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Thread Number: 31496
Everyone meet Horsey->LG
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Post# 475105   11/14/2010 at 19:43 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

This LG (WM2277HW)came in->Time to see what it's made of.




Post# 475106 , Reply# 1   11/14/2010 at 19:48 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

7 cycles
1200 RPM spin
Direct Drive Brushless 3 phase DC Vector PWM
heater
pump recircation feature
2004-2005
Korea


Post# 475108 , Reply# 2   11/14/2010 at 19:55 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The original owners state that it gives "LE" error a few minutes after a cycle is started. They also state that it has a leak. bearing test shows that they are bad-> looking at the rear of the outer tub shows Mud-Butt->failed tub seal->flooded bearings. Machine roars, and vertical "play" in the clothes basket. Address one issue at a time-> first the LE error.

Post# 475109 , Reply# 3   11/14/2010 at 20:07 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

LE error means bad Hall Effect sensor. This machine has a Direct Drive Brushless DC PWM motor. I refer to them as "Pan cake" motors. The motor control system is "closed-loop" in that it and the computer rely on feedback from the motor in the form of vector data. This vector data tells the controller and computer things such as the rotation speed of the motor, voltage and current, etc. This data allows the computer to react better to sudden changes to the load that is on the motor. When the hall effect sensor goes bad, the vector data can be out of range. A bad hall effect sensor will often cause the motor to lock and emit a weird metallic sound when current is applied to it. Replacing the sensor is easy, and costs ~$25. A picture of the motor is below.

Post# 475111 , Reply# 4   11/14/2010 at 20:16 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

To replace the sensor, the armature of the motor(hub) must be removed, followed by the stator. Remove the hub by removing the center bolt. To remove the bolt, it's best to have another person hold the cylinder from the front of the machine. Applying pressure to the bolt will cause the hub and cylinder to turn. There are other ways to remove the hub, but you could damage the windings on the stator, IF you don't know what you are doing.

Post# 475112 , Reply# 5   11/14/2010 at 20:22 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

After removing the bolt, grab the outer ends of the hub with both hands and gently pull it toward you. There are magnets on the inside of the hub, and they will try to cling to the stator once the hub is off the shaft. Try not to let the hub touch the stator!! (Picture of the stator)

Post# 475113 , Reply# 6   11/14/2010 at 20:23 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Inside of the hub.

Post# 475114 , Reply# 7   11/14/2010 at 20:26 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the metal guide that holds the supply wires in place.

Post# 475115 , Reply# 8   11/14/2010 at 20:27 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Close up of the wire guide.

Post# 475116 , Reply# 9   11/14/2010 at 20:38 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the 6 bolts that hold the stator in place. Hold the stator as you remove the last bolt->YOU DO NOT WANT TO DAMAGE IT IN ANY WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Turn the stator over, disconnect the supply and hall effect sensor connector. These connectors are VERY snug and will require a little force to remove. Hold the connector jacket on the unit while you apply opposite force removing the connector.
Picture of opposite side of stator.(supply connector and hall effect sensor)


Post# 475117 , Reply# 10   11/14/2010 at 20:40 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Close up of the sensor that needs replaced.

Post# 475118 , Reply# 11   11/14/2010 at 20:42 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Side view of the sensor. The sensor is attached to the stator by tabs. Remove the sensor by lifting the tabs.

Post# 475119 , Reply# 12   11/14/2010 at 20:43 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

New sensor bag

Post# 475120 , Reply# 13   11/14/2010 at 20:44 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

New sensor

Post# 475122 , Reply# 14   11/14/2010 at 20:48 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The sensor will align itself in the proper place, it has been properly installed when the tabs snap in place.

New sensor installed


Post# 475132 , Reply# 15   11/14/2010 at 21:00 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Now... put back together and test! Video below shows how the machine should behave. Put the machine in diagnostic mode and test. Press Spin Speed + Soil Level buttons at the same time, then press the power button. The machine will sound and light up. Make sure the door is closed, press the >|| button to advance the tests. Motor should rotate at this point. If motor still locks, you have other issues that need to be addressed.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 475135 , Reply# 16   11/14/2010 at 21:05 (1,440 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Now it's time to address issues with the bearings and failed seal.

Post# 475178 , Reply# 17   11/15/2010 at 08:24 (1,440 days old) by RevvinKevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
Very Cool!

revvinkevin's profile picture


This is very neat Melvin, THANKS for posting! I look forward to seeing the bearing and seal documentary!

Kevin


Post# 475179 , Reply# 18   11/15/2010 at 08:39 (1,440 days old) by amyswasher (fort stockton tx)        

Is this going to be your washer to keep or are working on it at you job to sell later?

Post# 475191 , Reply# 19   11/15/2010 at 09:45 (1,439 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
LE Error

mrb627's profile picture
I seem to recall a problem with the sensor and the LE Error. If my memory serves, the sensor would wiggle out of position and cause a random error. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

I sent my LG set on to a new home within a year of owning them. They just didn't feel built to last at all. The dryer had a rattle I could not eliminate. The washer began to squeak with general tumbling action. Drove me crazy. Don't miss it one bit.

Malcolm


Post# 475203 , Reply# 20   11/15/2010 at 10:46 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Kevin:Oh this is one of the more "interesting" repairs-> the tear-down is NOT straight forward.


Malcolm:

I sent my LG set on to a new home within a year of owning them. They just didn't feel built to last at all. The dryer had a rattle I could not eliminate. The washer began to squeak with general tumbling action. Drove me crazy. Don't miss it one bit.

You have something there!! I'll get to construction and materials soon enough! First I have to continue with the donkey-work of the tear down and what else was found->thus why I call this machine Horsey!

Amyswasher:
I collect, repair and resell machines in my spare time. Your question about whether or not I will sell or keep this machine I will answer later, after going through this more difficult repair. As to what I found i'm still very much shocked and appalled as to what I found on a machine that is no more than 5 years old. I'll reserve the rest of my opinion until later.

Parts have been ordered today. Lets just say, in order to do the repair right, the seal and bearings were not the only things ordered.




Post# 475204 , Reply# 21   11/15/2010 at 11:06 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The outer tub on this machine must be removed through the front. Parts on this machine are a little more delicate and the electrical connectors are snug and hard to remove. EXTREME CARE MOST BE TAKEN! To remove the drum-> it is best to reduce its weight by removing as much as possible before the outer tub is removed. After removing the outer tub, dis-assembly of the tub is required.

To remove the outer tub->remove the rear lower access panel->remove the top->remove the motor->remove the controls->remove the front->release the shocks->remove counter weights->disconnect hoses to outer tub->remove soap drawer-> disconnect and move wires->remove terminals to heater->remove tub by springs.


Post# 475235 , Reply# 22   11/15/2010 at 13:16 (1,439 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

whirlcool's profile picture
Interesting.
The Dual 701 turntable (1970) used the same hall effect coil system to move the platter. The result is a very stable speed.


Post# 475288 , Reply# 23   11/15/2010 at 14:54 (1,439 days old) by macboy91si (Lexington, KY)        
I Can't Stop!

macboy91si's profile picture
Melvin, this is great material. It's very interesting what you're finding in this relatively new LG machine. I know it takes a lot of time photographing and posting this stuff and I appreciate all the time. I also enjoyed the Neptune teardown, but I have to say that one looked very daunting not having even seen one apart like that. This one seems like it will be a bear to do, so I certainly look forward to seeing what's next. This is also the 1st of the Direct Drive setups I've seen and I have to say it's a bit more complicated than I thought it would be, but very interesting. We should chat again sometime.

-Tim


Post# 475291 , Reply# 24   11/15/2010 at 14:59 (1,439 days old) by DADoES ( )        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Fisher & Paykel's SmartDrive motor is the same design and predates LG for market introduction by several years. They refer to the Hall Effect sensor as an RPS (Rotor Position Sensor). As I recall, F&P filed a joint lawsuit against LG for duplicating the design but I don't know what was the result. My GWL08 is 11 years old and never has needed any repairs.

The rotor pictured appears to have 12 magnets, but there are probably four in each group, total of 48 magnets.


Post# 475340 , Reply# 25   11/15/2010 at 20:04 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the top by taking out the bottom screw of this white plastic piece(for stacking?) There is another plastic piece on the other side of the machine as well. Grab the plastic pieces and pull the top toward you->lift up and remove the top.

Post# 475341 , Reply# 26   11/15/2010 at 20:08 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Machine with the top removed->I've removed the cover to the PCB for a reason, which I will get to later.

Post# 475342 , Reply# 27   11/15/2010 at 20:16 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Next, remove the motor->you can follow the steps above to do that. Time to get ready to remove the front. There are two hidden screws at the opening of the soap drawer. Pull the soap drawer out, there is a tab near the middle, towards the back of the drawer. Press the tab in and pull the soap drawer out.
Soap drawer--


Post# 475345 , Reply# 28   11/15/2010 at 20:17 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Tab

Post# 475347 , Reply# 29   11/15/2010 at 20:19 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Drawer out!

Post# 475348 , Reply# 30   11/15/2010 at 20:22 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There is a screw on each side.

Post# 475349 , Reply# 31   11/15/2010 at 20:23 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Screw holes

Post# 475351 , Reply# 32   11/15/2010 at 20:27 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There are a series of tabs located at the top under side of the controls->release them gently.

Post# 475352 , Reply# 33   11/15/2010 at 20:31 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

After the tabs have been released->pull the controls forward and down GENTLY.

Post# 475354 , Reply# 34   11/15/2010 at 20:33 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There are tabs on the underside of the control region, be careful of those.

Post# 475355 , Reply# 35   11/15/2010 at 20:39 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Unplug and release the connectors from the ties. Guide the wires through the metal opening.

Post# 475357 , Reply# 36   11/15/2010 at 20:42 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the screws in the front.

Post# 475358 , Reply# 37   11/15/2010 at 20:45 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There is at least one screw on the top behind where the controls go on both sides of the front of the machine.

Post# 475359 , Reply# 38   11/15/2010 at 20:55 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the back plane where the controls go. Open the door to the trap at the bottom of the front of the machine. Use a flat-blade screw driver to open push in the tab at the top of the door. Remove the door by pushing in the sides at the bottom of the door. Remove the screw under the trap. Release and push the hose next to the trap into the small opening. Pull the trap housing out.

Post# 475360 , Reply# 39   11/15/2010 at 20:57 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the hidden screw.

Post# 475363 , Reply# 40   11/15/2010 at 21:03 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Open the door->remove the boot from the door. There is a spring release ring that holds the boot to the door. Gently move the release ring out of the groove on the boot. Start to gradually remove the ring all around the boot. The boot can be removed from the lip on the door once the release ring has been removed.

Post# 475366 , Reply# 41   11/15/2010 at 21:07 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

remove the drawer compartment by siding it back and lifting up and out.

Post# 475369 , Reply# 42   11/15/2010 at 21:10 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Pull the front forward slightly, and disconnect the door lock assembly. Remove the front.

Post# 475371 , Reply# 43   11/15/2010 at 21:16 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the counter weights->use pliers to push the bolt holes together to remove the counter weights.

Post# 475373 , Reply# 44   11/15/2010 at 21:20 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the two hoses that are mounted to the top of the outer tub. The first hose is the breathe hose->located at the top rear of the outer tub. The second hose connects to the soap compartment.

Breathe hose--


Post# 475374 , Reply# 45   11/15/2010 at 21:21 (1,439 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
Am I being dumb (a possibility)

or is this thing more complex than truly necessary?


Or am I just used to REAL Maytag?


This is interesting, and I do thank you a great deal for taking the photographs, but......


Lawrence/Maytagbear


Post# 475375 , Reply# 46   11/15/2010 at 21:22 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Hose from the soap compartment.

Post# 475376 , Reply# 47   11/15/2010 at 21:24 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the floats -Breathe hose

Post# 475377 , Reply# 48   11/15/2010 at 21:26 (1,439 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the floats->soap hose

Post# 475412 , Reply# 49   11/16/2010 at 03:52 (1,439 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        

Supremewhirlpol, I appreciate the pics. I wonder if we will see a plexiglas front on any of these new machines, like Maytag used to do? I think many shoppers would be absolutely shocked. Your description of " pancake motor" makes me think of Hunter ceiling fans. Thanks for the great photo's. alr2903

Post# 475444 , Reply# 50   11/16/2010 at 09:29 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to remove the shocks-> there are 3->two in the lower front on each side of the machine->one shock in the back at the lower center. The shock at the rear of the machine is mounted to the outer tub by 4 screws, remove them->pull the shock down and move it toward you. While you are at it, remove the hose that (eventually) goes to the pressure switch.
...Oh, and try to stay clear of Horsey mud-butt.


Post# 475447 , Reply# 51   11/16/2010 at 09:47 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The shocks in the front of the machine are harder to remove from the outer tub. The shocks in the front are held to the outer tub by a pin that has an indentation toward the end.

-front of the pin


Post# 475450 , Reply# 52   11/16/2010 at 09:52 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Depending how limber you are and how dexterous your hands are, these pins can be a real pain to remove-> turn the pin to where you can feel the indentation at the end->use pliers to push in the indentation, at the same time use another set of pliers to pull the pin out.

--The pin


Post# 475452 , Reply# 53   11/16/2010 at 09:56 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Remove the recirculation hose from the recirculation pump. This hose goes from the pump to the top of the boot. Remove the hose from the ties->it will go with the outer tub when it is removed.

Post# 475453 , Reply# 54   11/16/2010 at 10:03 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Disconnect the supply from the heater, cut the tie that holds the thermistor wires and disconnect the thermistor connector. Remove the drain hose from the outer tub. Make sure you have clearance to remove the outer tub. There are plastic guards located on the top of the spring wells. Remove the top part of the guards. Grab the springs and lift up->the outer tub should come out of the cabinet.

Post# 475454 , Reply# 55   11/16/2010 at 10:05 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The cabinet.

Post# 475455 , Reply# 56   11/16/2010 at 10:07 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The outer tub.

Post# 475456 , Reply# 57   11/16/2010 at 10:10 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

To get to the bearings->got to disassemble the outer tub. The front of the outer is attached to the rear, by bolts->remove them.

Post# 475457 , Reply# 58   11/16/2010 at 10:11 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Front of outer tub.

Post# 475459 , Reply# 59   11/16/2010 at 10:19 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The rear outer tub->Remove the cylinder. The cylinder and the spider are one piece when it is removed. As I found out the quality of metal of the shaft of the spider is so poor that the threads inside of the shaft got ruined, when I used the original bolt to remove the cylinder with the hammer. If you have a different way to remove the cylinder, WITHOUT damaging the spider shaft OR the bolt, please do share.

Post# 475461 , Reply# 60   11/16/2010 at 10:26 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The spider-> after ~5 years! Just pitiful!! Corrosion EVERYWHERE! There is also corrosion at the entrance of where the shaft sits in the tub seal->not good. The under side of the spider is very rough. Since the cylinder can rotate up to 1200 RPM, using a spider that is compromised to the extent of this one is a big safety issue. This is a BIG problem. Have to order a spider now.

Post# 475463 , Reply# 61   11/16/2010 at 10:27 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Such poor quality!

Post# 475465 , Reply# 62   11/16/2010 at 10:29 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

more bad!!

Post# 475466 , Reply# 63   11/16/2010 at 10:30 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

.

Post# 475468 , Reply# 64   11/16/2010 at 11:00 (1,438 days old) by vacfanatic (Omaha, NE)        
Bearing Failure

vacfanatic's profile picture
Wondering if a likely reason the bearing failed is because of the spider corrosion. I can't imagine the bearing seal could remain water tight after looking at the condition of that spider around the shaft. I bet it chewed up the seal, allowing water and soap into the bearing.

Can you show us a photo of the bearing / seal / rear tub opening for the bearing from the inside?

Thanks!
Andrew


Post# 475496 , Reply# 65   11/16/2010 at 12:38 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Andrew:
Those pictures are close to next in line. I first need to post some pictures of the base of the shaft, where it meets the spider. I've just ran out of time for now.


Post# 475501 , Reply# 66   11/16/2010 at 12:57 (1,438 days old) by vacfanatic (Omaha, NE)        
Thanks :-)

vacfanatic's profile picture
I understand - I've created a few threads before on both AW and VL, it can take some time to do.

Suggestion for Robert :-)

Bulk photo uploader / eliminate the 30 second requirement between posts now that we can edit / delete our post if it was duplicated in error.

Thanks!
Andrew


Post# 475572 , Reply# 67   11/16/2010 at 17:58 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Soft metal...if you can call it metal.

Post# 475574 , Reply# 68   11/16/2010 at 18:00 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

busted threads!

Post# 475575 , Reply# 69   11/16/2010 at 18:02 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

.

Post# 475576 , Reply# 70   11/16/2010 at 18:05 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Shaft

Post# 475578 , Reply# 71   11/16/2010 at 18:08 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Rust around the base.

Post# 475579 , Reply# 72   11/16/2010 at 18:10 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The spider is actually in very bad shape. There is nothing between the SS cylinder and the spider-> bad design!!

Post# 475581 , Reply# 73   11/16/2010 at 18:12 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

eaten alive!

Post# 475583 , Reply# 74   11/16/2010 at 18:14 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Yuk!

Post# 475585 , Reply# 75   11/16/2010 at 18:16 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

cylinder removed->rear part of outer tub.

Post# 475586 , Reply# 76   11/16/2010 at 18:18 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The seal is very simple, just pry out with a screw driver-> pops right out!

Post# 475589 , Reply# 77   11/16/2010 at 18:23 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

inner bearing-> you can either get these from the manufacture if you want to pay more, or you can get them at a bearing shop.

bearing is: 6305-zz, use 6305-2RS I could not find any SS bearings for this size. $8 at bearing shop $18 from sears


Post# 475591 , Reply# 78   11/16/2010 at 18:30 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Correction! inner bearing is 6306-z use 6306-2RS SORRY! The rear bearing is 6305-z use 6305-2RS.

You can get both bearings for ~$8-$10.


Post# 475593 , Reply# 79   11/16/2010 at 18:38 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

You can use a hammer and pipe to remove the bearings->be sure that the outer diameter of the pipe meets the outer diameter of the inner race of which ever bearing you intend to remove. I use the clothes basket from a calypso machine to hold the rear of the outer tub.

Post# 475594 , Reply# 80   11/16/2010 at 18:40 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

rear bearing

Post# 475595 , Reply# 81   11/16/2010 at 18:41 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

both bearings

Post# 475597 , Reply# 82   11/16/2010 at 18:44 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

bearings removed

Post# 475598 , Reply# 83   11/16/2010 at 18:46 (1,438 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Now have to wait until the parts get here.

Post# 475686 , Reply# 84   11/16/2010 at 23:15 (1,438 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)        
Good Lord!

volvoguy87's profile picture
This is pathetic! I remember how expen$ive those were. I can't believe a machine would be this trashed after such a short life, yet here's the proof right in front of us. The Neptune looked far more solidly built and easier to service to boot. Would you ever do this repair again on another LG of the same or a similar model?

There are no words to sufficiently express my disappointment at the quality of this washer's materials, construction, or non-service friendly design.

Thanks for documenting this (and the Neptune too),
Dave


Post# 475750 , Reply# 85   11/17/2010 at 09:02 (1,438 days old) by vacfanatic (Omaha, NE)        
Very sad

vacfanatic's profile picture
I'm glad I got off of the LG bandwagon when I did and traded up for my Mieles.

Now I feel guilty for selling my LG's to the people that I did!

For reference, link below is of Thread # 30834 showing the Miele spider durability. Miele is one of the few brands that would last in my opinion.

Andrew


CLICK HERE TO GO TO vacfanatic's LINK




This post was last edited 11/17/2010 at 12:04
Post# 475753 , Reply# 86   11/17/2010 at 09:34 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Well...while I wait for parts->time to explore other regions of the machine. There are flaws elsewhere. So far the Neptune repair was a walk in the park. Things come apart nicely, no soft metal, etc. This one is more like walking through the swamp part of the Florida Everglades! Be ware of the snapping turtles!

Post# 475945 , Reply# 87   11/17/2010 at 20:41 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The spider and bolt arrived.

Post# 475948 , Reply# 88   11/17/2010 at 20:42 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

bolt p/n:

Post# 475950 , Reply# 89   11/17/2010 at 20:44 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Spider p/n

Post# 475951 , Reply# 90   11/17/2010 at 20:45 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Spider is cast Aluminum

Post# 475952 , Reply# 91   11/17/2010 at 20:46 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Shaft

Post# 475953 , Reply# 92   11/17/2010 at 20:47 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

other side

Post# 475955 , Reply# 93   11/17/2010 at 20:50 (1,437 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Before the new spider is attached-> need to change the design a bit. Still waiting for bearings.

Post# 475966 , Reply# 94   11/17/2010 at 21:32 (1,437 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts)        

nmassman44's profile picture
Well for one thing that was fast getting the parts that you needed to fix that washer. 2nd OMG the corrosion on that spider is unbelievable. I am wonder what they used for detergent and if they used chlorine bleach. I have to ask...the front counterweights are they cast iron? I always thought that Miele had used cast iron exclusively for its counterweights. Very interesting repair job...

Post# 475967 , Reply# 95   11/17/2010 at 21:34 (1,437 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts)        

nmassman44's profile picture
Oh before I forget...is there a way you could put that liquid plastic on the spider to seal it or seal it in some way to prevent a repeat of the corrosion...

Post# 475968 , Reply# 96   11/17/2010 at 21:35 (1,437 days old) by vacfanatic (Omaha, NE)        
Proposed Design Change

vacfanatic's profile picture
What changes do you have planned on the design? What I don't understand is why the hell manufacturers make spiders out of aluminum. They sport stainless steel drums, offer 10 year warranties on the motors (LG), yet they make the spiders out of materials that corrode.

When I was a kid, the Kirby dealer that we bought or Kirby G3 from came back and brought me 6 or 7 old trade in Kirbys. Long story short, I ended up throwing some of them in the irrigation ditch behind our house, which they were 8 feet under water all summer long. That fall, I went and fished them out. The aluminum was totally corroded, pitted, and crumbling in spots just like the pictures of this spider. Aluminum is clearly not a good choice for what is truely one of the core components of a front load washing machine.

Blows my mind!

Andrew


Post# 475970 , Reply# 97   11/17/2010 at 21:41 (1,437 days old) by vacfanatic (Omaha, NE)        
Spider Sealer

vacfanatic's profile picture
Mike,

Good idea on sealing the spider - probably wouldn't be able to keep all of the water off the spider due to cracks, wear etc, but it might keep the spider from getting to the dire state this one was in.

One thing I guess we should keep in mind is we have no idea how this machine was used previously - maybe the owner left the door shut on it and used the wrong detergent, caustic chemicals, etc.

Unless this washer has several thousands of hours of operation, the spider and bearings should not have gone out this fast. I'd bet money the spider corrision greately sped up the seal failure, in turn ruining the bearings.

Maybe seal the spider with about 5 coats of roll on truck bedliner. :)

Andrew


Post# 476009 , Reply# 98   11/18/2010 at 02:08 (1,437 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Wow

mark_wpduet's profile picture
As I was scrolling down the pictures, I was just waiting to see as you tore that machine apart what the spider would look like, cuz I knew it was going to be made out of aluminum. I think we would all be hard pressed to find a front load washer that doesn't make its spiders out of aluminum. I think they all do, with the exception of Miele or SQ......(Not sure about those).........But it is a mystery about those spiders; some people have front load washers with spiders made out of aluminum that are twelve years old and still working fine. I don't get it. I shudder to think what the spider in my six year old Duet must look like.

Post# 476042 , Reply# 99   11/18/2010 at 08:36 (1,437 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Perfect thread illustrating how LG is all about bling-bling, color screens, end-of-cycle tunes etc. but not so much about quality.

I recently saw a documentary on TV that stated that the average Korean consumer replaces his cell phone after one or two years because its technology and features are "old" or simply because it's no longer in vogue. LG is probably trying to get the American consumer to replace their washers for the same reasons AND at the same pace... Too bad.


Post# 476052 , Reply# 100   11/18/2010 at 09:46 (1,436 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
Thank you extremely much

bajaespuma's profile picture
As a satisfied LG owner, I'm saving this entire thread, not only because it's going to be very useful someday, but as an appliance nut, I really appreciate being able to see all the innards.

Post# 476130 , Reply# 101   11/18/2010 at 15:08 (1,436 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I think the reason for the extreme corrosion is that the spider is directly attached to the stainless steel cylinder. There is nothing like plastic or spacers between the two metals.

Post# 476138 , Reply# 102   11/18/2010 at 16:35 (1,436 days old) by vivalalavatrice (Italy)        
Neither I could have been so good at doing this

vivalalavatrice's profile picture
And it's almost my daily work!
Very good job on a Tromm.

BYE
Diomede


Post# 476192 , Reply# 103   11/18/2010 at 21:29 (1,436 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Ken(bajaespuma):
I really hope you don't become offended by what I have to say about these machines. Since there is at least one person who has posted, that somehow likes these machines(don't know why), I'll take it down a notch when I post my final opinion(after Horsey gets put back together).

The purpose of this topic is to illustrate what has to be done to get a machine such as this one properly working again. Since I have not seen a guide on replacing bearings in a LG on the internet, I create one. Also since there are so many flaws-> I will point them out, that way if someone wants to actually do some research before spending 1arm + 1leg + 1pinky on a machine that has an average life of 3-5 years, the info is here. Also since I have taken the time dissect something that I don't even think deserves to be called a washing machine-> might as well have some fun with it. Horsey reeks of Korean cheapness->time for him to be repaired/revised properly.


Post# 476214 , Reply# 104   11/18/2010 at 23:33 (1,436 days old) by powerfin64 (Yakima, Washington)        
I too, am a LG owner...

powerfin64's profile picture
I've been reading all the post's on this thread, and yes I am very happy with my LG washer(model WM2050CW)which is just now 7 months old, and come to find out, its been discontinued and replaced with Model WM2140CW.(with 6 motion wash action)
It shocks me beyond belief how in just the 4-5 years what problems arose and corrosion did such damage!
Thank you for all the instructional posts on what your doing to get this LG back to life again.

Rich


Post# 476238 , Reply# 105   11/19/2010 at 03:58 (1,436 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I wonder if LG made any improvement to this design since the introduction of 6-Motion. One would hope they made everything a little more durable with all this rocking and shaking during the wash cycle.

This is from Kenmore:


Post# 476257 , Reply# 106   11/19/2010 at 07:45 (1,436 days old) by macboy91si (Lexington, KY)        
Sometimes Truth Hurts

macboy91si's profile picture
I enjoy your posts about this, and the ranting about Korean cheapness. Having owned a Hyundai and a Chevy Aveo as of recent I can expensively vouch that most products from that region look much nicer than they are. The LG washer you have is shocking, and I also can't see how anyone would stand behind it. That said, people like things for their own reasons and it's impossible to pry them off of it. Take aircooled VW's. The cars have a reputation of bursting into flames because of a brass fuel inlet nipple that's merely PRESSED into the soft aluminum carburetor top. I'll give you 2 guesses what happens after a few years of vibration with that setup and a red hot engine below the fuel line. Still people love them, with all of their valve adjustments and other oddities. While I don't think this is quite the same, logic would suggest that people would run far away, but logic is not always the holding factor there. I think VW's are VERY neat cars, but I'd probably never actually own one. I don't think you should tone it down at all, as the WORN OUT saying goes from Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does", I think if a company puts out a crappy product, the bashing that ensues is par for the course. At least this was an inexpensive machine for you and not a $15000 car that you realized that they made the transmission out of dog food...

Sometimes I'm a bitter person...

-Tim


Post# 476356 , Reply# 107   11/19/2010 at 18:26 (1,435 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Tim:
HAHAHA!! "dog food" that's a good one! I would have been a little more direct and used dog + a 4 letter word that begins with s and ends with t. Have you found another source for Milnors or Thumpers yet? I'm still looking for that 35-50LB Milnor!

Good news:
The bearings have arrived.
Mike, Vacfanatic: you do have a good idea->putting a coating on the spider->I will look into that, maybe some sort of expoxy, or something->Thanks for the suggestion.


Post# 476357 , Reply# 108   11/19/2010 at 18:33 (1,435 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Alexander(logixx)
I surely hope they did, but something tells me not so. There's only one way to see->find one on CL for cheap-> bust it open. I'll keep my eye out-> I did see a new Samsung FL on there several weeks ago->it had issues as well.


Post# 476389 , Reply# 109   11/19/2010 at 23:40 (1,435 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

that spider is nasty!,probably cast from molten beer cans...
When i did a bearing repair on a 1998 frigilux,it's spider
was still in pretty good shape with just a little pitting
near the center.
That direct drive motor is interesting-i have built a few
experimental wind generators for kicks and that LG's motor
looks like almost a ready-made small wind generator stator
and magnet rotor-if i find one of these at the dump i will
certainly grab the motor!


Post# 476489 , Reply# 110   11/20/2010 at 14:49 (1,434 days old) by electron1100 (England)        
LG machines

electron1100's profile picture
Hi from across the pond, thanks for posting these pictures of this machine.

I work at re-cyling centre and every LG machine that has come in has been dumped because of bearing failure, like you i tend think that these glitterboxes are cheaply made and not repairman freindly at all.

Though the same can be said of many modern machines not just LG.

So much emphasis is placed on superflous features and technology as if to guide prospective purchasers away from issues as reliability and build qaulity.

It is a joke however that LG make such a big thing about how there machines balance loads so well for spinning and yet they suffer from bearing seal failure and bearings and in some cases this then takes out the motor aswell

It is good that you have taken the trouble to show at least one very aggressive companies machine in the light of day.

Gary


Post# 476493 , Reply# 111   11/20/2010 at 14:59 (1,434 days old) by electron1100 (England)        
The Dual 701 turntable

electron1100's profile picture
@ whirlcool

Hi I remember the Dual 701 direct drive turntables ;-) beautifully built decks came with a Shure V15 mk3 cartridge as standard over here.

Duals claim to fame with their direct drive motor was that it did not cog as it rotated due to Hall Effect transistors being used to switch the current between coils smoothly so the rotor then rotated smoothly rather than cogging as it rotated which other designs did, though this was never a problem in reality as long as a suitably heavy platter was used to iron out the power pulses.

Hitachi sort of copied the idea later on in the 1970s with what they called "Unitorque"

Innovation eh ;-)


Post# 476503 , Reply# 112   11/20/2010 at 16:38 (1,434 days old) by DADoES ( )        

dadoes's profile picture
 
There is a cottage industry for converting F&P SmartDrive motors to wind generators.  Many instructional web sites and even videos on YouTube.


Post# 476889 , Reply# 113   11/22/2010 at 09:11 (1,433 days old) by amyswasher (fort stockton tx)        
I think the motors are mini generators!

A person can unplug a LG washer and spin the tub, and the thing will turn on. I found that out by accident one day checking the drum for lost socks. Dang near scared the youknowwhat out of me. Now my kids think it fun to do(mommy spin the tub). I guess pushing the power button is to easy. Thanks for posting this thread. I have hard water, so I am looking at three years down the road(if I'm lucky). I bought a Geek Squad five year warranty with mine, I am waiting for them to say: "We have no record of you purchasing a buyer protection agreement with us, we don't know you, so stop calling us." So far I'm happy with it.

Post# 476950 , Reply# 114   11/22/2010 at 14:16 (1,432 days old) by DADoES ( )        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Amy, F&P machines with locking lids use the generator effect to keep the electronics and lid-lock active until the basket coasts to a stop when a power failure occurs during spin.


Post# 477154 , Reply# 115   11/23/2010 at 20:30 (1,431 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

ok...I'm not so sure what the Brushless DC PWM has to do with replacing the bearings in this machine. -> MOVING ON!!

I'm using Nachi bearings this time.


Post# 477155 , Reply# 116   11/23/2010 at 20:31 (1,431 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

.

Post# 477156 , Reply# 117   11/23/2010 at 20:49 (1,431 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Seal is very simple and cheap to buy. After discussing this machine with a good friend, we have solved the mystery for the reason as to the excessive corrosion of the spider. While the Aluminum spider being directly connected to the SS cylinder does not help the situation, there is a interesting effect that has taken place was a result of using the design of this machine. In other words, just isolating the spider from the SS will not solve the problem. What I have to do to the spider is a very messy, nasty, toxic process->now have to wait until additional supplies come in. I really HATE HORSEY!!!

Post# 477160 , Reply# 118   11/23/2010 at 21:34 (1,431 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

Are you going to alodyne the spider?

Post# 477463 , Reply# 119   11/25/2010 at 11:49 (1,429 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Going back to the start: The leak killed the sensor if I interpret the pictures correctly. Did the sensor have to be in that position, vulnerable to water from a bearing failure leak or was that just the cheap way to do it? Actually what's a failed sensor when you have such catastrophic failure of principal metal pieces?

In the early 60s, Westinghouse ran an ad campaign where the owner of a WH slant front washer was holding out her apron and catching money that was coming out of the machine. The ad stressed the economics of using the machine; the savings in water and detergent. The final sentence was a kicker: Because she saved so much, she could afford a new washer every 5 years. That was the point at which the warranty on the tub drive components expired. If the machine had been used hard and not really well cared for, it might be showing signs of rust in the door area and elsewhere so it might be a candidate for replacement. It might jolt people paying so much for these new machines to be told that you would save so much money in 5 years of use, you could afford a new machine when it failed. I don't know the comparrison of costs today versus the early 60s.

I Googled alodyne. That is some process. I think a treatment that alters the surface of the aluminum would have a better chance of lasting. Any coating like epoxy could develop spot failures that could actually trap and hold moisture against the metal, hastening what you are trying to prevent.

Thank you for this educational post. I'm glad my newer machines are Mieles.


Post# 477549 , Reply# 120   11/25/2010 at 21:50 (1,429 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The cylinder has issues too. Is it me or does this seem like its not totally SS

Post# 477553 , Reply# 121   11/25/2010 at 21:59 (1,429 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The SS on my Primus is better than this!!


Yes, I looked at alodyne, but the process would not take care of isolating the spider from conducting current. Coal Tar Epoxy does, but it won't last forever, and use more than one coat.

Either way Korean horsesh#t + alodyne or Korean horsesh%t + coal Tar epoxy still gives you some sort of horsesh&t. There is no easy way of getting around it except using decent construction materials and DESIGN!


Post# 477557 , Reply# 122   11/25/2010 at 22:27 (1,429 days old) by wiskybill (Canton, Ohio)        
thinking out loud......

Would it be possible to have the spider coated like a dishwasher rack?
Might also serve to isolate it from the drum.


Post# 477601 , Reply# 123   11/26/2010 at 05:15 (1,429 days old) by dj-gabriele (Bologna (ITALY))        

Gosh!
I already didn't like LG for whitegoods but after seeing those photos I'm never going to even consider the most remote idea of getting a machine of theirs!

Thank you very much for this fantastic contribution!


Post# 477882 , Reply# 124   11/27/2010 at 14:24 (1,427 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Gabriele:
Run!! Run while you can. Horsey LGs will attempt to back kick you and defecate on the very floor that it sits on. Don't stand too close it might give you rabies or something. Now that I'm looking at the front of him again, He looks kinda crazy.


Post# 477886 , Reply# 125   11/27/2010 at 14:54 (1,427 days old) by fordtech ()        

That is definitely the rustiest stainless I think I have seen unless that is just rust colored washer poop on it..

Post# 478372 , Reply# 126   11/29/2010 at 17:25 (1,425 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

The stainless drum is probably a low grade stainless with the minimum about of chromium to be classified as a stainless steel. 409 is like this and used for mufflers. 409 is 10.5 to 11.7 percent Chromium, 430 is 16 to 18 percent and costs more but looks better and is used with range hoods. Both are magnetic.

Post# 478378 , Reply# 127   11/29/2010 at 18:21 (1,425 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

It seems all the modern front loaders today use a stainless basket and a cast aluminum spider.

In another thread somebody shows a Miele front loader with a spider that looks non cast; or maybe it is not aluminum.

The old 1960's through early 1990's 3 belt westy has just a big steel hub where a left handed 25mm diameter shaft #5303261165 is held with two 6205 bearings and one seal. This type of machine was sold by white westinghouse, Gibson, Frigidaire, Sears/Kelvinator, Tappan etc.

The same steel hub design morphed to the single belt model with variable speed motor. It uses the same rubber boot, deflector ring, but different pump.

There us not really a household new washer today that does not have the aluminum spider design.

The rotating basket is in BLUE in the 1976 WWH brochure. The sketch has some errors, the back two ribs should be in purple and are the fixed outer tub. The oval pulley is in yellow it makes the basket rotate about 54 to 57 rpm. The back blue pulley is at the back end of the shaft and is the spin cycle pulley of about 550 rpm.

Again every FL today for the home seems to have an aluminum spider with as stainless basket and life seems to be all over the place.

It is probably a mix of bleach; water type, number of cycles, luck of the draw.

Type in google "aluminum spider washer corrosion" and LG is mentioned less than other brand names


Post# 478568 , Reply# 128   11/30/2010 at 19:17 (1,424 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

If you pay high price for garbage that can't even last 5 years with normal use, I don't think luck of the draw has anything to do with it. I think LG must have used the lowest grade of materials possible. Cast Aluminum should not corrode this badly. Probably also has to do with poor preparation of the aluminum for the environment that it would be subjected to, not to mention that it is directly attached to the SS with nothing isolating the metals from one another. Horsey = LG = FAIL!

Post# 478585 , Reply# 129   11/30/2010 at 20:31 (1,424 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

The Aluminum spider directly attached to a SS drum is not just LG's method. It is used many GE, Kenmore, Frigidaire, Wascomat, Electrolux front loaders too. It is over a 10 year old design.




The web is full of Aluminum Spider failures with modern FL washers; this issue is 7 to 10 years old already.

The real question is what if any FL modern washers do not have spider issues!





At least with LG one can buy the spider as a separate part for 80 bucks; the scam by the other brands was often you have to buy the entire drum with spider.





Thus the marketing guys sucker in folks with a long warranty period for the SS drum; but the less Noble Aluminum spider is the sacrificial anode that breaks and it is not under warranty.

In some of the non LG brands the SS drum with spider was often 400+ bucks years ago thus the washer was not worth fixing.




When one types in "front load spider" in Google; Kenmore, Sears and Frigidaire have boatloads of failures; LG takes several pages to find one. Even Whirlpool and Amana and Maytag get named too. If it is the same metal on metal design LG's should fail too; like the one you just fixed. It might be that less LG's are out there; and they are newer too.




The old Neptune FL's have a plastic washer. Maybe these guys did not cheat in Chemistry class?



In my household stuff that when under salt water in Katrina; stuff with two different metals had one disappear in a few days to weeks.

With a ferric type SS drum and a cast Aluminum spider; the aluminum SHOULD corrode when placed in a solution. Any engineer knew this 100 years ago.

If one shows this to an engineer 100 years ago they might place a sacrificial Zinc piece to "save" the Alumimum; but that would involve somebody who has some common sense and spending an extra 2 dollars.



The whole issue of corroded aluminum spiders hit the web over 7 years ago; after issues with the new FL washers flaws surfaced. With some of the Sear Kenmore FL's the drum has a screw that pierces the outer plastic drum when the spider fails. Thus not only do you have to buy the SS drum and spider; you have to buy a new tub too. Thus the machine goes into a landfill.



There is a lot of variability in how long the newer home FL washers last. There are folks with some dying in 2 years with corroded spiders and some still running after 10 years.




Cast Aluminum is very poor with corrosion; it is porous thus it has huge surface area exposed to the liquid. One has the huge unknown of folks water hardness, if and how much bleach, detergent type; whether the door was left open; temperature; even the basics like the number of loads washed.



There are so many unknowns that spider failures are all over the place. There are folks with modern FL washers who use them normally with no massive failures in 7 years; with the same models that are all over Google as dying in a few years with some folks.



With the 1976 WWH 3 belt FL washer; it's front 6205 bearing's cage broke in 2005; thus I rebiult it. It ran 29 years with just pump and one clutch spring replaced. On another thread on this site somebody says they rust out in a few years; another says they break down a lot.



Thus even with old washers one has a wide range of variability in lives and problems.


Post# 478669 , Reply# 130   12/1/2010 at 09:58 (1,423 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

3beltwesty:
Did you read my post above? Please tell me what you think this thread is about.


Post# 478691 , Reply# 131   12/1/2010 at 11:51 (1,423 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

I read the thread.

You found one LG washer that has bad bearings and corrosion but have concluded that:

"If you pay high price for garbage that can't even last 5 years with normal use, I don't think luck of the draw has anything to do with it. I think LG must have used the lowest grade of materials possible. Cast Aluminum should not corrode this badly. Probably also has to do with poor preparation of the aluminum for the environment that it would be subjected to, not to mention that it is directly attached to the SS with nothing isolating the metals from one another. Horsey = LG = FAIL!"

Thus the question is how do you feel about GE/Kenmore FL washers that failed in shorter time periods like 2 to 4 years?

These have been documented on the web 100 times more than LG's; but you ignore them and blast LG.

A lay reader will read your bias and conclude that LG is worse than other brands that have many orders of magnitude more failures than LG's. The poor consumer has little to go by. There are really few LG failures documented on the web like yours; and boatloads with other brands.




The web is full of all the other FL brands that have corroded Aluminum spiders too; and many are shorter than your 5 year comment. The other brands have spider's failing in sometimes 3 to 4 years; thus your LG failure is just in line with the rest of the pack of Aluminum spiders failing.


All the consumer brands of FL washers use an Aluminum spider design; thus your LG failure is right in line with the whole pack of FL washers and nothing new to FL washers.

It is great you documented the repair with such nice comments and detailed images.

By the tone of your comment:

"I don't think luck of the draw has anything to do with it. I think LG must have used the lowest grade of materials possible."

You feel LG has poor Aluminum versus the rash of GE/Kenmore FL washer's Aluminum spider failures that are all over the web.

Thus I am puzzled because I have taken part GE/Kenmores that died in a few years and the spider was totally gone compared to your LG in the photos.

Repairclinic 8 years ago had few SS drums and spiders for modern FL washers. Today all the brands have SS drums and Aluminum spiders as spare parts; since the spider does fail in about all models.

Look at that SS drum to Aluminum spider on about all brands and they are directly connected; and not isolated like the old Neptunes. This sets up that the Aluminum will corrode. LG is not alone in this matter. Connecting the SS drum to the Aluminum spider seems like the most common method with modern FL's.


There is a huge variability to these spider failures. A friend has a Whirlpool Duet from 2001 and all it has required is a pump. Another one locally broke its spider after 4 years. It was bought after Katrina. Fatigue and corrosion are like this.






Here I am not sure that LG is really worse than other FL washers since there are not many well documented like yours.

In the other brands the failed FL washers spider looked link the one in the link below

With the other non brands there are many more data points; BUT it is only the folks that have ones fail that document them.

What basis do you have that the LG design is worse than all the other consumer FL washers? You have one sample and the web has hundreds of the other brands that fail like this:


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 478698 , Reply# 132   12/1/2010 at 12:10 (1,423 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

Hey; deeply appreciate your excellent documentation of the LG washer.

I just ponder if folks feel that the LG is really worse than other brands; like this typical FL spider failure below:

An associate had one like this six years ago ; at that time one could only buy the SS drum and spider as an assembly and it was about 400 bucks thus the FL got scrapped. Like this guys video the drum's screw pierced the tub.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 478701 , Reply# 133   12/1/2010 at 12:34 (1,423 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Looks like you don't fully understand what this thread is about. Not only is this thread about the repair process, and what a pain it is to work on these, it is also about the use of cheap construction materials in LG machines. This thread is ONLY about LG machines. This thread has nothing to do with other brands. Yes, I know about the Kenmores, the Duets, the GE's the Frigi's having spider failures and that you have to buy both the spider and the cylinder. Yes there is lots of info on the web about those, but little info about these, let alone how to tear one down. Reasons why the spider failed, we can go on and on about. What really annoys me off about the whole situation is that you cannot even get the machine apart without damaging or ruining something. Yes, most modern FL machines do use spiders, with the exception of Speed Queen commercial home use FL machines.

Post# 478731 , Reply# 134   12/1/2010 at 15:37 (1,423 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

To replace the two bearings and seal on any old or new FL washer is normally a lot of labor; 1/2 days work or more.

Is there any FL you have replaced that involved little labor compared to an LG?

The construction and materials used is very similar on many modern FL washers; thus saying LG is cheap when it uses the same SS drum and same Aluminum spider; same tub material sounds somewhat biased with no rational basis.

Most FL washers today use the same materials for the tub halves; drum and spiders.

From an engineering standpoint if you mentioned that LG used an XYZ alloy and Whirlpool used a ABC alloy for the spider; then there is a real basis for a bias.

From an engineering standpoint "cheap" is a very poor word since it has many different meanings. It means low cost to some; low quality to others,and both to yet another group too. Thus in actual engineering work this word is taboo.

A lay reader of this thread might read your comments about LG using "cheap materials" ; and guess wrongly that the other brands actually use anything better. By not wanting to mention the other brands you stack the deck against LG and prop up other brands with the same exact design and material flaws. Thus some comparing helps folks understand LG versus the others.

Most folks who read a thread like this ponder if the other brand uses a better design or better materials. The bulk of folks want a machine to last a long time and not require a major rebuild in 5 years.

I really see almost nothing in your images that makes a LG any "cheaper" in quality than all the other consumer/home grade FL brands being hawked; except that hokey screw. Most FL washers sold today in the USA are built like this; thus what specific items to LG are "cheap" compared to the others? I did see the hokey screw that got ruined!

Once the seal leaks the 52100 bearing material rusts to the shaft and is often very stubborn to remove. With some I have had to use PB Nut blaster and also Kano Kroil penetrating fluids; do a mess of tapping and wait. It is a mess.


Kroil works better than PB nutblaster; worlds better than WD40 to unstuck stubborn metal to metal parts. I am not sure it if is good around all plastics; thus use caution.

With some Alum spider to SS drums I have seen where one has to grind off the bolts.

Here is an LG washer spider used in the UK; a kit with spider,seals, and bearings:




CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 478749 , Reply# 135   12/1/2010 at 17:13 (1,423 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

3beltwesty:
If you don't like my descriptions or terminology, YOU CAN KICK ROCKS!!! When I actually see repair and tear-down guides that YOU actually take the time and energy to carry out and POST to THIS site, then and ONLY then will I actually consider what you have to say. I AM FINISHED DISCUSSING ANY AND ALL MATTERS WITH YOU. Like I say LG = FAIL!!


Post# 478954 , Reply# 136   12/2/2010 at 11:48 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Prepare the spider:
I prepare the spider by covering the shaft and leaving just a little exposed at the base.


Post# 478955 , Reply# 137   12/2/2010 at 11:52 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Clean the metal. I use 150 git sand paper and sand the spider lightly.

Post# 478957 , Reply# 138   12/2/2010 at 11:57 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Next I apply degreaser to clean the metal from oils touching it, metal fragments, etc.

Post# 478961 , Reply# 139   12/2/2010 at 12:00 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Rinse really good with water, and let dry. I use a hair dryer to get the crevices.

Post# 478962 , Reply# 140   12/2/2010 at 12:05 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Follow the directions when using this stuff. Like I say above, it is some nasty stuff to get on the skin. Use gloves, protect yourself from it. Oh, and it does stink. The fumes WIll make you dizzy, so use in well ventilated area.

Post# 478966 , Reply# 141   12/2/2010 at 12:13 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Mix 4:1 ratio(base:activator). Will have to apply at least 2 coats.

Post# 478969 , Reply# 142   12/2/2010 at 12:54 (1,422 days old) by vacfanatic (Omaha, NE)        
Coal Tar Epoxy

vacfanatic's profile picture
Nice!!! I was thinking of truck bedliner, so your idea wasn't too far off! This should really protect this spider from the elements inside the washing drum it's exposed to.

Great idea!!!

Andrew


Post# 479023 , Reply# 143   12/2/2010 at 18:20 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Yes, bedliner could be another option, maybe even less expensive than Coal Tar Epoxy. Do you know whether or not it is conductive? Also where would you get it?

Post# 479029 , Reply# 144   12/2/2010 at 18:42 (1,422 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

You could try a can of conformal coat. It sprays on and it's not as nasty as the alodyne. It goes on thick and it's designed to exclude moisture. It's used a lot for protecting marine electronics. The only thing is, it may effect the balance a bit.

Post# 479138 , Reply# 145   12/3/2010 at 05:51 (1,422 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I hope the epoxy does not give off an odor when exposed to hot water and thus make the clothes stinky. I also hope that after all of your work the rest of the machine holds up and that the bearing/spider failure was not just the first float in the disaster parade.

Post# 479139 , Reply# 146   12/3/2010 at 06:06 (1,422 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There are actually some other things that I am concerned about. They are design flaws, one of the issues is so far along, that the damage is done and it is just a matter of time when the part will fail. The LG folks is freakin geniuses! I'll get to those OTHER issues after I put the machine back together.

After the second coat of Epoxy is applied, must allow for at least 7 days for it to fully cure->will apply first coat to cylinder later today.


Post# 479200 , Reply# 147   12/3/2010 at 12:49 (1,421 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Applied the second coat to the spider today->harder to apply as it is difficult to determine what has the second coat applied to it with out touching the spider. The spider is some-what heavier. The epoxy will be applied to the cylinder as well. The region where the spider mounts to the cylinder has to be sanded and cleaned. Several spots required a lot more sanding than others->apply degreaser, then rinse really good, then dry. This is the cylinder prepared for the epoxy.

Post# 479201 , Reply# 148   12/3/2010 at 12:51 (1,421 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

first coat applied

Post# 479222 , Reply# 149   12/3/2010 at 15:56 (1,421 days old) by fordtech ()        

Ack! That reminds me of Permatex Aviation gasget sealant.. sticky and gooey to put on with a brush but makes a great seal.

Post# 479249 , Reply# 150   12/3/2010 at 19:53 (1,421 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts)        

nmassman44's profile picture
I dont think I would have gone that route with the coal tar epoxy but still interesting just the same. I am wondering with the added weight and thickness that the rear drum clearances are going to be a hell of alot tighter. I hope I am wrong but it would suck that you went thru all this trouble only to have the drum not turn freely when you reassemble it.
I also agree with Tom about possible smells with a hot wash. I can only imagine what this stuff smells like. Does it dry scent free?


Post# 479251 , Reply# 151   12/3/2010 at 20:09 (1,421 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

nmassman44:
What would you have done? What are your thoughts? Is that cat posing for the camera?

fordtech:
That epoxy reminds me of wild E coyote cartoons and that black stuff in cans labeled ACME.


Post# 479257 , Reply# 152   12/3/2010 at 21:12 (1,421 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

Supremewhirpol ;


****Re Tomturbomatics's comment off :

"I hope the epoxy does not give off an odor when exposed to hot water and thus make the clothes stinky."


Here there was some odor when I epoxy coated part of the spin basket 4 years ago:

Here I coated the old steel/porcelain spin basket on my 1976 Westinghouse LT570 3 belt frontloader back in 2006 when I rebuilt the machine. The basket was pulled out because the front 6205 bearing's cage broke . The machine still worked but made a mess of noise. For a rebuild I used two new stainless 6205 bearings and a new Frigidaire seal.

The 29 year old basket/drum had some rust spots on my LT570; it was cleaned off with great care and cleaned with MEK; alcohol, etc. Since paint prep is key; I spent several days making sure all the old crud and soap was gone.


The basket was coated with high temp 2 part industrial grade epoxy paint used in the chemical industry for tanks that cost about 60 bucks per gallon. It was cured with heat lamps and later in the sun.

The basket was about 2 months dried when the machine was first used. One could get a hint of PAINT SMELL with hot loads of wash for awhile; then I did not notice it anymore. The first few washes were the worst of course. Any smell was gone after being in the dryer.

If this washer is for a customer; my advice is to wash enough hot loads until there is no smell. Otherwise a picky person that is sensitive might complain.

After 4 years of regular usage here one gets pieces of the paint; ie paint chips about 1/2 the size of a dime or penny in ones wash at times. Thus the toil of the many washer loads has caused some of the paint to come off. This is with a machine that spins at about 540 rpm tops.

The old 3 belt Westy is very tolerant of crud in its big pump; it will pass a ball about 8 to 10mm in size.

After 4 years of usage the pump was making more noise; like it had some stuff in it. When going into the pumps prefilter the sump guard; it had about 1/4 cup worth of epoxy paint chips. To get at the sump filter grate one goes through the basket's removed vane.

After discovering my machine was passing paint chips I worry about this undesolveable stuff clogging up the homes sewer pipes. Thus I have the drain hose passing through a screen window sized home made FILTER; to collect the few chips.

Stuff like paint; tar; RTV etc will not dissolve with drain cleaner. I mention all this because if that tar or epoxy comes off in pieces down the road; it can if enough add to clogs.

In researching what coating to use; about every paint or coating guru acted like it would not work at all; when my own fix seems to have worked better than expected.


The epoxy paint guru 4 years ago mentioned the possible failure mode of making some situations worse by coating them. ie stuff gets trapped between the coating and the based metal; and thus one can get accelerated corrosion.


**** So do you think that your plan will make the spider not touch the SS drum ie no metal to metal? ie is there a plan for a non metalic washer under the 6 bolts?

With the repair here the pieces of paint chips started to appear in the closes washing about 3.5 years after rebuild. At first I just found a few pieces in the dryers lint filter.


Once I found there was 1/4 cup worth of stuff in the sump guard of the washer; I had this sick feeling that maybe a lot more is down in the sewer that might cause a clog.

It is interesting to see somebody else coat FL drums too. With the job that was done here 4 years ago; I would have bought a new basket for the 1976 machine but could not find one.





Post# 479259 , Reply# 153   12/3/2010 at 21:26 (1,421 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
sacrificial anodes

Another idea would to be to use a sacrificial anode that is even less Noble than the Aluminum spider.

Thus one allows the sacrificial anode to dissolve away; and the spider is protected.

It would have to have enough raw mass to save the spider during the machines life.

Drawback is cost; will it leave crud on clothes; break in chunks and foul the seal; whatever.

Both Aluminum and Zinc are used on ships; water heaters etc.

The sacrificial anode would have to be less Nobal than Aluminum; maybe Zinc


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 479267 , Reply# 154   12/3/2010 at 22:08 (1,421 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

3beltwesty:

Oh...right...I forget you are ME...looks like you've been in it forever in a day, back when the dinosaurs once roamed and stepped in their own poop! (HAHAHA)

I'm studying EE, CE, and LAS. What else do you recommend? You've got my attention now.


Post# 479406 , Reply# 155   12/4/2010 at 17:27 (1,420 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

We have had success using regular Duron two part epoxy to coat areas where the porcelain failed. I guess I was spooked by the term "coal tar" epoxy knowing that coal tar is a carcinogen but not much else about it and was worried that it might have a powerful lingering odor.

Old style WH front loaders from the 60s spoiled me for most newer front loaders. The machines were very stable with the cast-iron tub weights. With the powerful pump with vanes that went to the walls of the pump chamber driven off the washer motor and its location right under the sump in the bottom of the outer tub, there was none of this suds and air-locking foolishness like in modern machines where you have a column of air between the pump and the tub. It was a shame that they did not spin between the two deep rinses, but the cycle modification seen in the Kenmore Dual Tumble washer took care of that. I also liked the spray tumble rinse after the wash to help dilute the detergent concentration in the load and knock down any suds that remained after the drain.


Post# 479427 , Reply# 156   12/4/2010 at 19:17 (1,420 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
any ideas on electrically isolating the alum from SS ?

Supremewhirpoland the group;

I wonder out loud if you could get away with some super thin non conductive washers to help electrically isolate the aluminum spider from the SS basket?

The washers ideally would be thin enough that mechanical tolerances would not be a problem; but thick enough to isolate the metal items.

Thus maybe some Mylar/polyester washers that are a few mils thick is a wild idea. Due to the washers heat and preload on the bolts; placing a non metal isolator has its risks. You do not want the basket to come loose; ie the bolts preload to back off too much due to mechanical creep. Thus the thinnest washer should be used if possible.


So is the SS drum tapped for the 6 bolts? The LG WM2277HW service manual really just shows the SS drum and spider not in any details.


The image in YUK!/reply 74 sort of looks like the SS drum has PEM nuts like; ie the nut part is part of the SS drum.


Post# 479439 , Reply# 157   12/4/2010 at 19:35 (1,420 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
LG's boot changed after Sept 2007; it has drain holes

With LG Front loaders; after about Sept 2007 the boot has drain holes.


for WM2277HW the old boot is #4986ER0004B;
the new boot is #4986ER0004F with drain holes.

If you google these two numbers one gets washers made by LG, Sears Kenmore He , Zenith.

Gee; we have Sears washer made by LG!


Post# 479441 , Reply# 158   12/4/2010 at 20:02 (1,420 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
old versus new boots

It looks like the New type boot has some extra stuff so it drains back into the tub. Thus the tube has a different front piece and hose to allows this water to drain back. Thus a new boot on a real old washer might require a pie pan on the laundry room floor; or this extra stuff. The C shaped lower counter weight on the newer design has a cutout this new drain hose. The newer tub cover is 3550ER0004A

Post# 479444 , Reply# 159   12/4/2010 at 20:29 (1,420 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
July 2006 LG was working on the new tub front for the new dr

The LG plot thickens.

Here is where LG was making first New tub fronts for the drainable new type boots back in July 2006.


That tub front number of 3550ER0004A has just one google hit; thus buying an after market one looks slim at best.


Post# 479449 , Reply# 160   12/4/2010 at 20:50 (1,420 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

So for this new boot I have to also replace the lower counter weight? For my purposes, that is beyond the scope of repairs that I plan to do to Horsey. If I happen to come across a Washer/Dryer machine, I probably would use an updated boot if one had not already been implemented.

Yes, there are 6 bolts, the bolts go through the spider, cylinder and into the baffles. Both bearings that I'm using are sealed, and require more torque. The spider and drum will also be heavier, which might throw off the load sensing and water level features.

I read either in the service manual, or some where that the water temp can get up to 167 deg_F, so expansion of the nonmetal washers could be an issue. I'll see what type of washers I can find.

3beltwesty:
Do you know of the best nonconducting material that washers are made of, that would expand the least? I'm wondering if I can use thin plastic between the bolts, cylinder and spider and not worry about thicker plastic washers. What do you think?

The spider and cylinder having proper clearance inside the outer drum is important.

Also:
Does anyone have an idea of what the capacity of this machine is as far as dry clothes weight? The cylinder is rated for 3.83 cu.ft. IEC I'm guessing some where around 16-18LB?


When you apply the epoxy, it does have a VERY strong odor, and so will what ever you applied it to. Some of the odor does go away after the epoxy has cured some.


Post# 479500 , Reply# 161   12/5/2010 at 02:10 (1,420 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

If you are trying to isolate the aluminum electrically from the stainless, wouldn't you need to put the bolts through some sort of sleeve in addition to the washers? the bolt passing through the aluminum and the stainless will still conduct.

This is a very interesting read. Seems like the engineers that design this stuff should be reading this...


Post# 479533 , Reply# 162   12/5/2010 at 08:58 (1,420 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        
My LG

My LG has this little hose :)

Post# 479685 , Reply# 163   12/5/2010 at 19:39 (1,419 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
electrically isolating the alum from SS and boots too

Supreme; re the isolation electrically.

This might seem crazy but I was thinking of 3 or 4 mil (thousands of an inch) Polyester; like old manual drafting mylar or what floppy discs use. Some film negatives are mylar; but not many. ie Kodak films that had an Estar base.

Thus you would have to use Matt's idea too of placing some Mylar pieces in the spider through holes, so the screws male threads do not touch the spider electrically.

I am not sure what diameter your 6 bolts are; maybe about 1/4 inch say 6 mm since metric? ; maybe 8mm?

With electrically isolating some stuff for experiments I have used homemade mylar washers. A hole punch can be used. Or one can place several pieces of mylar between two clamped boards; and one bores a hole through it. Lord there must be a few million dead floppies somewhere! Floppy discs are mylar, I use to work at several places that made drives.

The whole idea is to somehow electrically isolate the cast aluminum spider from the SS drum; but still have good bolt preload. (tension over the life of the product) .

You really do not want a Marshmellow in the bolts connection; but a thin non conductive barrier. Thin is bad if one has High Voltage; but one has only a volt or two. If too thin any sharp metal feature can with time puncture the barrier . This is better too because of mechanical creep, where things with tension or compression get a set.


A 8mm bolt that has a 4 mil mylar washer added and in 5 years the washer has mushed out to be only 3 mils thick only lost 1 mil in thickness. A torqued up bolt/screw is really a spring; it has a spring rate of K=A*E/L

K is in lbs per inch
A the screw/bolts cross sectional area
L is the length of the part bolted together
E is a material property; it is about 30 million for steel; 10 million for aluminum. Mylar is roughly 1/3 to 1/2 million.

base plastic grades are not that stiff, thus they often add glass fill to bump up the stiffness.


Thus cylinder head bolts are long and made of steel, the head gasket is thin because the material is not as stiff. One wants the bolts to be still in good tension even if the gasket gets a tad thinner with time; after many many hundreds of hot cold cycles. With a thicker plastic gasket or washer in the same design; the bolts preload will drop more.



Supreme; re the new type boot.

It looks like *IF* one placed a new type boot on the old machine, the water would go though the boots drain holes, I guess on ones floor.

Thus I think the reason LG changed to a new tub front is to make this water go back into the tub, thus no water on the floor. I really do not have a clue as how much water would go into a pie pan if one had the new boot on and older machine.

Thus I think a factory retrofit to an old machine has one using the new boot with holes; the new bypass hose; a new tub front with a port for the bypass hoses. Since the added bypass hose cannot go through the old balance weight; the new weight has a cut-out for the new hose. Thus any machine can use a new balance weigh; a newer machine with a bypass hose cannot use the old weight.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 480160 , Reply# 164   12/7/2010 at 17:14 (1,417 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There is also epoxy in the mounting holes of the spider. I can try to get some of that mylar in there, but will probably be a tight fit. I could put the mylar under the washers of the bolts and between the spider and the cylinder.

Post# 480580 , Reply# 165   12/9/2010 at 18:15 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to put the bearings in->rear tub cleaned of the nasty gunk.

Post# 480581 , Reply# 166   12/9/2010 at 18:18 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I use 100W light bulb to heat the area where the bearings sit. ~30 min is good enough.

Post# 480582 , Reply# 167   12/9/2010 at 18:25 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I use the old bearings to push in the new bearings. For the rear bearing, make sure the top side of the bearings is flush with the metal that the bearing sits in, or slightly inside.

Post# 480586 , Reply# 168   12/9/2010 at 18:35 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Make sure the top of the inner bearing is past the metal that surrounds it. The bearing regions have been fabricated so that when they are inserted, they cannot be pushed in too far. The inner bearing needs to clear the plastic, so that the seal can be installed properly.

Post# 480587 , Reply# 169   12/9/2010 at 18:38 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The old seal and new seal->new seal has different design

Post# 480589 , Reply# 170   12/9/2010 at 18:45 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

seal installed->vaseline applied to outer side of seal to seat better against plastic.

Post# 480592 , Reply# 171   12/9/2010 at 18:48 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Spider installed on cylinder->Have to wait until Saturday for water test.

Post# 480595 , Reply# 172   12/9/2010 at 18:54 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Insert the shaft of the spider into the rear inner tub->carefully. Install the motor into the back and check for proper clearance. The hub of the motor should fit all the way on the shaft->tighten the hub down with the bolt.

Post# 480596 , Reply# 173   12/9/2010 at 18:58 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Put the front outer tub on the rear inner tub->check for clearance. Give cylinder a spin->make sure there in no rubbing, and that the cylinder spins freely. ->The boot was actually the reason why this machine was stinking up my car!

Post# 480598 , Reply# 174   12/9/2010 at 19:05 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Don't forget to clean the rubber seal that holds the outer tub together. Since the tub unit is pretty much assembled, it has some weight to it->may require two people to insert into the cabinet and put the springs in the holders. Putting the boot and clamp on is a real pain. Remember to be gentle with the wires and connections.

Post# 480600 , Reply# 175   12/9/2010 at 19:08 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

OTHER ISSUES....

A BIG NO NO!!!


Post# 480603 , Reply# 176   12/9/2010 at 19:13 (1,415 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Components on the PCB can't dissipate heat properly because of the epoxy? that it is in, thus the electronic smell that I get-> NOT GOOD!

Post# 480628 , Reply# 177   12/9/2010 at 20:50 (1,415 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        

Looks like a super great job.

I spotted the voltohm meters leads in photo #171, hopefully the isolation will fix the aluminum to SS issue.

The seal on my old 1976 FL washer here was a total mess to get it in the metal bore, the hardest part of the job. I made a puller with washers to get it to go in square and still ruined the seal. Finally I got the 2nd one in, it is a press fit on mine.

Coating boards with epoxy is done sometime for tampering, mostly for protection. It makes the part more robust for mechanical abuse while building the unit, no parts get bent or broken.

*IF* designed properly, one has no parts that get real hot under this coating. Some of those connectors are right by capacitors and get broken when folks assemble the units.

*OR* the board design layout is hokey and surface moisture on the board screws up some servos and analog stuff.



A washing machine's seal design is rather non trivial. The old design might have been poor.

I posted a cool link on seal design for folks to see.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 480718 , Reply# 178   12/10/2010 at 07:18 (1,415 days old) by fordtech ()        

Are you sure you arent just smelling residual dust and contamination from the motor area where you did the sensor fix?

Looks like a magnificent job supremewhirlpol


Post# 480767 , Reply# 179   12/10/2010 at 12:44 (1,414 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

3beltwesty:
I noticed that the seals were different and that the area around the shaft on the spider different compared to the old spider as well. As a result I had to remove the epoxy around the shaft. My concern was that the uneven surface would cause the outer lip of the new seal to fail. Yes the cylinder is isolated from the spider, however there is one bolt that is not isolated from the spider, but is isolated from the cylinder. I probably should have ordered new baffles, as the threads are plastic. This is a first try->you learn and improve as you learn from your mistakes. Thanks for your help!! Interesting link you posted.


fordtech:
The smell does come from the board when the machine is running.



I did think about relocating the board and using a different enclosure, but I may do more damage to the PCB in the process. A replacement costs~$60->moderately cheap in cost to buy. I think for now I'll leave the cover of the PCB off and place shielding around the water valves. Since I have taken the cover off, the PCB does not get as hot.

If I have time, I just may test it today. Will post a video on YT.


Post# 480802 , Reply# 180   12/10/2010 at 18:06 (1,414 days old) by fordtech ()        

You would think they could put cooling fans on the PCB like computers, printers, etc have.

Post# 481256 , Reply# 181   12/12/2010 at 23:20 (1,412 days old) by PhotonPanda ()        

They could have put cooling fans, but that would make things more complex and more costly; fans fail remarkably quick too. I think a washing machine is still not complex enough that it requires forced air cooling for its compute power.

You'll notice that even the motor doesn't have separate cooling, but the cooling is built into the mechanism itself. The slots on the outer rotating hub direct air into the motor to cool it as it spins.

Embedded electronics are typically made with low power consumption and low heat output in mind, although there may be a part which puts out more heat. Just stick a suitable size heat sink on those parts and they'll be fine without fans. There are many parts which will stand up to a lot of heat before being in any danger of failing too. Unfortunately it doesn't mean you'll never smell them. :-D


Post# 481432 , Reply# 182   12/13/2010 at 15:19 (1,411 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The PCB in the picture is also the motor control unit. All the the power electronics in a motor control unit generate lots of heat. A properly designed motor control unit will either have a fan or a BIG heat sink to deal with all the heat. Since I have removed the cover, it doesn't really smell any more. I do notice a temperature change at the rear left side of the top. This is where the PCB is located.
Yes, A fan would be good, remember these machines are put together as cheaply as possible, so a fan would not added. They would probably rather that the part fail because of lack of proper heat dissipation. The person goes out sells another kidney to buy another crap machine! It makes the LG folks happy. I will probably add a fan, but given that some of the circuits on the PCB probably have tight tolerances for current amounts, adding a fan might not be very easy.


Post# 481437 , Reply# 183   12/13/2010 at 16:15 (1,411 days old) by fordtech ()        
Cooling fan

If you purchased a 110V electronics cooling fan you could wire it straight to the L1 power source. You can find them at Radio Shack if you have one near you or online.

Post# 481447 , Reply# 184   12/13/2010 at 16:54 (1,411 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Getting the actual fan is not the problem. I have tons of fans of different sizes, voltages, CFM output, etc. I have both sleeve and ball bearing fans, standard PC fans, server grade fans, industrial fans, and special application fans. I have 48VDC,24VDC,12VDC, 5VDC, 3.3VDC, 110VAC, 220VAC, 208VAC, 27VAC 3phase Squarewave fans, AC tubeaxial fans, split-phase fans, PSC motor fans, shaded pole fans, 1 or 2 standard box fans and maybe a vintage fan or two.

I want the fan to shut off when the machine shuts off, so I have to find an appropriate place on the PCB to wire it. When selecting a place, I want the amount of current that the fan draws to not over load the circuit, and cause an electrical component to fail. I also don't want electrical noise from the fan to affect the function of other things on the PCB as well.


Post# 481454 , Reply# 185   12/13/2010 at 17:09 (1,411 days old) by fordtech ()        

Well you certainly have no shortage of resources.. LOL
Ill be anxiously waiting your solution.


Post# 481848 , Reply# 186   12/15/2010 at 11:55 (1,409 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Just wondering . . .

iheartmaytag's profile picture
With the epoxy you used to seal the spider and inner tub. Does it have an effect on the balance of the tub, or is the spider so far back that it doesn't matter?

After watching your repair, I am just glad that I resisted the man at Sear's that promised me everything but a pony ride if I would go LG. I am glad I kept saying no.



Post# 481865 , Reply# 187   12/15/2010 at 12:50 (1,409 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
LG not alone in aluminum spider failures

iheartmaytag; LG is not alone in having aluminum spiders that break.

Supremewhirlpol here documented very well this LG that had one fail.

The real question for a home consumer is what if any brands do not have an aluminum spider directly connected to a Stainless drum, about all the other brand do this too.

The web is full of tales, videos of the other brands that failed too; some of these web links of woes are long and old; ie over 8 years ago. One has failures with Whirlpool, GE, Maytag, Sears, Frigidaire, etc etc in aluminum spiders. With some brands one could not even replace the spider, one has to buy the entire stainless basket too, the entire assembly.

With an old Maytag Neptune, they had a plastic isolator.

Type in Google : aluminum spider washer corrosion

and read the mess of folks woes and LG has few hits, since they are newer to FL washers. ie the time bomb of field failures hit yet with a newer brand.

For most folks a major failure in a home washer like an aluminum spider breaking means the washer is junked. Look at all the stuff that has to be removed in supremes great images just to replace the spider. One has the raw cost of 2 new bearings, seal, spider and bolts a maybe 1/2 to 1 days labor. With some brand the loose drum has a screw that ruins the outer tub too. It is such a bad task that most repair places quote the required labor cost and folks freak out. It is major surgery, one has to take the whole machine apart. It has risk too for the repair chap, connectors can be brittle, plastics can break.

The average Joe or Jane who buys an Acme FL washer for 500 to 800 bucks will junk it when the spider breaks in 3 to 12 years.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 481876 , Reply# 188   12/15/2010 at 14:32 (1,409 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture
I knew that other machines also suffered spider failure, I just was not that impressed with the LG when I looked at them. Ditto for the Samsung.

I just felt better buying a nice American marketed, German built machine. And I bought an extended warranty.


Post# 481886 , Reply# 189   12/15/2010 at 15:21 (1,409 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
which "American marketed, German built machine" ?

which model number?

Post# 481888 , Reply# 190   12/15/2010 at 15:26 (1,409 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
which model number?

iheartmaytag's profile picture
Maytag 5000 series With Steam.

I had it and it's matching dryer for a year now. We are very happy together.


Post# 481916 , Reply# 191   12/15/2010 at 19:30 (1,409 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Of all the fans I have, these make the cut for this application. The Sprite(middle) (requires 48V) is OK. The Nidec is server grade and 3 wire (12V) and the NMB (biggest) provides the most air movement. It requires 48V as well, a good server grade fan too. For this application, it would be a WASTE to use the Nidec, especially since it has the connector that makes it convenient to plug into computer motherboards.

Post# 481917 , Reply# 192   12/15/2010 at 19:36 (1,409 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

It has 5 wires coming out of it. When opening the terminal block, the fan is actually a 3 wire fan. From the circuit board on the fan, there are wires red(+),white(sensor), and black(-) coming from the fan motor. Wires blue, Yellow, White come from the other side of the board. I only need to use wires red and black.

Post# 481919 , Reply# 193   12/15/2010 at 19:39 (1,409 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Works quite well! Now to install...

Post# 482020 , Reply# 194   12/16/2010 at 09:44 (1,408 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
Measured Power Consumption of entire LG washer while running

Here I measured with a wattmeter the input to a new LG WM2501HWA steam washer during a fast tumble and the spin cycle too.

This washer has the same spider part number, same stator as the LG washer in this thread, but is rated at 4.2 cuft instead of 4.0 cuft . The PCB is different since it has the steam settup.



DATA:

(1) The wash power while spinning at max wash rpm, say 50 rpm? speed was between 85 and 105 watts,

(2) spin/extract 380 to 420 watts.

(3) During the many mini back and forth cycles and *most* of the running time the power is real small like 5 to 22 watts while the drum is moving. It drops to 0 to 2 watts for a soak.


The total Kilowatt hours for the wash load was 0.14, this is lower than my 1976 3 belt Westinghouse which is about 0.22 to 0.25 KWhr. If one on the new LG uses the steam or heater and/or a long cycle the power consumed can double.


This was with a "kill a watt" meter connected between the washer and AC wall plug, with washer load of about a dozen T shirts. The spin setting was not the max but the default one setting below max, for the normal wash setting.



If the board driving the stator is marginal, it would probably fail during the spin cycle. Thus having the added fan somehow running when the spin cycle is running would be an idea.


Post# 484472 , Reply# 195   12/26/2010 at 22:29 (1,398 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

!!!BAD NEWS!!!

Start to get knocking noise when spinning cylinder. Bearings don't have any "play" them. Felt what I think is water between the motor plate and the rear of the outer tub where the rear shock is. Looks like water is draining from the weep hole behind the water seal!->not good. When the bearings fail(soon) I'll make a wind turbine out of this machine!


Post# 484784 , Reply# 196   12/28/2010 at 13:11 (1,396 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Videos of Horsey are up
prewash spin


CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 484785 , Reply# 197   12/28/2010 at 13:12 (1,396 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

main wash video

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 485816 , Reply# 198   1/2/2011 at 11:32 (1,391 days old) by 3beltwesty (Miss Gulf Coast, MS)        
What are thoughts about the ball bearings?

Do you think the ball bearings are somehow cocked, or with too much axial preload?

If you have the machine off and revolve the basket, how many clicks (bearing noises) do you hear per revolution?

In your recent videos at what time X:YZ is the bearing noise the worst?


Post# 708347 , Reply# 199   10/10/2013 at 10:44 (379 days old) by ozarkdude (arkansas)        
LG2455HG

Just picked up one of these machines for $30, a WM2455HG. Seller said it was making noise and I noted drum had slop. Also has/had mudd butt. Tore it down and knocked out bearings. Based on what ive read here and elsewhere, I feel obligated to make some comments.

This machine was manufactured 2007, not sure when it went into service. Guy I bought it from said they bought it used 5 years ago, that until this problem they loved it and just bought two new LG stackable FL'ers because this had worked so well.

The only luck ive had or seen with washing machines over my 55 years were Maytags or Whirlpools my parents bought new. I never saw any consumer grade washers that I thought were worth putting much time or effort into once something major fritzed. Why would you put $200 into a timer, or same amount or more into a transmission when you could go buy a new maching like it for $300, or just go find a used one for $50? Makes no sense. Usually, once the belt was worn out, so was the machine.

So why on earth would I purposely go out and buy an LG front loader with blown bearings? Several reasons. First, we have a well that runs dry if we draw too much water. If wifey does more than three loads, and someone takes a shower or does dishes, water will be out for a while. So a washer that uses less water was desireable. Second, LG has been one of the higher rated consumer grade front loaders. Third, this isnt a $200 repair to a $300 machine, this is a $60 repair to much more expensive machine. Repaired, I could easily sell this machine for $400-500. Yeah, I do have "time" into it. But most of that was wasted "learning" how to take it apart. I could have the tub out of one in a bit over an hour now that I know how it comes apart. If I were paying someone labor it wouldnt make sense. But it woudlnt make sense on a $300 top loader either. At $100 hour labor, plus parts, most washers arent worth fixing once they fritz.

I dont know what ill have when this thing goes back together, but I saw it run and all the lights lit up, so I assume it should be okay. But I have a few observations. First, I was impressed how clean it was after I opened it up. No transmission flinging oil and soap water around the cabinet like a front loader. That bolt on the back that mushes, appears to be bronze. I dont think its "cheap", I believe it was installed as a stretch bolt to keep constant but reasonable tension on the bearings. There is no sleeve between the inner and outer bearings inner races. If to much tension is applied, the bearings will fail.

On the corrosion issue, the spider/drum support on this machine is in fine shape. Its not corroded at all. I cant speak with any more authority than anyone else, other than to surmize that most of the corrosion issues are likely due to poor water conditions, wrong/too much soap, and or leaving the machine closed up after running. Or, LG made some change to the spider material without telling anyone.

Overall, I didnt think it was that bad to tear apart. But then, I have an aviation and exotic car mechanical background and understand complex mechanisms. This isnt really complex, just different. Not sure i like the computer control deal, would prefer a common mechanical timer, but otherwize I can live with it.

I do not like government telling us what to do, or forcing manufactures to make rediculous changes. But thats the world we live in. And while I dont think we are all running out of water, and dont believe the sky is falling, I also dont think we need to see how much water we can flush down the hole. OTOH, thanks to unions, labor has become so expensive manufacturers are forced to build throwaway machines, or make them more expensive to offset future repair costs. One warrantee service call on a new machine will totally wipe out any profit the manufacturer made on the sale. Think about that a minute.

So I am going to fool with this a while, and in the meantime, keep my eyes peeled for an older commercial laundromat SQ front loader.

One last observation. I noted that the OP installed the seal using grease. Seals should always be installed dry (unless specifically stated otherwise by the manufacturer) so they wont push out. My guess is the seal pushed out shortly after starting, and flooded the new bearings. That and he likely used a harder retaining bolt and put too much tension on the bearings. Probably a combination of the two.





Post# 720657 , Reply# 200   12/11/2013 at 16:57 (317 days old) by tgbrendoni (Montreal, Quebec)        

This post was very informative with good point of views from commenters. I was glad to come across it as it helped me to get started on replacing the bearings for my LG WM3677HW which was more of a pain in the ass because it is a combination washer and dryer in one unit. There were extra hoses and wiring connections I had to deal with due to the dryer.

Here, my washer/dryer was bought in December 2004, and after taking it apart, there was no leaks or extensive corrosion of the aluminum spider which was to my relief. However, the cavity between the ribs in the spider was filled with whatever it is, soap scum, lint, etc so I spent quite a while digging the gunk out and then using a pressure washer to blast it and the drum clean. I figured that even if the spider get coated with some kind of paint, the cavity will still get filled up with gunk so I decided to use canned foam spray to fill in the space between the spider and drum. Now waiting for the foam to cure so I can cut off the excess...


Post# 720661 , Reply# 201   12/11/2013 at 17:09 (317 days old) by tgbrendoni (Montreal, Quebec)        

Regarding complaints due to LG washers, I was told by the salesperson, that a year after I got my washer, LG changed the warranty of their appliances from 2 years to 1. He suspect that the company may have skimp on materials for newer models, using lower grade stuff to maximize their profits. He was pretty knowledgeable about appliance mechanics and even would take apart a washer on the showroom floor, much to his boss chagrin.

Post# 720679 , Reply# 202   12/11/2013 at 19:29 (317 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
All this...

Just goes to show why my 30 year old Kenmore is still working!!!LOL..and probably will outlast three of these things, Korean cars are ok, ive had 2 Hyundais and have no complaints.

Post# 720968 , Reply# 203   12/13/2013 at 04:36 (316 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

laundromat's profile picture
Hey, Melvin

I have a similar model. You set the cycle, push start and here the door lock then it beeps and shows DL. When I set the diagnosis,the only thing it does is reads DL. If you keep restarting it, it finally comes on. Sometimes, it goes through with no problem but, it also can be difficult. It fills via the prewash not the main wash chamber of the dispenser and sometimes stops just as the recirculating spray begins. Sometimes during the wash. Other times during the rinse. It's model number WM2277HS. I spoke to one of their techs. He had me unplug it then press start for ten seconds then plug it in and retry. No luck. He thinks it's the door latch assembly. But, why would the door lock have anything to do with the recirculating spray or the flow of water through its dispenser? I want to make this my daily workhorse. If it's only the door lock, the price is right. Thanks in advance for being so in tune with these. They're my favorite. Mine actually has an adjustable screw on the pressure valve! I'll try to get its part number for those who prefer a higher water level.


Post# 721021 , Reply# 204   12/13/2013 at 10:19 (315 days old) by cheesphht (HARRISON)        
Has anyone found an electrical schematic on this LG washer?

Hey, I need to find a schematic to this LG wm2277hw to figure out where I can hook up a relay so that the pump motor turns on.

Yeah, I could stand there with a meter and poke into the wires and sees which one lights it up but that could take a very long time. Why not try to find the drawings on it, huh?

This is probably my last shot at finding these drawings as the people are getting kind of anxious about the washer being broke.

And, please check out links before you paste them. I can't tell you how many dead links I've gotten on this.

Thanks, Joe


Post# 741821 , Reply# 205   3/14/2014 at 12:13 (224 days old) by mse_ii (Wisconsin USA)        
Thanks a bunch

Thanks for the post.
I purchased this LG set at a garage sale $50/pair was told the dryer needed heating element and washer was fine but after. getting it home found the dryer only needed a couple sensors which was great(much cheaper than a heating element) but once I hooked up the washer I found a horrible smell and loud howling sound.

So needless to say I found this page vey handy.

I did the bearings last year was in a hurry to get it up and running and didn't have the sensor at hand so I never replaced hall effect sensor. I didn't even use it enough at the time to know it had an occasional LE error. Now its gotten worse and I am getting LE error all the time, Guess it is time to tear it apart again.

So far I have a grand total of $150 invested in the pair including parts/machine purchase so add another $25 for the "Hall"senso, and I feel I did alright.

thanks again for all your efforts made here.


Post# 741823 , Reply# 206   3/14/2014 at 12:31 (224 days old) by mse_ii (Wisconsin USA)        

Oh... I have a question too.
Those "dampers" kinda like a shock.

Should they be pretty loose and just work as a guide or should they work actualy like a shock?

Should there be some sort of seal/gasket/guide inside them?
The way the plastic piece is designed it looks like it should have something.


When I opened my machine I realized someone else had worked on it b4.
So I am not sure what condition those dampers/shock should be in but they are kina slopy atm.
This machine bounces around quite a bit and am wondering if that is normal or should it be somewhat smooth. I think they my need to be replaced but it will cost $50-$60 to replace so I don't want to do it on a hunch.





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