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Thread Number: 30927
Laundry Brainstorming |
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| Post# 466861 10/2/2010 at 10:08 (4,953 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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| Post# 466863 , Reply# 1 10/2/2010 at 10:22 (4,953 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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FL + 120v + Water Heating
I have been thinking about what it takes to heat water in a 120v FL washing machine. Typically, water heating is managed through an immersed calrod heating unit ~1000w. While this is generally a very dependable way of heating water. Are there ways that water can be heated more quickly and efficiently?
Well, microwave energy can heat water at a fairly fast pace, but in a washing machine would be difficult to deploy safely. What about induction? Can induction be used to energize the inner wash tub and heat the water quickly? Perhaps install the induction source at the 1 o'clock position in the outer tub or in the rear bulk head. Although, typical stainless steel doesn't react to the magnetic energy of the induction head, we could use baffles of a different material or a couple of outer bands around the tub to distribute the heat around the circumference of the drum. Could we achieve near boiling temperatures in a short period of time with this technology? What are your thoughts? Malcolm | ||
| Post# 466894 , Reply# 5 10/2/2010 at 12:15 (4,953 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Induction Power
Well, they do make these portable induction hotplates that seem to do the deed on 120v. Would a lower wattage version be able to heat 4 to 5 gallons of water in 30 minutes or less?
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Post# 466931 , Reply# 8 10/2/2010 at 16:25 (4,953 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Usually no more than 80% of total watts (1400w for a 15amp and 1920w for 20amp circuts).
Modern/newer wiring long as it is properly installed might be able to carry >80% loads for along time and repeatedly, but housing stock (and common sense for that matter), in the United States varies. In NYS for example you still have many, many homes and apartments with fuse boxes and barely 100amp electrical service. Even then it is common to find only a handful of outlets all on the same circut. So if the washer or another electrical appliance is pulling near or full power, to avoid tripping the circut or blowing a fuse nothing else *should* be running at that time. Methinks much as with everything else these days, manufacturers build to one set of specs, rather than trying to allow for differences. Case in point older electric dryers that could be wired for either 220v or 120v have mostly long disappeared, IIRC. As for heating water in a washing machine, most American sold units probably are working under the design that unlike models sold elsewhere in the world, these units are only going to "boost" cold or warm tap water to hot. This suits the common 120v/15amp or 20amp service found in most domestic settings. Yes, I know persons go on about how many laundry rooms or such have a "dryer" electrical circut for 220v service, but that is not totally common. Indeed Miele tried for ages to sell Americans washers and dryers using that line of thought, and look where it got them. Then we must consider cost. For those with acess, natural gas or oil are a much cheaper way to supply energy for heating purposes. Here again this is where the United States differs from say Europe and the UK. On the other side of the pond coal, wood,peat are pretty much all the natural resources for generating heat. Well aside from oil and natural gas coming out of the North Sea region. Combines to make electrical power the common source for heating, at least as far as laundry and dishwashing appliances are concerned. Even at rates that would make most Americans cringe, one would wager EU/UK laundry and dishwashing appliances are more efficient because they run on 220V (or in some "old" cases 400v) service. Long as 120v service remains the common electircal supply in the USA, there are limits to heating capacity. While it is possible to heat even the puny amounts of water used by most American front loaders on 120v service. It is going to take a very long time. With today's modern detergents the wash will probably be mostly clean long before that unit reaches 120F from 85F. In which case the unit will still leave the heating portion of the cycle and commence with the wash. All the while exposing laundry to un-necessary wear by long wash times. | ||
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Post# 466935 , Reply# 9 10/2/2010 at 16:51 (4,953 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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My old Philips H-axis toploader was built to work on a 10 Amp 220V circuit. What they did to maximize the heating efficiency was they let the machine only tumble once in a while and during that short tumble the heating element was turned off. As soon as the drum stood still the heating element was turned on again. If that was done in an American frontloader a machine on a 15 Amp circuit could have a 1400 Watts heating element.
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Post# 466944 , Reply# 10 10/2/2010 at 17:21 (4,953 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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IIRC Early Speed Queen/Amana Front Loading Washers
Sold for about a hot minute on the USA market before some problem took them away, did just that. Owner's manual stated that during the heating phase the washer drum would only tumble intermittently until set temp was reached.
IIRC, this still was more of a "boosted" hot than heating cold water to hot. | ||
| Post# 466945 , Reply# 11 10/2/2010 at 17:25 (4,953 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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SQ | ||
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Post# 466947 , Reply# 12 10/2/2010 at 17:32 (4,953 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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Derating to 80% doesn't apply here Derating applies only to a continuous load, which is 3 hours or more at the maximum current e.g. 15 amps. | ||
| Post# 467076 , Reply# 13 10/3/2010 at 12:22 (4,952 days old) by aquarius1984 (Planet earth) | ||
Considering that 4 to 5 gallons (added extra to saturation of cotton) is not needed to wash 6-7kg of laundry hotter water and better results will be achieved with a much lower level.
Generally find cotton takes 1 litre per kilo to saturate. Then all one would need is a token 10litres (2 gallons at most) of water hidden in the machine below the door to carry the detegenty water and be heated much quicker to boiling and then be cascaded invisibly through the fabric. This is easily done using a close fitting inner tub to outer tub, and water lifting paddles to shower laundry with the hotter wash solution - we have it here! Im sure also given our longer Euro wash times even better results will be attainable. Something the American manufacturers need to latch on to in order to become as advanced as we are. Cannot remember the last time I used a pre wash or pre treated stains and especially now I have a new Beko 1600rpm machine that uses 45 litres give or take a few litres of water to wash and rinse 6kg of cotton. Never had results so good either proving less water really is more. Cant see why a 1400w heater with really low level could not achieve temperatures of 60-90 degrees C in the space of a 100 minute wash portion especially if it was to boost incoming hot water. We had shorter wash times in the 1980s and prior but we soon got used to long washes and im sure America will do rather rapidly when they see the superb results we get :) :) | ||
| Post# 470110 , Reply# 14 10/18/2010 at 13:43 (4,937 days old) by aegokocarat (United Kingdom) | ||
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i think they should make a washer that can sense the fabric,the soil, what options to use and the hardness of water to give xelent reslts sort of like the blomberg smartouch dishwasher or as it sells over here beko one touch dishwasher. | ||
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Post# 470141 , Reply# 15 10/18/2010 at 16:31 (4,937 days old) by yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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Well one, we already have washers with steam = heating element used to create the steam
and two, would this mean that manufacturers would have to use metal outter tubs, for fear of the plastic tub would melt near the heating element even the older dishwashers, with plastic tubs, have a huge, almost electric oven style/size, operated from 110 volts, although it did pause the timer while it heated..... it not like your gonna use this heated option on every load, consider it as a pot/pans cycle for your dirtiest, greasiest loads | ||
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Post# 471938 , Reply# 17 10/28/2010 at 11:32 (4,927 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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ADDING HEAT TO WASH WATER
The cheapest way to heat water water in a washer using electricity is an immersion heating element, except the possibility of using a heat pump, which is now being done more and more for a homes main water heater. It is not less expensive to run or more effencent to use 240 volts as opposed to using 120 power to run any type of household appliances. If it was even 2% cheaper to run an air-conditioner on 240 volts there would be a lot more push to run all large appliances on 240, but actually more and more ACs are going to 120 operation as they are becoming more efficient. The advantage of using 240 volts as opposed to using 120 is that it makes the appliance a little cheaper to manufacture and its much cheaper to run circuits for 240 volt appliances because the power supply wire can be 1/2 the size witch saves a lot of copper and aluminum.
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Post# 472082 , Reply# 18 10/28/2010 at 22:41 (4,927 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Quote: But actually more and more A/Cs are going to 120 operation as they are becoming more efficient.
This is because more and more BTUs can be moved with less energy as efficency increases. So the maximum size /capacity of an A/C can go up and up on a standard 120v 15/20a circuit. At one time 12,000 BTU/h was about the biggest you could squeeze out of 120v. (Cools three to four rooms). Now with higher EERs exceeding 10.0 (Energy Efficiency Ratios are BTUs of heat moved per watt of electiricty) the capacities avaialable on 110v go up and up. For those of us with ancient wiring and without 220v service this is a huge blessing! Another benefit to 220v is simply pushing more watts through the same gauge(thickness) of wire. (This is the corollary of 'same watts through less copper') 110v does have its benefits; if one does anything stupid...er mindless, or dangerous or has an accident with electricity, one gets to live to perhaps do it again! This post was last edited 10/28/2010 at 23:00 | ||
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Post# 472219 , Reply# 20 10/29/2010 at 18:52 (4,926 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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Voltage danger USA-style 220V power has 220V between the two hot wires, but only 110V between each hot wire and ground. So working on 220V equipment here ought not be much more dangerous than 110V equipment, unless you manage to interpose yourself between the two hot wires, or short-circuit them together. | ||
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