Thread Number: 21167
KD-12 TIMER MOTOR NEEDED! 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 334384   3/8/2009 at 20:54 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        

in a followup to an earlier post concerning my timer problem with my kd-12 i can now say for sure that the timer motor is not working. i took the timer off the machine tonite and tested the motor with 120 volts. absolutely nothing. i can rotate the motor gear myself and it turns freely but the motor is definately burnt out.

does anyone know where i could get another motor or possibly send the timer for a repair job that would get it running again. i would love to keep this timer on the dishwasher instead of having to use a timer from another dishwasher, of which i have several. i want to preserve this machine in it's origional form.

here are some pics for all the timer lovers out there and to show what this little motor looks like!

appreciate any feedback, help etc.

pete




Post# 334386 , Reply# 1   3/8/2009 at 20:56 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
more

 timer again

Post# 334388 , Reply# 2   3/8/2009 at 20:56 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
more

 more timer

Post# 334389 , Reply# 3   3/8/2009 at 20:58 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
timer motor

 the motor

Post# 334390 , Reply# 4   3/8/2009 at 20:59 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
timer motor

 more

Post# 334392 , Reply# 5   3/8/2009 at 21:00 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
more

 more motor

Post# 334393 , Reply# 6   3/8/2009 at 21:01 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
last pic

 one more

Post# 334404 , Reply# 7   3/8/2009 at 21:40 (5,525 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)        

58limited's profile picture
Is there any manufacturer or model ID engraved on the timer motor? It might be a fairly standard motor.

As far as rebuilding, try searching for an automotve clock rebuilder. Or, maybe some of the vintage stove restorers can do it.

Post# 334452 , Reply# 8   3/9/2009 at 09:01 (5,525 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Try this guy

 jetcone's profile picture
I got some motors from him and they are a good price!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO jetcone's LINK
Post# 334466 , Reply# 9   3/9/2009 at 10:09 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
thanks

 i contacted skycraft, they said they might have one. does anyone know what rpm this motor turns at?

Post# 334561 , Reply# 10   3/9/2009 at 17:19 (5,525 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
check and then ask!

 Peter, do as suggested above. Check for numbers on the timer and then ask some of the guys on here to check the motors on the 14 series timers or even earlier models. Chances are that the motors are pretty similar as they didnt really change the cycles all that much. Even the 14 Superba had the same dial and cycles as the older machines, they just added the rapid advance motor and chain setup on it. I think you might strike it rich that way! I say give it a shot!
Steve

Post# 334576 , Reply# 11   3/9/2009 at 19:26 (5,525 days old) by soberleaf ()        
thanks everyone, and hey steve

 thanks, i will do that. for now i wired it up to 3 external switches in a small project box that sits on top of my "dishwasher row" counter where the kd-12 and 4 other kd's are. one turns on motor, one turns on fill valve, one closes drain valve so it is in manual mode till i get a timer motor. i only want to run it for fun ever so often anyway, this way i can make my own cycle. i do that with all my machines that i use as a "main machine" and also put a switch in to turn off timer motor so i can put any of em in manual mode. the kdss-17a will have this as well. again it's always external so not to screw up the control panel of the machine itself.

it's a fun way to make any dishwasher do anything you want.

quick question steve if you are out there. bought couple of pump seals from hobart today for kd-15-17's and this is first time i got one's with a metal disk that fits into drain impeller, all others have always been ceramic. even one's i have got from hobart. does it matter which side of the metal disk is facing the other half of the seal, the part that fits in the drain pump assembly? people at hobart did not know.

thanks

Post# 334585 , Reply# 12   3/9/2009 at 20:33 (5,524 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Seal of Approval!

 Peter, if there are 3 small dimples on one side of the seal surface either the metal one or the ceramic one, that side goes facing up, into the drain impeller. If you have it upside down it will leak. If the both sides are smooth, it doesn't matter.

Do take note of how many shim washers you remove from the seal on each motor. They determine the proper working height of the drain and pump impellers. The rule of thumb is to replace them exactly the same way you take them out. That should do fine. There was (and is, since I have one) a tool that was used as a "clear/touch" gage which ensured proper hts.

If you also bought kits for the 18 and up units, you will see that little white plastic item that is used for the same purpose. Instructions and shims happen to come with those seals so you should have less problems installing them. The shims, btw, are the same as the 15-17 shims.
There are different diameter shims (O.D) so be careful where you take them out of.The smaller ones go on the motor and the larger ones go above the oring which is positioned on the shaft after you place the drain impeller and its seal into place.
Does this all make sense? Think about this when you disassemble it and it will be very clear!
If not, feel free to ask!
Steve

Post# 334604 , Reply# 13   3/9/2009 at 22:04 (5,524 days old) by soberleaf ()        
thanks

 yes i used to have that tool about twenty years ago, wish i had it now, oh well. i do take note of how many shims on each one, but have in the past just eyeballed it and guess i got lucky cause i never had a leak yet. but i appreciate your expert advice as always and with these latest 3 machines (15, 16 and 17) i have made notes on what came out. the kdss-17a i am not replacing seals on yet, it seems fine and i am using it as my daily machine.

i did watch for and am still watching for that water leak around the hot air entrance, as yet no leak, and that white wire you mentioned was piggybacked with the main white lead and connected to the blower motor. all is well with the kdss at the moment.

i did order a seal for the kd-12 today from hobart just in case this one starts leaking i'll have it. now on to find a timer motor. there is a feisty guy on e bay with a place in arizona and he says he is the sole provider of old timer motors. sent him an e mail today, we'll see.

as mentioned for now the kd-12 will be on manual mode till i find that motor. my next step is to get the kdi-15 back together with new seal, then on to the kdi-16 i bought for 15 bucks on e bay, then to the kds-17a i picked up in louisville recently. then that's it, i'm done!!

i think

Post# 334614 , Reply# 14   3/9/2009 at 23:17 (5,524 days old) by oldappliancenut ()        
no no

 you have one waiting here lol

Post# 334645 , Reply# 15   3/10/2009 at 03:21 (5,524 days old) by soberleaf ()        
hey look another kds-17

 oh yes, can't forget my kds-17a that is waiting for me in
pennsylvania! beautiful looking! i'll make room for it somewhere!!!!!

Post# 334749 , Reply# 16   3/10/2009 at 16:17 (5,524 days old) by fltcoils (South Bend, Indiana)        
Is it dead or is the gear broken?

 www.davesrepair.com/Parts/9956650...

www.davesrepair.com/DIYhelp/DIYKs...

Post# 334766 , Reply# 17   3/10/2009 at 19:12 (5,524 days old) by soberleaf ()        
it died of old age

 it's dead, tested it with 120 volts, nothing!

Post# 334780 , Reply# 18   3/10/2009 at 20:51 (5,523 days old) by fltcoils (South Bend, Indiana)        

In case you don't find a replacement, consider fiddling with the motor a bit.

Are the windings still showing 1000 ohms or so, does it draw any current when hooked up? The point of this is that a motors magnet windings are very hardy. Usually a failure is simply a loose connection to the lead wires, or bad grease. The armature is a simple stamped piece of sheet metal, bent into a cake pan shape. There's no brushes to wear no wires to break. The only wires just sit in place and never move.

But 50 year old grease/oil very predictably goes bad.

My maytags A606 timer motor broke, the output gear breaks, the armature and gear works will spin but the output gear will not. Perhaps tho' your armature does not spin. That's easy to see with some, where the case exposes the armature, and difficult with others that cover the armature. Can you see the armature, I could not in your pictures...? Sometimes you can actually push it around with a toothpick and make it start turning.

These are a simple syncronous motor, not a induction type. They have no torque, so they are easily stopped if the binding is near the armature stage. Something such as old grease will slow or stop the spinning armature. The old grease seizes up the gear shafts.

So...one could drop it in degreasing solvent overnight, then dry in the sunshine and use clock oil on the bushings.

or not.
But I've had fun fiddling with these in the past.

Post# 334798 , Reply# 19   3/10/2009 at 22:36 (5,523 days old) by soberleaf ()        
sounds good

 the motor no. is 2677770 and it is 13 watts, it is sealed so i cannot see any interior workings. but if i turn the gear myself counterclockwise it turns smoothly and freely, "feeling" like all gear mechanisms are fine. the only place to add any solvent or oil would be where the wires go in (slight gap) or maybe around the gear shaft.

i don't see any way to take this motor apart.

thanks

Post# 334890 , Reply# 20   3/11/2009 at 12:03 (5,523 days old) by fltcoils (South Bend, Indiana)        
oil here

 Gear axles easy to see

Oil with a tiny bit of oil

Post# 334891 , Reply# 21   3/11/2009 at 12:10 (5,523 days old) by fltcoils (South Bend, Indiana)        

You can also try to get to the armature,

The cover appears to be held in place by crimping. One might drimel grind thru a bit of those crimps. Then one could pry them out of the way and get to the motor.

It really is easier to disassemble than modern welded plastic covers (i.e. a laptop battery case)

Post# 335009 , Reply# 22   3/11/2009 at 22:28 (5,522 days old) by soberleaf ()        
you guys are great!

 what ideas you have! all kinds of good stuff, and i do have a dremel. what weight oil, 3 in one??

i will try these things, what the hell it doesn't run now so i can't do it much harm can i?!

oh yea, it did say model A on it too for anyone is familiar with timer motor numbers.

thanks

Post# 335167 , Reply# 23   3/12/2009 at 17:46 (5,522 days old) by soberleaf ()        
i took motor apart

 i did as you suggested and used my dremel to take the motor apart. even with the motor off the rest of the unit and it's stator or whatever it would be called turning freely when i plug it in nothing happens. it has to have a burnt out winding or some loose wiring in the winding itself.

thanks for the help anyway

Post# 335169 , Reply# 24   3/12/2009 at 18:13 (5,522 days old) by soberleaf ()        
it seems to be dead

 i did as you suggested and took motor apart using my dremel. even with motor out of gear box and turning very freely there is nothing when i give it power. windings have to be shot i would say. but hey i tried and thanks for the help! i'm gonna look for a substitute motor.

Post# 335417 , Reply# 25   3/14/2009 at 10:56 (5,520 days old) by fltcoils (South Bend, Indiana)        
Pics of disassembled motor?

 You've given it a good try. Congradulations on that.

Would you have the time to snap some pics of this motor, and of the gearbox, now in the disassembled state? That might be a helpful reference to anyone who has a similar malfunctioning part sometime later. Someone who might follow your lead to try and get theirs working.

If the windings carry current then there IS a magnetic field to spin the armature. Does the armature spin freely in it's bearings or is it binding? Usually there's a crimp connection between the plastic insulated wire leads (which exit the motor), and the varnished solid tiny wire that makes the coil. Sometimes corrosion can rot the wire enough to break right at that crimped connection.

Good luck on retrofitting a coil into the motor, or finding a complete motor.

Post# 335505 , Reply# 26   3/14/2009 at 22:48 (5,519 days old) by soberleaf ()        
i will get pics

 i will take pics, not tonite however. have to work early tomorrow, just got off work, am too tired to be a good photographer tonite.

nothing was binding up at all. i figured it had to be a wiring issue of some type.

could that little motor be rewired by me? can i get wire that small these days? just curious. actually i have a friend on this site that has a timer for me. he's a godsend! but i am curious as to whether it is something that could be rewired or not? when i was in high school i was in electrical training and we rewired motors all the time, only bigger 1/3 h.p. models.

pics to come!

thanks

Post# 335569 , Reply# 27   3/15/2009 at 09:24 (5,519 days old) by fltcoils (South Bend, Indiana)        
Probably not rewire

 But you could fix a broken magwire/leadwire termination. That is not too hard.

Rewiring motors is a good skill. I bet there are a few here who would love to learn how to rewire a failed stator for one of these appliance motors.

Post# 335724 , Reply# 28   3/15/2009 at 21:11 (5,518 days old) by soberleaf ()        
all those years ago

 we re-wound those motors in 'electric shop" in high school and that for me was in 1971! i remember it was a bit tricky, definately a skill that we were taught, and our motors did run after we finished. now i haven't a clue how we did it. i took spanish in high school and don't remember that either! i can say "pass the salt" and that's it!

this little timer motor has very simple wiring, just thought maybe if i could get the wire i could give it a try but i don't have to worry about it as a friend on this site has a kd-12 timer for me.

i will post those pics on a seperate thread here tonite.


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