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Thread Number: 28645
Gordon, my Kenmore needs your help! |
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Post# 437359 5/25/2010 at 13:25 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87  (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Model: #110-82183110
Serial: #C21914437 Stock: #21831 Remember that 1981 Kenmore 80 Series I took in for repairs at the request of the original owner? I've FINALLY had time to look into it. I've noticed a few issues. First, the 2-port pump is seized. This comes as no surprise and can easily be replaced (relatively). All the other pulleys turn easily and when I spin the transmission pulley the wig wag goes back and forth. The second issue is more troubling. I put a rug across the front of the cabinet to protect the finish and, not wanting to lay the machine down, tipped the machine forward to the point where it balanced at about 45 degrees, or a little less, and propped it there against the wall. Once tilted, I was able to find the adjusting nut on the back side of the motor and loosen the belt tension to check the pump pulley (seized). When I tipped it forward, however, water came out. I thought that, like my GE FF, the pump started to leak through the bearings, which caused the pump failure. After a few moments of leaking, however, the stream of water turned to dripping oil. I also noticed a light coating of oil on the transmission case and the pump, and it just started to get more depressing from there. I righted the machine so I could explore some profanity while switching a load of laundry from my '72 70 series to the DE806. Once finished, I tilted the machine forward again to have another look and it leaked water in a steady stream again, then oil in a steady stream, then oil dripping. I think the transmission needs to be removed, all seals replaced, and new oil put in. I've never worked on a belt drive before and I'll admit, I'm scared of it. I know that addressing the transmission is a big job. I just don't know how to approach it. I'm going to need to order a Belt Drive repair manual (any suggestions on a good one?) and I'll definitely need any advice that can be given regarding what to do. I have no clue how to take a belt drive transmission out, much less how to take it apart, service it, and put it back together. What part or parts failed that resulted in this? Also, I don't have the centerpost bearing removal or installation tools. Will this be a problem? Thus far, I have not removed the pump nor have I disconnected the hoses to it. Thank you so much for your help! Dave CLICK HERE TO GO TO Volvoguy87's LINK | ||
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Post# 437360 , Reply# 1 5/25/2010 at 13:28 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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A likk to some pics.
The link is to a thread I had posted showing some washers in my basement, including the one described above.
Dave CLICK HERE TO GO TO Volvoguy87's LINK | ||
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Post# 437393 , Reply# 3 5/25/2010 at 15:19 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Post# 437398 , Reply# 4 5/25/2010 at 15:36 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Thanks Gordon. | ||
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Post# 437399 , Reply# 5 5/25/2010 at 15:41 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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OK, let's try this again. I had nearly the whole thing typed out and lost it, even after previewing.
In a nutshell Dave, I would tell the owner that the washer is beyond repair and see what she wants to do. The work involved is MAJOR for even a seasoned servicer and you're putting yourself potentially in a situation where you could be backed against a wall trying to do stuff on a learning curve that may or may not affect the outcome of your work. Forget the pump for now, its the least of your issues. If I were closer, I'd do it for you. The work can be done, but it would take me literally all day and I've done this exact work countless times. First, let me say one thing that I thought of as soon as you mentioned the 45-degree angle deal....DO NOT DO THAT with someone else's machine. I say this from experience. I have always propped machines against the wall, as it makes access fairly easy and oil doesn't usually leak unless the transmission is full like yours was. There is a big risk taken in the machine suddenly shifting, and you either have it come at your while it pivots, or the console slams into the wall, or both, especially if a slipperly rug is underneath it. Some of the work to fix this machine is going to require "man-handling" it and it won't be stable enough propped against a wall. As to tools you need - you will definitely need a bearing remover, an installer, and a seal installer. You will also need a bearing kit, turbine oil, some white lithium grease, and either a replacement transmission or the two internal transmission springs, the shaft seal, 15 ounces of 60wt. ND oil, and possibly the gearcase gasket. Starting a new reply... | ||
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Post# 437401 , Reply# 6 5/25/2010 at 15:50 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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On tilting.
The rug was on the front of the washer to prevent the paint (actually porcelain I think) from getting scratched by the wall. The washer was not on the rug. I used ratcheting straps to secure it to a plumbing stack so the bottom wouldn't shift and it would stay in place. I like belt drive washers but I don't want one landing on my face, head, arms, hands, or other appendages. I tend to take extra precautions when working with heavy things.
Is this Instant Messaging AW.org style? Dave | ||
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Post# 437402 , Reply# 7 5/25/2010 at 15:51 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Ebay usually has a good repair manual. My favorite is from the mid to late 80s and is white, light blue, and gray in color on the front. I'll look for one later and reply if I find one. This even features the 1983 version of your machine, which was a 23811. It was produced by Sears or for them.
I could go on and on about this, but the parts that failed are the centerpost seals and the spin tube seal. They didn't really fail, they just got worn out. Most people don't think about this, but these machines ALL require (BD and DD machines that is) an air gap to form under the agitator. With 22+ gallons of water above the agitator skirt, there is a lot of downforce pressure caused by the weight of the water, which WILL flow up into the inside of the agitator if it can find a way to flow out. When the seals are strong, they trap air, which gets compressed and water seldom rises much above the agitator skirt. As the seals wear, water rises further and further on the centerpost. In your 1972 machine, the centerpost is tall enough to approximate high water level height, and these machines tolerated some pretty lousy seals and still kept running. BUT, this centerpost was revised in 1978 to improve bearing life, which was killing many machines very prematurely. So, the post was shorted by something like 5 inches, which extended the life of most bearings indefinitely, but subjected the machines to water contamination. For a long time I didn't know what was worse, but the water contamination seems to take longer to happen than typical failed bearings in the earlier machines, so the newer ones probably lasted longer in general due to this modification. Once the seals fail, water can flow into the centerpost, carry away the centerpost lubrication, wear the bearings, and flood the transmission and basket drive, just as you found. Your transmission got full of water because the same seal that wears which allows oil to drain out allowed the water in. Posting now....lol | ||
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Post# 437403 , Reply# 8 5/25/2010 at 16:00 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Seals.
Is it possible to replace the seals without changing the bearings or is it best to do it all at once? I have other belt drives, like my '72, and would like to ensure this does not happen to them. Do I need a special tool just for the seals or can they be replaced without a tool?
The owner of the washer originally listed it for sale as parts and they do have a replacement washer in place now. She just REALLY likes this one and when she found out there are people who actually like old washers she was eager to have it fixed. Time is not an issue and cost is what she is willing to pay. Thanks for your insight, Dave | ||
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Post# 437404 , Reply# 9 5/25/2010 at 16:03 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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If I were doing this to fix this washer to appreciate and use for years to come, here's what I would do:
1) Either find a replacement transmission or prepare to rebuild this one. John Lefever doesn't like rebuilding these gearcases once they've been flooed, and he may ultimately prove correct, but I am using one that I put thousands of loads on it's clock, without issue, but I thorougly cleaned every part of it with a parts washer and all new FSP oil, etc. 2) Remove the bearings and seals. You WILL need the three tools to do the removal and installation. 3) Re-seal the spin-tube or replace it. It may be too worn with grooves anyway, but at the least prepare to re-seal the spin tube. If the tube is worn with heavy grooves, it will prematurely wear the new bearings. 4) Before doing all this work, ascertain the condition of the outer tub and centerpost tub gasket. If after all the other work, the tub starts to leak, you'll kick yourself repeatedly. 5) Then replace the pump. 6) Be prepared that the repair manuals don't usually cover the extensive work required to open a transmission. Some manual have bearing job instructions, some don't, but the Whirlpool bearing kit comes with an instruction sheet. I hope I'm not intimidating you, but this is heavy work for a first-timer. Do you want me to describe each step, or should I wait for you to decide what to do? Gordon | ||
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Post# 437405 , Reply# 10 5/25/2010 at 16:09 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Descriptions Please!
Even if I don't end up doing that work on this machine, I have others that may need it in the future (and a 1981 Electronic Lady Kenmore that may need it now, I've never tested it). I can use the Super Searchalator to find the thread in the future.
Please give a step by step description of the work required. Any photos you may have would be great. I know Robert posted some of the opening of a transmission of a 1950s WP at some point in the past, but I can't locate them at the moment. If I ever get to NC or you find yourself in Cincinnati, I'll owe you a beverage of your choice, Dave | ||
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Post# 437408 , Reply# 11 5/25/2010 at 16:15 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Is it possible to replace the seals without changing the bea
Not really, not in this machine anyway. You CAN do that in your '72 and any 1977 or older machine, as they have one thin seal atop the bearings which you can bend with a screw driver and pry out. Replacement is then easy. If you don't have a seal installer tool (I don't), you can do what I did and use a piece of galvinized pipe long enough to engulf the agitator shaft and use it to push in the seals.
In your machine though and anything 1978 or newer, there are two seals installed in tandem, and they are about three times more stout than the original. I have never tried to pry those out and remove them. It would probably take twice as long as it does to pull the upper bearing with the puller. In the case of water flooded bearings, they may be worn due to water and lack of lubrication, and I would not want to use them. If there are any air caps in them from wear, they will just allow this to happen again more quickly. Let me know if you want me to continue Dave. Gordon | ||
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Post# 437409 , Reply# 12 5/25/2010 at 16:21 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Of course! | ||
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Post# 437418 , Reply# 13 5/25/2010 at 16:47 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Post# 437420 , Reply# 14 5/25/2010 at 16:49 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Post# 437421 , Reply# 15 5/25/2010 at 16:51 (5,077 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Post# 437423 , Reply# 16 5/25/2010 at 16:56 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Preparing to order literature! | ||
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Post# 437478 , Reply# 17 5/25/2010 at 20:06 (5,077 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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REBUILDING A WATER LOGED BD WASHER
Dave the way I would approach this rebuild if you want to learn how to do this would be to bring the machine and yourself to our shop in maryland. You and Gordon and I could tear it apart and see what it really needs. There are so many variables in fixing something that has this failure that a hands on experience with one or two people who have done this hundreds of times would be the easiest way to learn. I also have a appliance repair friend in Cleveland who you could work if you don't want to go so far. As far as fixing some of your other machines you may have its not as hard if water hasn't gotten into the transmission. On the machine you mentioned with water in the trans you should replace the spin tube its not likely you need center post bearings but you will either need another trans or have to rework the one you have Good luck let us know if we can help.
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Post# 437490 , Reply# 18 5/25/2010 at 20:52 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Thanks Combo52.
I wish I could go to Maryland, but that's just too far from Cincinnati and I can't transport an entire machine there. My parents live in Virginia and I visit them from time to time. It would be GREAT to take a side trip from there for some heavy duty appliance repair learning if you have a machine laying around in need of some service.
Would it be feasible to remove the transmission and baseplate and take them to Cleveland? If anyone there would be willing to teach me how to do this repair, I would be very thankful indeed. Does anyone know the part numbers for the centerpost bearing and seal installation and removal tools? I think I should own a set, I just need to know what to look for so I can try to find a set at an affordable price. Thank you very much, Dave | ||
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Post# 437514 , Reply# 19 5/25/2010 at 23:49 (5,077 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Manuals ordered. | ||
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Post# 438103 , Reply# 20 5/28/2010 at 20:59 (5,074 days old) by KenmoreGuy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Dave -
I hope the manuals are useful for you! I know they were for me early on. I haven't been online much the last few days, but have given some thought to John's post about the involved work your washer will need, and I agree with him. I still say it will need bearings, at least the top one, because the seals are almost impossible to get out without pulling the top bearing, and it's the seals that caused the problem, but otherwise he's right. Life with this washer would be much simpler for you and probably more fun and educational if you have an knowledgeable cohort to help you through the steps and get you beyond the unexpected diversions that belt-drives sometimes throw at you. Rather than a text-book step by step on how to take apart your machine and restore it, time would be better spent with a hands-on type thing as an 'instruct and learn-as-you-go'. Gordon | ||
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