Thread Number: 19496
Euro wash times vs. US wash times...
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Post# 313622   11/7/2008 at 11:24 (3,321 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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How long does the wash cycle usually take on Euro washers? I've been thinking that the reason I'm having such trouble with the Ariel Excel Gel and Persil may be related to the fact that my Miele W1215 only washes for 27 minutes on the Normal cycle with a full load and 43 minutes on the whites cycle with a full load. My whites loads are usually on the small side and so the machine cuts the wash time to 36 minutes! Is that drastically different from Euro wash times? I've been using the extended option and am wondering what else I can do? Is there a way to change the programming to wash using Euro cycles? Because from my understanding, Euro wash times seems to be a LOT longer than US wash times!




Post# 313625 , Reply# 1   11/7/2008 at 11:40 (3,321 days old) by cbosch ()        
euro wash times

on my miele the cottons wash at 60 is 1hr49 and the minimum iron cycle is 1.19. have tried Arieal gel and think its ok but I do prefer presil non bio liqui gel, better bubbles!

Post# 313626 , Reply# 2   11/7/2008 at 11:46 (3,321 days old) by mielabor ()        

Normal wash for me is 1h50m. Actual washing is ca. 1h10m. Rest is for rinsing and spinning. Delicate wash is 45m. Actual washing ca. 25 m. Rest rinsing and spinning. My old Miele had about the same durations. For normal wash the first 10m. or so are cold, then heating starts. With delicate wash heating starts immediately.

Post# 313632 , Reply# 3   11/7/2008 at 12:25 (3,321 days old) by variomatic ()        
Euro washtimes are way too long!!

I hate european washers, they seem to wash endless. My AEG needs up to 2:23 h for a boilwash and 30° normal cycle needs 1:54h! mainwash is about 1 hour.
But I prefer using the short wash cycle in order to save time and to protect and care my washing. 30 min for mainwash seems enough for my laundry and 2 rinses seem to be sufficient to get rid of the suds. I like using Ariel coz it actaully removes stains best.


Post# 313644 , Reply# 4   11/7/2008 at 13:44 (3,321 days old) by revvinkevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
I could be wrong but..........

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My understanding of US spec washers vs. European spec washers and their cycle times is.........

Here in the US we have externally heated water supplies (water heaters) and washers have both HOT and COLD water supply lines connected to them, thus, get the desired water tempature WHEN the washer fills.

From what I have seen in Germany, Italy and Hong Kong, the Euro spec washers have only a COLD water supply line connected to them and use an internal heater to, yes you guessed it, heat the water for anything beyond cold.

Obviously it takes TIME to heat the water (and the wet cloths) from cold to the desired degree of hot-ness (hows that for a word? LOL) for the chosen wash cycle.

Time required to heat water = longer cycle times.



Post# 313648 , Reply# 5   11/7/2008 at 13:50 (3,321 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Are you talking about the wash time or the whole cycle time, including rinses and spin ?
Is it a cold fill machine ?
My Miele is set to 45 min wash time on a regular cotton cycle and if the extended button is pressed it is 75 min. A whole cycle can easily take 2 hours to complete.
I remember your socks did not come clean in the Ariel Excel thread. May I ask what type of Persil gives you poor results, German or UK one, powder or liquid ?


Post# 313651 , Reply# 6   11/7/2008 at 13:59 (3,321 days old) by revvinkevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
Yes I referred to cycle time but......

revvinkevin's profile picture
...the wash time directly effects the total cycle time.



Post# 313653 , Reply# 7   11/7/2008 at 14:17 (3,321 days old) by seamusuk (Dover Kent UK)        
A suggestion.....

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Jamie

Your Miele is 220V and has a heater right??

Id suggest putting a Y adaptor on the cold feed and trying it as cold fill only. Euro detergent is designed with an enzyme stage thats designed to work as the water heats- putting hot water in at this stage wont help things.

Using cold will probably extend the wash times as well.

If you were feeling brave I dont know if Miele US would be prepared to give it a Euro PC update???

Seamus


Post# 313658 , Reply# 8   11/7/2008 at 14:52 (3,321 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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The main wash on our Electrolux takes approx.

25 min. for a cold quick wash
35 min. for a 104F quick wash
40 min. for a 140F quick wash
70 min. for a 104/140F regular wash
100 min. for a 140 wash on the energy saving cycle

Rinsing & spinning adds another 30 to 40 minutes.

Have tried the Excel stuff and am not too pleased, either.

Alex


Post# 313663 , Reply# 9   11/7/2008 at 15:33 (3,321 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

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Wash times on "European" washing machines reflect several factors.

First, time is allowed to heat water (tap cold or warm) to whatever temperature desired. Some Euro front loaders have their thermostats routed through the timer, much like dishwashers and will hold the heating portion of the cycle untilt he proper temp is reached, (however long that may take). Other machines simply are programmed to allow certain time parameters for heating water, once that time is up machine will advance to main washing portion of the cycle, regardless of water temperature. However most if not all of the these machines will continue to heat the water until it reaches the set temp. However should the wash cycle time out before the temp is reached, then that is the end of that.

To be fair on 220v or even 400v power, heating 8 to 10 gallons of water from 80F to 140F or even 200F isn't going to take that much time. With American front loaders running on 120F, there probably are going to be some problems.

Long wash times also are a reflecton of European detergents, which combine oxygen bleaches, and perhaps enzymes.

The cold or cool water start, prevents protien stains from being set.

Warm water period is to activate enzymes, which worked best at 100F to 120F

Hot to boiling wash period was to give the oxgyen bleach proper temperature and time to work.

Being as all this may, modern detergents on Europe are more and more designed to work in "quick cycle" wash times. This is due mainly to advances in detergent chemistry which allow the above chemicals to work in cold, cool and warm water. Thus cleaning takes place rather quickly, instead of a long drawn out process.

There are enzymes that will work in cold and warm water.
Activated oxygen bleaches or percarbonate bleach (works in cold water, unlike perborate which needs hot water), mean bleaching action can start sooner and is complete even in warm water.

Your problems with Ariel and Persil may be related to your water quality and types of soil, and not merely a short cycle problem

Try adding some STPP along with your Persil. In my Miele normally use 2 tablespoons of Persil "Sensitive" along with 2 teaspoons to one tablespoon of STPP, for a full (5kg) wash load, and find everything comes out great. If you are in the habit of wearing socks around the home as "slippers", then you have ground in dirt, which will take some work to shift even under the best situations. However phosphates are great at removing clay based soils from laundry.

L.


Post# 313665 , Reply# 10   11/7/2008 at 15:48 (3,321 days old) by favorit ()        
Try Normal + Extended

Jamie,
if it isn't enough, use the soak option too (soak water is used for main wash too).
In EU mieles "extended" is the default setting, we have "short" option . 4 or 5 years ago the W2000 series (the MrBoilwash one, I guess) had default short washing times, then miele went back on tradition

Your W1215 is a specific model for US market so it has US timings as default setting BUT ... as my W844 has default EU settings, yet entering in service mode it is possible to switch to US/AU/Swedish programme timings, MAYBE your machine can do it too. Look for service manual

I bet your "sensitive" option can be customized to all the 4 ways as the EU equivalent "water plus" option

Carlo


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Post# 313680 , Reply# 11   11/7/2008 at 17:18 (3,321 days old) by liberator1509 (Ireland)        
Long wash times - a recent phenomenon

European h-axis washers have very long wash cycles, largely dictated by the requirements to meet EU performance ratings - the AAA rating being the nominal 'best'.

Before the advent of EU ratings, h-axis washers in Ireland and the UK had significantly shorter cycles, partly because hot and cold fill was common (only disappearing here in the last few years), and more significantly because the machines used much more water than is deemed acceptable now. Lower water levels require more mechanical action to remove dirt, so tumbling time is increased. A by-product is that the action is far rougher - formerly the tumbling action was cushioned by the water in the tub (and the turbulence in the water would help the washing action), now the laundry is effectively thrown against the wall of the wash-drum - rather like beating the laundry against a rock (albeit a stainless steel one - progress eh?). US and AU readers should probably read through the ad-men propaganda that describe the 'new' tumbling action HE washers as gentler on laundry that top-loaders - I doubt there is very much in it in the long term.

The cold-fill issue is a bit misleading - someone else has noted that the 14-20 litres of water in the average wash component of a cycle wouldn't take too long to raise with a 2.5kW heater on 220v. The 'washing powders perform better' stuff is a bit of ad-men work too - UK detergents are for all intents and purpose 'universal' - with different ingredients that are effective at different temperatures - enzymes at cool and warm temperatures and bleaches at higher temperatures. Organic stains set of course at high temps, but wash out in cool and warm water.

My Bosch FL is sold with claimed total cycles times a few minutes proud of an hour at 40 (US warm) and 60 (US hot) on a cotton cycle - not bad for a front loader, and ostensibly far better than much of the competition. The rub is that none of the basic default cycles is actually A rated!! To achieve the mythical A for performance, one has to select a 'Wash Plus' option which surprise, surprise doubles the total cycle time. Bosch users will know that there is a default 60 stains cycle - which takes over two hours. In addition the rinsing is poor even with the extra water option - especially if liquid detergents are used. Two hours might not seem excessive if one has one load to complete and other things to get on with - after all the washer is automatic, but when one has a back-log if is a total irritation - four loads takes longer than the average working day. I find this totally infuriating when one thinks that the now abandoned Hotpoint V-axis Top Loader would do a 60 cycle in about 40 minutes, with outstanding results (and that was in spite of an EU G rating). In other words, where an EU h-axis machine would take 8 hours for four loads, an American TL would have that done in about an hour - progress indeed...

So the laudable aims of conservation have given us washers that take much longer to complete their cycles. The Cold-Fill only business is now subject to the onset of a somewhat ironic back-lash, as people with green-sourced hot-water (from solar/geo-thermal etc) are wondering why they can't use this in the washers. I predict a full-circle point where we see manufacturers selling us Hot and Cold fill machines as the latest new eco-feature. Indeed I recently read an article in a 'How to be Green' directory which gave as advice point 3 'connect the washer to fill with hot water which will be more economical than heating it in the machine'....

Incidentally have any US readers tried the new Maytag Bravos with built-in heater? These machines seem like a great idea (and look cool) - I wish Maytag would bring them to the UK...I'd buy one



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Post# 313688 , Reply# 12   11/7/2008 at 17:54 (3,321 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

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One reason I love my vintage Miele is that it has a mechanical timer. Can adapt any cycle to suit my needs, rather than allowing the machine to decide. This very handy when one has lots of laundry to get done, and not lots of time.

Cold Fills are one of the biggest "lies" being thrown around these days for front loaders. The concept does make sense in many parts of Europe, the UK and other parts of the world where central hot water heaters are unknown. Many French kitchens for instance still have a small on demand hot water heater in the kitchen near the tap, another in the bathroom and that is it. So if the washing machine is no where near either, it makes sense to let it take in cold water and get on with heating. However if one has a central source of hot water, and that water is going to be heated regardless, the savings by cold filling aren't what they are cracked up to be.

Consider many European front loaders do not heat water at full blast, but rather gradually, supposedly this is better for textiles. Well it also adds time to the cycle.


Post# 313714 , Reply# 13   11/8/2008 at 01:39 (3,321 days old) by revvinkevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
Thank you David...

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... for a very complete and thorough explanation!!!! That was excellent!

Post# 313721 , Reply# 14   11/8/2008 at 04:03 (3,321 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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"I predict a full-circle point where we see manufacturers selling us Hot and Cold fill machines as the latest new eco-feature."

It already happened! Both Bosch/Siemens and Miele have released "Eco" washing machines on the German market which have a hot/cold fill.


Post# 313728 , Reply# 15   11/8/2008 at 06:49 (3,320 days old) by favorit ()        
Hints to confirm what Launderess and Liberator wrote

#The lie "cold fill = energy saving" : hot & cold fill EU FL#

- Here in Italy Zerowatt, Philco, Zanussi and even Candy made some washers with double fill to save energy

-Miele has ever suggested a double fill model for EU households who have solar/gaz/heat pump HW. In the last decade they are W913-W929-W3525-W3841. They can operate with hot/cold fill or rain/potable fill or well/potable fill. By the way, washing times are the same of the cold-fill-only models

-Now Zanussi too does it again. As here solar heated water is getting common, they sell SUNNY, a double fill machine. Very interesting feature : one can switch to cold fill only simply by pressing a button - see link - sorry, it's in italian... ask and i'll translate :)

#Longer times have to do with lower water levels too#

-In the early 70ies miele claimed to run the whole boilwash cycle by 70 minutes (higher levels & monster internal heaters)

- My 80ies W780 has 15 min prewash + 45 min wash whatever temp you choose vs the 10 min preW + 75 min W on the W844

- Consider the PW5065 Little Giant. It has the same drum size (53 litres) as EU household models BUT it takes only 49 mins to run a 60C/140F whole cycle. Ok, it's double fill and it has a powerful internal heaters. Just have a look on its user manual : programme sequence shows that certain "commercial" programmes (towelling, kitchen linen,table linen ...) run with higher water levels than the standard cotton programme. This happens to have both wash performance & short times





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Post# 313738 , Reply# 16   11/8/2008 at 08:10 (3,320 days old) by 2drumsallergy ()        
Heating in UK Front Loaders

Hi David liberator1509,
Your post is spot on and I enjoyed reading it.

I just want to add something as an Engineer (Now retired due to ill health).

I can assure you that 99% of Front loaders sold in the UK do heat to the selected water temperature. There is an exception though on the 95C cycles the maximum temp reached is usually 85C, this is by design as most washers are fitted with 85C thermostats. The new electronic sensor designs are of course linked to Microprocessor Controls which are programmed to cut the heater at 85C.
The only washers I recall that had 95C stats were the old Philco Bendix machines, models 7142a,7147, 7147a, 7147b, 7147pb, the later 7148, 7168 and 71258 had 85C stats. Like most UK Front Loaders the thermostats were linked to the timer; with the timer in the heat position the wash rhythm was reduced and the timer was locked until the temperature was reached, when the thermostat closed the timer was able to advance through the cycle.

There were some less common machines that used a much less accurate timed heating system, this system was usually found on bottom end machines.

David


Post# 313790 , Reply# 17   11/8/2008 at 17:03 (3,320 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
At least you're not alone, Pulsator

logixx's profile picture
Have received an email from a friend of mine who is using Ariel Excel in his Miele 1986 and reported having the same problem with white socks.

I generally wonder what kind of cleaning one can expect from a liquid? Maybe I'll sacrifice a white towel of mine and just try it out...

Alex


Post# 313808 , Reply# 18   11/8/2008 at 20:53 (3,320 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA)        

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I don't know how it worked in the EU, but here we had the wringers for a long time before automatics came out. Even then, women typically washed for 10-15 minutes, enough time to rinse twice the previous load with wringing in between. Detergent manufacturers knowing this developed their products to work well in relatively short order. When the switch to automatics came about, detergents were already available for about a 10 minute wash. Since automatics saved the homemaker so much time and effort, short and efficient wash cycles mimicked how the wringer was used.

While the first automatics were frontloaders, Bendix gave a relatively long prewash at 6 mintes before the 9 minute main wash, thoroughly removing the dirt (we know rinsing was another matter). Westinghouse had a significantly longer wash times (IIRC about 20 minutes). The war set everything behind, but post-war was the toploading automatic boom.

Does anyone know why frontloaders were so much more popular in EU than tops? Were agitator wringers and twinnies the order of the day before the war, or was it semi-automatic H-axis washers that easily converted to automatics?


Post# 313821 , Reply# 19   11/9/2008 at 00:10 (3,320 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

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Many European and UK homes/kitchens simply aren't as large as those found in the United States. Front loading washing machines are easily fitted into small kitchens or some other area of a tiny apartment such as a bathroom or WC.

Yes, twin-tubs, and wringer were around in Europe, just look at some of the photos posted by members from the EU. Or, check out various European appliance maker's history museums, such as Miele's or V-Zug's.

Main differnce between European wringers and twin-tubs versus their American cousins, is the former most always had some sort of heating system (electric, wood or coal fire), to accomodate the boil washing European housewives and laundries wouldn't be without.

L.


Post# 313823 , Reply# 20   11/9/2008 at 00:38 (3,320 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

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The explanation I have been given about wash cycle times, water consumption and overall quality of the wash does come down to a few things..

Water consumption

Older front load machines used at least 50% more water than they do now. My old Australian built Hoover Electra was rated at 4kg and used 90ltrs or 22.5ltrs:kg....my 2 1/2 yr old Westinghouse (Zanussi-electrolux) is rated at 6.5kg and 72ltrs or 11.1ltrs:kg.....thats less than half the water and the Electa was considered efficient!

Detergents

Are more complex chemically than they used to be and with the lower water levels, lower phosphate content need longer to be effective on FULL loads...

Capacity and Load used

Machines now hold more - technically. Try weighing out the capacity of your machine and then getting it all in. Most of us only put enough in the drum for it to be 'comfortably full'. I was always told to put enough in so that it 'moves back and forth' as you try to put more in...then take 1 medium sized item out. It has never let me down. I can wash on the 40c Quick wash and get A1 results as my load is about 2/3rds rated capacity.

So try not putting quite as much in, use a good powder detergent and warm water and see how you go....and your machine should last longer too...spinning capacity weight every time does horrible things to bearings...

Oh, and my machines normal 40c = 117min...quick = 68...



Post# 313830 , Reply# 21   11/9/2008 at 05:09 (3,320 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi Jamie,

I have a W4888 Miele which I've used programmed in AU and Euro Modes.

In AU mode a Cottons 60degC takes 40mins on normal or approx 2:05 on Intensive.

In Euro Mode the same cycle takes about 1:10 on normal or 1:50 on Intensive.

This machine is hot and cold fill and and I've tried it as cold only as well as hot and cold and it performs pretty well either way. The issues I found with the AU Mode is that quite often it would complete it's last top up fill and then drain 2 or 3 minutes later. This left me wondering how wet things were getting for the majority of cycles. I've found that the extra 20 minutes makes a difference. I dont use a Euro Powder but Drive matic which is loaded to the eyeballs with Phosphates and other environmental nasties, but gosh it does a great job. Have you tried using a little oxygen bleach?

Before this one, I had a W2515 which was cold fill only, it still only took 40 minutes for a cottons 60 cycle, so the 2.4kw heater is going to be able to heat cold to hot in that time. My 1970's Miele takes 70 minutes for light soil or 2:10 for heavy soil. But it has a 3.2KW heater which it needs for the huge amounts of water it uses. (130L per cycle)

If you're using the extended option (Same as my Intensive) how long does that push the cycle out to?

Cheers,

Nathan


Post# 313831 , Reply# 22   11/9/2008 at 05:32 (3,320 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

One other thing in relation to Ariel Powder, I spent a ludicrous amount of money on a large box about 3 years ago, and found that the rinsing was terrible. Even at 15 or 20mls per load and water plus turned on, it would still finish a cycle with thick creamy suds left behind. At that time we had a water hardness of about 3deg.

I gave it to Michaels mum and she finished the rest of the box off in her DD Whirlpool without issue.


Post# 313833 , Reply# 23   11/9/2008 at 05:58 (3,320 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Europe

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Overhere in Europe wringers were also used for a very long time. The first automatic washer that was installed in a home in the Netherlands was a Bendix from the USA. In 1954 Constructa introduced the first European fully automatic frontloader on the market. V-Zug in Switzerland already had introduced an H-axis toploader in 1950, but that wasn't fully automatic, you had to manually adjust the programme settings. That was one of the few semi-automatics that we got here in Europe. No need of handling wet laundry though, it was all done in one drum including spinning.

Why Constructa and V-Zug chose for H-axis machines? I'm not sure about that. I don't think space was the reason, those early frontloaders were bolt down machines, not suitable for installing under a kitchen counter. Most of them had a soap dispenser on top so that made an under the counter installation impossible too. And these frontloaders were wider than modern European machines. Modern European frontloaders have a standard width of 60cm (23 something inches) while the older frontloaders were 68 cm or thereabout.

My wild guess is that because of the different way of heating water (most smaller houses and apartments had flow through water heaters, although in the UK that was different I think) it took longer to fill a washer than it did in the USA from a tank water heater. They designed a washer with a heating element. That wasn't a problem at all because 220V had become a standard by then and 380V was easy to get. Heating elements of 6000 Watts weren't unusual in early frontloaders. It made more sense though to heat a smaller amount of water in a frontloader than a full tub of water in a toploader.

Here's an ad for an early Constructa frontloader.


Post# 313922 , Reply# 24   11/9/2008 at 13:43 (3,319 days old) by johnny (cleveland ohio)        
the Greek story

At Greece the first automatic washer was a Candy and it was called "Candy Robot".
Before that; many many people used twin-tub washers with agitator.
My grandmother told me that at the 60's a Toploader washer (she didnt remember brant) with agitator and spin cycle was being advertised. It didn't sold too much because it needed hot water!! At the 60's the only way to heat water was Electricity and fire! heating water all day was something expensive because the electricity was too expensive!! at the middle of 60's Izola (a Greek company) made the "Apollo" series of automatic washers with internal water heater and very very good price! Befoce Iozla the only automatics were Miele, Candy, Siemens , Indesit and they were expensive (5,6 salaries for a middle class citizen).
Now after 40 years american type washers comming to Greece ! the electricity is still expensive but Gaz came to our homes (and gaz heaters too). The 60% of consumers buys Hot field washers ; and with short times of wash! The new electrolux with variable wash time is top listed.
The most people want a cycle being completed in 50 min.
I bought a second hand Maytag Nepture and now I have a full load ready in 45 min!
P.S. Water at greece is VERY CHEAP! we pay 20 per year!! (so we dont have any problem with High water level)

Now about the detergent; I use liquid only for darks.
Once I tried to wash whites at 95c (using my electrolux Timeline) with Ariel liquid and the result wasn't so good.


Post# 313953 , Reply# 25   11/9/2008 at 16:24 (3,319 days old) by favorit ()        
drum volume - capacity

I do agree with Rohnic about capacity. The load ratio for cottons is 1:10 - meaning each kg of load requires 10 cubic decimetres (also said "litres"). Commercial machines follow this standard, in household washers things are .. how to say ... "flexible"

Since Axxis and Dreamspace/Big (Duet euro versions) entered EU markets, other machines "grew up" their capacity (even other BSH and Whirlpool). The idea was to keep the standard dimensions 60x60x85 cm. For sure the 92 litre Duet drum can't fit in. So .....

... a 42 litre drum (4.5 kg) now is rated 5 kg or even 5.5
a 46/47 litre (5 kg) now is 6 kg
a 53/54 litre (5.5 kg) now is 6 kg or even 7 chez zannolux
a 60/63 litre (6 kg) now "can" hold 8 kg (zannies-aegs-whirlies)

This is quite evident : if you compare i.e. y2002 and y2007 Aeg or Zanussi brochures, now they are beyond Bobloading mode

Not to mention the Hoover Vortmax "9 kg" ....

Even Miele started kidding (perhaps only here in Italy till now ): i.e we've no more W3923 (6 kg) but W3943 (6.5 kg). I bet both machines have the same drum, otherwise these "bigger" 6.5kg mieles had come out earlier in Germany


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Post# 313981 , Reply# 26   11/9/2008 at 18:31 (3,319 days old) by askomiele (belgium)        

Capacity right big laugh over here. If I look at what I can fit in my olympia and my miele... it's still al lot and sometimes more then 5 kg (both machines are rated 5). Even a thick duvet fits in my miele, because of the smaller door it doesn't fit in my olympia. Note that the problem is not really the washingmachine, but the dryers! Once a 111 liter drum was only big enough to dry 4.5-5kg, now the same load has to get dry in a drum of 100 liter at max. The 111 liter is big enough to dry an 8 kg load? Still not impressed. Mostly because of the wrinkling, longer drying times and no space for sheets to move freely I think that it would be a lot nice for machine companies to use the ratio 1:10 for washer and thinks its 1:20 for dryer (or is that too large, thought it once 1.5 times the washer ratio?)

Post# 313983 , Reply# 27   11/9/2008 at 18:44 (3,319 days old) by mrx ()        
Hot water in Europe

There's a bit of a myth going around on this board that European houses don't generally have central hot water heating. This is simply not true, the vast majority of European houses do have hot water systems which are broadly similar to US systems.

The main reason why washing machines do not take a hot fill anymore is because the fill levels are so low. The machine isn't drawing hot water for long enough to clear the 'lag' of cold water in the plumbing. It makes hot fill pretty pointless. So, it was simply done away with. As machines became more and more water efficient, the hot valves vanished.

Also, because the vast majority of washing in Europe is done at 30 to 40C, it makes more sense to simply heat the water in the drum. The machines have always had heaters anyway and it provides a much more accurate level of control over the water temperature than trying to mix hot and cold water.

There's also a risk with hot fills that you can get water that's much hotter than 60C, particularly in older homes where hot water systems may not be as controlled. This risks damage to clothes and law suits for washing machine manufactures.

As a result of all that, they simply stopped including a hot fill valve in their machines, it's not a case that there is no source of hot water in most homes. Even in the old days, when most machines did have 2 fill valves, if there was no hot water source available you just used a Y fitting to split the cold feed and connected it to both the hot and cold valves on the machine so that it would always fill cold.

While it is true that some older houses in Europe may have instantaneous local water heaters under sinks etc, it's certainly not the norm. The majority of homes do have central heating and normal hot water supplies.


Post# 313988 , Reply# 28   11/9/2008 at 19:25 (3,319 days old) by favorit ()        
mrx - eurHot water

It is not a myth. You're true regarding nowadays. But not about the situation in the 50ies and the 60ies. Surf in the www.waschmaschinen-forum.de/... --->bildes der tag -->archiv . Here you can find some old ads that show those heaters over the kitchen sinks (one AEG for sure, over a drop down lavamat)

My granny in the 50ies had a "Elbow Grease" washboard, water had to be pumped from the well with the same EG tech (turning the pump wheel), water heater was a tank in the wood fire range.....



Post# 314205 , Reply# 29   11/10/2008 at 17:43 (3,318 days old) by liberator1509 (Ireland)        
Hot water for Europe, and why we have front-loaders...

Mrx, I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark with your reasoning about cold-fill only. There are a variety of reasons why EU machines are (now) cold-fill, and one is the tradition that in many parts of Europe, central hot-water systems were comparatively rare until recently. The central-heating phenomenon was a feature of the 1970s and 1980s in Ireland and the UK alone. Prior to that, if houses had a 'central' hot-water system, it was generally based around a solid-fuel range cooker, or back-boiler (an open fire that has a water boiler attached) - just think of the endless quantities of Victorian and Edwardian houses in Ireland and the UK that weren't equipped with heating until very late in the 20th century. If the house was on the 'town-gas', hot water might come from a geyser over the kitchen sink. Also remember that rural-electrification was still just reaching parts of Ireland as late as the 1960s, in spite of having dated from the Siemens-Schuckert work at Ardnacrusha in the 1920s and 30s. Others might like to comment on other parts of Europe, but I'd wager that you'll find similar evolution there too. Mainland EU washers are often located in laundry rooms with cold-supply only (like the commonly found wash-kitchen in Germany aprtments), so dual-fill washers were impractical.

Cost of living and wages have had a major impact on this too - in the 1960s a industrial 'professional' starting salary was in the region of 1000 per annum. Nowadays an equivalent role would attract 40 times that amount. If we whizz back say 45 years, you'll find an automatic washer (like an English Electric or Hotpoint) cost about 105 in the UK - that's 10% of an annual professional salary!!! In modern terms, that would mean the equivalent washer should cost 4000 (that'd be a commercial model then...). So it is fair to say that automatics were out of reach of most people in the 1960s, and as such the twin-tub at reigned supreme from the 60s through to the late 70s. Hyper inflation the 70s also has an impact, but as production increased, costs could be saved and gradually machines got cheaper (add in mechanised production and you save a lot) - and the quality dropped. If you compare the engineering complexity of a 1960s Hoover Keymatic, English Electric Liberator or Hotpoint 1500 to a modern machine you'll see that every aspect has been engineered down to minimize cost. The separate chassis gave way to cheaper monocoque design, plastic replaced metal, concrete replaced cast iron and clutch drives gave way to simply bad balance control.

Towards the end of twintub production, the machines were 'unrealistically' priced for the market - almost 400 for a Hotpoint - way more than a cheap automatic, and a reflection that volume fall-off and build costs were the down-fall. Ditto the Hotpoint TL - just too expensive to build and still make a profit and not enough people to buy them. The market expects to pay very little, so manufacturers have to make machines as cheaply as possible to remain competitive and produce washers that cost as little as 150. You'd be amazed at what lengths manufacturers will go to keep costs low, and profit margins high - so if dropping a water valve and a hose pipe saves say 1 per machine and you make a million a year, you're saving a lot! As the former UK marques are now owned by EU (Italian to be precise) firms, 'manufacturing rationalisation and harmonisation' would mean it only sensible to eliminate regional features that are not required in the general market - so the UK/Ireland hot valve has gone! In order to smooth the change, we're sold this is a great advance, saving us lots of wasted hot water and money, and promising better detergent performance - this is marketing propaganda to cover up a very obvious cost-cutting/rationalisation exercise. As someone else noted, the German manufacturers are now offering hot-fill as an eco-option (who'd have credited it) - I bet we'll be asked to pay more for this!!!

As to why we have front-loaders - hard to say...in Ireland and UK in the 60s we had every possible type of automatic - agitator (Hotpoint, Servis and Frigidaire), top-loading h-axis (Phillips etc), and front loading, as well as the unique hybrid Hoover Keymatic. I guess the fact that the US Bendix machine as one of the first to be manufactured in mainland Europe had an big influence on design. Washers are generally fitted in kitchens or bathrooms in Europe, with only very much larger houses have laundry rooms, so with the advent of the fitted kitchen (again in the late 70s), under-counter washers won the day...


Post# 314212 , Reply# 30   11/10/2008 at 18:48 (3,318 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
"As someone else noted, the German manufacturers are now offering hot-fill as an eco-option (who'd have credited it) - I bet we'll be asked to pay more for this!!!"

That was me. The two models sold by Miele are the AllWater washer, which has been around for several years and the Softtronic W 1747 WPS EcoLine. Found the later one selling online for about 1100 Euros.


Post# 314234 , Reply# 31   11/10/2008 at 20:40 (3,318 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

A hot fill?

This should be interesting after all the poo-pooing that the crowds over the pond have dished out over doing it that way.


Post# 314294 , Reply# 32   11/11/2008 at 05:10 (3,318 days old) by mrx ()        

Well, the major problem as I would see it for hot fill to work properly you need a thermostatic valve, similar to that on a shower. Otherwise, you do genuinely risk dumping in near boiling water on top of clothes. It's fine for a boil wash, but it's EXTREMELY difficult to get accurate temperature control otherwise.

The only other option is to start filling cold, then add hot water in bursts constantly monitoring the wash temp.

Thermostatic valves are expensive components, just look at the price of a good shower valve.

In my experience, most machines on the market in Ireland in the 1970/80s only took a hot fill if you set them to a cycle that was 60C or hotter.

For 40C washes they filled cold and heated.


Post# 314326 , Reply# 33   11/11/2008 at 08:28 (3,317 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
David

jetcone's profile picture
thanks for the link on the new Maytags, I had not looked closely at them, I am very curious now! I love that flat blower in the dryer!!!

Jon



Post# 314355 , Reply# 34   11/11/2008 at 12:14 (3,317 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi MrX,

The hot and cold fill Miele, measure the temp in the tub as it goes. It starts with a cold fill straight into the drum to fill the sump and activate the eco valve, then switches to the detergent tray and starts filling with hot. Once the thermistor in the tub registers that the right temp has been reached it switches back to cold and then keeps alternating until full. Because the Miele fills between the inner and out tubs, it seems to mix ok without any problems.

I dont see that there is any aditional cost, other than that of the valve, and associated plumbing as the thermistor is already there.

Using hot and cold fill, shaves off only 4 or so minutes from the wash cycle, so from a time perspective it makes very little difference, the benefit would be if you had cheap hotwater on tap rather than electrically heating.

The Hoover Keymatic from the 60's fills on the same principal. It has a mecury filled thermostat underneath and it fills through the sump. When you use the Heated Wash, Hot and Cold fill Keyplate, it starts filling with hot until the required temp is met and then switches to cold for the rest of the fill. It will then heat the water to adjust the final temp.


Post# 314369 , Reply# 35   11/11/2008 at 14:27 (3,317 days old) by johnny (cleveland ohio)        
Using hot and cold fill, shaves off only 4 or so minutes fro

I had an old indesit and I it had hot water valve.
When my water heater had the correct temprature (60c) the 60c cottons cycle was completed in 60-70 minutes!
I dont think that the difference (hot fill or cold fill) is only 5 min.
My Indesit was using the hot valve only for 60c,70c,95c cycle
for 40c it was using a mix of cold water with less hot. after the filling the washer was using the heater to reach the correct temp.


Post# 314374 , Reply# 36   11/11/2008 at 15:04 (3,317 days old) by mrx ()        

Mercury filled thermostat ?! Wow, that sounds like something that would be an absolute NO WAY item these days.

Post# 314377 , Reply# 37   11/11/2008 at 15:34 (3,317 days old) by liberator1509 (Ireland)        
Temperature controlled fill

Hi all - wow what a 'hot' topic (sorry couldn't resist...) :-)

MRX - temperature controlled fill has been around for a long time, as others have noted here - for example Hotpoint introduced 'temperature sensed fill' in the New Generation series washers in the mid 1980s. This involved mixed fill on all programmes, with electronically monitored water temperature. Capillary/mercury/hydraulic thermostats disappeared in the early 70s, so unless you're dealing with a vintage machine, you'll be safe!

Johnny - I think the water heating time is not that big a time issue in front-loaders, certainly not with low water levels (though it certainly is with top loaders!), The long wash cycles in modern EU front loaders are a result over very low water levels - to achieve good dirt removal with low water, the mechanical component of the wash action needs to much longer.

Logixx - thanks for the info on the dual-fill Mieles - I wonder when that will filter through to other manufacturers? We're currently in a 'cold is the new hot' marketing campaign in the UK...thanks to P&G and their new Ariel Gel - it will be interesting to see if it catches on.

Jon - if you get to try the Maytag Bravos, I'd love to know what its like...I really want one of those - I hope May-pool bring out a 220v model for export!

D :-)



Post# 314379 , Reply# 38   11/11/2008 at 15:57 (3,317 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
No, it's true. On the current (German) All Water washer, connecting the appliance to hot water water (55C/130F) reduces the cycle time by max. nine minutes. The max. water temp allowed by Miele is 60C.

Hot water is used for washes of 40C and above. Warm rinses are used on all cycles of 50C and above; Permanent Press allows warm rinses even on a 40C cycle. The manual does not state a temperature for the warm rinse, only says it'll fill from both taps. Warm rinses can reduce overall water consumption by 10%. Wool and Silk cycles do not use the hot water fill.

Being called All Water, the machine may also be programmed to use well water, rainwater or softened water.


Post# 314384 , Reply# 39   11/11/2008 at 16:25 (3,317 days old) by favorit ()        
Johnny - hot fill and "washing time warranty"

Hi Johnny, about miele's hot fill Brisnat said it right.

In older machines it was difficult to have long washing times @ low temps. So many brands solved that with an ECO button to extend washing time.

Miele had another solution : the "washing time warranty"
Unless "short" option is selected, the machine runs a warm wash in the same time of a boilwash, as many other brands do too nowadays.

On my old timer controlled W480, this "warranty" works this way : when you choose 80-95C the timer skips some increments after heating. In the range cold--->70C it stops at everyone

@ 40C it takes 10 minutes less than the boilW ,@ 70C it is a little longer than @ 95C

When "short" is selected it works in the old way (every temp is routed into the timer in the same way), so heating time + 15 mins

In the Novotronics and Softronics the "warranty" makes a trade-off with the load sensor on the motor (smaller loads = shorter times)

Carlo






Post# 314391 , Reply# 40   11/11/2008 at 17:00 (3,317 days old) by favorit ()        
Hot & cold fill Zanussi Electrolux in EU ?

Haven't found the Sunny h&c fill w. elsewhere than on rex.it It's very strange, cause the IronAid dryer came out everywhere in EU at the same time.

Post# 314822 , Reply# 41   11/13/2008 at 15:56 (3,315 days old) by newwave1 (Lincoln, United Kingdom)        

newwave1's profile picture
I've just connected my new Bosch WFF2000 to hot And cold. It does help when using shorter programmes.

Darren


Post# 315132 , Reply# 42   11/14/2008 at 19:57 (3,314 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Space in French Kitchens?

launderess's profile picture
Post# 350286 , Reply# 43   5/20/2009 at 05:35 (3,128 days old) by paulinroyton (B)        
Wash Times

My Hotpoint Aqualtis AQXXF 149pm takes,

Whites, 2.23hrs, 60c
Coloureds 1.35hrs, 40c
Synthetics 1.10hrs, 40c
Fast Wash 30mins, 30c
Synthetics 1.25hrs, 60c
Shirts 1.15hrs, 40c
Silks 53mins, 30c
Wool 55mins, 40c
Duvets 1.34hrs 30c
Bed & Bath 1.52hrs 60c

Its a great machine, but takes so long to wash, you do have the time saver, but does not cut out the lenght of time very much.

Paul


Post# 350317 , Reply# 44   5/20/2009 at 08:41 (3,127 days old) by yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
many people don't understand and a common problem...in my new house the BRAINIACS who did the plumbing put the hot water heater on the other side of the house away from the kitchen and bath/laundry....it takes a long time for the hot water to get there....with my front loader only using about 3 gallons, if I want a hot wash I have to run water in the tub until it gets hot, otherwise it fills cold and by the time it gets hot the machine is done filling...same thing for the dishdrawer...water cools in the pipes, so when the machine calls for a refill its getting a cold fill and dishes don't get clean....I'm gonna have this moved...

Post# 350373 , Reply# 45   5/20/2009 at 13:16 (3,127 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

laundromat's profile picture
From what I was told by folks I met in England during my '93 trip to London for the Shakesspearien Festival they have anualy in November,I asked why they had machines that had no bleach dispenser.One of them said "We would rather boil the 'racing stripes' off our undies than to use a caustic,poluting chemical to get them out.We are in no hurry on wash day to do our chore because during that cycle,we can go to market,vacuum our floors,beat our rugs,walk our pets and work out." We here in America are so god damned spoiled and want everything right now.I call that McStupid.I do my laundry once a week.I am currently using a Staber washer that is in for service.So far,I have replaced its presure switch,balance switch,presure hose,and the mother board.Now,due to the receded water that swishes around the outer tub during the spin,I found there is a missing clamp that holds the sump hose going to the pump in an even keal with the pump.Currently,it just hangs down like an old boob causing water to rest and not drain into the pump properly.However,it is a good performer and the average cycle takes just over a half hour with a wash and two rinses.Realitively easy to work on but,you have to be "dainty" while replacing the cheapasss,plastic parts.Otherwise,as in my case,they break and you have to reorder and wait for another.They will not allow you to stock up on parts.That's because the Staber customers are suposed to do their own repair.They have no dealers or service companies that are authorised to searve their customers.

Post# 350392 , Reply# 46   5/20/2009 at 16:27 (3,127 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        

For what it's worth, I guess that after years of the housewife being tied to the kitchen sink minding her twin tub or wringer washer, the change to being able to bung the clothes in and walk away to take the kids to school, go shopping, do other chores or just sit and watch TV was a total revolution. Certainly here in the UK we went from labour intensive to labour free laundry and are so used to the long cycle times that we don't really know any different. I always have loads to be getting on with whilst the washing machine is on so the cycle times don't bother me. The only time I wish it could be quicker is when the weather is changeable and with imminent rain, a 2 hour wash cycle could make the difference between drying indoors or outdoors.

As for hot/cold fill, I have ALWAYS fitted a y-piece to all my washers to use cold water fill only. As has already been said, by the time the hot water pipes are purged of cold water, the machine has stopped taking on water and is into the cycle so to me, it is pretty pointless.


Post# 350397 , Reply# 47   5/20/2009 at 17:03 (3,127 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture
The Blomberg we had in the UK would only take cold water in if set to 30c or below, mixed on 40c and 50c and hot only on 60c. Mind you, the ancient Vaillant boiler had to be run not only to purge the lines, but to get some water up to any form of 'warm' before you started the machine....even though the machine was only 2 metres away from it.....



Post# 350400 , Reply# 48   5/20/2009 at 17:34 (3,127 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Oh my Miele W1070, unless the temperature dial is set to "cold" which effectively turns off the thermostat, should the machine sense incoming wash water temperature is higher than the one set, it will stop adding hot and add cold water to get the proper balance.

Installation manual makes it clear the washer MUST be hooked up to hot and cold water (or cold only, but still both hoses must be used), and one assumes the above is one of the reasons. It certianly would prevent "boiling" water from a hot water heater from being "dumped" onto laundry. Well unless the thermostat was dialed off, then that is whomever is doing the washing's problem.

As for European washer (front loader) long cycle times, was reading a rather interesting post on one of the UK washer/appliance repair boards. Such sites are similar to our group here and THS. DIY is VERY popular in the UK as well, so there a lots of posts from persons looking on how to do their own appliance repairs as well.

Anyway, the author of said site gave an interesting view of why today's Euro/UK front loaders take so long to wash, even when set to cool or warm water. Answer? Though manufacturers have produced larger drum tubs, the machines all still suffer from energy rating madates an or desires to use less water. So you have a 6kg, 7kg or larger unit having to wash with the same or only a tiny bit more water than the new standard for a 5kg unit. Obviously it is going to take longer to get laundry saturated with water/detergent solution, even when doing "wet wipe" washing.

If one looks at how much water a commercial or laundromat grade washer uses for the same rated laundry capacity, it is more than what domestic washers are forced to struggle with.

The above may also tie into why so many consumers are reporting increased wear and damage to their washing when using newer front loaders. Laundry tumbling to and fro with very little water is bound to create increased friction as textiles rub up against each other.



Post# 350403 , Reply# 49   5/20/2009 at 17:43 (3,127 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

~in my new house the BRAINIACS who did the plumbing put the hot water heater on the other side of the house away from the kitchen and bath/laundry....


There may be a reaon for it, but it may not yet be apparent to you! :-)

This may have been to keep the gas or the oil lines short or they may have needed to use a flue associated with the chimney of the fireplace.

Regardless, one can always have a return-loop added from the furthest point of piping realtive to the hot water heater. Use a small pump to reintroduce the cooled hot water back into the hot water heater by fitting a "T" behind the drain valve.

In order to control the electric pump, use a mometary contact switch,an ordinay *COUGH* toggleswitch or a 5-minute electric timer. If you really wnat to get creative, use an ordinary circulator relay and have 24v class-2(low-votage) wiring at each point-of-water-use location.

Of course insulating your hot water pipes is a "green" thing to do, with or without a new circulating "return" loop.


Le voila. C'est fait!


Post# 350412 , Reply# 50   5/20/2009 at 18:11 (3,127 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
European Wash Times Verus American

launderess's profile picture
One thing to remember, and one has stated this before, detergents are tested and marketed under the conditions of whatever local market the product is destined to be sold.

American laundry detergents were designed for the rather short (eight to perhaps fifteen minutes) wash times of top loading washing machines, and the rather dilute detergent to water ratio. That meaning one cup or less (or more depending upon soil, stain and water hardess levels), diluted into ten to twenty or more gallons of wash water.

As top loading washing machines until rather recently all tended to use the rather aggressive central beater (in all manner and sort of form) action, detergents while strong, did not require very high concentration levels. Remember the four variables of good laundry practice. By increasing the mechanical action (and or also water temperature), along with perhaps adding additionals chemicals (chlorine bleach), you can have shorter wash cycles and a "weaker" detergent.

OTHO detergents designed for front loaders have to cope with cleaning, stain removal, soil suspension, water hardness based upon at most about only five gallons of water for a wash cycle (probably a bit less on modern washers), and the reduced mechancial action of tumble style washing machines. Because the wash action is more gentle, off the bat one of the variables of good laundry practice has changed,and the others must be altered to compensate.

Notice you've not seen American laundry detergents, even those designed for "HE" washers redesigned for "short wash times", whilst many European/UK versions have.

L.



Post# 350423 , Reply# 51   5/20/2009 at 19:58 (3,127 days old) by yogitunes (New Jersey)        
Toggle...

yogitunes's profile picture
I have been looking into the recirculation pump...but also been thinking about 2 hot water heaters to split the useage...I have 2 dishwashers, 3 high effic washers, and 3 full bathrooms, one with a jacuzzi, have never run out of hot water but sometimes to take the load off of only one...

builders just put all equipment for the house in one corner...eventually I will have them moved to under the stairs which will put them in the center of the house....I have the same issue with heat/AC....one side chills/heats rapidly but the other half barely gets any...I did try to consider why they put them where they did...and I could see if the lines coming in were on that side but actually they don't...they cross over the entire house...even the well is on the north side of the house and they ran the pipes under the basement floor to the other side...I think what confused them is my house was a reversed design and they didn't reverse the basement plans...but just the same it should have been put in the center....like washer manufacturers...they don't think of what makes sense!



Post# 350456 , Reply# 52   5/20/2009 at 22:59 (3,127 days old) by paulinroyton (B)        
Wash Times

One thing with my hotpoint aqualtis aqxxf149pm, it has a delay start option, which I find so usefull. I time the machine so by 8am, or 9am my washing is done

Paul


Post# 350540 , Reply# 53   5/21/2009 at 08:02 (3,126 days old) by mrwash (Germany)        

mrwash's profile picture
My Miele Navitronic needs 2H 36 Mins in the Hygiene cycle with the option "extra rinse" X-D

Post# 350550 , Reply# 54   5/21/2009 at 08:29 (3,126 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture
Electrolux machines sold here are very similar to the versions sold in the UK, though ours tend to come from Thailand.

My Electrolux/Zanussi made Westinghouse is Italian made and has the following cycle times that I use regularly

Cotton 1200rpm spin
.........Normal......Quick
Cold.....1.44.........55
30c......1.51........1.01
40c......1.58........1.08 (wash component of Quick is about 40m @ 40c)
60c......2.00........1.15

Synthetic short 900rpm spin
Cold....................39
30c.....................45

There is also a Quick 30 programme I use often

30c....3kg....30m but it is let down by a 700rpm v.short spin

Additionally, whilst the machine is rated at 6.5kg (15lb), I run the quick cycles 80% of the time and with probably about a 4-4.5kg (9-10lb) load with great results.


Post# 350766 , Reply# 55   5/22/2009 at 10:00 (3,125 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Yep, our washer has the exact same cycle times as Chris' machine above. I use the Quick wash option all the time - with extra rinse.

Here are the cycle times for the UK version of the Duet washer. Look at the amazing SuperEco cycle - takes only five hours! But I really like how the washer adjusts to different amounts of laundry.

Full Programme Guide



Post# 350840 , Reply# 56   5/22/2009 at 19:04 (3,125 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture
I gather that those cycle times for the Duet are substantially different to the equivalent cycle on those sold in the US...

Post# 350906 , Reply# 57   5/23/2009 at 02:18 (3,125 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Duet/Dreamspace

Italian wash times and cycles are different!
Anyway, whirlpool has the longest cycles I have ever seen!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK


Post# 350914 , Reply# 58   5/23/2009 at 03:41 (3,125 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Five Hours?

launderess's profile picture
You have got to be kidding!

If this is the best modern front loading washing machines have to offer, one will hold onto the Miele until it literally turns to dust.


Post# 350923 , Reply# 59   5/23/2009 at 04:00 (3,125 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture
Why on earth would anyone need (or want) a 5hr cycle?



Post# 350990 , Reply# 60   5/23/2009 at 12:21 (3,124 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
It's all about advertising. By using the Super Eco cycle, Whirlpool can claim to have the most energy efficient 60C cycle on the market. Of course, there is no mentioning of the extremely long duration.

By the way, Whirlpool also has the longest cycle on a dishwasher: the Overnight cycle.


Post# 351069 , Reply# 61   5/23/2009 at 18:29 (3,124 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture
Bloody hell!

That cycle is also nearly 5hrs....!

I'll think twice before having a moan to salesmen (who generally know next to nothing) about cycle times on any machine again...


Post# 351070 , Reply# 62   5/23/2009 at 18:32 (3,124 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Thing To Remember About

launderess's profile picture
"Older" European front loading washing machines is that many heated water by time and not temperature. That is just as with vintage and some modern dishwashers the thermostat is not routed through the timer. Rather a set period of time is alloted for water to heat regardless of incoming water temp and or when (in some cases if) the water reaches set temperature.

My Miele W1070 has two sections on it's timer for heating water. One for the longer "normal" and another for "short". Even when wash water has reached the proper temperature a set on the thermostat, timer will not advance until alloted time is up.

Say if one chooses 120F as wash water temp, and fills the machine with warm water at about 110F, the thermostat clicks off quite soon. If one selects 100F and fills with the same or higher water, again the thermostat shuts off, however in all cases the timer does not advance out of the heating portion of the wash cycle regardless. Happily since this is a mechanical timer all one needs to do is nudge the thing along, and it goes into the main wash cycle.

Am not certian, but think this is what Miele calls "cycle gaurnantee" in the owner's manual. Damn fustrating.

Am wondering if modern totally electronic controlled washing machines have wash times controlled by temp, or allot a set period of time to heat water.

Still, the mind reels at the damage and wear that must happen to laundry being tumbled about for two, three or even five hours, all with very little water to help cushion all that rubbing and beating.

Oh yes, will keep my old Miele running for as long as one can! *LOL*



Post# 351071 , Reply# 63   5/23/2009 at 18:38 (3,124 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
I believe

ronhic's profile picture
...that there are some washing machines that will vary the cycle time depending on various factors...

- Absorbancy of load (more water = heavier load = longer cycle)
- turbidity of water (especially for rinse...e.g. mieles will add another)

and I am sure there are other factors too....

These are a few of the things I miss about my old Hoover Electra.

- Hot and cold intake. Our HWS is less than 3 feet from the tap
- Higher water levels...the wash particularly
- Top speed interim spins (OK it was only 800rpm, but they were effective)

In its defence though, the Westinghouse does top up just before the end of the wash cycle on the quick programmes and has high level rinsing on quick cycles with intermittant spins (cotton)





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