Thread Number: 19665
Restoring the 1959 Lady Kenmore.......
[Down to Last]

automaticwasher.org's exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items --- [As an eBay Partner, eBay may compensate automaticwasher.org if you make a purchase using any link to eBay on this page]
Post# 315905   11/19/2008 at 07:47 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

I was thrilled when I found this set (posted in Thread #19602) for sale by a local dealer......who said it was in great condition (it was) and complete (it wasn't !). When we went to load it and upended it, the pump was missing.........taken off years ago (?). The dealer assured me he would get me a new pump (2 ports) and mail it out to me (he did). Here is the pump, actually a 3 port pump. Its the industry standard now that is used as a replacement for both Whirlpool and Kenmore, with either the recirculating filter or side mount self cleaning filter........




Post# 315907 , Reply# 1   11/19/2008 at 07:51 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

3 port replacement pump.......... Three ports are circled in red...........the small port with the plug at the end is capped when replacing a 2 port pump.........the 3rd and small port being connected when a waterfall flo filter is used (or MagicMix on Whirlpool)........

Post# 315908 , Reply# 2   11/19/2008 at 07:57 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Trying to keep the washer as vintage as possible I first opted not to use this new pump. I had a NOS (new old stock) 2 port metal Kenmore FSP pump so I tried using it. When I first hooked it up and water tested it, it leaked EVERYWHERE possible.......and even in some IMPOSSIBLE places too. So the first thing to do was replace those #$**^##@!! CORBIN CLAMPS........ Corbin Clamps are those springy type of clamps that are the meanest thing to work with sometimes.......I replaced most of them with stainless adjustable hose clamps.....that took care of SOME of the leaks......

Post# 315910 , Reply# 3   11/19/2008 at 08:00 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

The washer was "working" but NO water would pump thru the systems.......neither the drain, suds valve, waterfall recirculating filter........I could hear it trying......it turned out the system was totally plugged with "rusticles". Little bits of metal rust particles.... NOT a good sign.......

Post# 315911 , Reply# 4   11/19/2008 at 08:03 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

So the disassembly started: This is a VERY complicated washer with a complex system of hoses and Check Valves, along with a suds saver diverter valve..... The rust totally plugged up the NOS pump I had put on........

Post# 315913 , Reply# 5   11/19/2008 at 08:06 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

This is a view from underside of the washer....what looks like a "sump" from the bottom of the tub is actually one of the check valves. It has a rubber ball inside that "floats" up and down according to the flow of the water, either pumping in when the returning suds water, or "recirculating" and pumping out, during different modes of the cycle......The sump is circled in blue.....

Post# 315914 , Reply# 6   11/19/2008 at 08:09 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Flushing and draining the washer over and over didnt help as the rust was still present.......So there was no choice but to remove the inner tub and see what was going on.......

Post# 315915 , Reply# 7   11/19/2008 at 08:10 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Top removed........

Post# 315916 , Reply# 8   11/19/2008 at 08:11 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Removing the tub nut........

Post# 315918 , Reply# 9   11/19/2008 at 08:12 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Inner wash tub removed, it was not as bad as I thought but there were still little dams of rust in the tub.....all of which were blocking the system and the check valves when pumping out........

Post# 315919 , Reply# 10   11/19/2008 at 08:13 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

And the source of the rust? The dreaded spin shaft rust.......oh oh.......NOT a good sign........

Post# 315921 , Reply# 11   11/19/2008 at 08:16 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

The next step is to try and halt the rust from continuing.......I thought it best NOT to removed the outer tub at this point, but just to reseal the bottom donut seal with silicone and then to paint the spin shaft with POR-15

Post# 315922 , Reply# 12   11/19/2008 at 08:18 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

I also siliconed ALL the possible places in the outer tub where a leak could (and did) occur.....The four screws at the bottom of the tub were also loose and needed tightening.....this the water port for the pressure switch....

Post# 315923 , Reply# 13   11/19/2008 at 08:21 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Now for a nasty job.......trying to repair the "self-cleaning" filter..... This is the chamber for the filter.....

Post# 315924 , Reply# 14   11/19/2008 at 08:22 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Its made to be easily taken apart so I guess the original designers felt it could be serviced........

Post# 315925 , Reply# 15   11/19/2008 at 08:23 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

More of the filter.......

Post# 315926 , Reply# 16   11/19/2008 at 08:25 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Here is the filter "split" in half........ it was totally blocked with not only rusticles but also a big glob of lint.......

Post# 315927 , Reply# 17   11/19/2008 at 08:27 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Close up of the filter.........It consists of two rubber "bumpers" and is filled with glass balls. I felt bad taking this thing apart, it was the only thing on the washer that didnt leak! Its an amazing contraption.......makes me wonder who dreamed something like this up........???

Post# 315928 , Reply# 18   11/19/2008 at 08:28 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Inside of one half of the filter chamber.......

Post# 315930 , Reply# 19   11/19/2008 at 08:29 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Opposite side, with the glass balls removed for cleaning and the lint taken out........these are the two rubber bumpers.....

Post# 315931 , Reply# 20   11/19/2008 at 08:30 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Glass balls and Lint........

Post# 315932 , Reply# 21   11/19/2008 at 08:31 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

All cleaned out, and ready to reassemble.......

Post# 315933 , Reply# 22   11/19/2008 at 08:33 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

I was lucky to have the service manual for this washer. It describes the system for those of you who like me are facinated by its workings.......So here you go!

Post# 315934 , Reply# 23   11/19/2008 at 08:34 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

more.........

Post# 315935 , Reply# 24   11/19/2008 at 08:35 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

talk about complicated !

Post# 315936 , Reply# 25   11/19/2008 at 08:36 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

more........

Post# 315937 , Reply# 26   11/19/2008 at 08:37 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

and yet more......

Post# 315938 , Reply# 27   11/19/2008 at 08:39 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

for Suds Return.... Notice the Check Valves in the system. They are very important for proper operation.......and a real pain when they dont work properly.....

Post# 315940 , Reply# 28   11/19/2008 at 08:40 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Here is one of the check valves close up. This one worked fine, thank goodness. This is the lower check valve, used in place of the usual sump, on the underside of the washer...

Post# 315943 , Reply# 29   11/19/2008 at 08:43 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

It consists of a little rubber ball in a "sump". The ball floats up or down according to the flow of the water...

Post# 315946 , Reply# 30   11/19/2008 at 08:45 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

The problem with these valves is that the rubber deteriorates and becomes water logged and wont "float" up or down anymore.....also the inside of the chamber becomes rough and corroded and pourous and the "ball" wont seal around it anymore.......This is the valve cleaned out. Luckily this valve didnt give me any trouble.......and is working fine!

Post# 315948 , Reply# 31   11/19/2008 at 08:51 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

There is ANOTHER check valve, higher up on the side of the tub. This one was a big problem. Its the intake for the water during wash filter recirculation and when the flow of water reverses during pump out, this check valve is supposed to shut to keep the flow of water from re-entering the tub..... Luckily, just by chance Jim Frigiman and I FOUND a brand new one in out last parts hunt.......talk about perfect timing! Old valve on the left, new REdesigned valve on the right.......

Post# 315949 , Reply# 32   11/19/2008 at 08:52 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Better picture of the old valve vs. the new valve......

Post# 315950 , Reply# 33   11/19/2008 at 08:55 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

The old valve had the rubber ball float in it, and the chamber was completely corroded........ The new re-designed valve has a rubber flapper inside a plastic housing. FSP redesigned these valves in the mid-60's. When I worked for different repair services in the past I replaced many of these valves. I believe they are only used on washers with self-cleaning filters......

Post# 315951 , Reply# 34   11/19/2008 at 08:56 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

New check valve installed

Post# 315952 , Reply# 35   11/19/2008 at 09:00 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Everything installed it should have worked! It DIDNT! I still could not get water to pump thru the filter... Earlier I had given up on using my NOS pump. Even tho it had never been used, it too leaked when I installed it. I tried to seal it to no avail, so I "modernized" and installed the new pump that the seller sent me.......

Post# 315953 , Reply# 36   11/19/2008 at 09:05 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

And here was another learning experience. THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE...... A three port pump WILL NOT PUMP thru the recirculation system that has a self-cleaning filter. It should, but it doesn't !!
I had another pump, also NOS, 2 Port, of the older style. I installed it and FINALLY, the system worked as it should. It seems the inner chamber on the two pumps is different even tho FSP catalogs this as a replacement, it is not correct. Since there is no way the 3rd port could have been used on my machine, it would have NEVER worked properly using that pump...... The pump on the right DID work and correctly....


Post# 315954 , Reply# 37   11/19/2008 at 09:07 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

A final water test before reassembly. All systems worked, no leaks, it filters and drains......

The washer as shown in the previous link is all back together and works (so far) beautifully. Man, what a complicated washer, but I love it.


Post# 315966 , Reply# 38   11/19/2008 at 10:45 (5,608 days old) by tuthill ()        
Nothing short of fascinating

Thank you for posting this! Certainly the best of 1959. How much of that extra stuff was dreamed up by Kenmore? Could you get all of those features on a TOL Whirlpool?

Post# 315970 , Reply# 39   11/19/2008 at 10:56 (5,608 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
Jimmy -

Its a shame that you had all that trouble with the pumps. The 3-port pump is useful only in machines made from 1976 forward, which have either a waterfall manual filter or a non-recirculating filter under the basket (late production models after 1982 or so).

The three port with the boxy chamber as shown on the left in your picture is not capable of recirculating water directionally through the pump as the old 2-port is. Water flows through the inlet in only one direction and the recirculation is accomblished from the tiny third port, whereas in the two port water flow reverses direction based on the position of the shift lever and is always flowing in one side and out the other. All the shift lever does in the three port is open or close the back port for draining.

The three port you show pumps massive amounts of water per time as compared to the older pumps. Whoever advised you to use it on your beautiful machine was mistaken - that pump design wasn't "born" until your machine was 17 years old.

If in the future you have any issues with NOS pumps leaking, I have had some success with putting hot water through them - a load or two to make the parts warm up and expand has usually made a new pump seal itself again.

What fantastic shape the outer tub is in. That is GREAT. I think your decision not to pull it was smart - those rusty centerposts can often cause the tub lip to crack when pulling the tub, then it is much harder to seal.

I hope you enjoy the machine for many years. Great job!

Gordon


Post# 315973 , Reply# 40   11/19/2008 at 11:17 (5,608 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
Another interesting tidbit about those pumps....

The majority of Whirlpool/Kenmore belt drive machines in the 80s were made to use the three port pump (WP's part number was 285317) though a few models used the old two and four port pumps.

One would expect that of the belt drive parts still supported by WP, it would be those still in most demand. Logic would then have it that whatever was used last and in most volume would be most in demand today.

Well, the three port 285317 is not available now from Whirlpool, yet the older two and four port pumps are (350365 and 350367). They are made in Brazil for/by Brastemp and exported to the U.S. Apparently Brastemp never used the "new" three port design. The cool part is they're made of bright blue plastic and more closely resemble the original appearance of the plastic pumps from the late 60s.

The three port is offered by Supco now (taken over from Gemline) and is even offered by Sears when a 285317 is needed. I have not had much experience with their pumps - has anyone else?


Post# 315974 , Reply# 41   11/19/2008 at 11:38 (5,608 days old) by autowasherfreak ()        
WOW!

That was very fascinating! I can't wait to get started on my Lady Kenmore!

James


Post# 315975 , Reply# 42   11/19/2008 at 11:39 (5,608 days old) by filterflo (Chicago Area)        

Thanks for the info on the pumps. Its a case unless you work on these a lot and have first hand knowledge of their application (which the dealer apparently did not) when it seems like you are using the right part and it still wont work then often these things are considered "unfixable" and get relegated to the junk heap. For the sake of simplicity, I left out a lot of information dealing with the NOS pump I tried to use. It leaked from the upper pulley shaft. Upon disassembly and inspection the rubber shaft seal had completely compressed and cracked from age, even tho it had never been used. I tried another impeller/shaft/seal with no luck and gave up on it after several tries. The pump I finally used worked and worked very well......There seemed little logic to using an old pump when I had (more than one) new one in my parts inventory.....
Sounds like you have had a lot of experience on Kenmores.....Im sure you will agree they were a great design...Restoring this one got me back in the loop from the hundreds I had done in the past.

Thanks again for the info on the pump.....PS. I made sure I didnt tighten the 95405 belt too much to ruin the pump bearing!


Post# 316044 , Reply# 43   11/19/2008 at 16:58 (5,607 days old) by fridgiman ()        

Jimmy,
Thanks for posting the pics of the restoration.
I now have a visual to go with all the explaining that you have been telling me about the restoration.
Now all you have to do is kneel and pray to the God of Washer Leaks to keep that baby running trouble free for another 50 years.

Jim


Post# 316050 , Reply# 44   11/19/2008 at 17:51 (5,607 days old) by mihi ()        
whow man.....

this is one awesome report. and the photo's are great. Good job on this washer!

Post# 316052 , Reply# 45   11/19/2008 at 17:54 (5,607 days old) by volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)        
A job and a half!

volvoguy87's profile picture
Thank you for saving this beauty. Your photos are wonderful and your final results are supurb.

Beautiful,
Dave


Post# 316074 , Reply# 46   11/19/2008 at 20:13 (5,607 days old) by northwesty (Renton, WA)        

Though you had problems with it looking at the pictures, I though most of the parts, like the "self-cleaning" filter, etc., looked to be pretty well preserved. Congrats on sticking with it and restoring such an interesting machine. Thanks for all the pictures it sure is a help in the future when another one pops up.

Post# 316080 , Reply# 47   11/19/2008 at 21:07 (5,607 days old) by danelto (State College, PA)        
Final Grade

A+++ You did an excellent job on this project. Thanks for educating all of us!

Post# 316179 , Reply# 48   11/20/2008 at 14:43 (5,606 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
Thanks for showing us the inside of the filter - another magical mystery of washday solved!

Very interesting info on the pumps too, I'll bet that was a frustrating afternoon spent trying to get to work - patience prevails again. Congrats again!



Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      



Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.



                     


automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy