Thread Number: 27345
Anyone have experience with the new full-sized Bosch Vision washers? Why the manufacturer's rebates? 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 420026   3/3/2010 at 09:24 (5,165 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

Most of you know that Bosch sells European size (24"/60 cm wide) "Axxis" machines in the US (still 240V as far as I know), plus US-sized (27"/70 cm wide) "Vision" 120V machines.

Formerly, the larger size washers were sold as "Nexxt", with an odd-looking door that looked as if it might be hinged on top, but it was hinged on the left in conventional fashion. The controls on the Nexxt were on TOP of the washer (front of the top panel), which was probably convenient for users (less stooping to see controls), but the placement of controls prevented using Nexxt in a stacked configuration.

I recently checked Bosch's website and the Nexxt line has disappeared in favor of the Vision line. These have conventional doors and conventional placement of controls. The number of models was reduced to three (though mid-range 500 comes three ways: two water-stop options or no option): 300, 500, 600. Formerly, the lower models of Nexxt did not have internal heaters, but now even the most basic model 300 has a heater.

Anyone have experience with these new models? The most recent version of Consumer Reports, for what it's worth, does not rate them very highly on cleaning ability. I seem to remember that the Nexxt models received fairly high ratings. I also noted on a retailer's site that Bosch is offering $100-200 rebates (in the form of a prepaid VISA card) on the purchase of all of its washers.

I realize that CR is not the world's most reliable source. In particular, they don't test reliability or durability with their short-term tests. However, they do test each washer's ability to clean a similar load of clothing, so I do pay attention to their ratings for washing ability, noise, etc. You just have to be well-informed and realize that some highly-rated washers (example: Frigidaire 2940), that are a good value for price and features may have long-term reliability problems (example: broken aluminum spider) that CR just can't test.

That said, anyone have any idea why Bosch washers are getting a bad rap? Were they redesigned to use less water and now can't clean decently? I noted they are Tier 3 for water use and thus qualify for most rebates offered by utilities and water districts. The fact that I saw $100-200 rebates offered by retailers is not a good sign, though, as if they know their product line isn't doing well and needs a boost. $200 is nothing to sniff at, but if the machine has quality issues, better to buy a competitor that at least works well, even if it means spending extra money.




Post# 420034 , Reply# 1   3/3/2010 at 10:04 (5,165 days old) by mysteryclock (Franklin, TN)        

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I have a Nexxt 500 and it looks like they did a major redesign of the Vision washer. It is now a non-tilted horizontal axis washer with front controls, a redesigned detergent drawer, smaller paddles and can even be stacked! The Vision dryer looked the same inside the drum as my Nexxt, but I don't know if they've made any internal changes.

As far as I know they are still made in New Bern, NC, so I wouldn't suspect that quality slipped dramatically from the Nexxt series unless they totally cheaped out on the internals.

And I can't imagine why they wouldn't be rated that well in CR, although I have about zero trust for their rankings since otherwise identical products can vary, dramatically, year over year for no good reason.



Post# 420040 , Reply# 2   3/3/2010 at 10:48 (5,165 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

The Nexxt series always received middle to high scores on CR. I always liked the unusual design, but the control placement would have shut out consumers who need to stack their machines. I am in that situation because my laundry area is in the garage (welcome to California...) and there is a code-required bollard (concrete filled steel pipe embedded in the slab--protects against runaway cars) right in front of the washer space. House built 1988--when few if any FL were sold in US, so they didn't know the placement of the pipe would block the door of any future FL!

Some neighbors have cut down the pipes, but I understand it's required by building code and could result in the owner being required to replace the bollard prior to sale. I decided to work within the existing limitations and selected a FL washer and dryer that could be stacked (in my case, Frigidaire 2140 and 1442 gas dryer). The units are 36" high, and the stack bracket adds maybe a half inch to stack height, so the top of the dryer is about 72.5 inches high. At my height of 71" (5'11"), this is a comfortable height for removing dryer clothes and operating dryer controls. I placed the stack in the dryer space (no pipe in front) and placed a small table for folding clothes (or to support a laundry basket) in what used to be the washer space. I mounted a ready-made utility cabinet from Lowes right above this space for added storage.

Some of the new larger machines (e.g. Electrolux, Whirlpool) "can" be stacked, but because these machines partly achieve their huge capacities by being deeper and taller, the height of these units approaches 40", resulting in a stack 80-81" high (6'8" or about 2.04 meters)---I could reach the controls and remove clothes from an arrangement this tall, but it wouldn't be comfortable, and probably impossible for anyone a good deal shorter than I.

Pacific Sales, a large upscale retailer here, had problems with customers who wanted the biggest and best (Electrolux) machines that could stack and then--at installation time--the woman of the house can't reach the controls. They now have displays with various size washers/dryers in built-in stack configurations, so you can envision the height of the stack as it will stand in your home.

This has either discouraged purchase of the largest machines (if customer can only have a stacked configuration) or has convinced people who had the option to stack (or not stack) to use a side by side configuration. Such a display lets the customer envision the stooping needed to unload the washer, as well as determine if the dryer is at a comfortable height. They don't have every brand in a stack display, but they have a set of 36", 38" and 39.5"(=Electrolux) machines for comparison. The 36" machines are represented by a Frigidaire 2940 and its companion dryer. The retailer has found that displaying the heights at the store leads to fewer unpleasant surprises (and unhappy customers) on installation day.

My 2140 still washes fine after four years, but I know it may have a limited lifespan due to the well-known issue of spider bracket corrosion. So I keep up with latest models in case my 2140 should check out on short notice and I have to make a quick decision on a replacement. Several of the Affinity washers will still accept the StackIt2 bracket used by my 2140 and 1442 dryer, so an economical option would be to buy a stackable Affinity and just re-use the dryer, which works fine. Controls would no longer match but big deal.

If the 2140 survives longer, say ten years, and then it's time maybe to replace both units, I am keeping my eye on the new Bosch washers because of the company reputation and their new stackability---something the Nexxt washers lacked. In addition, Lowes sells them, which helps to keep all of the local retailers' prices down. I was a little dismayed to see the mediocre CR ratings, but maybe that will change. I know the new Vision washers meet the strict new Tier 3 water ratings, so I wonder if the machine was re-engineered---versus your Nexxt washer---to use so little water that it just can't wash very well. Time will tell, and hopefully by the time I have to replace a machine, there will be more information on this new generation of Bosch washers.

Post# 420055 , Reply# 3   3/3/2010 at 11:49 (5,165 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

It might not wash well and it might not rinse well either. If you can't rinse the soil and detergent out of the fabrics, you don't have good washing performance. I read somewhere, either here or in the Laundry Room some years ago that Bosch washers at that time and I don't know what models they would have been, did not handle suds well at all. They were not able to spin loads like towels when the spin squeezed sudsy water from the load. They sudslocked and had to stop and pump out before spinning again, just like that damn Duet I had. I don't know if Bosch has fixed that.

Post# 420138 , Reply# 4   3/3/2010 at 15:42 (5,164 days old) by mysteryclock (Franklin, TN)        

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I've never had mine stop and drain in an oversuds situation but I have had it go into "suds reduction" (probably +cooling) mode when things got too foamy, and that really extends the wash cycle. The key I've found is to *always* use a low-sudsing detergent or it'll take twenty forevers to finish a load.

PassatDoc - "bollard", so that's what those things are called! We have one (almost certainly by code) bolted and concrete filled as a Maginot Line in front of our hot water heater, so to speak.

Post# 420191 , Reply# 5   3/3/2010 at 18:33 (5,164 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        
@mysteryclock

 In my situation, there is a recessed alcove along the rear wall of the garage, in which are located, left to right:

WATER HEATER**DRYER SPACE**WASHER SPACE**FURNACE

Some models in our neighborhood have the laundry alcove along the side wall of the garage, with the furnace located inside the house in a closet. I am not sure where the water heater is placed in these models, but they are not required to have a bollard in front of their washer/dryer. As a result, the move to FL laundry has been easier for people in these designs. I have a neighbor who had my layout who installed a Maytag Neptune stacked unit (gas dryer) in the washer space and placed a second garage refrigerator in the dryer space. He must have cut down the bollard, it is nowhere in sight.

I suppose someone with a car in forward and not reverse (or someone backing into the garage who goes too far) could take out three gas lines with burners going, if the furnace, water heater, and dryer were all on at once. I do know someone who backed into his garage too far and took out the washer and dryer (fortunately, in an all electric home!!!). The home was built in the 1960s, when bollards were not part of code. My parents have an all-electric home from 1972 with a bollard, presumably protecting the water heater/washer/dryer along the back wall.

Post# 420198 , Reply# 6   3/3/2010 at 18:55 (5,164 days old) by favorit ()        
"...they weren't able to spin a towel load ..."

 Tom, that actually is not a fault.

Vintage machines (that had not this feature) weren't able to spin straight after the main wash drain, otherwise they would make a mess [first hand test :-) ]. Not a case many of them don't spin after the 1st and 2nd rinse, just after 3rd and following. My 26 y.o. machine does just like that

Things were different in commercial machines with a dump valve instead of a drain pump : centrifugal force literally spun foam out of the valve.

The ability to spin immediately after the main wash is crucial to improve rinse quality. If the machine wouldn't quit spinning, those suds would remain inside the tub till the next fill. My younger miele during the main wash spin ramps up to 1000 rpm very slowly, to allow the pump duty

Different brands can have some differences to approach this issue. Usually the spin quits, suds turn into liquor and are pumped out, then the spin restarts. If ths happens more than twice, the machines engages one or more rinses before the final one.

A.E.G. washers had a particular system called "sensortronic"
Maybe you remember this old thread where Louis explained the difference between Variomatic (intervalled) and Sensortronic spin. IIRC his Lavamat is one of the first models with this system :

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