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Laundy in Slovenia
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Post# 270521   3/18/2008 at 15:31 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
Hi, here are some pictures of my laundry (gorenje washer and bosch dryer). I hope you like it.




Post# 270523 , Reply# 1   3/18/2008 at 15:36 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
my current detergents - dash, bolt (P&G Italy), drefr (P&G Slovenia), ava (Reckitt Benckiser Italy), Tide (bought in Canada) and Purex (bought in USA)

Post# 270524 , Reply# 2   3/18/2008 at 15:39 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
reday to be washed with Tide he

Post# 270528 , Reply# 3   3/18/2008 at 15:48 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
washing 3 hand towel, 1 sheet, 3 long sleeved t-shirt, 1 pajamas, 1 pair of socks and 1 underpants, pastel colors on 60* C cotton, high water level, one extra rinse (= 4 rinses), 1200 rpm spin.

Post# 270529 , Reply# 4   3/18/2008 at 15:51 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
ready to be dryed

Post# 270532 , Reply# 5   3/18/2008 at 16:00 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
I have the dryer in the cellar, because above the washer I have the wall hanging gas boiler

Post# 270533 , Reply# 6   3/18/2008 at 16:01 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
done

Post# 270545 , Reply# 7   3/18/2008 at 17:46 (3,499 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Oh I love the sight of Italian Dash! That's my favourite detergent ever! The adverts are so true, nothing washes wither!
And your machine looks so neat! Gorenje sure makes some interesting appliances.


Post# 270550 , Reply# 8   3/18/2008 at 17:55 (3,499 days old) by newwave1 (Lincoln, United Kingdom)        

newwave1's profile picture
Awesome machine Gorenje!

I love these machines, i'd love to see a pic of it during the rinse! I love some of the features these machines have!

How long have you had the machine & do you like it?

Darren


Post# 270575 , Reply# 9   3/18/2008 at 21:24 (3,499 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Lovely machines!

I like to see all Euro products! Even the heating radiator is different to us!

Is that *GASP* a dryer fabric softner sheet in that gorgeous dryer?

Thank you for posting this. What is hard-wired/ directly-wired (i.e. no outlet/power-point and plug/flex-cord connection) to the left of the washer?


Post# 270634 , Reply# 10   3/19/2008 at 03:44 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
Hi Gabriele, yes Dash is really the best detergent, especially for whites. I think Dash is in Italy as Tide in the USA. (and indeed it's made by the same company) Here in Slovenia it's a bit expensive and not available everywhere. Ciao :)

Post# 270647 , Reply# 11   3/19/2008 at 04:27 (3,499 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
Hi Darren, I'm glad you like these machines. I will post some more pics and maybe a video. The washer is two and a half years old. I like it very much 'cos you are able to change and customize the programs, you can increase the water level, add rinses or use the water clear sensor, delay the start. I like it also because you can use the automatic soak (from 1 to 6 hours). I dont like that sometimes it takes too much time to go into the spin cycle. (because of the balance sensor)

Hi Steve, yes it's always interesting too see something new and something different. For me is the same when I look to the american products. :) ha ha, yes you're right that's some dryer sheets from the previouse drying. I now it sounds strange but I leave it for a while in the drum because it still smels good. Sometimes I leave the entire box of sheets inside the drum. :) The washer is directly-wired. This is very common here in Slovenia for washers, dryers, dishwashers, electric boilers. I don't know why, it always was so.
Ingemar


Post# 270662 , Reply# 12   3/19/2008 at 06:26 (3,499 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Hi Ingemar:

In 220v lands my understanding is that there are few (if any) outlet configurations for amperages above a certain level; therefore many items are hard-wired. I just never expected it of washers. I am guessing some countries require cut-off switches near such appliances such as the need for switches near cookers (also hard-wired)in the UK.

Thank you for your response and the information!

Best regards,
-Steve


Post# 270669 , Reply# 13   3/19/2008 at 07:19 (3,499 days old) by lavamat78800 ()        

Hey Ingemar,
great washing machine and dryer!
I always thought Gorenje would be a low class modell-but I think Im worng...somebody told me that they would be compareable with Bosch/Siemens and Bosch/Siemens produce great machines..Ive a Bosch dishwasher and its terrific :)
I think I saw your machine at MediaStore..am I right, that your machine shows the amount of water it will use for the cycle in the display!?


Post# 270787 , Reply# 14   3/19/2008 at 18:26 (3,498 days old) by mrx ()        
European plugs / sockets

The majority of European countries use the CEE 7/7 grounded plug. This is a 2-pin plug with a scraping earth contact. It's rated for up to 16A at 230V.

Many former Eastern Bloc countries used GOST (Russian) standards which have an almost identical plug (based on common pre WWII German ancestor) but it is only rated for 10 amps max.

This could explain why the Slovenian set up hardwires the washing machine and dryer.
Although, almost all of the formerly Eastern Bloc countries are moving to normal CEE standards, so new installations would be 16 Amp socket outlets.


The UK, Ireland, Italy, Switzerland and Denmark are the major exceptions.

The UK and Ireland use a completely different plug known as BS1363. This has 3 rectangular pins and, due to the ring circuit wiring used in the UK, every plug is individually fused. When connected to a ring circuit, the plug fuse provides the primary over current protection while the breaker is rated 32amps and is only designed to protect the house wiring.

These plugs carry up to 13 amps depending on the type of fuse inserted.


Italy uses a 3 pin plug with all 3 pins in a row. These are rated up to 16 amps.

Switzerland's plug is similar with the earth pin slightly out of line with the live and neutral. These are also only rated 10amps

Denmark uses a plug that is very like CEE 7/7 except that it uses a 3rd pin for grounding. This setup has proven to be quite dangerous as a Danish outlet can accept a standard European CEE 7/7 plug but will not make a ground connection!!
As a result, Denmark's now phasing them out in favour of the French socket system which complies with CEE 7/7.

It's not as complicated as it sounds!!


Below is the de facto standard CEE 7/7 plug that works in the vast majority of EU countries:

1 = socket outlet recessed to prevent any contact with the pins while you're inserting the plug (it's totally impossible to touch the pins)
2 = Grounding contact
3 = Line/Neutral pins
4 = Guide groves to make it easier to insert and support heavier plugs (transformers etc)


Post# 270788 , Reply# 15   3/19/2008 at 18:28 (3,498 days old) by mrx ()        
The French Version

The French version uses a protruding pin to make the ground contact
Otherwise it's pretty much identical and has all the same features e.g. recessed etc etc.




Post# 270790 , Reply# 16   3/19/2008 at 18:32 (3,498 days old) by mrx ()        
The CEE 7/7 plug

The standard European CEE 7/7 plug (the default standard for quite a long time) has both the scraping German style and pin receptacle French style ground contacts.
This is fitted to any appliance you buy in CEE 7/7 countries.




Post# 270792 , Reply# 17   3/19/2008 at 18:37 (3,498 days old) by mrx ()        
The UK and Ireland Outlet

Here's what's used in the UK and Ireland.

Ground on top
Neutral on Left
Live on Right

13 Amps 230V

Most of them have switches, although there's no requirement to.

Also, they're all shuttered. (Same with the French ones). So you can't insert anything other than a plug.




Post# 270793 , Reply# 18   3/19/2008 at 18:40 (3,498 days old) by mrx ()        
Comparison

Left to Right:

Grounded 16A CEE 7/7 (continental EU)
Grounded 13A BS1363 (UK & Ireland)
Ungrounded 15A US NEMA plug (USA/Canada small appliances)

Note: there is no 2 ungrounded version of the UK/Ireland plug!!
and the red panel is the fuse holder - you can remove this to replace the fuse.

There's a smaller non-grounded Europlug for small appliances, it's similar in size to a US plug.


Post# 270795 , Reply# 19   3/19/2008 at 18:48 (3,498 days old) by mrx ()        
Finally! The smaller non-grounded European plug

This is the CEE 7/16 "Europlug" which is used for small appliances with a maximum rating of 2.5 amps. You'll find it on things like radios, audio equipment, small televisions, toothbrush chargers, mobile phone chargers etc etc..

This plug fits *ALL* European outlets (Except the UK/Ireland where a small adaptor is needed). So, for most small appliances even in the "awkward nations" it's quite easy to stay connected.

See picture below of CEE 7/16 with a standard "Figure of 8" connector on the other end.




Post# 270950 , Reply# 20   3/20/2008 at 12:54 (3,497 days old) by mielabor ()        
Hard wiring

Here in the Netherlands hard wiring is required for washing machines placed in bathrooms etc. No sockets other than special shaving sockets are allowed in such rooms. The wiring connector box is usually located out of reach and has a two-pole switch that can be operated by pulling a rope. The electrical cord should be installed such that it cannot touch the floor.

Post# 270951 , Reply# 21   3/20/2008 at 13:00 (3,497 days old) by mielabor ()        
The connector box...

It is called a "wasmachineschakelaar" (washing machine switch)

Post# 271005 , Reply# 22   3/20/2008 at 16:34 (3,497 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
Hello people, tkanks for all these explanations. Here we can learn a lot of interesting things. Now I know why some plugs have a "hole". That's for the protruding pin for the french standards. My appartment have almost three years but I noticed that in some new appartments there are no more hard-wiring boxes, but standard plugs, probably or quite sure because of the European standards.

Post# 271006 , Reply# 23   3/20/2008 at 16:36 (3,497 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
Hi Nino and thanks! Yes Bosch and Siemens are great appliances. I am very happy with my Bosch dryer and dishwasher. My grandmother have a Siemens dishwasher and a 18 years old Siemens washing machine. The washer can't hide the years, especially during the spin cycle, but is stil going :)
I know that some Bosch products are made by gorenje and some gorenje dishwashers are made by Bosch. Yes you are right, my washer shows the water usage per load on the display. Bye, Ingemar


Post# 271110 , Reply# 24   3/21/2008 at 02:52 (3,497 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Ingemar

foraloysius's profile picture
Great machines you have there, I find those Gorenje washing machines quite intrigueing with all those features. Overhere in the Netherlands you hardly see them though, it's been ages that I saw one in an appliance store.

Post# 271112 , Reply# 25   3/21/2008 at 03:02 (3,497 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Now we're talking electric connections..

foraloysius's profile picture
I'll tell you a bit about my set up. I have two washers and two dryers connected to one connector box. This connector box was originally meant for hooking up one washer and one dryer, but I did it a bit differently. Instead of connecting the machines directly I connected two automatic switch boxes to it, for each set one. These switch boxes are used for a washer and dryer set. When the washer draws a lot of power when it's heating it automatically shuts off the dryer until the heating is done. Then it lets the dryer to continue. Here's a picture of one of those automatic switch boxes.

Post# 271114 , Reply# 26   3/21/2008 at 03:06 (3,497 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
These two switch boxes are both connected to a connector box (wasmachineschakelaar as Theo said). Instead of choosing between washer or dryer I use this box for choosing between the AEG set (W) or the Miele set (D). I find this very convenient.

Post# 271126 , Reply# 27   3/21/2008 at 04:12 (3,497 days old) by mielabor ()        

Hi Louis,

So you have a "wasmachineschakelaar" with a three position switch: washer/off/dryer. Interesting... I have never seen those before.


Post# 271131 , Reply# 28   3/21/2008 at 04:40 (3,497 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Hi Theo,

I bought it in 2002 at the Gamma DIY store. I've seen them on www.marktplaats.nl... as well.


Post# 271135 , Reply# 29   3/21/2008 at 05:00 (3,497 days old) by mrx ()        

Washing machines and dryers in Ireland are normally just plugged in with a BS1363 (IS401) 13amp plug the same as any other appliance. Our sockets generally don't use 32amp ring circuits like the UK, rather they're connected to 20amp radials. A laundry room or kitchen would typically be supplied with several of these circuits to allow all machines to operate simultaneously.

If the machines are built in, they normally have their plugs located in a position where they can be easily accessed to disconnect them. Otherwise, they need to be connected via a double-pole switch, or be placed on a dedicated circuit that can be easily isolated at the circuit breaker.

Also, all socket outlets (less than 32 amps) are required to be connected to an RCD (GFCI) since the late 1970s.

For very large capacity dryers, they are directly connected to a 20amp or 32amp dedicated radial circuits. In this case, they would have a double-pole switch located near by. The wiring rules in this case would be similar to an electric shower or water heater i.e. local isolating double pole switch on a dedicated circuit with an RCD/MCB.



Post# 271148 , Reply# 30   3/21/2008 at 07:18 (3,497 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Hi Louis! *WAVES*

toggleswitch's profile picture
~When the washer draws a lot of power when it's heating it automatically shuts off the dryer until the heating is done. Then it lets the dryer to continue.

Can we then assume the dryer has mechanical (not electronic controls)and that there is no "push-to-start" button?

To me is is interesting to see the various safeguards used when ordianry line voltage is 220v!


~The wiring rules in this case would be similar to an electric shower or water heater i.e. local isolating double pole switch on a dedicated circuit with an RCD/MCB.

IIRC the neutral here in this country may not be switched or otherwise interrupted all the way to the load. Of course two-pole switches are desrable with our 220v which has two "hot" leads. Sometimes double-pole swithces are not used with 220v circuits here (Only ONe of two "hots" are switched; this poses the hazard of a potentially live circuit should there be a ground-fault even with the aplliance/load switched "off".

Thanks all, always a learning experience here


Post# 271152 , Reply# 31   3/21/2008 at 07:47 (3,497 days old) by mielabor ()        
Neutral switching...

Toggleswitch:
Neutral is switched too because it is unsafe not to do so. Theoretically the voltage should be zero but that cannot be guaranteed. I live in a 1930s apartment and in my bathroom the light was double switched too. (Till the 1990s we had a 220V system with two hot wires and no neutral at all)

Louis:
Like Toggleswitch I was also wondering how electronic dryers react on switching on and off the power supply. I have this Asko washing machine and find it very frustrating that I cannot interrupt the program without starting again at the beginning of the cycle, something that was no problem with my mechanical Miele.


Post# 271172 , Reply# 32   3/21/2008 at 09:13 (3,496 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Waves back at the audience LOL

foraloysius's profile picture
I read a warning somewhere too that electronic controlled dryers could give a problem on such an automatic box. My Miele dryer has electronic controls and a start button but it works on this box. You only have to restart the Miele when the door has been opened.

My Miele washer works in the same way. After a power failure it just will continue the cycle. This being an older Miele you can't open it when it's running but I can open the door with the extra mechanical door opener behind the lint trap door, add laundry and then close the door again. The Miele will continue from where it was stopped.

BTW, I don't think my set up would meet standard safety regulations, but it's not within reach from the shower.

Apologies to Ingemar for hijacking the thread! Is this interesting enough to start a new thread? For instance about electrical installations in Europe?


Post# 271177 , Reply# 33   3/21/2008 at 09:41 (3,496 days old) by mielabor ()        

Louis,

I am sure that your set up is not according to the regulations. I remember seeing a picture of your bathroom with loose electrical cords all over the place!


Post# 271178 , Reply# 34   3/21/2008 at 09:45 (3,496 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
"All over the place..."

foraloysius's profile picture
Theo,

I have only cords "all over the place" when I'm playing with one of my other washers. LOL! But when I'm doing that I don't shower at the same time.


Post# 271180 , Reply# 35   3/21/2008 at 09:47 (3,496 days old) by mielabor ()        

Maybe we should start a thread about the various inventive and possibly a bit risky solutions to connect appliances to the power supply?

Post# 271181 , Reply# 36   3/21/2008 at 09:56 (3,496 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
~Apologies to Ingemar for hijacking the thread!

I should be saying that! Thanks guys for indulging my silly questions!

If we are to start a new thread, I'd love to hear how the various countries in Europe converted from 110v to 220v. Sounds like it was a bitch-and-a half (difficult) to do!


Post# 271203 , Reply# 37   3/21/2008 at 11:59 (3,496 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
~Maybe we should start a thread about the various inventive and possibly a bit risky solutions to connect appliances to the power supply?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds to me somebody wants to be slapped! LOL

Toggles,

No silly questions, I know you're intrigued by this kind of electrical stuff. I'm always intrigued by other systems as well. When I got online in 1997 it wasn't only appliances that had my interest but I also searched a lot on the American electrical system.


Post# 271204 , Reply# 38   3/21/2008 at 12:05 (3,496 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Odd!!!

foraloysius's profile picture
I had a look at the Gorenje website and it seems Gorenje isn't sold in the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg) at all!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO foraloysius's LINK


Post# 271228 , Reply# 39   3/21/2008 at 14:46 (3,496 days old) by mielabor ()        

Louis,

I had no intention to offend you with my suggestion for a new thread, but your solution for connecting washers/dryers to the mains just reminded me of my own set up which is certainly not up to current regulations. I am about to open a new thread in the "Super" forum about this.


Post# 271231 , Reply# 40   3/21/2008 at 14:52 (3,496 days old) by mrx ()        
Toggleswitch:

Normal 230V in Europe is supplied as a 230V Live (Hot) and a nominally 0V neutral. It's the same as a 110V circuit in the USA.

However, it is never a good idea to assume that a neutral wire is 0V, in theory it should be but there are various conditions that could be present that could give you a shock.

Double pole switches are required where something needs to be fully isolated for maintenance purposes e.g. someone wants to service a washing machine. For safety reasons, it's desirable to fully disconnect the machine from the mains supply i.e. both hot and neutral.

Normal on/off switching is usually just single pole cutting the hot part of the circuit only as all you're doing is interrupting the flow.






Post# 271252 , Reply# 41   3/21/2008 at 16:06 (3,496 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
It's OK Theo, I was just kidding. ;-) I can handle a joke or too. LOL

Post# 271259 , Reply# 42   3/21/2008 at 16:51 (3,496 days old) by liberator1509 (Ireland)        
Irish plugs and sockets

MRX's description of European plugs is great, and I thought it might be interesting to note that for many years, the antecdent of the modern Schuko 7/4 (Schutzkontakt) plug found in most of Europe was also common in Ireland. This was because of the involvement of Siemens-Schuckert in the construction of the Ardnacrusha hydro-electric power plant in the 1930s.

For many years, Irish homes had a wide range of socket outlets - two pin schuko-style (grounded and ungrounded sockets and plugs), three-pin round (BS 546, generally in 15 amp for the kitchen) , and eventually the modern BS 1363 13 amp UK fused plug and socket! Ireland moved to the latter system in the 60s because of close proximity with the UK and not wanting an incompatible system between UK parts of Northern Ireland and the Republic. Oddly enough, voltage differences took much longer to harmonise! Strange that the UK didn't harmonise to the Schuko system (or perhaps inevitable...)

I can just recall my maternal grandparents farmhouse in the 70s where the kitchen had some 13amp sockets and some 15 amp sockets (including one for the Speed Queen wringer-washer!), and the other rooms had a mix of grounded and un-grounded Schuko-style sockets! The other grandparents had Schuko-style throughout, grounded in the kitchen, ungrounded elsewhere...hard to believe that such a messy system persisted for years...


CLICK HERE TO GO TO liberator1509's LINK


Post# 271281 , Reply# 43   3/21/2008 at 19:17 (3,496 days old) by mrx ()        

Schuko was the preferred and official Irish standard for plugs and sockets for quite a long time. It's still referenced in the wiring standards and national electrical standards.

Basically what happened was that the ESB (Electricity Supply Board) adopted the original Schuko system in the 1920s as it fitted into the the 220V 50Hz system that they had standardised on by 1927.

The UK system was not considered as there was no single UK standard i.e. the old round pin UK system had at least 6 different types of incompatible plugs and there were various voltages in use in the UK before they finally settled on 240V 50Hz in the 1960s! Then moved to 230V 50Hz to harmonise with the rest of Europe.

Schuko and 220V was pretty much a mature and stable standard by the late 20s, so it made a lot of sense to adopt it. It was widely used in other European countries even by that stage.

During WWII it became impossible for Irish electricians to get their hands on Schuko fittings as they all came from Northern continental europe i.e. Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia etc.
Ireland's electrical market size possibly didn't make it worth anyone's while to manufacture electrical fittings locally, so UK fittings started to appear. So, you begin to see the UK 15A round pin plug and socket system appearing in homes in the 1940s and into the 50s.

Schuko came back again after WWII, but at that stage there was a mess with a mixture of old UK round pin and schuko sockets.

The UK was in the process of abolishing the use of the old round pin system which was very cumbersome and had a lot of problems i.e. umpteen different types of plugs etc and was moving to the current rectangular pin system used today.

BS1363 was specifically designed to be totally incompatible with its predecessors so that it would force a standardisation on a single safe system.

Ireland had a slightly different mixture of standards, but it made sense for us to do the same thing and get rid of the mix.

Both countries were in a similar position and wanted to get rid of a "system" that was poorly standardised and relied heavily on the use of adaptors in the home.

e.g. in the UK it was impossible to plug a 5amp plug into a 15amp socket without an adaptor, yet these fittings all co-existed in homes and offices! So, if you tried to plug your vacuum cleaner into the socket in the kitchen it might not have fitted.

Also, it made sense as we share a land border with the UK so, had we continued to use Schuko we would have had 2 different plug/socket systems on the Island of Ireland.

Today, IS401 (BS1363) plugs are required to be fitted to all appliances sold in the Republic of Ireland and the BS1363 socket system is the default standard in homes and offices. You won't really find anything else in use at this stage.

However, the Schuko system is still referenced in the modern wiring standards and can crop up in special uses e.g. if we need to connect something >13amps.

It's also still referenced in the official irish guides to how to wire a plug!

Ireland never moved away from German wiring practices though. We do not use ring circuits, rather we use 16 or 20amp radials to power socket outlets and the Siemens originated "diazed" or "neozed" cartridge fuse system was always used on our distribution panels rather than the UK system. This is the same as the fuse system found in most of Northern Europe (except France and the UK)

It's weird though, I think we're possibly the only country to have used Schuko and actually dumped the system. Most countries have standardised on it having moved away from older national standards.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK


Post# 271283 , Reply# 44   3/21/2008 at 19:22 (3,496 days old) by mrx ()        
Diazed Fuses

Here's the old diazed fuses that you'll see in many houses in Ireland wired pre 1980s.

Fuses continued to be used here along side RCDs (GFCIs). Electricians considered them safer than breakers right up until the 1980s!
All Irish distribution boards still have a single "main fuse" of the neozed/diazed type. The idea is that if the whole board over loads / there is a fire the fuse will melt. They are still considered a little more fail safe than an electromechanical breaker.




Post# 271284 , Reply# 45   3/21/2008 at 19:23 (3,496 days old) by mrx ()        
Picture

That picture was the only one I could find to illustrate the old fuses and it actually shows a broken fuse carrier. :)

Post# 271331 , Reply# 46   3/22/2008 at 06:56 (3,496 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
There is a new thread about electricity in the Super Forum: "Thread# 16305 How are your appliances connected"





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