Thread Number: 15992
My Hoover Premier now only rotates one way during wash cycle
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Post# 267380   3/1/2008 at 06:37 (3,572 days old) by wire-weaver ()        

Hi folks,
Chris and Philip (Premier500) made some interesting comments in a prior thread (ref. link below) which has lead me to ask for help.

I have a Hoover Premier 750 Washing machine, and have replaced a lot of parts in it myself over the years. I'm not about to let the latest fault put it into retirement.
Here are the symptoms:
Spin cycle works OK, however the wash cycle only rotates the agitator in one direction, and when it should be rotating in the other direction, the top of the brake arm skips across the teeth on a cog on the outside of the gearbox and makes a clicking sound.
Also I'm not sure if this is normal or not, but I can see that when I manually rotate the agitator in one direction, the brake arm engages OK in the brake band, but when I turn it in the other direction, the brake arm doesn't engage and slips out of the brake band which results in the clicking sound as the plastic top of the brake arm slips over a gearbox cog.

And as Premier500 has already mentioned, the clothes indeed get wrapped around the agitator, making it go out of balance for the spin cycle.

So can anyone tell me which bit is bung ?

thanks in advance
regards
Peter


CLICK HERE TO GO TO wire-weaver's LINK





Post# 267558 , Reply# 1   3/2/2008 at 05:53 (3,572 days old) by gizmo (Great Ocean Road, Victoria, Au)        

It sounds like the brake arm is faulty or not engaging properly:
Look closely at the brake arm where it locates with the brake band. When the solenoid releases the brake arm at the end of spin, the transmission is still spinning (not at full speed though) and the big brake spring around the trans is spinning with it. When released,the brake arm swings back into its normal position, where the fork in its end blocks the brake spring. Remember the spring is still turning with the trans and they smack together pretty hard. The protruding end of the brake spring locks into the forked end of the brake arm, the spring stops turning instantly and as it is tightly wrapped around the transmission, the trans is braked to a stop very quickly.
The fault you describe is something wrong with the above setup. Most likely - brake arm has a damaged end, probably worn out fork end (fit new brake arm).
Also the brake arm can get a bit sticky so it doesn't turn freely and engage properly (remove arm, clean and grease its spindle, refit arm.) The solenoid could be jamming (replace) or the brake band could be worn out so it doesn't grip the trans tightly, or at worst, the transmission casing could be worn out where the brake band grips it.

Chris.


Post# 267642 , Reply# 2   3/2/2008 at 19:09 (3,571 days old) by wire-weaver ()        
Great Advice, I'll let you know what I discover

Hi Chris,
thanks very much for your advice, I'll let you know what I discover after investigating your suggestions.
regards
Peter


Post# 268232 , Reply# 3   3/7/2008 at 06:18 (3,566 days old) by wire-weaver ()        
It wasn't the brake arm !

Well, here is the latest update on my Hoover Premier 750 washing machine.
The brake relay was functioning OK, so I then ordered then fitted a new brake arm in the hope that it would solve my problem. (The old one looked a bit worn out). Alas, that didn't fix things up. So before I dished out lots of money on a new gearbox assembly, I requested a service call for a 2nd opinion. The service guy confirmed that the brake pad on the gearbox had been stripped down and could only be fixed by replacing the entire gearbox.
So I placed an order this arvo through Electrolux for a new gearbox (A$170). That is a small price to pay in comparison to a new washing machine. Long live my Hoover Premier !!
I'll let you know how it goes after I install the new gearbox assembly. It has to come from South Austrlia to Sydney, and SA has a public holiday on Monday, so I'll probably have it fitted in 4 more days (by next Thu PM). With 2 kids, 2 Adults and 2 dogs in the family, the dirty washing piles up pretty quickly. And for 1.5 weeks in total is a long time to be 'borrowing' the use of our friend's machines in the mean time.

regards
Peter


Post# 269550 , Reply# 4   3/14/2008 at 05:36 (3,560 days old) by wire_weaver ()        
Help me remove my old gearbox !!

The new gearbox arrived today and it is very obvious where the old one broke. The brake pad on the new gearbox has a piece of metal sticking out perpendicular to the circumferential brake pad/band which had snapped off on my old/existing gearbox.

OK so that is good news. But I CAN'T get the old gearbox out !!!

I've undone every screw and bolt holding it down but it seems intimately attached to the agitator/tub assembly. Am I supposed to remove the agitator too ? I assumed I could get the gearbox out just from the underside.

Please offer me some advice before my wife's patience runs out.

Also I don't want to give her more reasons to get a new machine as she continues to make use of our friend's (really big and attractively new) washing machine.

regards
Peter


Post# 269551 , Reply# 5   3/14/2008 at 05:38 (3,560 days old) by wire_weaver ()        
Pictures attached this time

Pictures attached this time. In the new gearbox, notice the bit of metal on the brake pad sticking out perpendicular to the circumferential part of the pad - that bit cnapped off my existing gearbox !

Post# 269563 , Reply# 6   3/14/2008 at 08:16 (3,559 days old) by gizmo (Great Ocean Road, Victoria, Au)        

Hi Peter

You have to completely dismantle the washbowl assembly. It is a big job and due to the age of your machine, is likely to be really difficult. Idon't mean to be pessimistic but you should know what you are in for. Personally I would try to get a refund on the new gearbox, and buy a complete second hand machine for about the same cost. You should be able to get a similar machine to yours for about $150 to $200, or a Fisher and Paykel smart drive, which are a much better machine, for a little more. If you go for F&P, buy something with a model mumber ending in 03 or higher. The earlier ones, end in 00, 01 have computer chips inside which are obsolete and can't be replaced if they fail. You should be able to find an 03 to 07 model for well under $300, and under $200 if you look around enough. Try ebay or tradingpost. First digit of the model number is load size, so a 603 is a 6kg series 3.

There were also cheaper versions made with odd model numbers such as 058, these are all 5kg and all reasonably late model.

If you want to persist with the Hoover Premier:
You need to stand the machine right way up again.
Remove the whole top panel - the entire plastic top of the machine including control panel and lid. You remove a few screws and lift it up. I believe on the Premier you can't fully disconnect it as the wiring doesn't separate, so the top will be dangling by the wires. (If I am wrong you will find a multi-wire plastic connector you can just pull apart, which will make things easier.) Turn the top panel around so the top panel is hanging down behind the machine, and try to support it so the weight of the assembly is not just hanging on the wires.
Next you have to remove the top of the tub assembly, it is the plastic rim with the hole through which you load the washing. I don't remember the detail on the Prem, but it will be retained by either screws or steel spring clips. Remove them and lift the piece out.
Next you remove the agitator. You have to use a long extension down the centre of the agitator to remove the screw, it might be a bolt head or it might be a phillips screwdriver head. Remove the screw, then yank the agitator up to remove. It can be hard to remove.

Now my memory is unclear in relation to the Hoover Premier. You will need to remove the inner washbowl (also called the basket). I can't remember how it is fixed on the Premier. Most likely it has a large nut, you need to put a socket over it and unscrew it. The socket has to be deep to allow for the agitator shaft sticking up inside it. These sockets are expensive, expect to pay over $40. The nut will be very tight, expec to lose a little blood in the fight. [The alternative design is that the base of the washbowl has a clamp in it, with a small nut and bolt next to the shaft,and you undo the nut and bolt, then wiggle the whole inner washbowl side-to-side as hard as you can to try to free the grip of the clamp plate on the gearbox top shaft which is sticking through.] Whichever design you have, it is usually a really hard fight to get it out. Over years of use, the gearbox top shaft and the washbowl mount tend to corrode together. It is often nearly impossible to separate them, the professionals use a specially made puller. If your machine isn't too old, it might be not so hard.
Once the inner washbowl is out, you can remove the gearbox. Try pulling it out from underneath as you probably already have, it might go easier now. You might need to drive it down from above, at least to get it started. Again, over time the gearbox shaft tends to corrode to the drum bearings, making it hard to get it to move. Once started to move, it gets easier to keep it moving out. Do NOT bash the gearbox shaft with a hammer, it will spread to be wider than the bearing and then it will NEVER come out.

If you do manage to get the gearbox out without destroying any other components, it would be a good idea to replace the main bearings and seal while you have it dismantled so far.

Personally I think the Premier is a bit of a disposable machine, I would never bother to fit a new gearbox to one.

But good luck with it if you decide to persevere.

Chris.


Post# 269569 , Reply# 7   3/14/2008 at 08:56 (3,559 days old) by wire_weaver ()        
Perseverance is my middle name

Wow Chris,
thanks so much for your reply. I had not even thought about the idea that a decent F&P smart drive would be available so cheaply. I paid $160 for the gearbox direct from Electrolux in S.A.

After trying out what you have suggested, I'll decide which path is better to take (i.e. repair or 2nd hand F&P). BTW after my last post above, I began to realise that I needed to attack it from the top, so I did get as far as removing the top panel, hinging it back and then removing the top of the tub assembly. Then in the centre of the agitator I saw no bolt or screw to undo. At the base of the inside of the agitator it just looked like the outline of a small plastic wheel with 3 spokes to the centre. I'll look again after I get some sleep.

That larger nut holding down the washbowl sounds ominous. I'm always looking for an excuse to buy more tools that only get used once ;) (unless my spark-plug removing tool happens to fit it ! Wishful thinking)

I'll keep you posted.
regards
Peter


Post# 269706 , Reply# 8   3/15/2008 at 03:45 (3,559 days old) by wire_weaver ()        

OK so this morning I used a re-fashioned coat hanger to removed the plastic doo-dad at the bottom centre of the agitator that looked like a tri-spoked bicycle wheel. This then revealed a hex head bolt which lies 350mm down the agitator shaft !! I used blue tack on the end of the coat-hanger to get an imprint of the bolt head to show me it was 10mm in size. Fortunately my father-in-law has lots of tools, so he's lending me a socket wrench with a long extension piece.

Tomorrow lunchtime I will have the tool and be ready for the next step of the adventure. I'm not looking forward to that ominous large nut to come !

While I think of it I thought I'd include some photos showing the old and new brakepads.

regards
Peter


Post# 269906 , Reply# 9   3/16/2008 at 05:26 (3,558 days old) by wire_weaver ()        
Corrosion might have got the better of me

I have toiled all afternoon attempting to remove the gearbox/transmission from the washtub assembly. I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that it is VERY stuck. As per Chris' warning, I think the gearbox outer shaft and the washtub have become welded together due to corrosion. The inner axle moves rather freely up and down (especially since I took off the planetary gears and circlip at the opposite end)

I have tried everything I can think of . Even driving two plastic garden stakes between the outer washtub plastic bowl and the gearbox mounting plate. Bashing every metal bit with a hammer (contrary to Chris' warning !), jumping on it, kicking it, ARGHHHH!!!!! Why did Hoover use two dissimilar metals ???!?!?!

If anyone has any bright ideas as to how I can separate the wash tub from the gearbox, please let me know before I go out and buy a new washing machine. Even if I used a lathe to bore it out, I would destroy the shape of the metal in the washtub so the new transmission wouldn't be a snug fit.


Failing that, I hope I can get a refund on the new replacement gearbox I bought...

regards
Peter


Post# 269907 , Reply# 10   3/16/2008 at 05:31 (3,558 days old) by wire_weaver ()        

Some more pics showing the garden stakes driven between the gearbox mounting plate and the outer plastic wash tub.

Post# 269916 , Reply# 11   3/16/2008 at 07:31 (3,557 days old) by gizmo (Great Ocean Road, Victoria, Au)        

Hi Peter

Three things to try:

1. Heat. First you could pour boiling water over the alloy plate which has the gearbox shaft going through it. (the washbowl centre plate.) If you can expand it, you might be able to push or pull the gearbox shaft through. If you have access to a blowtorch you could try that,but you have to be careful not to melt the plastic outer tub.

2. A puller. Idon't know exactly how it works, but the general idea of the pullers that the pros use is as follows - you completely gut the transmission from below. That is, you remove all gears, then remove the agitator shaft. NOTE: there might be a circlip at the top end of the agitator shaft. To check, back inside the washbowl, in between the agitator shaft and the gearbox shaft (in your photo labelled inner axle and gearbox outer shaft) there is a washer &/or seal. You dig it/them out with a fine screwdriver. From my vague memory, it is both washer and seal - you have to prise out the washer first, underneath there is an oilseal which is made of rubber, moulded over a round metal shell. To remove, you hammer a fine screwdriver down between the edge of the seal and the outer gearbox shaft, the seal will be distorted and you can lever it out. Then under that, hopefully you can see a circlip. You remove that with circlip pliers, then you can push the agitator shaft downwards to remove. [Sorry to be confusing here, but it might be the other way up - the circlip might be inside the gearbox, in that case you would remove the circlip from inside the transmission, then drive the shaft up into the washbowl. - I have never been this far into a Hoover Premier, though I have done other similar machines such as Simpsons and Hitachis, the details vary but they are broadly the same.] Once you have the agitator shaft out, you put a long threaded rod through the transmission and through the gearbox shaft, then put a big washer and nut on the washbowl end of the threaded rod. At the other end you need to rig up a frame (I would try using 100 x 50mm hardwood) which spans the heavy reinforced part of the outer washtub, with some spacers of the same wood. You are making a sort of "gallows" around the transmission, with plenty of clearance to pull the transmission into, with a hole in the cross piece to pass the threaded rod through. Then you put a big washer and nut on that end of the threaded rod. Grease up the threaded rod so the nut turns very easily, then start turning the nut tighter, so it pulls against your timber "gallows". You keep tightening the nut and one of two things will happen - either the gearbox will start winding down, or the wood will break. If the wood breaks, try making a stronger frame, try number 3, or buy a new washing machine.

3. Smash off the alloy centre plate of the washbowl. Use a short handle heavy mallet (also called a mash hammer) and a cold chisel. This is good to take out your frustrations. Take care not to drive the chisel through the plastic bottom of the outer wash bowl. Smash it around the edge first so you can pull out the washbowl, then chisel off the centre remnants from the gearbox shaft. Try not to do damage to the gearbox shaft, or if you do you will have to file/grind them smooth again as the shaft still has to pass through the main bearings to remove the gearbox. Obviously you will have to buy a new alloy centre plate for the washbowl (whatever its proper name is ) and new bolts too. You should fit new bearings and seal too, if they don't already come on the transmission/baseplate assembly you have bought.

Good luck...
Chris


CLICK HERE TO GO TO gizmo's LINK on eBay


Post# 269926 , Reply# 12   3/16/2008 at 08:17 (3,557 days old) by wire_weaver ()        

Wow Chris, even more great advice !!! My wife is certainly not happy with the advice as she has been without a machine now for 2 weeks !! I'm going to try options 1 and then maybe 3 as they will take the least of my time as I work during the week.
Where can I get a full parts list so I know exactly what parts to order? Ideally it would be accompanied with an exploded isometric open-in-line for assembly drawing to make identification of the parts easier. Perhaps Electrolux could fax or email me something

thanks
Peter


Post# 270449 , Reply# 13   3/18/2008 at 03:49 (3,556 days old) by wire_weaver ()        
Fare thee well old-faithful

I got out my portable blow torch and freezing spray to heat the alloy and cool the gearbox shaft. I re-filled my torch from a can of butane I've had for about 15 years now, looking forward to the excitement, and,... Pffffffffff.........
The torch's refill nipple began spraying out the butane like a fountain !!!! That was the sign for me to give up.

It would have taken me another week to remove the stubborn thing after buying another blow torch, trying that to no avail, then buying a mash hammer and cold chisel and hacking away at it. etc etc. Thankfully I can get a refund on the gearbox.

The new machine is being delivered tomorrow. A F&P 8kg Aquasmart.
Obviously money wasn't the main reason I persisted so long. It must have been the notion of been beaten by a machine I set out to conquer.

My wife is now happier.

Thanks very much for all your timely advice Chris, it was much appreciated.

Fare thee well old-faithful Hoover.

Peter





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