Thread Number: 17455
Here's my question
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Post# 286135   6/19/2008 at 20:45 (3,406 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        

jetcone's profile picture
Just saw the new Miele 4000 series washer at Expo. Beautiful machine BUT I have serious doubts about that honey comb drum!!

Those holes are too small for a lot of grit and sand and how long will it take to extract water out of the clothes.
I think those hole sizes between the honeycombs are a big boo-boo but the honey comb drum is a nice surface!
And lint I would swear those holes will plug with lint never mind sand.

See below quote
"MILNOR's bigger cylinder perforations give:
High wash quality (promotes intense interchange of wash solutions with goods).
Thorough rinsing (promotes interchange of solutions and goods and lets water drain freely).
Enhanced extraction (allows water to escape from goods easily, quickly)."

Post# 286164 , Reply# 1   6/19/2008 at 23:21 (3,406 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Honeycomb Drum

Hi Jon,

I've had a honeycombed drum miele for nearly 4 years now and am yet to experience a problem.

Occaisionally I might have to wipe dog hair or blanket fluff from the drum, but sand, dirt, grit and normal lint usually passes out of the drum, either through the holes, or in the gap between the drum and the boot. I'm not sure from where, but the drum stays clean and the sink drain collects the lint. The Miele also allows water into the tub through the paddles, and on small loads you can see the water run into the drum from the top as the drum rotates.

Most modern Miele's run with an 8 minute final spin and from memory, acheive results of 48% to 60% residual moisture depending on the model and therefore spin speed. (1100RPM to 1800RPM) Mine spins for 6 minutes at 1200RPM and then 2 minutes at the max speed (Usually 1800RPM) I occaisionally stick my head inside and have a look and if I shine a torch, I can see through all the perforations and it all is shiney SS on the outside.

With the small holes you dont get delicate fibres being pulled into the tub perforations during spin and can spin Woolens or some delicates at 1200-1600RPM without any creasing or damage. On Mums Miele which has regular perforations and a 1100rpm spin, the max spin speed on Woolens in 600RPM

The holes might look small, but on the 5.5kg or 6.5kg machines it seems to work fine.

Post# 286184 , Reply# 2   6/20/2008 at 05:54 (3,406 days old) by nmaineman36 ()        

I have the Miele W4800 washer with the drum in question. Never a problem with sand or grit. I too had that question about it and I can tell you the only thing that I can gripe about is that pet hair problem. But since I use a Miele dryer there is never a problem since the dryer will take care of any hair or lint.
Also extraction is better as well . The washer uses a graduated spin in the final spin and what it does it will spin and then slow down to a tumble about 3 times. That is designed so that the water in the load doesnt overwhelm the pump. The pump is powerful and not a wimpy pump like on the Maytag Neptune. Anyways the washer does get up to 1100 rpms and it stays there for about 3 mins before the cycle end. When the washer ends it doesnt do a "fluff" like most front load washers I have used. the load is supposed to fall freely from the drum...since I have had the washer that never happens. The clothes are still plastered to the drum.
The washer is worth the money i think and built like a tank. So far no problems. And its very effective washing and frugal with water. Rinsing is always clear in the final rinse.

Post# 286194 , Reply# 3   6/20/2008 at 07:04 (3,406 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Spin Care Drum

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Hi Jon, have not had any reports other than "FAB" with the Miele Honeycombs!!!the water along with lint & grit will find its way out by centrifugal force...

AND for those NOt convinced...LOL..i`ve have a Servis Quartz from the 80`s with the original Spin-Care Drum, no holes just vanes and that extracted just fine, rather like the solid tub top loader & spinners

Cheers, Mike

Post# 286542 , Reply# 4   6/22/2008 at 14:28 (3,403 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        

jetcone's profile picture
well i'll be! Thanks for the experiences guys, I would have thought otherwise for sure.

I like the idea that the woolens and delicates can be whomped onto high spin as well as the cottons!

Must start looking for a used 4000 series to play with.

Post# 286687 , Reply# 5   6/23/2008 at 00:35 (3,403 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
our experience

panthera's profile picture
In 2000, my washer died. I had planned on getting another Miele and so was really disappointed to read that the honeycomb drum was awful with pet hair (three cats and one dog, thank you very much). Talked to my old boss who sold them. His wife breeds cats, so I figured he'd know for sure. They were back to older Mieles in the kennel because the honeycomb just wasn't doing it.

But that is irrelevant - today, you can order Mieles with the "old" drum pattern or the honeycomb. Not all models, but many. When this washer goes - I bought an LG which got the best ratings for pet hair - I'll pick up a Miele with the old pattern.

Question: I've spun my silks and cashmere pullovers at 1200 for decades. Never had any problem with them at all. Do large holes really cause such damage?

Post# 286701 , Reply# 6   6/23/2008 at 04:14 (3,403 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Be Fair

launderess's profile picture
Milnor wash cycles do in about 30 minutes or so what Miele's
"normal" does in about 45mins (or so).

Milnor washing machines are commercial units built for no fuss,no muss laundry. Yes, some models can be programmed with all sorts of water levels, drum rotation speed combinations and so forth.

A commercial or coin laundromat has requirements totally different from your typical Hausfrau or HausHerren. Remember Milnors like most other commercial washing machines do not mess around when it comes to draining and spinning. Water has to leave that tub ASAP or it is pretty darn bad, as the machine is going to spin; unlike many domestic units that dither about the matter unless every single parameter is correct.

Do not think many if any commercial front loaders spin as fast nor have RMC levels as domestic washers. If items need to be spun really dry, there are extractors to do the job. Could be wrong, but wouldn't want to be near a 40lb capacity commercial front loader spinning at 1400rpms, unless it was WELL bolted into lots of concrete.

Personally would love a nice domestic machine built along the lines of a Milnor.

Post# 286702 , Reply# 7   6/23/2008 at 05:05 (3,403 days old) by nmaineman36 ()        

Jon...the cycles on the Miele are designed to limit what you can select. For instance with the Extra White cycle I am limited to Very Warm or Hot water temp and Max and High spin speeds. Delicate is limited to cold and warm temp and No Spin, Hold and Low and Medium spin. But if I use Custom Cycle then i can use whatever I want. The 4800 isnt as versatile as the 4840 but she is pretty darn close.
I went to the Home Depot Expo in Burlington and saw the washer in question...they want a whopping $2400 for the washer and close to $1500 for the dryer...they are nuts! I paid $1600 for my washer and $1100 for the dryer in Maine. Then I heard a sales guy tell a customer that Bosch, Whirlpool and Miele are all the same and made by the same company...when I heard that I said to the have no idea about these machines do you? He wasnt happy with me after I was thru with him.

Post# 286703 , Reply# 8   6/23/2008 at 05:09 (3,403 days old) by nmaineman36 ()        
W4800 control

here is a shot of the control panel

Post# 286704 , Reply# 9   6/23/2008 at 05:10 (3,403 days old) by nmaineman36 ()        
wash drum

HoneyComb drum

Post# 286741 , Reply# 10   6/23/2008 at 09:32 (3,402 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
oh Good for you Mike!

jetcone's profile picture
I couldn't believe the price tags on those machines! And did you notice or maybe they fixed it, but when I was there, they had the tags REVERSED so that the dryer cost $2400.

I'm glad you slammed the salesman!

Robert and I were in Nebraska Appliance Mart a few years ago and we heard the same line about manufacturer's and how they all are the same. STUPID!
We started by passing the run codes on their Bosch machine on the floor and sent it into high spin.

The dodo salesman came running back over and started yelling at us how did we do that? you can't run the machine dry it will ruin the bearings.
We told him who we were and that he was spreading incorrect information -----ooooooooooo did he get pissed then!
We told Greg we'd meet him out by the doors at that point!

I almost went looking for the store manager!

If you are going to sign yourself up for a job then you should learn that job. And learn your products!

Good for you Mike!

Nice machines BTW!

Post# 286742 , Reply# 11   6/23/2008 at 09:34 (3,402 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        

jetcone's profile picture
I don't see the holes you were talking about in the drum paddles, where does the water come out of the paddles?

Post# 286750 , Reply# 12   6/23/2008 at 10:07 (3,402 days old) by nmaineman36 ()        

There is only one lonely hole in each drum vane and thats at the end near the wall. If you look closely you can see it in the pic. The drum design keeps the water in it...if that makes any when the drum tumbles the load it will scoop the water and onto the load. Hard to describe until you see it. The drum is also angled if you can tell in the pic. Not radically angled like a Newton built Maytag Neptune and the vanes are tapered...larger near the back and shorter to the front. The drum keeps a skim layer of water and the water is exchanged from the outer tub with each tumble. The washer uses 15 gallons per load or less depending on load size and options.

Post# 286753 , Reply# 13   6/23/2008 at 10:18 (3,402 days old) by nmaineman36 ()        

Oh before I forget...the price tags were still reversed. I went the Expo looking for Persil since the Miele website said they sold it there. So on Saturday I drove from Lynn to Burlington...not a far drive but at these gas prices..egads. Anyways I asked a salesperson and he didnt know what it was. Now I figured that they sold Miele they should know. Nope not a one knew. Makes me think twice about buying from them. Besides they dont service if you need it.
On the Nebraska Furniture the place and when i lived on Omaha I loved going there. My ex and I bought an Amana side by side fridge from them. About a year later a handle came off....broke in my hand. Anyways went to the Mart to see if I could get a new handle. They dont have a parts dept and not only that they wouldnt help. I told the guy i should have bought it from Sears and the guy told me that Sears doesnt have a parts Dept. I was pissed since I caught him not knowing what he was talking about. The Mart sure loves to take your money but when it comes time to service they are not there. So I had to go to a parts place...I wanna say on Grover St in Omaha that sold Amana parts. I had to buy 2 handles for the fridge/ Maddening.

Post# 286794 , Reply# 14   6/23/2008 at 14:24 (3,402 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi Jon,

The paddles seem to be different on the 4XXX Series. On the 5 and 6kg machines, they have a row of perforations up and down their length. The 4XXX series doesnt make it into Australia.

Hi Panthera,

I've never had anything damaged, however I look at what happens to towels, sheets and even things like lace and they always seem to end up with dimples and I'm just not sure how that translates into fabrics that stretch but dont necessarily bounce back to normal. It could depend on how the cycle is programmed I guess. My W423 on woolens does 1 900RPM burst, I fiddled with Mums on the weekend and it does a Single burst spin, whereas the Honeycomb machine spins for a couple of minutes. I guess if its a short sharp burst, there isnt the time to stretch things out, unlike the longer spin time on a cottons cycle.

Post# 286823 , Reply# 15   6/23/2008 at 16:00 (3,402 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
According to some consumer magazine reports on the Miele honeycomb drum, the benefits aren't that spectacular, especially for the price.

Aside from heavy cotton terry towels, and perhaps other heavy items like bath mats and succh there aren't that many items which require long fast final extractions. Woolens are fine with 1000 to 1200 rpms for a quick 30sec burst. Permanent Press and other fabrics wholly or partially made from man made fibers shouldn't be spun much if at all; and certianly not at speeds >1000 rpms.

One supposes all this hype to save energy in the dryer has lead to the current trend of high spin extractions that last for ever, bascially spinning the heck out of items until almost every bit of water is extracted, then of course there is less work for a tumble dryer to do. However spinning items beyond a certian point in time does and or spin speed does not increase extraction that much, but can lead to fabric damage over time if done often enough.

One finds for many items, including dress shirts, linens and so forth, using the "graduated spin" series then allowing items to drip dry on the lines gives much better results. Certianly cuts down on creasing, which means less ironing pour petite Moi.

Miele isn't the first to come out with a wash tub with smaller drain holes. IIRC there was a UK washer from way back,which essentially had a solid inner tub, with small slits around the back of the drum for water to leave.

Consider also small and or less holes means one is moving towards a soild tub design, which uses less water because not much water is held between the two tubs. This is what the Milnor quote above alludes to; more water between tubs means more water to slosh about and is lifted and poured over the laundry. Instead of relying on various systems to force water through the wash (which is how all front loaders clean), gravity does the work. Simple, no muss, no fuss.


Post# 287328 , Reply# 16   6/25/2008 at 23:20 (3,400 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Went with a friend to the local laundromat to assist in doing some (ok, well lots( of bed linens that had piled up, much of which covered in cat hair, hence desire to use the commercial units. It struck me there that the large SQ washing machines got out much more pet hair than say my Miele, and the rather aggressive wash action coupled with large cylinder probably had much to do with it.

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