Thread Number: 29402
New line of Kenmore dishwashers...
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Post# 447277   7/5/2010 at 21:20 (5,014 days old) by cwheeler ()        

Hey guys, if you go over to the Kenmore website, they have a new line of dishwashers coming out later this month. if you look in the little flash box thingy, it'll appear - click on the "learn more" button. Apparently, if you pre-order now, you can get 20% off, but it's still ridiculously expensive. Can't tell who makes them by looking at them and I'm not convinced that the design of the wash arm is going to actually work with so few holes...
Anyhoo, looks interesting...





Post# 447324 , Reply# 1   7/6/2010 at 00:36 (5,014 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
It looks like they're whirlpool made.

Post# 447354 , Reply# 2   7/6/2010 at 07:56 (5,013 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Hmmm...

mrb627's profile picture
It wouldn't surprise me if they were LG made.

Malcolm


Post# 447381 , Reply# 3   7/6/2010 at 11:32 (5,013 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
An LCD touch screen? Looks like it's the new Vantage dish(washer). These new spray arms are becoming popular in Europe, too...





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Post# 447388 , Reply# 4   7/6/2010 at 11:51 (5,013 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
LG's don't have exposed heating elements, and their models all have self-cleaning filters. I doubt whichever corporate parent owns the rights to the Turbo-Zone feature would let LG co-opt it.

Those are two features of LG dishwashers that I like. In fact, I use the 160-degree rinse a lot these days, because it doesn't add 20 minutes to the cycle, as it did with my Maytag and Frigidaire machines. The elements in LG's heat the water very quickly----wherever they're hidden.

I'll put my money on them being Whirlpool-made.



Post# 447472 , Reply# 5   7/6/2010 at 18:44 (5,013 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
If these "new spray arms" that are becoming popular in europe have't been marketed on machines in Europe before until now, well, Frigidaire had something like that in the late 1960s and 1970s until White Consolidated bought them out and GE had something similar in the 1990s.

Post# 447494 , Reply# 6   7/6/2010 at 19:56 (5,013 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
That is a Whirlpool built machine.

Post# 447497 , Reply# 7   7/6/2010 at 20:00 (5,013 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        
WHAT

surgilator_68's profile picture
$1700.00 for a dishwasher? I think someone hit their head on this one.

Post# 447513 , Reply# 8   7/6/2010 at 20:57 (5,013 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I thought the same thing Jason. List for the most expensive is like $2100. Might as well fork over the $$$ for a Miele in that case. What you say?

Post# 447562 , Reply# 9   7/7/2010 at 07:04 (5,013 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
If I was so hell bent on having a dishwasher with a manual clean filter I would get the Whirlpool built machine. At least that way when it does require repair I won't have to pay the over inflated costs for parts or service.

Post# 447700 , Reply# 10   7/7/2010 at 21:48 (5,012 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
A dishwasher in my house gets very heavy use, and I'm not always diligent about scraping dishes thoroughly, so the manual-clean filter is a deal-breaker for me. I'd be emptying it constantly.

I'll trade the decibel-or-two reduction in noise for a self-cleaning filter every time.

My LG (which has a self-cleaning filter) is super quiet; can barely hear it running.


Post# 447709 , Reply# 11   7/7/2010 at 22:00 (5,012 days old) by A440 ()        
WOW! SO ENERGY EFFICIENT!

This is crazy!
What is so "Efficient" about a dishwasher that cost this much?
It would have to last 40 years and ran 4 times a day just to catch up with your investment.
I don't see any energy "savings" here!
Crazy!


Post# 447742 , Reply# 12   7/8/2010 at 00:34 (5,012 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)        
YES A440!

volvoguy87's profile picture
I run into this type of short-term thinking all the time in historic preservation. Replacement windows are the same way. In both cases, the chances of the item lasting long enough to pay for itself in energy savings is virtually nil.

Dave


Post# 447770 , Reply# 13   7/8/2010 at 06:07 (5,012 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Wow, these have long cycles!

Post# 447771 , Reply# 14   7/8/2010 at 06:12 (5,012 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
More at http://access.whirlpool.com/wdl/ -> Kenmore -> Cleaning



Post# 447819 , Reply# 15   7/8/2010 at 11:27 (5,011 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Hang onto your old machines guys and girls because insanity is ruling the appliance marketplace. One big factor in these prices is the weak dollar's exchange rate. It's not your neighbor who's making most of the appliances you see for sale. I've learned that even if the cardboard box is stamped "Made in the USA", the part inside is likely to be from China or Mexico.

Post# 447940 , Reply# 16   7/8/2010 at 23:12 (5,011 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

2 hours and 52 minutes for a single cycle!?!?! My 4 year old Ge TT has a speed cycle that cleans in 32 minutes, and normal cycle might take 50. 3 hours is ridiculous!

Post# 447945 , Reply# 17   7/8/2010 at 23:24 (5,011 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
If you max the thing out on options with the Pots n pans cycle and sani rinse it can take up to 8 hours.

Post# 447960 , Reply# 18   7/8/2010 at 23:52 (5,011 days old) by A440 ()        

8 HOURS?

That sounds reasonable to me!



Post# 447995 , Reply# 19   7/9/2010 at 04:18 (5,011 days old) by RE563 (Fort Worth, Texas)        

re563's profile picture
Surgilator_68:

I Thought that the Whirlpool/Kenmore HE Wash systems were from Bosch? Is this correct? or is it just based off the bosch wash system?


Post# 448000 , Reply# 20   7/9/2010 at 05:36 (5,011 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
It's somewhat based on the European (surprise, surprise) wash system by Whirlpool & Bauknecht. Only that the Euro models don't have the exposed heating element and a water softener.

Post# 448002 , Reply# 21   7/9/2010 at 06:16 (5,011 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
It is based on the Euro system but completely designed and built by Whirlpool.

Post# 448012 , Reply# 22   7/9/2010 at 07:33 (5,010 days old) by cwheeler ()        

Hm. Even from seeing that cool picture, I'm still not sold on how well this thing will actually clean...it looks like more novelty than function...I do think more than 5 or so jets of water might be needed....

Post# 448020 , Reply# 23   7/9/2010 at 07:56 (5,010 days old) by RE563 (Fort Worth, Texas)        

re563's profile picture
cwheeler:

I have a Bosch that I bought 3 yrs ago and the bottom wash arm only has 6 jets that Spray up to the bottom rack (there are two more on the under side that spray the filter screens). I have yet to pull something out that didn't get clean.


Post# 448035 , Reply# 24   7/9/2010 at 09:36 (5,010 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

I have the Kenmore Elite HE dishwasher.....extremely quiet and an excellent cleaner. It has alternating wash arms and a removable filter, like a Bosch. I didn't think I would like the filter system, but I very seldom have to clean it, and I don't prerinse, just scrape the dishes and in they go. The "top rack only" cycle is handy to have. But I think the turbo zone jets in the back of the tub are down too low. They should be up higher for better coverage.

Post# 448050 , Reply# 25   7/9/2010 at 11:14 (5,010 days old) by cwheeler ()        

RE563,
That's really interesting - are the holes in the arm smaller, like the old-school Maytags?


Post# 448062 , Reply# 26   7/9/2010 at 12:07 (5,010 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture




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Post# 448089 , Reply# 27   7/9/2010 at 14:35 (5,010 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Stick Out

mrb627's profile picture
Looks like the edge of the panel will stick out from under the edge of the counter. So much for being flush, I guess.

Post# 448105 , Reply# 28   7/9/2010 at 15:14 (5,010 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
It actually cleans very well. We have a lot of customers with them. Most all have the same complaint, it smells like roadkill inside. This complaint of course only comes from the people who put food in the dishwasher.

Post# 448166 , Reply# 29   7/9/2010 at 21:06 (5,010 days old) by appnut (TX)        
If you max the thing out on options with the Pots n pans cyc

appnut's profile picture
A bit misleading Json if I may be so bold to state. Of all the Whirlpool produced versions (Kenmore, Kenmore Elite, KitchenAid, Maytag et. al), Whirlpool features the Soak & Scub option--this is a 4-hour cycle whikch periodically sprays soapy water on the dishload (kind of like the enzyme soak on Kenore washer where it agitated for 15 seconds every 10 minutes). Afterr this Soak & Scrub option is finished, then it could go into the Pots 'n' Pan cycle with every option--high temp wash, sani rinse, and heated dry. That alone will be almost 3 hours or so based upon my 3 year old Kenmore Elite.

Post# 448167 , Reply# 30   7/9/2010 at 21:07 (5,010 days old) by RE563 (Fort Worth, Texas)        

re563's profile picture
cwheeler:

The "holes" are actually slits, like those currently on the Kenmore Ultra Wash HE. and my spray arms are the same "S" shape. This is why I asked the question to Sugilator. I also noticed that when Kenmore came out with the Ultra Wash HE that Bosch went from having the six jets they went to having 10 like on the Kenmore.


Post# 448171 , Reply# 31   7/9/2010 at 21:22 (5,010 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Nope, it's an all-whirlpool product with the full-size dimensions of a U.s. dishwasher, not the slightly shortened dimension of the european designed bosch.

Post# 448196 , Reply# 32   7/9/2010 at 22:19 (5,010 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
Wrong Bob. This is the new machine with the new programming and a new wash system. Not the same old 3 year old Tall Tub.

It can take up to 8 hours for the dishwasher to complete the cycle depending upon incoming water temp, soil load, load size and options selected. Such as the following combination: Pots/Pans + Power Scour(Turbo Zone) + Sani Rinse + Heated Dry + low incoming water temp. This is for informational purposes regarding customer instruct calls on dishwasher operation. As a reminder: The selling dealer is responsible for the cost of any service calls that
result in customer instruction in the use or operation of the appliance.

For 90 days after the date of purchase, Whirlpool will pay for warranty service calls performed (by other
than the selling service company), which result in a customer receiving instruction.......

Therefor, Bob, since we don't get paid to instruct the customer, you learn the quirks for the appliance before you run a call, explain that something is normal and then loose money because the manufacturer won't pay you and neither will the customer.




This post was last edited 07/09/2010 at 22:47
Post# 448200 , Reply# 33   7/9/2010 at 23:16 (5,010 days old) by A440 ()        
The video they don't want you to see!

Those videos are so sad......"New and Improved"! LOL!!





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Post# 448202 , Reply# 34   7/9/2010 at 23:19 (5,010 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Yikes!! Thanks jason!!!

Post# 448232 , Reply# 35   7/10/2010 at 02:38 (5,010 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
8 hours.

logixx's profile picture
Isn't there some point at which the dishwasher's heating phase will time out? The tech sheet for the Whirlpool GU3600XTVY2 states that the thermal hold in the main wash will time out after 55 (Pots/Pans) or 35 minutes (all other cycles). It's 45 minutes for the final rinse.

And I though Whirlpool's and Miele's Extra Silent cycles were long at 4+ hours...


Post# 448255 , Reply# 36   7/10/2010 at 08:46 (5,009 days old) by surgilator_68 (Maryland)        

surgilator_68's profile picture
I believe there is a time out. I think the the added length of the cycle has to do with the calibration of the sensors. Under normal conditions I don't think an 8 hour cycle is going to happen unless it's the very first load or after a predetermined amount of cycles have been run where it will recalibrate again. I think it is something like 213 loads before it does an auto recal. I'm not looking at the manual so I could be way off on that.

They also give you a chart of when to clean the filter depending upon soil and use. I have a feeling they will revise that in time as more people complain.


Post# 448300 , Reply# 37   7/10/2010 at 13:29 (5,009 days old) by RE563 (Fort Worth, Texas)        

re563's profile picture
surgilator_68 :

One more question. I'm really interested in getting the Kenmore Ultra Wash HE 13123. Do you have access to the timing chart on that model? if so you can e-mail it to me, but if not then the question becomes, at the beginning of each cycle, is there a pumpout/drain and for how long or does it just start with a fill for prewash?


Post# 448302 , Reply# 38   7/10/2010 at 13:41 (5,009 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Robert, there's no initial pump out.

I've attached a link to the user manual so you can see estimated cycle times.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO appnut's LINK


Post# 448312 , Reply# 39   7/10/2010 at 15:01 (5,009 days old) by RE563 (Fort Worth, Texas)        

re563's profile picture
Thanks Appnut:

I've looked through the manual. I asked because in my manual for my bosch it has a cycle chart similar to what's in the manual. Mine makes no mention of an initial pump/out drain, but it does one for 15 seconds before it start's to fill for the soil purge at the very beginning of the cycle. So since these wash systems are based off of European types, I thought maybe the Ultra Wash HE did the same.


Post# 448331 , Reply# 40   7/10/2010 at 17:40 (5,009 days old) by magic clean ()        
There can be a brief

pump out at the beginning of a cycle with a Kenmore, KitchenAid, Whirlpool or Jennair HE dishwasher. All it requires is enough residual water to submerge the soil sensor and it will initiate a drain. This water can collect from the condensation drying & if you spill enough into the machine while loading the next dirty load. The soil sensor also signals to the control when to stop draining when the sump is empty. So it will abbreviate the drain mode when possible.

I run my machine with unrinsed and lightly scraped loads. The incoming water is about 125f, if I run the faucet. Otherwise the 1st fill is at room temp. We use the Smart Wash cycle with Turbo Zone & heated dry options enabled; generally it takes about 135 to 150 minutes. The control usually runs this sequence: Prewash, Rinse, Main Wash, pulsed rinse & final rinse. About 5 gallons of water consumed. If the Turbo Zone is not selected and/or there is lighter soil, it will skip the 2nd fill.

For the heck of it, I'll run a PNP, T-Zone, Steam Sanitize & heated dry to see just how long it'll go.

I check the filter monthly & mostly there is not much there. There is some residue on the fine screen that is easily rinsed away. You'll find solid bits of waste in the coarse strainer. I.E. green beans, bread bag tab closures, bone slivers etc. We've not experienced any unpleasant odors. Good enzyme detergent prevents that.



Post# 448371 , Reply# 41   7/10/2010 at 22:35 (5,009 days old) by magic clean ()        
O.K. ran a nasty load

on Pots & Pans with the following options chosen; Turbo Zone, Hi-Temp, Steam sanitize & heated dry. Started at 7:30 p.m., just turned on the cycle complete indicator @ 11:22 p.m. So that is just shy of 4 hours.

The cycle sequence: Prewash, rinse, main wash, full rinse, final sani rinse & dry. 6 gallons used.


Post# 448372 , Reply# 42   7/10/2010 at 22:46 (5,009 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
A couple of points of interest on the new line. Only the top model, thus far future available, has Quick Rinse (or Rinse & Hold). The rest of the new line doesn't . The top two models have Smart Dry, which also includes FAN ASSISTED drying!!! I'm still not convinced about normal wash temp being 105 degrees and high-temp wash option being 120 degrees can be effective. And with phosphates ging away... There's gonna have to be more enzymes put in detergents since they do better at lower temps.

Post# 448374 , Reply# 43   7/10/2010 at 23:05 (5,009 days old) by magic clean ()        
Bob

the lower wash temps have been around now for 4+ years. It does fine. In fact there are several benefits to using a lower temp. I know its hard to get your mind wrapped around this, but it does work. I'm using phosphate free Cascade action packs at the moment and the cleaning has been equal to the phosphated version. That said, the water here is not that hard. It helps to use good detergents too.

Post# 448415 , Reply# 44   7/11/2010 at 08:14 (5,008 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Lower wash temps: The "Quick" cycle on my LG uses a 104 degree wash, so I'm not surprised to learn that lower temps have moved into "Normal" cycles.

You'll notice in the top photo in Reply #26 (thanks for the links, Logixx) there is a "High Temp" option as well as a "Sani Rinse" option. I'm assuming the high temp setting boosts the wash temp to 120-140 degrees.

Leslie---glad to know someone else is getting good results with the new phosphate-free Cascade products in soft water. And as with other major changes in product formulation, the chemists at Cascade will probably be tweaking the formula to make it work better in hard water over the next few months.



Post# 448418 , Reply# 45   7/11/2010 at 08:20 (5,008 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Eugene, the high-temp option moves the set-point for the main wash to 120 degrees. The final rinse is 140 degrees, unless Sani-Rinse is selected.

Post# 448429 , Reply# 46   7/11/2010 at 10:08 (5,008 days old) by RE563 (Fort Worth, Texas)        

re563's profile picture
I have been using Great Value dishwasher detergent (Phosphate free) in my bosch with great results. I never rines, just scrape my dishes before going into the dishwasher. For the price I can't see me buying Cascade again, tho It has been my favorite for years, and years.

Post# 448435 , Reply# 47   7/11/2010 at 10:38 (5,008 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Same in Europe: the wash temps for the Energy Saving cycle (which has to remove spinach, milk, tea, ground meat and egg dried onto the dishes at 176°F) usually runs at 113 or 122°F. Bosch/Siemens (Europe) recently introduced their "Eco Pots&Pans" cycle that runs the main wash at 113°F. They say it's intended to be used with the newest generation of detergents from Somat or Finish that will clean / are activated even in 104°F water.

Am wondering where that Steam Sanitize option went. With the heating element almost touching the bottom of the tub, it would be easy to just fill some water in the sump and then start heating.

Thanks for running that super-heavy P&P, magic_clean. Was just looking at some Bosch/Siemens dishwasher (our Euro versions) and their 158°F Intensive cycle runs 2:20 hrs with sani rinse. I wonder what exactly causes that four hour cycle.

Alex


Post# 448547 , Reply# 48   7/11/2010 at 19:33 (5,008 days old) by magic clean ()        
Alex

about an hour and half was alotted to the main wash. The T-Z option added 20 minutes or so. That accounts for a long wash. Then the steam final rinse takes another 35-45 minutes. Plus you've got dry time.

We always use Smart wash with T-Z & heated dry. The machine gets everything clean & dry in 2 to 2.5 hours depending on the soil level and load size. Generally we run the machine in the evening and unload the next day. So the longer cycle times are of no consequence. Especially since the machine is very quiet. You really only hear it when it drains....the sink gurgles. Otherwise you forget the machine is on.

If we are pressed for time the 1 hour cycle does fine too. Just not as water efficient.


Post# 448597 , Reply# 49   7/11/2010 at 23:40 (5,008 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Alex

What versions of DW detergents from Somat and Finish are designed to clean at 104F or 113F?


Post# 448608 , Reply# 50   7/12/2010 at 00:58 (5,008 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
New line of Kenmore dishwashers!

peteski50's profile picture
I personallly would not want this dishwasher for 2 reasons. I want a 140 degree wash cycle and these long long cycles are idiotic. Also I dont care how the new detergents work I want to have control over the cycle selection. (Bring back the older designs)!
Peter


Post# 448626 , Reply# 51   7/12/2010 at 04:34 (5,008 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Leslie,

I see, thanks. I suppose these dishwashers would be a lot faster if they could have more powerful heating elements. Our sanitary rinse just takes 15 minutes.

Jerrod,

Somat 7 and Somat 9 have a "Low Temperature Activator" claim right on the front of the box. It says "Thanks to the low-temp activator you can clean your dishes at 40°C, which is gentle on your dishes and glasses whilst saving energy."

Bosch/Siemens "recommends" (= promotes) Finish All-in-1 and Quantum.


Post# 448640 , Reply# 52   7/12/2010 at 07:33 (5,007 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
i think that on these models you also need to use the high temp option with the chosen cycle.

Post# 448930 , Reply# 53   7/13/2010 at 13:10 (5,006 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Thanks Alex

I have not seen SOMAT 7 or 9 available for the USA, but I do use Finish All-in 1 and Quantum. Do these detergents in the EU contain phosphates?

Post# 449067 , Reply# 54   7/14/2010 at 01:56 (5,006 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
The main ingredient in Somat is Pentasodium Triphosphote. Can't find the ingredients for Finish now but I think it has phosphates, too.

Post# 449317 , Reply# 55   7/14/2010 at 22:27 (5,005 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I checked a box of Finish all in 1 non phosphate tabs and it recommends a temperature of 125F to 140F so I guess it is not intended to be used at 104F or 113F. I used it today to clean a full load of dishes with stuck on dried potatoes, egg and greasy stuff - with excellent results - although I don't know what temperature was used in the wash. Some the newer Dw have longish programs so perhaps that is going to be required if you use a temp of 104F and non phosphate detergent.

Post# 449391 , Reply# 56   7/15/2010 at 06:48 (5,005 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Just checked all the boxes of dishwasher detergent in the local super market and they all have ">30% phosphates" - except for Ecover.

Post# 449981 , Reply# 57   7/17/2010 at 11:25 (5,002 days old) by 1972lkdishwash ()        
My 2010 Ultra Wash Ken. Dishwasher, NEW

OMG! I hope that it is built by Whirlpool, has a big wash impellar, on bottom,#1774, model to be built in, in place. For my Mother's kitchen, hope this one has a filter and cleans very well. She plans on loading it from the breakfast t, direct, and just scrape off, maybe not so much pre-scraping. After reading all of these, and the TOL Elite Kenmores,@$1700.00, glad we spent $750.00 and thought we had a good Cleaner, HOPE SO....WORRIED ABOUT THIS PURCHASE and I took out the 5 year warranty with it. My Mother is 93 and has Help, but wanted one that was Easy to USE, and load, touch cycle buttons on front. I Read that it was very efficient for Cleaning and made by Whirlpool....HELP..!!!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 1972lkdishwash's LINK


Post# 450122 , Reply# 58   7/17/2010 at 21:09 (5,002 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Calm down Harold!! It's a whirlpool produced product. And it has the OLD (ha ha) UntraWash system (like my 3 year old Kenmore Elite) that has a soft food disposer.

Post# 451183 , Reply# 59   7/22/2010 at 18:57 (4,997 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

laundromat's profile picture
The Frigidaire Imperial and Custom Imperial as well as the Montgomery Ward dishwashers from the late 60'6 through to 1978 prior to the WCI tyakeover had the original smaller spray arm on the main one. The GE dishwashers had a seperate arm just beneath the silverware basket.Same idea just a different location.I had both the Frigidaire Custom Imperial and the Montgomery Ward Signature top of the line models and they worked great but had a lot of issues. both units were convertible and I actualy built in the MW model.They both would get so hot and cause the wooden chopping block top to warp.The doors were real flimsy and would also get out of line and need to be either adjusted or replaced. The repairmen hated me!I used the Frigidaire for two years until it got infested with cockroaches that nested in the insolation.The MW was left at the house I rented real cheap in Fells Point,Baltimore,MD. for 5 years. There, I also had a Custom Imperial Jet Action 1-18 washer and gas dryer in Harvest gold and an old Amana bottom freezer refrigerator.The gas stove was a neat O'Keefe and Merrit that had the burners straight across and two huge ovens!That house was caticornerd to "Devine's" thrift store named "Pink Flamingos" where I visited daily and went thrifting with "Devine" hundreds of times.We'd hit the ally ways on Friday night around midnight with flashlights and grab whataever we thought was of any value.One night, he found a pair of mink stoles and a full length chincilla coat!!! Realy miss going out with "her".


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