Question for Aussies on this board re: washer preferences down under


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Question for Aussies on this board re: washer preferences down under

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Post# 323596 1/11/2009 at 11:45 (5,577 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)
Checkrate/Likes G'day, I've been reading AW.org for several years and have noticed Australian readers mention both TL and FL machines. FYI, FLs were made in the USA from shortly before WW2 until I believe the late 1970s. Westinghouse probably made the lion's share of them, but Bendix, GE, and others also made them. The early FLs couldn't match top loaders for speed or capacity and, prior to the development of high final spin speeds, they had little edge in water extraction. Until 1997, when Maytag introduced its Neptune FL, one could find imported Miele or other European brands in high end, specialty appliance stores, but not in mainstream appliance stores (e.g. Sears). So it's only been in the past ten years that US consumers have had a choice between TL and reasonably priced (in some cases), mass-marketed FL machines. ff(i.e. I'd define a Whirlpool for $800-900 as "reasonably priced", whereas a $1600 Miele may be worth the money, but it's not "mass market priced" because the average American cannot afford $1600 for a washer alone. A $650 Frigidaire can do an adequate job, even if it's inferior to a Miele at more than twice the price). My understanding is that FL sales now exceed TL sales in the USA, though whether either design can compete with a vintage TL is another matter. If one goes house to house for a survey, most likely TL machines still outnumber FL machines, but as those machines age and break, I believe eventually FL machines will outnumber TL machines. On my last trip to Australia, I was in a number of private homes (since I was visiting friends as well as playing tourist) and I noticed a mix of FL and TL machines in the homes I visited. So here are my questions: 1. What % of new washers being sold in Australia are TL vs FL? 2. What % of existing machines in Australian homes are TL vs FL? 3. Has the market share of each type been steady, or is there a trend toward FLs? 4. Was there a time when FLs were not mass marketed in Australia? (there was a roughly twenty year period in USA when this happened). 5. Over the past 10 years, Australia has experienced some pretty severe drought conditions. Has water scarcity prompted a move away from TL to FL machines? Are there financial incentives or rebates to encourage FL use? (in Southern California, there is a $125 rebate from the metropolitan water district for the purchase of a FL; a few FLs do not qualify based on "water factor use" but most FL machines sold do qualify for the rebate. There is also a $30 rebate from Southern California Gas Co.). I would imagine TLs are plentiful in NZ due to the presence of Fisher and Paykal, but obviously NZ does not face the same water scarcity issues that Australia has. PS: to give you an idea of the scarcity of FL machines in the US at one time: my home was built in 1988, with laundry area in the garage. There are several reasons why homes in Southern California have their laundry area in the garage: 1. The pipes don't freeze here. 2. House stays cooler with dryer out in the garage, particularly in areas (like mine) with mild summers where air conditioning is not needed. 3. The garage slab is typically 15 cm (6 inches) below the house floor, so if there is a water leak, it flows out the garage door but does not cause water damage inside the house. The garage slab actually has a slight slant downward toward the door (maybe one inch over 20 feet) and any water spilled on the slab inevitably heads toward the street and not the house. Building regulation in my county requires a bollard (concrete filled steel pipe) to be embedded in the garage slab and it's about 75 cm (30 inches) high, to protect the appliances from a runaway car (don't want to sever gas lines and blow up the neighborhood, now do we?). Because virtually no FLs were sold in USA in 1988 (except for high end appliance stores selling a few Miele or Bosch machines), the bollard was placed directly in front of the washer space, effectively blocking the door of any future FL machine. But they weren't thinking along those lines because all mass market choices were TL in those days. I circumvented the problem by buying a washer and dryer that could be stacked using a bracket from the manufacturer, and located them in the dryer space, which is not impeded by the bollard. Even with a pedestal, a washer door would still be blocked (not to mention the inability of opening the pedestal storage drawer....).

Post# 323612 , Reply# 1 1/11/2009 at 13:27 (5,577 days old) by dadoes (TX,�U.S. of A.)
Checkrate/Likes Seems to me that some brand or other (Westy and WCI/Frigidaire, for example) has had a frontloader or two on the U.S. market pretty much continuously. They didn't completely disappear between the 1970s (1974 was the last Kenmore combo) and the 1997 introduction of the Neptune. The Neppy just brought them to attention again.

Post# 323619 , Reply# 2 1/11/2009 at 14:14 (5,577 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)
Checkrate/Likes Hi Jim, I cant answer 1 or 2 definitively, but I can have a go at the rest. 3) Market share would now appear to be trending towards FL machines, there have been a large number of rebates and incentives to switch, due to the water shortages in AU. This has been hurting all local manufacturers as they had to play catch up to have a water efficient TL machine. The F&P's are now made in asia as are most of the domestic Electrolux offerings. No FL machines are made in AU. 4) FL machines have always been available here, but until the late 90's were never really affordable except for the Hoover Zodiac and its descendants. Most of the TL machines in 76 (Acording to Choice) were around the $450 mark. The Westinghouse FL machine started at $650 and the Miele was $975. Since the late 90's we've been able to get the european machines quite cheaply and that has helped their penetration. 5) The drought has played a big part in the change here, Governments have pushed hard to get people to switch, in my state they offered a rebate (Up until dec 31) of $200 for any 4 star rated machine. To get the four stars a machine roughly has to use less than 10L of water per 1kg of clothes. This has seen a big push to upsize the load rating of the machines as they can then use more water for the same cycle. The water crisis has eased slightly in my city, we can now hose outside for 30 minutes per week as long as we keep our consumption under 170L per person per day (Previously 140L per person per day and no outside use except buckets). The fear mongering conservatives have forgetten what it was like when we were running out of water (9months ago) and populist opinion means that the govt will no longer we adding recycled water to our dams until we drop back below 40% capacity. I'm unsure whether they've done the same thing to the desalination plants, all of the alternate sources have now come online and are only providing a fraction of their capacity to our power stations because of the stupidy of most people. With the availability of Asian TL machines here, they retail from around $350 at the low end of the scale up to around $1200. The Australian/Asian TL stuff is around $600-$1200. American TL machines are $700-$1400 (Maytag). The FL start at around $400 - $2000 (Big LG) for a cheapy from Asia, the Euro stuff is around $600 to $3600 (Electrolux, to AEG and Miele). The US front loaders were never very popular here, the Maytag was around $2500AUD and at the time with the suspicion around FL machines they never really took off. Most (Not all before I get flamed) Australian houses now have a washer alcove of 65cm wide. This means that most large capacity US machines wont fit unless you have a very spacious laundry. I grew up in a family of Whirlpool BD Toploaders, I can count 6 or 7 within my family and there was always a fear that FL took to long, didnt wash and for ages needed more expensive powder. These days you can do a cycle in about an hour (Low Hot water pressure here means hot fills can take forever) the cleaning is comporable and every standard version of detergent costs the same as the FL versions. My whole family now has FL machines, some Electrolux, LG, Miele and all of them are happy with how they perform. Mum changed from TL to FL because the machine was eating up to much of her water allocation and she had to bucket all of the greywater onto the garden to keep it alive. With the FL machine, she can spend another 8-10 minutes watering with the hose before she's used as much as the TL machine did.

Post# 323660 , Reply# 3 1/11/2009 at 18:32 (5,577 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Hello Jim....* I concur with brisnat on this... ...though can add a little more detail on a couple of questions. 1. I have been told on numerous occassions by sales people in major shops such as Harvey Norman, Good Guys and David Jones that the percentage of FL to TL has increased significantly over the past few years. It has been growing steadily for about 10years now. In 1989 when the ASEA came to live with us, sales were about 10%. This was also the case when I bought my Hoover Electra in 1994. Since then I have been told that sales have been as high as 50% of new machines sold though I can't find statistics to prove this, amongst my friends and family FL use is higher than TL use yet we have no rebate in Canberra (!) 2. According the the Australian Bureau of Statistics (abs.gov.au), a survey done in October 2006 states that '14% of NSW homes have FL machines'. I can't argue with that, but can't help but feel that the figure is a little low. 3. There appears to be a trend to FL. How long this will last does depend on a number of factors such as drought conditions, incentives to switch (and how they work). At the moment, Electrolux and F&P water efficient top load machines do not generally qualify for rebates because you can also use them as a 'normal' water hungry TL if you wish. 4. Our Hoover FL machines were Australian made from the late 1970's and are, to the best of my knowledge, the only front load machines that were made here. We have always had access to front load from the Keymatic onwards, though some earlier European Bendix machines were sold here in the late 1940's. Brands such as Philips, Hoover, Bendix, Gorenje catered to the 'lower' (but still dearer than most TL) end of the market from about 1972 until, as Nathan said, the mid-late 1990's. 5. In a word, yes. Many councils offer incentives to switch. These are around $150-200. I had a rebate for our (now rental) property in NSW that was $200.00. Council had to sight the receipt stating the delivery address AND see the machine plumbed in at that address. I am not sure of FL use in NZ, but I do know that F&P did have a strangle hold on the electicals market in NZ for some time. Like Nathan, I grew up in a TL house (Simpson Fluid Drives here) but in its' defence, it used 26gallons (120lt) per cycle and mum used to reuse the wash water once so it wasn't too bad. However, one aunt had a keymatic until 1986ish and then a Zodiac which is what started me on the FL bent. Since then my mother (1989) and aunt (1995), friends etc have switched...so we are about 60% FL. I have not had a negative comment from anyone that owns one here (oops, one....he HATES his ASKO yet commends its wash but by his own admission, he is an habitual 'adder'). Two very close friends one with an Electrolux (Zanussi jetsystem) and the other with an LG steam machine have both commented on the vast difference in wash quality compared to their previous Simpson and Hoover TL... Given the availability now of a huge range of FL machines with capacities from 6.5kg to 10kg (there is one 5kg machine) and that they now out number TL machines in most shops, there may be an even bigger swing in years to come....

Post# 323697 , Reply# 4 1/11/2009 at 21:11 (5,577 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)
Checkrate/Likes Hi brisnat and ronhic, I was in error, actually the rebate is currently $135 and is offered by the government water agency that distributes water to most of Southern Calfornia from our mountains in the north. Check out the link below, on the right side of a page is a list of qualifying models. Our water situation is not as dire as in AUS, thanks to the Sierra Nevada, but we are in the middle of a several year drought as well. What determines our supply is not so much local precipitation (with exceptions) but rather how much snow falls in Northern California's mountains. There are some exceptions. The Southern California mountains (10,000 feet high) drain to the ocean by the Santa Ana River. The river bed is lined with concrete channel walls (to prevent disastrous floods that occurred in the 1930s) and has earthen berms in the channel to slow down the water and to promote it seeping into the ground. In other words, the goal is to conserve the water and have it soak into the ground and NOT reach the ocean. The water is then pumped out by wells and supplies 25% of the water for Orange County (population close to 3,000,000). This system works in the northern half of the county where the soil is sandy, but would not work in the southern regions of the county where the soil (using the term loosely) is clay. As a child growing up in the 1960s, I remember seeing a few front loaders in people's homes, but they were the exception. Most were Westinghouse slant fronts. People did not like their lower capacities or longer wash times. No one paid attention to the fact that they conserved water and energy (by conserving hot water). Spin speeds then were not so high that FLs had an obvious advantage in lower drying times over TLs. Bendix had produced FLs shortly before WW2, but very soon after the war, American companies began to make automatic TLs with larger capacities and shorter wash times. Consumers were already used to wringer washers with an electric agitator, and a fully automatic machine took familiar technology one step further by filling/draining automatically and incorporating a spin cycle. There were twin tub machines pre-war that had a large wash chamber with agitator and a smaller spin tub, and they were acknowledged as superior to wringer machines, but they were quickly overtaken by automatic FLs after the war. So in the 1950s and early 1960s, by which time just about all but poor people in the USA had automatic washers (by that I mean the middle class could afford automatics by the mid 1950s), FLs were not overwhelmingly superior to TLs, and TLs offered a lot of convenience. Energy and water were thought to be cheap and limitless, so the advantages a FL brought to the table seemed inconsequential. Just as in our low TV resolution, Americans paid the price for being first with technology. (our tv's NTSC standard remained the same from the late 1940s until this year, when over the air broadcasting switches over to HDTV only in Feb 2009: 525 lines. The reason we stayed with lower resolution than the rest of the world was to prevent obsolescence of B&W tv's bought in the early 1950s. Color tv in the USA was rolled out in 1954, and the government chose to go stay with 525 line resolution for color so that the signals could also be received by earlier B&W tv's). I don't have any stats nationwide for FL vs TL marketshare, but I know the owner of our local appliance store and he says he sells more FLs than TLs. Mieles are expensive here, Bosch less so, Whirlpool/Maytag about the same, and the only really moderately priced machines are Frigidaire (Electrolux), $500-800, the lower price being for heaterless models. LG are expensive and people usually stay away from really low end Asian brands like Haier. WalMart sells them and they don't last very long. Actually, if one figures $135 water rebate and $30 gas rebate, then a Frigidaire 2140 selling for $560 is really $495 before tax and delivery. The rule here is that sales tax is computed on the pre-rebate price. In general, one completes the rebate form and mails it with proof of purchase to the agency, and the rebate check arrives later in the mail. Since the rebate is offered by a governmental water agency and not the municipality, they don't really bother to verify whether it's installed and running in such-and-such municipality. They must have some safeguard in place (like one per household per year or something) to cover for people who return a washer (within the period when you can return it to the store) and select a different model and who try to claim rebates on both machines. It wouldn't be worth the bother to me, but I am certain some people have tried it. CLICK HERE TO GO TO passatdoc's LINK

Post# 323702 , Reply# 5 1/11/2009 at 21:46 (5,577 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Inexpensive....* There is really only one reason why Bosch and Electrolux are able to offer Fl machines here as cheaply as they do. I have asted a link to one of the cheaper shops. Keep in mind that our dollar is only worth about 70c US at the moment. So the Bosch machine for AUD$839 is actually about USD$588 and that INCLUDES the 10% GST of USD$53.50... The 7kg Electrolux at AUD$679.00 is about USD$475.00 and again, that includes the 10% GST of USD$43.20. USD$432.00 (plus tax...lol) for what we consider a basic, but solid performer is pretty good....and it has a heater too.... The tax in Oz (GST- Goods and Sales Tax) is included in every items price. It is actually against the Trade Practices Act to show good $xx.00 + GST..... CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK

Post# 323703 , Reply# 6 1/11/2009 at 21:47 (5,577 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *....and here is the Government leaflet for consumers* attached CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK

Post# 323705 , Reply# 7 1/11/2009 at 22:47 (5,577 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)
Checkrate/Likes Sales tax in USA can vary by state. The funds collected go to the state and municipal governments, but not to the federal government. Within a state, the tax can vary by county or municipality, if the local government wishes to impose an additional tax. For example, in Orange County CA we pay an additional 0.5% to support transportation improvements (road, bus, and train projects) and this has been approved by the voters twice, once initially and then an extension was approved by voters. By tradition, the sales tax is NOT included with the posted price. Sales tax where I live is 7.75%, and as high as 8% in Los Angeles and San Francisco. You just learn to compute the tax in your head. When "instant rebates" (granted at the cashier's) apply, tax must be paid based on the pre-rebate price. I prefer the way it's done in Europe or Australia, where the price you see is the price you pay, but no one here would ever be fooled by an advertised price, we know to factor in an extra 7 or 8% to arrive at the true cost. Same with buying a car. As far as I know, Mieles are still made in Germany, though now they make them to US specs, with hot and cold water fill and 120V operation. THey also make a larger size (model 4800 or whatever) than they sell in Europe, and I've read here that those models are made in USA. Haven't seen one with my own eyes so can't swear by that fact. "Standard" washer width here has been 27 inches or 70 cm for years. Many TLs were built on a 27 x 27 footprint. My Frigidaire is 27 wide x 27 deep x 36 high. Too tall to place under a kitchen counter, and too wide for Australian or European standard spaces, but American homes are built on the 70 cm standard. It's rare to see a washing machine under a kitchen cabinet, and when one does see it, it's often a European-sized machine 60 cm wide (Miele, etc...Bosch and Miele sell both Euro and US size machines here now). Since I had to stack both my machines in the dryer space, to avoid the bollard pipe (discussed earlier), the Frigidaires were perfect at 36 inches tall. The stack reaches to six feet high, or 72 inches or 1.82 meters. Larger machines such as Whirlpool Duets can be stacked, but the machines are 40 inches tall, thus a stack will be 6 feet 8 inches or about 2.05 meters tall at the top, where the dryer controls are located. I could reach controls that high but it would not be comfortable or convenient as I am 1.80 meters tall. A shorter person might complain about the height of my Frigidaire stack, but for me it's just the right size. The US-sized Bosch machines here have controls on the top surface of the machine near the door, rather than on the front surface, so they cannot be stacked. The controls would not be accessible. Weird design, though the machines seem to perform well. The Euro size Bosch machines can be stacked, as they have standard controls on the top front of the machine. The larger capacity machines here, such as Whirlpool Duet, Miele 4800, and now Electrolux (largest of all home machines sold here, I believe) retain the 27 inch width, but are deeper and taller in order to increase capacity. People with tight clearances (built-in installation in a closet, or a laundry room with a door that swings close to the machines) cannot always accomodate these larger machines, even though they can handle the 27 inch width, because the depth is too great.

Post# 323712 , Reply# 8 1/12/2009 at 00:42 (5,577 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Standards....* Most modern laundrys here are, as Nathan said, built with a smaller space than they used to be. However, that tends to be in new builds and renovations. My mothers laundry is about 9' long by 6' wide...so she can fit whatever she likes in there. It is not normal here to have a dryer the same size as a washer unless it is a 'European' sized washing machine. We can only get a couple of Amercian sized dryers. Fisher and Paykel made one, but I don't think they import it anymore (and it needed special wiring). Kleenmaid used to bring in a speed queen dryer, but again, electric. The vast majority of everything else is 59.5cm wide (23.5") or the European norm. Haier is the exception. They (I believe) bought the old Hoover Apollo tooling as the dryer they bring into Oz is an exact copy...right down to the door vent, airing frame and air intake cover....and is a tad narrower All Australian made dryers can also be wall mounted upside down too....they come with a kit and a new label to go over the controls. As many people build their front load machines under the bench, wall mounting the dryer makes sense as you don't lose the bench. That, and our dryers are not as industrial sized as American models or as heavy as many of the European ones....and we don't have Australian made condenser dryers - yet The other thing that many Australians are finally coming to grips with is that 'bigger isn't always better'. The average load of washing is about 4.5kg...or 2/3 the capacity of a new 'normal' sized Miele. That is about a 'rounded' rather than heaped washing basket full yet there is still an ability to wash a large 210cm x 210cm (86"x86") light weight quilt... Still, we shall see over the next 10 years what happens...

Post# 323717 , Reply# 9 1/12/2009 at 01:55 (5,577 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)
Checkrate/Likes I have a "laundry center" on the wall next to the machines. It features a storage shelf on top, a meter-long rail to hang clothes from the dryer (or iron) on hangers, and three tall hanging bags with square ends and sides for sorting laundry. I tend to sort by drying requirements, since I wash just about everything on Warm setting, except towels on Hot. Towels, sturdy cottons, and perm press are each dried separately. What I like about the sorting bags is that when one is filled to the top, the load will fill the tub completely, so I know I am doing a full load. A large load might use a bit more water, because I've seen the machine spin slowly a few times and then pause to add more water once or twice more, but the electricity used to operate the machine is the same whether a full load or less than full load, and the same would apply to the electricity used to spin the dryer drum (I would assume a larger load requires more heat energy from gas or electricity than a small load). My Frigidaire has a 3.5 cu ft capacity which I think works out to about 9 kg and I rarely wash less than a full load unless it's an emergency and I need a particular item washed now.

Post# 323729 , Reply# 10 1/12/2009 at 04:26 (5,577 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *My contribution* Hello Jim, Both Nathan and Chris have spelt out the Australian washing machine situation extremely well,all I can really add is that back when I used to be young(i'm 44 now) front loaders were considered to be either a luxury item or something you bought just to be different. The very first front loader I ever heard of was called the Hoover little big wash(from back in the very early 1970's),however it was a little machine probably about 4-4.5kg capacity, whereas most top loaders then were big monsters which took most loads in 1 or 2 washes. Also back then Omomatic was the only choice in front loading detergents and was quite expensive to buy. Australians were quite conservative in their choices then and top loaders were just the normal choice for the vast majority of people and you actually got some great machines and competition in the market was quite fierce with Simpson, Hoover, Malleys Whirlpool and Westinghouse battling for the consumer dollar. I persoanlly believe that Simpson was the market leader(no stats just a gut feeling)followed by Hoover,Malleys Whirlpool and then Westinghouse. The manufacturers did also cater for singles and smaller families with smaller and mid-size families. Simpson had the Minimatic and the Delta 10,Malleys Whirlpool also had a midsize machine with no special name however I do not think Hoover back then had a smaller size automatic top loader because their smaller machines were the front loaders i.e. the little big wash and then the Zodiac range also Hoover had the incredibly popular Hoovermatic Twintub which sold over a million units here in Australia. Back then I believe housewives were very loyal to their particualr machine and brand, for example my mother was very fiercely Simpson(in particular to her semi auto which she adored) the lady next door was Hoover,Hoover and nothing but Hoover and Mum's best friend at her work was Whirlpool all the way and my Aunt Phyllis was a Hoovermatic tragic as she lived in a smaller country town which had water problems even back then and the T.T. was a good way to wash and be able to reuse water. These days I guess the T.L.'s still have the lion's share of the market however F.L.'s are growing in popularity as both Nathan and Chris mentioned due to drought, government cash back schemes and also due to what I believe was a campaign by front loader manufacturers and some retailers (please dont burn me in flames F.L.lovers this is just my view.) basically demonising the old agitator top loader as a clothes shredding, fabric destroying beast. It will be interesting to watch what happens in the next 5 or so years I personally believe the traditonal top loader will disappear and we will be left with a large range of front loaders a few Asian style top loaders and maybe 1-2 twintubs. Sorry about the length of the post. Cheers guys. Steve.

Post# 323752 , Reply# 11 1/12/2009 at 08:49 (5,576 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes Back into ancient times there were other FL Aussie machines - Bendix were made here by James Kirby Co in the 50s and 60s. Naco also made manually operated (not automatic) front loaders. The Lightburn jumbo twin was a front loader of sorts, with its separate vertical spinner. The Westinghouse front loaders from USA were assembled under license here too. The Hoover advertised as the "little big wash" was the Hoover 455, it was actually fully imported from Wales, but I believe the 455 model designation was unique to AU. It also had its UK model number on the side ID sticker, though I can't remember what it was. It was a square door classic UK hoover FL, I think 800 rpm spin (the 1100spin variants were never sold here), black control panel with smoky grey ring around timer dial and orange switch for A/B programs (spin/no spin). The UK-made 455 was simplified for the Australian made versions which were named Zodiac. The Zodiacs: 460 - first Australian model. Plastic fascia of 455 replaced with a simple sticker on the front. No dispenser drawer. Door release is moved from the casing to the door frame. Timer is imported Crouzet brand, bulkier but reliable barrel cam design. Motor and electronics are same as 455, imported from UK. Inner and outer drums enamel(?) Uses combined hot/cold fill valve. Fill temp selection (hot/warm/cold) is on the main timer knob. 465 is 460 with heater. 470 - Plastic fascia returns, still no dispenser drawer. Timer is Australian made, Eaton brand(?) flat, face-plate cam design. (Timer is cheaper but less reliable. This timer design remains for all subsequent models.) Shorter cycle times - about 40 to 45 min total for wash, 5 rinses and 2 spins. Stainless steel inner drum, enamel outer drum. Also the outer drum changes to stainless steel towards the end of the 470 model run. 475 is 470 with heater. 480 - motor changes to Italian induction motor with no electronics. (Nuova Ibmei brand, 2-pole/16 pole, gives about 400 rpm spin, much slower than previous 800 rpm models, and much more prone to jumping around on spin.) Motor is quieter though. All 480s have stainless steel inner and outer drums. (In my opinion, the best use of a 480 is to donate its stainless steel drum to a 470.) The motor mounts on the drum remain set for the UK Hoover brush motor, the induction motor is fitted with a spacer and adapter bracket to suit. 485 has a heater. 490 - Fascia changes from beige to grey. Drive belt changes from flat poly-Vee belt to a simple v-belt. 510 - not sure of any changes of significance. 540 - model is re-designed and re-named. First version is called "Electra-Economiser". Inlet valves are separate hot & cold valves, instead of a single block dual valve. Detergent dispenser returns. Nuova Ibmei induction motor remains the same, but bigger pulley is fitted to give 800 rpm spin. Electronics now fitted to allow a slower spin of 500 rpm in delicate cycle, plus 50rpm tumble speed, distribute speed of 80 rpm, slightly stepped wind up to spin speed. Controls re-vamped to have a row of push-buttons for on/off, spin/hold, and hot/warm/cold fill. (plus heater on/off for models ending in 5.) The changes make it a very good model.(IMHO) 550 - name is simplified to Hoover Electra. Not sure of any changes. There may haved been a 560 version too, I'm not sure. The last Australian-made front Loader was the same machine, now with white fascia, called "Hoover 1100F dual spin". The Electra name dropped, the dual spin refers to its 800 rpm spin on normal and 500 rpm spin on delicate. Despite the 1100 name, it spins at 800 rpm. Replaced by a Beko wearing Hoover badges. Chris.

Post# 323801 , Reply# 12 1/12/2009 at 14:38 (5,576 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Fantastic details...* A very close friend had a 455. Was a great machine until the timer finally gave out. - there was a 520 and 525 which was the last of the Zodiacs - the model redesign was with the 530/535 - the 550/555 has longer wash components (21min from 17min on the 540/545) but has only 3 rinses each with intermittant spin and a DC motor (I think) as the ramp up to spin is quite gradual and there is rarely an out of balance situation - there was no 560/565....the last model was the 1100F - definately replaced with a Beko but they also introduced a British built machine with a 1200spin at the same time to compete with the higher end of the market CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK on eBay

Post# 323812 , Reply# 13 1/12/2009 at 15:33 (5,576 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Me again* Good morning guys, Yes this is fantastic information especially in regards to the Hoover Zodiac range I should have also included in my last post that there were indeed other brands to select from not just the main ones I indicated earlier I do recall in the mid 1980's I think it was, Philips had a range of washers here as well, they called them their "Gentle Care" range which included 2 large capacity automatic top loaders a front loader and a twintub they advertised these as being so gentle you could wash a paper tissue in any of them and it would not tear. I am pretty sure the top loaders were rebadged Hoovers most likely a 720 and 735 I am not sure about the front loader but I am guessing it was European made and the twintub was probably a Hitachi made model. Speaking of Hitachi they were in there as well with 2 twin tubs one large capacity one smaller and a couple of top loaders I dont believe in those days they had a front loader,could be wrong though, I also recall that Toshiba had a small top loader as well and also National Panasonic had 1-2 top loaders. When Mum's Westinghouse Laundromat finally died after about 15 years I treid to talk to her about buyinjg a Hoover Zodiac if for no other reason than to try something different for a change(the real reason was of course I really wanted to see how a front loader worked as I never knew anyone who owned one and we nnever had one either.),but she would not have a bar of it, in her view front loaders just would not work as well a top loader and also she did not want to use Omomatic, she was a deadset Rinso tragic it was Rinso,Rinso and nothing but Rinso,(she would be horrified to see how I have become a real tart when it comes to detergents.) Tell me guys do you think we will ever have whitegoods mass produced here again, even if it was a new manufacturer? I persoanlly dont think so but I could be wrong.

Post# 323822 , Reply# 14 1/12/2009 at 16:04 (5,576 days old) by mayfan69 (Brisbane Queensland Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Whitegoods in Australia* Hello, Personally, i don't think Australia will ever mass produce whitegoods again. We just cannot compete against the cheaper asian imports and the cost of labour is prohibitive. Factor that all into the price at the retail level and you would have to charge a premium over the imports which would seriously impact on sales and profit margins. That is why we no longer have a clothing industry anymore and i know. In a previous life, i was a Designer / Patternmaker for two large clothing brands: Stubbies and Triumph and both of those companies ceased local production because they could not compete against the cheaper asian imports. It's sad to think what has happened to our whitegoods industry. Cheers Leon

Post# 323851 , Reply# 15 1/12/2009 at 19:06 (5,576 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)
Checkrate/Likes Front loaders in the United States were not available from 1993 to 1995 except for ones that were already in warehouses waiting to be sold.We at Incredible Universe ran out of gas dryers first then washing machines. None were being manufactured due to the closing of the old WESTINGHOUSE factory in Mansfield, Ohio and the need to manufacture the newly designed renamed Frigidaire front loading,stack able washers and dryers.We didn't receive our first shipment until February of 1996 and the first 120 of them were already sold!The Neptunes though were a huge horror story.I thank the engineer who designed them for eliminating the window.that way,I could identify them and avoid selling them.Most customers I helped who were interested in them,I shied away showing them a few of the visible defects they had.

Post# 323859 , Reply# 16 1/12/2009 at 20:38 (5,576 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Manufacture* .... I have to agree with Leon. Australia will never again be in a position to manufacture whitegoods (or browngoods) like we used to. We simply to do not have the population base to justify it and maintain the sales that a manufacturer needs without charging a higher than average price for them. In 1994 my Hoover Electra cost about $875.00 According to the RBA, that is worth $1240.00 today - Given that Miele's W1611 is $1599.00 but currently has a $200.00 discount available meaning $1399.00....I would have stretched years ago if that was the price difference, but miele prices were about 60% higher at the time. I would stretch today. It is interesting that Electrolux closed the Dishwasher plant in Adelaide even though I believe it was profitable. As for anything branded as 'Hoover', that was never going to be a good mix with Electrolux anyway which is why they closed so quickly. Such a shame, there was life in the Electra yet. Higher spin anyone?

Post# 323861 , Reply# 17 1/12/2009 at 20:42 (5,576 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Philips FLs in AU* Philips had two FLs. There was an Italian made AWB904, it was a very basic induction motor machine, about 400 rpm spin. I have one in the shed, repaired (new drum and bearings) but broken plastic on the control panel. Nice quiet reliable machine, has long wash followed by 3 rinses, each with a spin. (so rinses better than the Hoovers with 5 rinses but only 2 spins.) There was also a Hoover Zodiac rebadged as a Philips - not sure if it was based on a 470 or a 480. Philips AU and Hoover AU were going to merge but were blocked by the ACCC.(my vague recollection.) They shared some models for a while, then Philips closed down its factory at Clayton and Hoover bought it! I got Hoover spare parts there for years. Now it is a used car yard. Chris.

Post# 323866 , Reply# 18 1/12/2009 at 20:53 (5,576 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *The ACCC* Thanks for the info and opinion guys, Chris as far as I am concerned the ACCC is as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike one only has to see how they allow all the banks building societies etc to merge and then be taken over in turn by larger banks and they do absolutely nothing about the power taht Woolies and Coles have in realtion to the grocery industry and they allowed Woolies to take over the old Safeway chain, that should not have been allowed in my view ,sorry getting off topic now. Cheers guys Steve.

Post# 323869 , Reply# 19 1/12/2009 at 21:10 (5,576 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes In the seventies and 80's Hoover was by far and away the biggest seller of washing machines, with Simpson trailing in second. These two brands had well over half the market to themselves. In the mid late 80's Fisher and Paykel arrived and in the early 2000's were market leader with 30% of the market. Hoover had slipped to third place while Simpson retained its 2nd place. Hoover was sold off in Australia in the early 90's by Maytag to recover the costs from its disasterous free flights promotion in the UK. By the late 90's the company that purchased the Hoover operations, Southcorp, wanted to get out of what it considered to be an unprofitable business compared to other investments such as wine... In its efforts to downsize the Hoover front loader was the first to go just as the demand from front loaders was beginning to grow. Then Southcorp sold its interests to Email, the company that owned Simpson and Westinghouse. As we know Email was absorbed into the Electrolux group and the Hoover name dissappeared from Australian laundries. Apparently Email only bought the rights to the Hoover name and Hoover overseas would not allow it to become part of the Australian Electrolux family.

Post# 323870 , Reply# 20 1/12/2009 at 21:14 (5,576 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Addendum* Apparently the ACCC allowed the Southcorp selloff to Email because of Fisher and Paykels growing manufacturing presence in Australia. So much for the ACCC regulations because now neither Fisher and Paykel, Simpson or Hoover make washing machines anymore. I drive past the old Hoover factory in Meadowbank everyday and it is so sad to see the derelict old building.

Post# 323895 , Reply# 21 1/12/2009 at 23:16 (5,576 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Where's my.......* I could say a few things about the ACCC that would make more than my laundry bloo.... So thanks to them (and a couple of other factors), we now have next to no appliance manufacturing in this country....

Post# 323909 , Reply# 22 1/13/2009 at 03:51 (5,576 days old) by magic clean ()
Checkrate/Likes "My understanding is that FL sales now exceed TL sales in the USA". Top-load washer sales still far outnumber front-load. I seem to recall hearing they make up about 60% of new washer sales. L.P.

Post# 324397 , Reply# 23 1/14/2009 at 18:13 (5,574 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *Just for interests sake* Here is a picture of the Hoover 465

Post# 324398 , Reply# 24 1/14/2009 at 18:14 (5,574 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)
Checkrate/Likes And here is the Zodiac, with the brown control panel.

Post# 324629 , Reply# 25 1/15/2009 at 18:36 (5,573 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)
Checkrate/Likes *I've tried......* ...to get my parents to replace the 'old' Hoover top loader with an older Zodiac or a leter Electra....but I just can't convince them even though it won't do a full wash (it floods!) and uses a huge amount of water....

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