders? How much more water does a Cabrio, Aquasmart or Oasis use in comparison to a regular front loader? They don't appear to do a full immersion wash like a regular top loader. Don't they apply the same principle for rinsing, as they do for washing? They do come with a fabric softener dispenser.

I'd like to know please.

rapunzel


Post# 259019 , Reply# 27   1/10/2008 at 10:41 (5,922 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
I thought someone had posted a clip of their Calypso or other similar HE toploader in action here a while back. Maybe it's still locatable on YouTube if that's where it was originally posted.

Post# 259021 , Reply# 28   1/10/2008 at 10:58 (5,922 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
If I counted that right, the Oasis on YouTube does four shower rinses and then a final deep rinse with softener when 2nd Rinse is selected. Otherwise, I guess, I'll do two deep rinses.

Jon's Playlist: Towels


CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK


Post# 259022 , Reply# 29   1/10/2008 at 11:16 (5,922 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Also, if you look at the AquaSmart manual, it'll tell you how much water it uses on High Efficiency mode:

Load Size ... High Efficiency Mode

15.5 lb (7 kg) ... 22 G (82 L)
11 lb (5 kg) ... 18 G (69 L)
7 lb (3 kg) ... 16 G (60 L)
2 lb (1 kg) ... 14 G (54 L)

The original version from New Zealand, interstingly, has a larger capacity:

Load Size .. High Efficiency .. Conventional
8 kg.... 84 L ..... 165 L
5 kg.... 69 L ..... 147 L
3 kg.... 60 L ..... 123 L
1 kg.... 54 L ..... 88 L

The older version of the U.S. AquaSmart manual stated that the washer would automatically add softener, if the Softener Rinse option (deep final rinse) was selected. There was no bleach dispenser, rather a Bleach option that would alert the user to manually bleach add to the wash cycle by pausing and beeping. The new manual has is reversed (almost). Now, the FS dispenser is for bleach, there is a Bleach option to automatically add bleach to the wash - but there is nothing to add softener. Dryer sheets is what F&P recommend to use.


Post# 259039 , Reply# 30   1/10/2008 at 15:08 (5,921 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Calypsos do a lot of rinsing and softener can always be used, not quite comparable as an example of shower rinsing compared to the new HE machines.

My F&P GWL08 and IWL12 can do shower rinses of course, and have options to adjust how much water is used. IWL12 has six rinse options (Spray/Deep, Single Deep, Double Deep, Shower, Shower Save Water AAA, Shower Eco AAAA). I've tried shower rinse a few times, works well. Softener can't be used. The saturation sprays are much longer than what I see on the Oasis videos and the pump may run simultaneously for a flush-rinse. Hmm, I wonder if a wash plate would retrofit to an IWL12?


Post# 259118 , Reply# 31   1/10/2008 at 20:14 (5,921 days old) by gadgetgary (Bristol,CT)        
Top Loading Washer Stuff Guide

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Post# 259120 , Reply# 32   1/10/2008 at 20:15 (5,921 days old) by gadgetgary (Bristol,CT)        
Front Loading Washer Stuff Guide

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Post# 259741 , Reply# 33   1/14/2008 at 09:06 (5,918 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

One very important component of the Unimac's spin spray rinsing is the water filter. The spinner water line has a very good filter in it to keep the minerals and stuff in good water from being filtered through the clothes which leaves terrible streaks. Also, that spinner tub is in a large compartment which allows the resulting suds and water to be thrown far from the spinning basket so that it is not slowed. Perhaps the main reason the Unimac can get by with just spray rinsing is that the fabrics are lifted from the wash water and placed in the spinner, leaving heavy soil particles behind. The removal of heavy soil in this process is not dependent on draining and straining the wash water while the fabrics are in the tub. The Collapso was very bad with pet hair because there was no way for it to float off while the fabrics were surrounded by water. Of course, if pet or body hair is not a problem, that type of cleaning system works OK.

I do some spin spraying to suppplement the deep rinses when I rinse in one of the top loaders. I use one of those plant watering diffusers which create a soft "rainfall" type of spray which does not bounce off the fabrics and yes, the spray has to be focused on the spinning load. The spray has to be held so that the water flows onto the fabrics in the direction in which they are spinning, not just downward from an overhead shot. The Unimac's dedicated spinner tub with the water inlet in the center of the top is far more likely to give dependable, uniform rinsing than most top loader sprays. While the spray rinse provided between the wash and rinse in the Maytags and my older KitchenAid is effective for preliminary flushing of the machine and the load, I have found it is best not to dilute the detergent solution in the fabrics too much before the deep rinse so that enough detergent remains to flush the soil from the fabrics and keep it suspended in the rinse water before it is drained away. After the rinse, in the final spin, is the best time for final dilution of any remaining cleaning products unless the wash was way over dosed with detergent and suds are a problem. The most efficient spray rinsing also requires that the clothing be in as thin a layer as possible which is why the spin/drain in the Maytag is desirable and is why I interrupt the drain in the KA to create a spin/drain in it.

It must have been here that I saw a link to a modern front loader that gave the spinning load fine sprays to help remove detergent. When I washed a huge load of 8 bath sheets in the Duet yesterday, I used Arm & Hammer HE detergent. After it started to spin, a remarkably well-balanced spin, it stopped because of suds between the basket and outer tub. I opened the dispenser drawer and used the hose connected with a Y to the extra hot and cold faucets to introduce a small flow of cold water into the machine. It helped with the suds in the sump and I was quite surprised that the flow of water provided a bit of spin rinsing as the load began to spin again. I was only trying to flush suds so that it would spin. After the first spin, I rinsed the load in the KA then spun 4 at a time at 1600 rpm in the W1918.


Post# 259749 , Reply# 34   1/14/2008 at 10:10 (5,918 days old) by andrewinorlando ()        

Depending on how much an issue price is, a Calypso would fit the need. Top load,, uses water and detergent sparingly, has a huge capacity and does a load in 40 - 45 minutes or so. It has lots of options which they may or may not need, but they can still be found at Sears Outlets or other appliance stores as new machines. They tend to be a little pricey though, and don't wash well at all if overloaded. Its high speed spin will make shorter work of laundry day for sure. Just a thought....it's not a machine for everyone.

Post# 259815 , Reply# 35   1/14/2008 at 14:48 (5,917 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Esecially not for those who are not Do-It-Yourselfers.

Post# 259948 , Reply# 36   1/15/2008 at 02:28 (5,917 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
All rinsing is a function of dilution. Doesn't matter if one sprays, wipes down, immerses or whatever in clean water, long as the process is done correctly to dilute detergents,soils and muck out of laundry, each method has it's virtues.

What would help matters greatly is if all Amercian laundry products were clean rinsing. Products like Tide are for the most part designed for top loading washing and full tub "deep rinsing" in mind. Add to this many consumers use way too much laundry detergent, then to top things off bung lots of other "boosters" in as well, means rinsing is going to be difficult without one or perhaps more deep rinses. Spray rinses would work, but not many top loaders besides F&P are designed to give good results on that front.

L.



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