Can a KitchenAid (KDI16) be saved? Anyone?


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Thread Number: 30564
Can a KitchenAid (KDI16) be saved? Anyone?

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Post# 462258 9/8/2010 at 21:08 (4,971 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Today I received a call from my sister who has a KDI16 KitchenAid dishwasher from 1968 (we even have the manuals, if anyone is interested in them too). Even though it is still washing for 42 years the machine now has a leak. I went over and looked over all the tubing and it is intact. I was actually hoping it was just a hose but no, the leak seems to be from a pump seal? It is leaking a spray from the motor fan and water coming from inbetween the motor and the tub. I don't know how to repair this problem. So I ask the following: 1. Would anyone like this dishwasher? I might be able to keep it some time. If you do, its free! 2. Is it possible this dishwasher can still be repaired? I know if she calls Sears they will tell her to replace it. Would an independent repair person know how? How do you all find independent repairmen (besides the Yellow Pages) Are there still parts out there? 3. I might give it to a Habitat for Humanity store, but again, would they want an appliance that leaks? If anyone here wants parts, I might be able to part it out too. 4. She wants to shop for a new dishwasher this weekend. I told her only Miele is equal to her KA but she wants to get a new KitchenAid. What are the current models like? I know it is not as heavy duty as this one. 5. I talked to her about locating the KA in the basement where a leak won't matter and using it for extra dishes but she does not like the idea. If that were possible, would it be safe to run with a leak, until it finally dies? Also, she may replace a GE over and under range from 1979 because it does not self clean anymore. Anyone interested?

Post# 462271 , Reply# 1 9/8/2010 at 21:42 (4,971 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes Is it possible this dishwasher can still be repaired? Yep! I'm willing to bet the leak is from the motor shaft seal. It's common for machines that have seen hard use, or have sat unused for long periods of time (rubber seals dry out and crack). You have 2 choices for the seal and impeller kit. A genuine Hobart kit (I believe the 00-435102 seal and impeller kit works for 16 series machine....stevet will slap me if I'm wrong) or a Whirlpool kit. The Hobart kit is the better of the 2 kits, but it doesn't come with installation instructions. The Whirlpool seal kit comes with instructions, but RCD had trouble with the new WP shaft seal, sealing, when he installed it by following the WP instructions for my KDS-19. He tore back into the motor and re-installed the kit in the way that made logical sense to him (gotta love being experienced) and it has been leak free ever since. If that were possible, would it be safe to run with a leak, until it finally dies? It should be ok to run the machine with a leak, but it will QUICKLY tear up the ball bearings in the motor. I'd let it die with a little more dignity, myself (possibly part it out?). But that's just me.

Post# 462282 , Reply# 2 9/8/2010 at 22:15 (4,971 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *i know parts are still available at hobart* because i recently bought a few pump seals from the local cinti office. they will fit the 15-17 pumps because i have used them on all 3 models. i would love to have it but i have (3) 16 models already and no more room at all!!! hopefully someone will save it! i do have the instruction sheet for installing that seal if anyone is ever interested, just e mail me.

Post# 462302 , Reply# 3 9/8/2010 at 23:20 (4,971 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Do you happen to have the part number for the Whirlpool kit? It might be possible to get that from Sears Parts Direct.

Post# 462311 , Reply# 4 9/8/2010 at 23:58 (4,971 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Oh, just tried Sears parts direct - they only go back to 21 series machines. By the way, what is the current KitchenAid number? They must be up to 26-27 by now.

Post# 462316 , Reply# 5 9/9/2010 at 00:24 (4,971 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes I did some digging in the archives and found that the Hobart part# I listed for the seal and impeller kit is in reference to 18/19/20 series machines only, so ignore my post.

Post# 462342 , Reply# 6 9/9/2010 at 07:42 (4,971 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *KDI-16 SEAL* Call Larry @ Modern Parts in Ohio 216-661-6966. Any Independent repair thats been around for more than 20 years will know how to work on this, but be sure to ask them and tell tell them you have a KD16 with a shaft seal leak and see if they are interested in working on it. On a new machine a WP OR KA is far better than a Meile but get one with a disposer rather than a filter.

Post# 462449 , Reply# 7 9/9/2010 at 16:57 (4,970 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *here is your part number for KD 15-16 and 17 models* The Hobart part number for the shaft seal(which includes the drain impeller) is 117011 and it lists for $30.70 My office has 5 in stock and many other offices stock it as well and the main distribution center has well over 100 in stock so you can order as many as you want and be assured that they will be available. You can purchase it at you local Hobart office. Just give them that part number and how many you want. Don't get in to any discussion with them about it going in to a Kitchenaid Dishwasher. They may not even know it was part of Hobart at one time! If you decide to tackle it on your own, I will send you the instructions for the install. It requires shimming the impellers so that you maintian a specific clearance between the pump impeller and the wash arm support. There was(and I still have one) a "touch/clear" gauge that makes it as easy as pie to get the correct spacing with the motor in or out of the dishwasher. Try not to run it with the leak as you WILL probably ruin the motor bearings on it and trying to remove the fan from the shaft may result in ruining that as well and that is not available anywhere! If you mess up big time, you will probably have to go with a whole new motor from WP if still available or one from Hobart which costs maybe 2x or more than WP. Holler at me if you have any questions

Post# 462466 , Reply# 8 9/9/2010 at 18:06 (4,970 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Thanks everyone so far...* We are not going to run it anymore and try to save the motor. Steve T I may be in touch with you. My brother also says we can store the KitchenAid at his house so I will do all I can to save it. Now just have to tell my brother in law not to have sears come and take it away. Oh, but there are 3 layers of flooring making about an inch difference, making it almost impossible to get the old machine out (or a new one in). Oh, well, she wants new flooring anyway. I am doing everything I can to keep it out of the landfill. My brother Sam says throwing this appliance away is like throwing away a Gibson Les Paul electric guitar. Agree?

Post# 462473 , Reply# 9 9/9/2010 at 18:52 (4,970 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes I don't know from guitars but it sounds like Sam has the right idea. If you like it, save it!

Post# 462474 , Reply# 10 9/9/2010 at 18:56 (4,970 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Floored for sure!* I won't ask you or anyone else here or in this world, why they simply floor right up to a dishwasher and not under it as well? You can try to loosen it by disconnecting the brackets that hold it to the counter and then try turning the leveling legs all the way up in to the frame. You may get just enough clearance to slide it out. Or enough to get the front out by tilting it back when the back feet are up too. Then you may be able to thread the front feet totally out and then work the back ones out too. Worst case, if you can. Hacksaw them out and then install new ones if you need to. Once you gt the machine out, you can always reinstall it without legs and just shim the frame up to the required height and fore-go the new floor!

Post# 462613 , Reply# 11 9/10/2010 at 16:27 (4,969 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *in see that the seal kit* (1021760 part no.) is in stock at repair clinic .com it is 48.00 bucks basically. they are usually pretty good at having older parts, i have used them many times. just punch in kds-16 and it will be there!

Post# 462625 , Reply# 12 9/10/2010 at 17:58 (4,969 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Thanks Rollermatic, I will go and take a look* Stevet: I think it is customary for the appliances like a built in dishwasher to be on the plywood or wood flooring with 1 layer of subflooring and then flooring. This way the flooring can be replaced without having to disturb the cabinets. The screw legs have enough clearance for 1 layer but not enough for the 3 layers they have. Turns out my brother in law thought it was cheaper to just have flooring laid over the existing flooring, thinking nothing would ever happen to the dishwasher (it turns out no one in that side of the family is a "plan ahead" person). The only way I can think of to get the appliance out is to lift up the countertop and since it had to custom made to their layout, it was expensive I am don't really want to take the risk of cracking it. We might get the installer to take it out, put a new one in, and then save the KD 16. Thanks for all the help I will let you know and see if I can get some pictures.

Post# 462644 , Reply# 13 9/10/2010 at 19:34 (4,969 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes I have just the opposite issue at my house. My dad built new cabinets and counters about an inch higher than is standard. He did that in order to create a garage for a 1970-ish Wards Signature (aka Flimsidaire) BOL portable top-loading dishwasher adjacent to the sink. When that machine was replaced in the mid 70's by a built-in D&M Kenmore, and again later with a '90 Maytag JetClean, 2x4 skids were required so that there wouldn't be a big gap between the the machine and the counter top. Skids will be required until that whole section gets blown up in an eventual remodel. Currently my always entertaining 1985 Thermador THD3600 steam model is resting on them. For the first half of the 1970's, we had a battle going between two Wards Signature machines. With the kitchen on one side of the family room and laundry area on the other, watching TV was an exercise in futility with either the clothes washer or dishwasher doing its best to drown out the TV audio. As it happened, both machines got replaced by Kenmores, which I facilitated, and even with both of them running simultaneously, TV viewing was no longer disrupted. So much more civilized than the Wards junk.

Post# 462671 , Reply# 14 9/10/2010 at 22:33 (4,969 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *cut and paste!* Bob, would you be able to get the unit out by cutting the legs off and then backing the remaining legs out from the top side of the frame? I think I suggested that already but wanted to remind you. This happened to an uncle of mine when my aunt wanted to get rid of a builder's model GE dishwasher and they had tiled the floor up to the machine. He wound up cutting the counter from backsplash to front just to get the machine out.He also had the same problem when he wound up redoing the kitchen and had to dig the lower cabinets out of the tiling job too. It wound up costing them additional money to remove all the tiling and replacing it with new since the ceramic pattern was no longer available. He DID tile from wall to wall prior to setting the new cabinets in place including under the dishwasher. Your best bet may be to loosen the screws holding the counter to the base cabinets and maybe lifting it enough to get the machine out. Also, if there is no clearance to get the 16 out, then you may not be able even install something new either. If the seal is leaking and the machine won't come out, you will have to do it all from the tank side which is fine. The motor does not have to be removed to do that. Since you don't have the room to pull the machine out, I doubt you would even be able to drop the motor and pull it out from the front either. Also, you do not risk ruining the gaskets either. If you find that you have to do all this work to get the machine out, I would cave and get it out and install a new machine in its place and relegate the 16 to the garage or basement after the seal is fixed. You can always use it as a spare to take care of the overflow dishes or use it to clean the pots and pans. And one last thing..Why would you consider buying a seal assembly for 48 dollars when you can get it for less from Hobart? Just was wondering if they had something more to offer! BTW, if you do tackle this deal on your own, I will gladly lend you the "touch/Clear" gauge. I used it only once in the past 6 years on a Hobart WM machine that was nearly 40 years old! Haven't used it since!

Post# 463047 , Reply# 15 9/12/2010 at 15:55 (4,967 days old) by retropia ()
Checkrate/Likes When we did the kitchen remodel in 1998, we had the cabinets installed directly on the plywood subfloor, but had the finish flooring (laminate) installed underneath the refrigerator, dishwasher, and slide-in range. It's made it so much easier to move the refrigerator in and out for cleaning underneath, and made it easy getting the old dishwasher out and the new one in.

Post# 463095 , Reply# 16 9/12/2010 at 18:54 (4,967 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes So far it looks like I will be getting the 16 at the house where I live. My BIL has a Honda element and he has agreed to drive the dishwasher there if I help him lift it in and out. He wants it out by this coming Wednesday. He and my sister just bought a new range (Whirlpool) and dishwasher (Maytag, is it same as WP now?) because the range and DW are next to each other and they have been told that if the range comes out the DW can too. Someone in the neighborhood wants the range and they are getting it. I took pictures and will soon post them and let you all know of this "soap opera" Steve, Sam found the seal from an appliance web site, it is just that I am not familiar with a "Hobart office' but I will look into it. Do I just tell them the number and pay and I can get the parts? It is taking a lot of family negotiation to save the appliances we like doesn't it?

Post# 463099 , Reply# 17 9/12/2010 at 19:26 (4,967 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *good luck with that kd-16* you know the 15-17 series are my favorite kitchenaids. i have a couple 15's 3-16 models and a bunch of 17's. that seal is pretty easy to replace. you can still get a motor too if you ever need it, i just bought one last year from a local appliance repair place here in cincinnati. put it on one of my 17's. e bay has the top of the pump housing (the wash arm support) for about 15 bucks apeice. i have bought about 4 of these from this guy. i saw them the other day still listed. might grab a couple more. with a little care and tune up you can keep that kitchenaid running for another 20 years! if you have any questions just e mail me! good luck and enjoy it! pete

Post# 463105 , Reply# 18 9/12/2010 at 19:35 (4,967 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Hobart Office* Here is the link to all the offices that service the state of PA. just call the local office closest to you and ask if they have the part. If they don't, there are about 150 of the seals in stock in the Piqua distribution center. They can order you however many you want. Just give them the part number and you will be set. Do you want me to email you the pages from the service manual? It would help I am sure to have them Steve CLICK HERE TO GO TO stevet's LINK

Post# 463115 , Reply# 19 9/12/2010 at 20:11 (4,967 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Steve thanks for the Hobart web site!* I might even apply for a job with them! Becky, my sister, found out where the office in Greensburg is so we will probably go there. Rollermatic, what do you do with all your KitchenAids? Do people say you have too many dishwashers? BTW, my BIL worries that Becky is getting more handy and is starting to get a "Tool belt".

Post# 463142 , Reply# 20 9/12/2010 at 23:31 (4,967 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes *What's a "BIL"?* Hmm, can't figure that one out

Post# 463147 , Reply# 21 9/12/2010 at 23:45 (4,967 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Brother In Law. He is an athletic Italian who I am not supposed to mention on the internet, especially on a forum like this one but he wants the 16 out of the house as soon as possible. Oh, and he doesn't see why anyone wants a 42 year old dishwasher. BTW, they paid 800 for a Maytag dishwasher - think it will last?

Post# 463168 , Reply# 22 9/13/2010 at 05:27 (4,967 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *They will teach you well!* Bob, Hobart is always looking for a few good men and women! If you feel so inclined, do fill out an application. I can't say if there are any openings per se in your area but if you have an electro-mechanical background and a good understanding of which end of a wrench is the business end, you should do it. You never know what may happen!

Post# 463273 , Reply# 23 9/13/2010 at 20:35 (4,966 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *do people say i have too many kitchenaids?* i don't tell everyone that i collect appliances, most people would not "get it" so i just skip it. my friends who i do tell think i am nuts ofcourse! but that's ok. i'm not one to be easily swayed by anyone elses opinion, especially when it comes to any of my hobbies!. the main question they ask is where i keep them all. i tell them i have a room in my house i keep them all in which is a partial truth. i also have 7 of the kitchenaids in the kitchen area and 8 washers in my living room area. i enjoy being around them! plus i am still working on the rollermatics, 3 are done, 3 more to restore. i probably do have too many dishwashers but when i started here 2 years ago my goal was to collect at least one of every model kitchenaid made up thru the 23 series. at this point i still need a 10, 11, 20, and 22. plus i really love the old d&m machines, g.e. mobile maids, and just about any other brand made in the 50's or 60's. so i spent most of 2008 and all of 2009 scouring e bay and craigs list and grabbing them all up like a hungry kid! but if i never get those remaining kitchenaids it's ok, i've had my fun! i'm not actively looking for them anymore. once i discovered how much i love the frigidaire rollermatics, and love working on them my dishwasher cravings really tapered off! if they come my way fine, if not, oh well! it's a great hobby but it doesn't matter if we have 2 or 42, it's the enjoyment that these old vintage classic machines bring to us that is important i think! at first i thought the more i got the better collector i was, now looking at it i realize it's not a race! i'm not in competition with anyone! and i'm going to thin out my stash a bit here in the next year. thanks for asking! good luck with your kitchenaid!

Post# 463279 , Reply# 24 9/13/2010 at 21:21 (4,966 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Rollermatic, Have any of your machines been heavily used? I was having second thoughts because I notice Robert gets his dishwashers from little old ladies at estate sales. Aunt Mac had this dishwasher for 20 years and she was only one person but my sister had it the next 22 and they used it hard, sometimes twice a day. I'm worried that the other parts are all worn out. The tub and racks, however, do not look worn at all. They look a lot better than the Maytag we have that only 6 years old. Wouldn't it be something if the new Maytag they spent 800 dollars on had an early demise and they wanted the KA 16 back? You think that could happen? By the way, what number are they up to now? Would a current KitchenAid be like KD127?

Post# 463349 , Reply# 25 9/14/2010 at 09:39 (4,966 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Sorry, the news may not be good...* It turns out there may be no way to get this machine to my house in time and I also found out that there is a burning smell from the blower and the detergent dispenser never worked. My sister really used the dishwasher heavily and they want it out tomorrow. My BIL and my brother are both coming down with something and they cannot help me haul it. So I think I am going to raid it for parts. I know I can get the racks, strainer, upper pump, buttons, light, timer, knob, and maybe the latch assembly? Anybody want these? Is there anything else I should try to get? Since you have all been of help, I'm willing to give the parts away for shipping. Thank you all. Bob. P.S. Pictures are coming as soon as a get a cable for my camera.

Post# 463409 , Reply# 26 9/14/2010 at 14:42 (4,965 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *gee that's too bad* but maybe another kitchenaid will come along you can get as a whole machine. i personally don't need any parts, i have tons now, but i'm sure someone here will want something. that timer, motor, and pump assembly would be the choice selection in my book! you ask about my machines, most are in very good shape, the little old lady type as you say. but a couple of the 17 models are rough, racks not that great and some sump rust. but all are in operating condition. if the sump is rusty i give it about 3 coats of rusty metal primer and then 3 coats of rustoleum before i put the pump and motor back in. as far as model numbers go, i stopped collecting at the 23 series and even that one is not interesting to me in the least. i think the 23 was the last model before whirlpool completely took over, i may be wrong here. the kitchenaid historians on the site will probably know that one! i don't have much interest in them after they changed the pump and went with a reversing motor on the 21 series. and even the 18-20 are not one's i really care for. i like the old one's i remember as a kid, one spray arm at the bottom! 15-17 are my favs!

Post# 463468 , Reply# 27 9/14/2010 at 19:50 (4,965 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *News Flash!* Just as I was raiding the 16 for parts, somehow I figured out how to get it out of there and my BIL came with the Element and he said we might as well get it to your house. So now I have it after all! I find it actually is quite dirty and it may be pretty bad off but I think if I fix the leak it mostly is just a lot of cleaning. I could not get the timer off, so good thing he came. But now that I started taking it apart, now I have to screw it all together again! Fortunately, I have the screws and it seems that Hobart used actual screws instead of clips and I really didn't notice much corrosion. Actually its better that he came today. I had a chance to clean the dishwasher space. It was disgusting, and I think the installers would have just installed the new one without cleaning it up.

Post# 463478 , Reply# 28 9/14/2010 at 20:33 (4,965 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *need parts breakdowns?* Bob, if you need the parts breakdown for that machine, I still have a copy I can scan and send to you. Let me know. I think you will find that some cleaning up will do the machine justice. If you decide to use it, make sure that you wrap the sides, top and back of tank with some insulation. Go with as thick a blanket as you can use and still fit in into the space under your counter. And even wrap it around the bottom if you can. Don't forget to pack the door with insulation too, avoiding the detergent dispenser so it can move freely. Use unfaced insulation in the door. And consider gluing a nice 4 inch thick piece on the back side of the lower panel and maybe even the black kick panel. You can also lay some down on the floor under the machine and all this will result in a much quiter machine and one that retains its heat better too.

Post# 463490 , Reply# 29 9/14/2010 at 21:44 (4,965 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Well, I am going to work on putting the parts back tomorrow before I forget. To be truthful, KA was never as loud, even toward the end, as the dying Maytag we have now and the cheap Hotpoint that roars I had in my apartment. You know when its running, but it you could have a conversation. There is some dense fiber insulation on there already. I also wonder if before I use something like CLR on the tub inside I should probably order the kit and repair the leak first, shouldn't I? Have you come across many Hobart KitchenAids that were "too far gone"? It's possible this could be one of them. Then again, just about any other machine (Kenmore, GE) would probably be shot a long time ago.

Post# 463543 , Reply# 30 9/15/2010 at 08:35 (4,965 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *too far gone??* i doubt it. i have 23 kitchenaids at this present time and out of all of them only 2 have even needed a new pump seal when i got them. one was an 18 model, one a 19. all the early ones, the 12, 14, 15-17 series didn't even leak and still don't. sump rust can be a problem and i have had a couple that were starting to get to be a problem but again i cleaned it all out and coated them with rustoleum rusty metal primer followed by several coats of rustoleum paint and they are now as good as new. without looking at it i cannot say for sure but i would guess your 16 model is in fine shape overall. like steve said don't use it till you replace that seal or you will ruin the motor most probably. but even then motors are out there, used and new. pump gaskets are still available too, i bought 6 from larry in parma last year. he's at modern parts house. he has those seals as well.

Post# 463577 , Reply# 31 9/15/2010 at 13:07 (4,964 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *I promise, pictures are coming!* The motor seems to be fine. Should it be oiled somewhere? I felt better when I started to clean some of the parts up. There seems to not be any sump rust but a lot of mineral build up. Sam recommended CLR to remove it. There was also a LOT of crap in there, and that might have been why she was complaining of burning odors. The strainer at the bottom and the door handle were particularly cruddy. What I ended up doing was filling a pot up with a solution of new Cascade and water and heating it up on the stove. The chrome is so bright it almost blinded me! Be careful when using new Cascade to clean things like that, it dried and caused almost chemical burns to my hands. It must have more lye than the phosphated detergents. Right now I am cleaning up the outside and when I get the seal from Hobart I thought I would work on the crud inside but I don't want to do that until sealed. The wheels on the racks are shot but I think I can steal wheels when our Maytag dies. Even though I pulled some wires I was able to put them back. It turns out Hobart neatly labels all the wires and terminals, I guess to make it easier to assemble? With some other brands, it was easy to get lost.

Post# 463643 , Reply# 32 9/15/2010 at 20:18 (4,964 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Little by Little* Bob, take the cleanup project in little steps. I would say that if there is little or no sump rust,especially around the motor and its mounting bolts, do not remove the motor at this time. Do try to get an extra set of gaskets for future use, though. You never know what you may encounter. If your water is naturally soft or mechanically softened and you plan on using this machine as a daily driver, I would not recommend using any chemicals at all in it. The soft water will eventually and rather quickly with daily use wash away the lime buildup and leave a spotless interior. Take it from someone who sees this everyday on commercial machines as well as thru personal experience. IF the blower/heater assembly is making a burning smell, it may have a bad blower motor. Or it was simply the buildup of dust on the heater element that burned off when you turned it on. It should all go away assuming the blower itself is good. I have plenty of blower assemblies so if you need one, let me know. That is one thing I always would take off a condemned machine. I am glad you were able to rewire the machine and yes, the wire markings sure make it easier to do. Hope you will add some picture soon so we can see what youa re dealing with and the progress you make.

Post# 463672 , Reply# 33 9/16/2010 at 01:35 (4,964 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes Also, Steve, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Hobart motors can be oiled.

Post# 463687 , Reply# 34 9/16/2010 at 05:13 (4,964 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *No needto, most of the time!* No, sorry, all those motors came with permanently lubricated bearings. So there would not be any place to add oil or grease to them. They will fail if enough water gets in to them so if the seal fails, it would be wise to replace it as soon as possible. The bearings can be replaced, but the problem with the 15 and up machines was getting the cooling fan off without breaking it. They are not available so if you break it, the motor is garbage. The top bearing goes on over the top of the motor shaft so you cannot get it off if the fan is stuck.

Post# 463734 , Reply# 35 9/16/2010 at 12:45 (4,964 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes Thanks Steve. The KDS 20 I have stored in my garage has a fairly noisy motor. Since the bearings are permanently lubed, I don't think it stands much chance of ever making it into my kitchen. Believe it or not, the Thermador makes less noise.

Post# 463922 , Reply# 36 9/17/2010 at 17:38 (4,962 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Thinking and thinking!* Ralph, I have been thinking about your last statement and I think you might want to check your motor on the KDS20.. The later motors started coming with plastic cooling fans which were held in by a retaining clip. They had a tendency to break and get noisy especially at startup when the highest torque of the motor occurs. Then they would literally spin on the shaft and then catch up to the motor and quiet down a bit. If you have one of these types, and the fan is intact, they come off rather easily and you can then install new bearings with little trouble, They are available at any place that sells bearings. The bearing numbers are stamped right on the bearings so you can easily identify them. If you need the numbers before hand let me know and I will get the info for you. I would go with the ones that have the rubber type seals and not the metal seal which could eventually allow water to get in again. So given the base bearing number, the transmission shop can cross reference it and get you one of better quality.

Post# 464517 , Reply# 37 9/21/2010 at 00:12 (4,959 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Now the first pictures!* Here is what the dishwasher looked like before, in my Aunt Mac's kitchen

Post# 464518 , Reply# 38 9/21/2010 at 00:15 (4,959 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Here's another, with their boxer dog.* She also had this GE range, which now has a new home.

Post# 464519 , Reply# 39 9/21/2010 at 00:16 (4,959 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *The before "money shot"* Its kind of grimy but not that bad for 42 years.

Post# 464521 , Reply# 40 9/21/2010 at 00:28 (4,959 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Will I took all the chrome parts off,...* And soaked them in a solution of Cascade and cooked it on the range; there was LOTS of crud. Used a lot of Windex and Pledge on the console. It is actually chrome underneath the brown paint! Now everything is so shiny that, even though this photo was taken in the evening it's almost blinding! I noticed very little rust on the internal this machine and most of it was at the bottom toward the floor. The custom panel kit was a different matter - the frame fell apart and it is rusty and the wood is starting to rot so looks like I will paint the panels. More about them later. But it turns out there was crud everywhere. Maybe all it needed was a good clean up?

Post# 464522 , Reply# 41 9/21/2010 at 00:36 (4,959 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Now for the parts layout.....* I unscrewed all I could to access the shaft seal and, uh, oh, oh, the motor fell out. Steve, now I know what you mean about the metal fan on top, but I think the fan kind of saved the motor from the leak. The shaft turns freely but there is a little rust on it. Now there appears to be a pump housing, a rubber impeller, and the a lower housing. The shaft seal which I ordered from the Pittsburgh Hobart office I believe is the smaller round piece right below here. Sam is soaking all this in like a CLR solution he used at his work.

Post# 464524 , Reply# 42 9/21/2010 at 00:52 (4,959 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Parts are on order.* Reason I say parts is that "Barbara" the nice Hobart lady asked me how many I needed so I ordered 2, maybe to sell to one of us or on ebay. I guess some businesses have multiple machines? Anyway, not wanting to confuse anyone there about a KA machine I made up a story that I was a manager at a Cinnabon I used to work at that had a Hobart machine and I wsa trying to impress my boss because I didn't know if they would sell to a "regular consumer". I guess that when you are preservationist like we are, it helps to have a vivid imagination. Barbara asked me where this store was because I guess Hobart is fussy about which office services which area. Anyway, I can pick them up at the counter when they come in and if anyone here needs one, you can have it for my cost + postage. Oh, and I am going to give them my resume too.

Post# 464685 , Reply# 43 9/21/2010 at 19:40 (4,958 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Parts is parts!* Okay Bob.. you went for the gusto! Now that you have the whole pump disassembled, you might as well clean it all up. It will go together better and look nicer too. The shaft seal is actually 2 pieces..the rubber drain impeller forms the rotating portion of it, therefore, the white ceramic piece on its underside and the stationary seal which is carbon and sits in the bottom of the pump housing that sits on top of the motor. When you reassemble it, install the stationary part carefully into the bottom housing using liquid dish washing soap as a lubricant. DO NOT USE SILICONE SEALANT OR ANY PETROLEUM BASED PRODUCTS. Use only finger pressure to seat it in to the housing. You will know when it has bottomed out and can check it by turning the housing over. There is a stop built into the housing. If you want, you can probably get the fan off with gentle coaxing but first thoroughly soak the shaft with PB Blaster and let it do its work. Then gently pry the fan off the shaft. Try some really fine steel wool on that rust mark with the PB Blaster on it and it should shine right up for you. If you get the fan off, there should be a small o ring left on the shaft which seals it. Either be really careful with it or get one from Barbara. The part number is 67500-30. The bearings for your motor are part number BB020-18 and they are both the same top and bottom. The industry standard for them is N.D.77503 She can also get you the bearings. If you send me your email, I will send you a pdf of the service manual which will outline all this stuff for you. Make sure that you clean out the holes for the motor mounting screws and lubricate the screws with some never seize which will pay off in the future. Let us know how it goes!

Post# 464731 , Reply# 44 9/21/2010 at 22:44 (4,958 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Does the fan need to come off at all? I was under the impression that we should not try to mess with it. The motor turns freely, so I think the bearings are fine. Might try to clean the outside of the motor.

Post# 464878 , Reply# 45 9/22/2010 at 16:59 (4,957 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Sounds cool to me!* If the bearings sound good, then perhaps you may want to leave it alone. If the fan does come off easily, why not clean up the shaft and put it back so it is easy in the future to remove if needed. Can't wait till you get it going again. Did you mention that you need rollers for the racks? I have loads of them you can have for the cost of postage!

Post# 464889 , Reply# 46 9/22/2010 at 18:15 (4,957 days old) by rollermatic (cincinnati)
Checkrate/Likes *since the whole pump assembly* is out, how does the tub sump area look? any rust around the holes that the lower pump bolts thru? some of mine have been fine, others have needed work. a couple of mine were badly rusted around these holes. on the one's that needed it i cleaned it up getting rid of the rust and painted the outer surafce of the tub sump area with rustoleum rusty metal primer, followed by rustoleum spray paint, about 3 coats each. hopefully yours is fine. if you need a new gasket for the lower pump larry in parma had them last year, i bought about half dozen and he had more. i think you can get them at parts select or repair clinic .com on the web too. hobart has them too i think, not sure. i seem to remember them there last year when i bought some stuff from hobart cinti. keep at it! you will feel so good when it is all restored and running!

Post# 464890 , Reply# 47 9/22/2010 at 18:22 (4,957 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *For the record...* The gaskets for the 15's would be available in limited numbers but they never carried the 16/17 gaskets as they were different from the commercial line. The commercial WM series did not have the constant rinse and therefore only had the circular gaskets not the one with the cut out for the upper spray supply.

Post# 464894 , Reply# 48 9/22/2010 at 18:49 (4,957 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)
Checkrate/Likes Steve, thanks for the advice above about my KDS-20. I think the machine will end up in the hands of Nate or Dan, so they can opt to do the bearing work if they choose. I'm going to wait for a KDS-21 to come along, but will remain custodian of the KDS-20 until either party decides to take it off my hands. Ralph

Post# 464901 , Reply# 49 9/22/2010 at 20:00 (4,957 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Too bad you are so far away* I would be willing to part with our KDS21M since my wife does nothing but complain about it. She just loved the 18 and wants it back in the kitchen. Will have to do that one of these days. It is pimped out with the single lower arm like the current Hobart undercounter machines and man, does it toss dishes around! Got to post the pics too, one of these days Here is one from when I turned To0ploader55's KDS20 back into my KDS18. It is spotless inside . That was just traveling dirt!

Post# 466913 , Reply# 50 10/2/2010 at 13:34 (4,947 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Well I have kept at it, I have questions, and pictures are c* I did pick up the seal assembly from Hobart and started to install it. Pictures are coming, but try to use your imagination for now as I have a question: There are 2 seals in the kit, a drain impeller, and an O ring that goes on top of the rubber impeller. The thinner of the two seals appears to go in the bottom of the pump housing and the larger appears to fit at the bottom of the impeller. The 2 metal surfaces face and rub each other, creating the seal. Is this correct? Reason I ask is that I notice the rubber impeller, it will be very difficult to get it onto the shaft of the motor, it only just goes on the top. Is it supposed to be this stubborn? I am afraid if I pounded it on there, if I did not do the seals right, I will never get this off. Also, the old impeller simply lifted off but I think it was just so worn I don't know how it ever turned. I did use the dishwashing liquid as a lube (Dawn with Olay beauty!). After this it is just a matter of screwing everything back together. Oh and a tip: If you want the black plastic parts to look new, spray them with a lot of Pledge. My brother told me about Pledge because they used it for everything when he was in the Air Force. I did not know Pledge was used so much in the military. Anyone here in the service and use Pledge?

Post# 466925 , Reply# 51 10/2/2010 at 15:27 (4,947 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Check your email* Bob, I just sent you some instructions and pictures which should help you install the seal kit. Let me know if you need anything else.

Post# 466940 , Reply# 52 10/2/2010 at 17:02 (4,947 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Thanks, steve* It looks like I may have it in right with the 2 metal surfaces rubbing. Should the impeller be so stubborn and tight against the shaft? I am reluctant to pound on it, knowing I may never get it off again. But I'll try the soap again. Once I finish this critical part I can get the motor back in the tub - As you probably know, the motor is Very Heavy. And get the machine - Who I call Kenni - into the game room where I plan to set up a counter and sink for when we have functions. I can assemble the rest then.

Post# 466967 , Reply# 53 10/2/2010 at 21:03 (4,947 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *make life easy* The impeller is probably tight on the shaft due to the rust and corrosion seen in the picture above. If you get the rust off it should slide right down. That' is where that little o ring comes in and seals the shaft and impeller to prevent water from dripping down the shaft. Is the machine installed in the counter yet? If not then you can install it thru the bottom like you took it out, but I have a trick for you to make it easy.. Here goes: Get some 1/4-20 bolts about 1-1/2 to 2 inches long, cut off the heads and use them as pilot bolts for the motor so that you can lay the motor on the floor under the machine with the undertank gasket in place(don't use any sealer) and then use the threaded bolts minus the heads as pilot bolts to line the motor up and to pull the motor into position while you thread in the original bolts in the other holes. Then remove the pilot screws and insert the correct ones and finish putting all the parts back together. You can also put in 3 or 4 pilot bolts and line it up under the machine and lift it with a wedge of wood or other implement. I always used the pilots from the top down and then lifted the motor with one hand under it while kind of lifting up and laying on the floor at the same time. A little weird but works for me.Sure beats holding it up with your hand and trying to get it placed just right. if you go the top down road, you can get yourself some longer 1/4-20 bolts and keep the heads on them..makes gripping easier on your fingers! Make sure that you put some lubricant on all the screws so that they can be removed more easily in the future. You have my number if you need to call. Steve Don't forget to shim the impellers as per the service manual specs. If you don't wash pressure will not be what it should be.

Post# 467037 , Reply# 54 10/3/2010 at 09:35 (4,947 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)
Checkrate/Likes *Stevet* Can you CC me on that manual scan? I just salvadged a KDS-16 too and am going to go in sometime. But its in great shape now so its going to get pimped out, I am very fascinated with your commercial arm conversion!!! jon

Post# 467070 , Reply# 55 10/3/2010 at 11:49 (4,947 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *On the way!* Jon, I am sending you what I sent to Bob yesterday. If you need anything else, let me know Steve

Post# 468353 , Reply# 56 10/10/2010 at 13:37 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *But there's more!* Here are the parts I bought from Hobart. No, they don't know its going into a KitchenAid, I had to make up a story about a donut shoppe I used to work. Looks like even Hobart has gone to Mexico.

Post# 468354 , Reply# 57 10/10/2010 at 13:41 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Here's the parts as I understand them. I used dishwashing soap to lubricate - Actually Dawn with Olay Beauty, if anything would lubricate well, that would. Actually, there is a little confusion here. The metal ring on the left actually goes into the "turbine" toward the right. The fact they put it in rubber confused me for a while but that must have been only to protect it. The O ring later goes on top of the turbine.

Post# 468355 , Reply# 58 10/10/2010 at 13:43 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *It lets you know it is made in the USA!* It seems like they take every opportunity to tell you - KitchenAid! Made in Troy, Ohio! (I think it might be near Dayton?)

Post# 468356 , Reply# 59 10/10/2010 at 13:44 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
*This post has been removed by the member who posted it.*

Post# 468359 , Reply# 60 10/10/2010 at 13:47 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Here is the lower pump housing that accommodates the seal. Looks like there was a bite taken out of fan, but I think it will be OK. Just shows this machine - Who I now name Kaddi (with an I for imperial) had a hard life.

Post# 468363 , Reply# 61 10/10/2010 at 13:50 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *I figured it out!* Finally! The metal ring fits into the rubber turbine to create the seal. Using the Dawn with Olay as a lube (and I mean this to be G Rated), it slips in perfectly. Toward the left is the old impeller. It lifted right out. I don't know how it ever turned at all.

Post# 468364 , Reply# 62 10/10/2010 at 13:51 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Oh no! I can't believe that the Nikon camera I like so much shows Every Wrinkle of my fingers!

Post# 468365 , Reply# 63 10/10/2010 at 13:53 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes The lower seal fits right into the housing, again using Dawn with Olay. There is enough clearance I don't think the "bite" will be an issue.

Post# 468366 , Reply# 64 10/10/2010 at 13:57 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes The lower stationary seal in place in the housing. It's not grease, it's only the best - Dawn with Olay!

Post# 468367 , Reply# 65 10/10/2010 at 14:00 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Its a bit hard to see with all the black....* But I had some difficulty getting the impeller on the shaft. Then I remembered a tip that I saw I think on Deadliest Catch. Have to go to work now so stay tuned, I'll tell you how it turns out (I do get it installed, so I won't keep all of you in suspense)

Post# 468421 , Reply# 66 10/10/2010 at 20:08 (4,939 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Be careful...Hold your horses!* Bob, that chunk out of the fan is going to give you a problem. Before you install the motor back in to the machine, set it up and do a water test on the table by pouring water into the housing. There are shims that sit on top of the fan to prevent the drain impeller from bottoming out and scraping the housing. The fan probably deteriorated because the seal leaked a little bit until it corroded the fan enough for a piece to break off. I just looked around to see if I had one but to no avail. You may have to beg for one here or try Hobart. The part number for the fan is 108642 and it takes one o-ring part number 67500-30(you may have to buy a whole bag of them as they are sold in min qtys of 5 or 10). There may be no fans around now since they buy the new style motors from Whirlpool which are made by Emerson but will come with a capacitor and seal kit as well. Also,it is less expensive to buy the motor thru a WP parts outlet than from Hobart. The markup is very high on them at Hobart. Hope this helps Steve

Post# 468436 , Reply# 67 10/10/2010 at 22:09 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Sorry, steve, but its a bit late...* But there is good news: The seal works and there is nary a leak! Now that I have the impeller on, there is no way I can get it off (what do you repair people do?). I used a tip I think I saw on Deadliest Catch: On on of their ships, they needed a part for a generator that they did not have and it was a long way to shore to get a new one. So the engineer machined a metal part on his lathe but it had to fit tightly to another machine. So he put this part in the kitchen oven and heated it up, expanding the part to fit on the shaft. What I did here was place the shaft of the motor upside down on a glass of ice water (I kept the motor itself dry). Then I placed the impeller in a cup of tea. It slipped on with some resistance just right. In fact, I don't see a leak at all, yay! But now bad news: I can't get the motor to go at all. It is not getting any electricity at all. This problem started when my brother Sam insisted that he unscrew the heating element and soak it in his solution from work. Now the element looks narrower and I wonder if that has something to do with no power. When you plug it in and turn it on the timer works but the light and nothing else does. We tried bypassing the element (turning it into an energy saver) and still no luck so we put the connection back on. Sam says he is determined to find this loose connection. After all, he has a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering BSEE! Also, we may be getting another KA. Sam has a girlfriend who wants a whole new kitchen and wants her 90s KA gone because "it is not sleek". Their relationship is on and off though, so we may or may not get it, because he makes him do a lot of work at her house, making him her slave. I know, this thread is turning into a soap opera, isn't it? Oh, and if all is lost (I don't think it is)I will give away parts. Steve, I wanted to thank you for all your help, its been quite a learning experience. Bob.

Post# 468442 , Reply# 68 10/10/2010 at 22:26 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Some of you asked about rust and I am glad to tell you - even after 42 years there hardly is any! Mostly just a lot of crud. Where the door and the tub meet, in an area not visible in the photo is a slime monster I have to clean up. I think it is caused by a lot of lasagna and my BIL likes to use only half an Electrsol tab because he thinks it saves money. This is the one who spends 700 dollars on weights. Please, do us repairmen all a favor, use enough detergent!

Post# 468443 , Reply# 69 10/10/2010 at 22:27 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Even the sump has very little rust - just crap.

Post# 468444 , Reply# 70 10/10/2010 at 22:34 (4,939 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Here's a color I never seen before.* Really the grossest part of this was the custom panel kit: The frame was rusting, actually smelled, its a good thing my tetanus was updated. The wood was actually rotting at the bottom. Underneath was this kind of beige matte finish. I might leave it this way as I kind of like it. I didn't know they had "toast' back then. What I plan to do is set up a cabinet and counter in our game room with a sink on the left and Kaddi on the right and that way we have a place to prepare food and entertain and we can have the KA mixer and coffe maker set up on top. Bajahuma can you visualize this and make a CADD picture of it? I like them. The counter will be about 6 feet long.

Post# 468504 , Reply# 71 10/11/2010 at 10:42 (4,939 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)
Checkrate/Likes I imagine the matte beige finish is the "primed panel" they sold to be painted by the customer for those who wanted something other than the standard colors.

Post# 469755 , Reply# 72 10/16/2010 at 19:36 (4,933 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *Update, and it is not good... Give me some time to sulk....* First the good news, we found the loose connection, turns out one of the connections to the program switch was dislodged. But now the motor has issues. It buzzes and will not go. Oh, it will go if you turn the impeller before starting it but then you have a water swirler and not a dishwasher. When the motor is running, the sounds it makes make my skin crawl. I must have been in denial about the condition of the motor, it is more far gone than I thought. By the way, the shaft turns freely, so I don't think it is binding. It just will not go "on its own initiative". I just need some time to think about what to do next. If anyone wants parts the offer still stands. I probably can keep him in the garage until it is really cold then I will be pressured to get it out. I can get the door off, I know the timer is rare but I cannot unscrew it from the door. I will probably save the pump parts as well. Steve, I will also take the blower too. If I go ahead with a new (emerson?) motor would it have the same screw holes for the pump as the original? I don't know how I am going to get the new seal/impeller off - maybe a "pulley puller"? Spending 200 for a motor is getting into new dishwasher territory. I am trying not to feel too bad. Doctors don't save every life, I guess I don't have to either. Give me a week I will let you know if I part him out.

Post# 469762 , Reply# 73 10/16/2010 at 20:15 (4,933 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Fret not..It aint gone yet!* Bob, you need part number 4171907 which lists for 145.21 thru sears.com and therefore should be available elsewhere as well. That is a pretty decent price for a complete motor with seal and gaskets. It seems strange that your motor isn't turning faster that you say it ism but chalk it up to experience. Replace the motor and you can probably get at least another 20 years out of the machine. And to answer one of your questions, yes all the holes will line up perfectly on the new motor. Here is the link to sears, but you can try other parts houses and even ebay! CLICK HERE TO GO TO stevet's LINK

Post# 469769 , Reply# 74 10/16/2010 at 21:03 (4,933 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)
Checkrate/Likes Thanks, Steve, I'll look into it, I appreciate it. I just need a week to sulk and figure out what to do. I wonder if I want to put that much of my money into it. Looks like someone else in the area is looking for a classic KA too. Do you think I should save Kaddi or should I part him out? Anyone want the parts? This all has been a great learning experience but one thing I think I have learned is that some appliances may be just too far gone if people really used them heavily. We collectors should stick to estate sales where the owners were little old ladies that did not use them much.

Post# 469874 , Reply# 75 10/17/2010 at 10:18 (4,933 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Sulk ?* If you get rid of that machine without having conquered it first, you will regret your decision and sulk even longer over its loss! I have tossed many machines and parts from them only to wish I had saved them, but sometimes space is at a premium and a wife hounding me to clean the garage is a powerful motivator! I say keep it even as a spare machine or if you entertain alot, as a secondary unit to do the extra dishes while the daily driver is doing a load too. As some guys here will attest,I have a spare unit in my garage that is hooked up and whether it is a Kenmore, Whilrpool or Kitchenaid, I always have spare capacity for extra pots and pans, dishes and such.

Post# 721727 , Reply# 76 12/17/2013 at 23:03 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes *kd-16 leak out the door* working on this kdi-16 for my girlfriend's mother. water drips from the bottom corners of the door. First time I tested, it was the left side of the door on the first cycle and the right side on the second cycle. That seemed odd. I have replaced the tar-like goo along the spot-welds inside the door and at the corners with silicone, as it was hard in some places, very soft in others, and I felt water coming through the tar in the corners near the hinges before I took the front of the door off. The tar was pulling out and the leak slowed appreciably when I pushed it back in, but it was very soft, so I replaced it with silicone when I opened the door up. Seems to leak when the machine is filled and slinging water (not surprisingly). I'm wondering if it is filling too high and sloshing out? I'm going to take another look tomorrow or the next day. I have wondered if the door seal might have shrunk in length, so I extended that a bit with some silicone and magnets. I covered the door seal with duct tape to add a little thickness, but it didn't help. It has me puzzled. I was so sure it was the tar-stuff at the left and right sides that I didn't take the front off the door the last time I tested it, and there wasn't time after that test. It made it through a cycle with no leak, but offered a couple drops on the second and some teaspoons on the third. It appears that this machine does not have a float overfill shutoff device? The dryer mushroom in the back doesn't have a float in it, does it? How does this thing know how much water is in it? She is 80 (the mom) and getting frustrated with the leak and is talking about going to Sears. She has company coming for Christmas. I hate to see a machine like this go to the landfill. I tell her it is a great machine, if we can just find out how the water is getting into the door and out onto the floor. It seems to be landing on the rubber strip at the bottom and dripping out the corner. The whole strip gets wet. I don't have a book, so I don't know what's supposed to be there. Seems to me it ought to be made so that sloshed water would be redirected back inside the cabinet. I reworked the door springs a couple years ago when the ends broke off of them. Is there any sort of seal or flap that is supposed to keep water from sloshing up into the door? I am thinking of installing a silicone flap on the door with neodymium magnets just to break up the sloshing. (it's made for plugging the gap between stove and counter or between washer and dryer). It's a great machine. No chips, no rust. Not much paint on the timer panel, but enough to kinda figure out what it's supposed to be doing. I haven't watched it leak with the front of the door off, but if it is overfilling or oversloshing, there's nothing in the door that can stop the tsunami. I know some newer machines have some sort of diverter at the corners where the door meets the cabinet, but I haven't seen evidence that this machine had them. I don't see evidence that the detergent dispenser seal is leaking. Any ideas?

Post# 721736 , Reply# 77 12/17/2013 at 23:35 (3,775 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)
Checkrate/Likes Why on God's green earth are we resurrecting a 3+ year old thread instead of starting a new one.????????

Post# 721779 , Reply# 78 12/18/2013 at 08:00 (3,775 days old) by DADoES (TX,�U.S. of A.)
Checkrate/Likes � Likely because people find old threads on searches (Google or whichever) and can post to them since the archives have been opened to reactivation.

Post# 721782 , Reply# 79 12/18/2013 at 08:09 (3,775 days old) by DADoES (TX,�U.S. of A.)
Checkrate/Likes � There's no float to control the fill level.� Fills are timed (probably two timer increments), with a flow-washer in the water valve to limit the flow rate against various potential household water pressures. If the 16 series is same as the 17 series, overfill is detected via a pressure switch connected to the pump sump area. If overfilling is happening, the water level can possibly contact the spray arm which would slosh some out of the door vent.� The normal fill level is to near top of the filter mesh, below the spray arm.

Post# 721790 , Reply# 80 12/18/2013 at 09:22 (3,775 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)
Checkrate/Likes *Backed into a corner?* Warren, Does your rack have the small plastic shields clipped to the front corners of the rack? These were put there to prevent water from splashing out of the door and running down the side of the machine that forms the area that the door fits into. That may be your whole problem. Also, by now, the door gasket is probably pretty dry and you may want to draw the door in tighter when it latches. This is a simple task,but involves removing the control panel cover and the dioor handle. If you do that much, you just have to shim out the latch assembly by putting in thin washers one at a time between the latch and the bracket that holds it to the door and reinstalling the screws. Start with one in each corner of the latch and see if that helps. New door gaskets should still be out there. And yes, there is a pressure switch that controls for overfilling but sometimes the opening in the sump gets clogged up. It is on the left side so you may want to take a Q-tip and clean it out and see if it works better and the leaking stops. Don't push too hard as you may cause damage. Pretend you are putting the Q-tip into your ear!

Post# 721793 , Reply# 81 12/18/2013 at 09:41 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes Yes, it was a google search. I was overjoyed to find people who knew what they were talking about, who were talking about exactly the machine that I was wrestling with. I hope I wasn't too enthusiastic. DADoES mentioned the door vent. I had wondered about that. Does it vent through the bottom of the door? The machine is 2 hours away, so I have to fill my head in one location and then empty it through my hands in another. Thinking that it might be blowing out the vent, I was considering adding a temporary silicone flap to break up slosh toward the bottom of the door. The spray arms seem tight, so I don't thing I'm getting an errant stream shooting right at the door from the hub. I don't think it's filling to the bottom of the spray arm, but the machine is in an otherwise-immaculate kitchen and I'm never left alone with it, so I can't run it with the door open very far to see what's going on, and if I peer through a crack at the top, my glasses fog up too badly. I have (briefly) considered making a fake door out of plexiglass... What I really want to do is show up with a mop sometime when nobody is home. When I open the door mid-cycle, the water is not at the level of the spray arm. I'll check it against the filter. Maybe the flow-rate washer is eaten up? I'll look for what might be a pressure switch in the pump sump. Has anybody else had this kind of problem (water dribbling out the bottom of the door)? I know it's not as interesting as motor bearings and pump seals, but it's all I've got right now. I really do appreciate your experience, you willingness to share it, and your dedication to keeping these machines going. I have access (at the Habitat ReStore) to a dozen dishwashers for $20 or less, but I would rather get this one to stop dripping for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is that this lovely woman won't have to learn new buttons and dials and sounds. She has been using this machine for 40 years and is familiar and comfortable with it, and is not a big fan of change. But she doesn't want water on her floor. If it were mine, I'd get through Christmas with a dribble cup under each corner, but when I mention that, she gives me that pained 'you've got to be kidding me' look.

Post# 721795 , Reply# 82 12/18/2013 at 09:43 (3,775 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)
Checkrate/Likes *Mark:* "Why on God's green earth are we resurrecting a 3+ year old thread instead of starting a new one?" So we can all ask Neptunebob how his resurrection of the KDI16 turned out! One of the things that I sometimes wish was different around here is that we have a lot of threads just - you should pardon the expression - peter out. We hear of a problem, there are responses offering advice and resources, often the appliance's owner begins work and posts photos of progress, and then - nothing. This thread is a classic example. After more than 70 posts, we didn't get the end of the story. So, Bob, how's it shakin'?

Post# 721796 , Reply# 83 12/18/2013 at 09:54 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes stevet, these are clips on the front of the bottom dish rack? On the top or the bottom? I don't have it in front of me... I think every time I have tested the machine, it has been with the bottom rack sitting on the kitchen table (they have been using it for storage...) That would probably render any clips, even if they are still attached, less effective. I'll look through the photos in this thread and see if I can find what they look like. The door seals are pretty hard, but I don't know what they are supposed to feel like. They grab a piece of paper, and a layer of duct tape on them didn't seem to help the problem. I chased a bunch of sets on the internet, but they ended up being out of stock. I found one that really existed, but it was kinda' pricey and I didn't want to install it unless I was sure that was the problem. If I heard this right, the clips may cause the drip? Are these clips still available? I'll take a look around.

Post# 721803 , Reply# 84 12/18/2013 at 10:30 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes *clips n drips* stevet, looking at bob's rack-shot in this thread, I don't see anything that looks anti-splash on the bottom rack. Were you talking about the black clips on the end of the metal mechanism that holds the top rack? I would love to hear more about these clips, especially if they might be the complete cause of this problem. I could imagine that something like a clip of some kind might have fallen off or broken off at some point, and someone found it at the strainer at some point and wondered briefly what it was and then disposed of it. My mind doesn't work like that. When I find something mysterious, I have to know where it came from and what it does. I realize that some folks would rather dispense with mysterious items that clutter up the free flow of the known and the comfortable. I think it may be one of those 'two kind of people in the world' things. I sometimes wonder what it's like to live life filled with the kind of magic that expresses itself like that: 'Oh, look! There's another black plastic thingie in my dishwasher that seems to have appeared from nowhere, or from another dimension or something. I may have a magic dishwasher, or at least a dishwasher with the wormhole generator feature. So what should I do with these oddly-shaped articles that seem to defy logic and physics, or operate with quantum qualities, but at levels well beyond the subatomic? I think I'll toss it them in the trash.' Does this machine have some things that sit in the bottom front corners by the door, I think I have seen them called 'diverters'. Thank you (some say y'all down here) for helping me out with this. warren

Post# 721804 , Reply# 85 12/18/2013 at 10:35 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes *living dangerously* stevet, q-tip in the ear? so I am supposed to restrict the use of the q-tip to the exterior surface of the sump?

Post# 721805 , Reply# 86 12/18/2013 at 10:39 (3,775 days old) by DADoES (TX,�U.S. of A.)
Checkrate/Likes � Picture of the lower rack clips (front corners) from a newer machine.

Post# 721806 , Reply# 87 12/18/2013 at 10:40 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes *grammar* sorry. I didn't mean to say 'Does this machine have some things that sit in the bottom front corners by the door, I think I have seen them called 'diverters'. It doesn't. I meant to say, 'does it 'spose to have them'.

Post# 721809 , Reply# 88 12/18/2013 at 10:51 (3,775 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes *DADoES' rack clips* Those do appear to be the kind of clips that wouldn't function well when the rack is on the kitchen table. Even if they are present on the rack. Do they run all the way down the corner of the rack? I wonder if they are even present on this machine (2 hours away)? I wonder if I can still get some if they are not? I wonder if I can make some out of the strip of silicone in the trunk of my car? I wonder if the wormhole generator will recognize them as a foreign object and send them off into another dimension? I wonder what some Being somewhere will think when these squishy inert flaps magically appear in her dishwasher?

Post# 721825 , Reply# 89 12/18/2013 at 12:46 (3,774 days old) by warren ()
Checkrate/Likes downloaded the manual. should be useful, if not just plain interesting. found the clips. they don't run down the whole corner of the rack. now i need to find some clips. or get creative with some silicone or stainless steel or plastic or something. if they don't help, I'll q-tip the pressure ear canal. and then adjust the door. and then install small clear funnels on the corners with tubes that go under the machine and through the floor to the dirt crawl space below.. I once fixed a dripping showerhead with a piece of string that led the drops gently to the plastic shower floor. didn't save any water, but i got some sleep.

Post# 721856 , Reply# 90 12/18/2013 at 16:41 (3,774 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)
Checkrate/Likes archived threads reactivated.....what can throw you off at first is its comes up as a new un-read thread....and also not paying close attention and catching that this thread is actually 3 years old...one of those things where you start reading before you realize when it was first posted....we all do it, it happens...not to mention these archived threads don't pop up all that often, so your not really looking out for them..... I haven't tried it yet, but wonder, can we start a new thread for our question, and link the older archive as a reference to an issue we are having?... and yes, curious, how did Bob make out, and whats the outcome from Warren's investigation.....keep us posted!

Post# 721860 , Reply# 91 12/18/2013 at 16:59 (3,774 days old) by bogo (montreal)
Checkrate/Likes Unless it's related to a resolved issue I don't see problem in resurrecting old thread.

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