Thread Number: 31662
My First Neptune Adventure-- The Smelly Washer
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Post# 477603   11/26/2010 at 05:52 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

I am a Ford technician, not an appliance technician but I have learned a lot in the past years when my machines failed or I just wanted to do a super maintenance on them.

We had decided back in January of 2001 to retire our Maytag 712 washer and dryer (big mistake) after 17 years of flawless service. Of course our love for Maytag ran deep because of that pair and I just couldn't wait any longer for the Neptunes! And we loved those machines too!

Unfortunately like so many others we had no clue that it was so important to use these machines in a particular way to avoid smelly washer and soap scum buildup. The wife was used to using cold water only to conserve energy in the top loader with a healthy dose of liquid detergent and liquid fabric softener. HUGE MISTAKE!!

Our house began to smell really bad, clothes really bad, but we hadnt really noticed in the early term because we both smoked cigarettes and the house was often smoke filled. We both quit smoking and I found myself very sensitive to mold smells for some time after that and soon I found I could not stand the smells coming from the laundry!

So I had to investigate and was shocked by what I found. Again this was not due to the machine itself. This model 4000 had been already updated with the mold resistant boot with the drain, the door had the ventilation built in, etc. It was purely lack of understanding of how to do laundry in the modern front loader.

I have shared these pics on other sites but most of those are no longer avaliable so I thought I should share this with the fine members here and anyone else who happen to search this site for information.

First I would like to say this is a wonderful machine for maintenance access. Easy to dismantle with a few basic tools and you can download a manual for these off the net with no real effort at all. So I began my journey to find out why this machine smelled so bad. I removed the door and the bulkhead, and then all the clips and the front cover to the outer tub and there in lies the culprit...
Tons of soap scum buidup!! GROSS!

Here is the tub cover.... you couldnt even see the bristle seal!






Post# 477604 , Reply# 1   11/26/2010 at 05:53 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Another view

Post# 477605 , Reply# 2   11/26/2010 at 05:55 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Before basket removal

Post# 477606 , Reply# 3   11/26/2010 at 05:56 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Down in the sump.. OMG!



Post# 477607 , Reply# 4   11/26/2010 at 05:58 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

And basket removed. Look at the buildup all around the spider too! Gross!

Post# 477609 , Reply# 5   11/26/2010 at 06:01 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

But there IS HOPE FRIENDS! Just get down and dirty and clean this horrible mess up! And it will look like this in about an hour or so!

Post# 477610 , Reply# 6   11/26/2010 at 06:02 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Basket cleaned up

Post# 477611 , Reply# 7   11/26/2010 at 06:03 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Remember that horrible front cover with saturated brisle seal?

Post# 477613 , Reply# 8   11/26/2010 at 06:04 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Now this looks a lot healthier!

Post# 477615 , Reply# 9   11/26/2010 at 06:06 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

And now once again a happy model 4000 Neptune is saved from an abusive front load lifestyle that changed radically and we have never had Neptune smells again!

Post# 477617 , Reply# 10   11/26/2010 at 06:10 (4,872 days old) by fordtech ()        

Now the moral of the story. USE hot water washes at least once per week! Stop using liquid detergent! Use detergent in moderation! Use bleach in your whites each week.

Some folks recommend leaving the door open, but I have never had to do that with either one of my Neptunes after following the above laundering habits for the past almost 6 years. The Neptunes have a wonderful ventilation system built into the door and that should not be necessary.

I hope you enjoyed this little adventure, and again dont be afraid of your Neptune, they are very simple to work on!


Post# 477640 , Reply# 11   11/26/2010 at 09:36 (4,871 days old) by georgect (Fairfield, CT)        
No spider corrosion?

georgect's profile picture
What material or process did they use on the spider that kept it form corroding?

Wow...it sure does look great. I do love how much water that washer uses. It's like the perfect amount, not too stingy.

Is there a heater in there (I don't see one).


Post# 477653 , Reply# 12   11/26/2010 at 10:39 (4,871 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

My cousin had one of these Neptunes. After about a year the whole house started to smell like a sewer. Yuck.

You did a great job cleaning up that machine. Better than new!


Post# 477657 , Reply# 13   11/26/2010 at 11:44 (4,871 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Wow

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Well if that doesnt convince you about detergent powder with bleach and hot washes nothing will...

I expected to see the spider like the LG thread, I wonder if the crud actually protected it....or is it true to say that those machine spiders didnt rot??

Interesting drum/baffle/spider arrangement,with the baffles covering the screw mounts..

Thanks for enlightening us, Mike



Post# 477660 , Reply# 14   11/26/2010 at 12:26 (4,871 days old) by fordtech ()        

Thanks to all!
This early Neptune didnt have an onboard heater. My 7500 model does and the 6500 models did as well. I personally havent seen one of these corrode up like the one in the LG thread. I have seen the one in the Commercial Neptune that was all coated with heavy dried soap scum on it. I think all that I have ever heard about the spider on these is an occasional broken mount.
The insulators on the mounts do however help to prevent corrosion between two dissimilar metals.

I really do like the Neptunes! Too bad Maytag couldnt have had more time to get the act together. All I have see from Whirlpool is a concerted effort to keep people from repairing or restoring them by radically driving up the prices of repair parts. For example the outer tub was 198.00 from Maytag. Now the average price is 498.00!


Post# 477661 , Reply# 15   11/26/2010 at 12:27 (4,871 days old) by wringersteve ()        

Looks GREAT! We had one exactly like yours. We always used powder detergent and hot/warm washes and we never had the mold problem. Our big problem was with computer circuitry that kept failing. We loved the washer, but refused to take out a second mortgage on our home to pay for repairs. We went back to a top-loader and haven't looked back, except that my wife misses the delay start. Congratulations on a job well done!

Post# 477662 , Reply# 16   11/26/2010 at 12:35 (4,871 days old) by fordtech ()        

Thanks Steve! I hear you on the electronics problems on the early models. I replaced most of that stuff cheaper off parts from Ebay, like motor and controller for 50.00, upgraded the wax motor, upgraded control board. But in 2005 Sears had a NIB 7500 that I bought for half price that I replaced this particular machine with. Last I heard from the new owner is that it is still working fine though.

I have a couple more threads on the 7500 and how I upgraded my MDG4000 gas dryer to an MDG7500 coming soon!


Post# 477776 , Reply# 17   11/26/2010 at 20:26 (4,871 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

nmassman44's profile picture
I love the before and after...but my question is...what ventalation system?!? What you see at the top of the inner door is the vent for just that...the inner and outer door. The washer is a sealed system and thats one big reason why you have that mold buildup. After the wash is done for the day leave the door open to dry it out. That alone will make sure you dont have any mold issues plus using an HE detergent will make a huge difference. Tide HE Powder does a great job. Just try doing that simple tip will save you from doing a teardown again.
Oh and before I forget to ask...did you remove the baffles in the drum to clean out the mold in them?


Post# 477783 , Reply# 18   11/26/2010 at 20:42 (4,871 days old) by fordtech ()        

Yes all the baffles were removed. I have been using HE power detergents for a long time now. This tear down occured in Feb 2005 and there has been no reoccurance. The ventilation is for the boot area as that open area in the bottom hangs over the boot area. There is also a drain tube in the boot. I have never kept the door open and there has not been ANY odor in all these years since in either machine. The ventilation is not just for the door itself. The door is sealed but the machine can breath through the vent. Just take a close look and you will see the opening in the bottom of the door extends well into the machine past the door seal.

Now there is no active flow through ventilation at a stop but there is enough to prevent the boot from staying wet Which has been a source of problems in the past. The boot area is not sealed off from the rest of the machine. The hot washes and powder detergents have been the biggest overall reason for staying internally clean from my experience in the past 5 years of odor free use. Most of this experience is with my newer MAH7500 with all the improvements at that point in the production.


Post# 477789 , Reply# 19   11/26/2010 at 20:56 (4,871 days old) by fordtech ()        

I should also add that the 7500 also has an internal heater, which I am sure is helpful as well.

Post# 477848 , Reply# 20   11/27/2010 at 06:35 (4,871 days old) by mayguy (Minnesota)        

Wow! Great job cleaning it up.

I would move the hinge on the door, to make loading clothes into the dryer easier!

I some time wished I got the Neptune washer to match my dryer.


Post# 477849 , Reply# 21   11/27/2010 at 06:39 (4,871 days old) by fordtech ()        

Thanks Mayguy! Yes I did reverse the door later down the road exactly like you suggest.. :)

Post# 477864 , Reply# 22   11/27/2010 at 10:44 (4,870 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)        
Well if that doesnt convince you about detergent powder with

revvinkevin's profile picture

I agree completely with Mike on this! For what ever the reason, I just don't care for liquid detergent. Yes I have tried it, but still use and prefer powder.

Fordtech, AWESOME JOB of cleaning it all up, but better yet documenting your efforts! That was in pretty disgusting condition inside. It's too bad EVERYONE who insists on using ONLY cold water and liquid detergent can't be made aware by viewing this thread!

What detergent do you use (brand, flavor)?

BTW... Welcome to Automaticwasher.org! You will enjoy it here! Hopefully you will visit and contribute often!

Kevin



Post# 477877 , Reply# 23   11/27/2010 at 13:56 (4,870 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

fordtech:
Good job, keep sharing the knowledge->it must be documented!


Post# 477884 , Reply# 24   11/27/2010 at 14:42 (4,870 days old) by fordtech ()        

Thanks for the welcome Kevin! I put all this up on the old Samauri Appliance website years ago but all the old pages went away so I figured I would share it again with a site that may be more likely to survive. Im glad to share my experiences best I can, though the appliance techs have a lot more of them than I do.

Since I have had nothing but great results using at least one hot wash per week, powdered detergent, and bleach on whites and also have a 7500 now with onboard heater I have to strongly support not using liquid detergents also.
I personally used Persil powder for 2 years in very small dosages blended with STPP. Then I tried Sears Ultra Plus HE detergent powder and found it works very well for a fraction of Persil and have been using it for the past 3 years. Ive tried Tide HE powder too but its substantially more expensive than the Sears detergent. I love the smell of Persil though, it has that old OXYDOL smell I remember as a youngster.

supremewhirlpol, Ive seen your threads and I know I look to learn more with your experience on the Neptune.

My overall plan is make mine last another 15 years, with a complete overhaul at 10 years, 5 years from now on the washer. I just did a complete overhaul on the dryer that I have yet to make a thread about. The upgrade thread to the 7500 is only half the story on the dryer. The dryer hit 10 years old and it got a major workover internally.


Post# 478069 , Reply# 25   11/28/2010 at 12:05 (4,869 days old) by dirtybuck (Springfield, MO)        

The laundromat that I frequent has quite a few Neptune's for customer use. I wish they would do the same as you did, Ford.

How long did the entire procedure take?

(Kevin: What FLAVOR detergent did he use? LOL! I've never tasted any sort of detergent before...must be an interesting try. But for me, I'll go with SCENT instead.) :)


Post# 478083 , Reply# 26   11/28/2010 at 12:45 (4,869 days old) by fordtech ()        

Buck you can do this whole operation in a couple hours, three tops. Scrubbing took the longest.

Post# 478295 , Reply# 27   11/29/2010 at 11:05 (4,868 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        
Good job !!

gorenje's profile picture
OMG !! Now I can see what you people mean with mold problems and smelly washers.
It was always strange for me (european) to understand why so many people in America have such problems with stinky front loaders. So the problem is cold water, liquid detergent, fabric softener buildup and closed door. One more think could be maybe that in America you have so soft water and for this reason is even harder to rinse out the detergent.

you have done a great job, now the machine is like new again :)
Ingemar


Post# 478318 , Reply# 28   11/29/2010 at 12:40 (4,868 days old) by fordtech ()        

Thanks Ingemar. Actually I have pretty hard water here. We Americans are just used to dumping too much of everything into the old top loader and we were told to use cold water to conserve energy, so my wife went to the extreme and NEVER used anything but. She was only trying to help the family budget but this was the unfortunate result... learning the hardway about the front loader technology.

Post# 478387 , Reply# 29   11/29/2010 at 18:52 (4,868 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
GREAT SAVE OF AN AMERICAN WASHER

combo52's profile picture
I an glad you took the time to save this machine and showed us how this is done. The buildup you removed is dirt, oils and fabric softener residue. This is not caused by using to much detergent but rather too little cupeled with cold water which won't remove the before mentioned soils. I tell all my customers with low water use washers to ALWAYS use HOT water when washing regular laundry and to be sure to use enough high quality detergent and you will have no reason to have smelly washers or have to use an cleaning products in the washer. Even with an electric water heater you probably won't spend $20 per year on water heating, thats the beauty of these washers is that they use VERY LITTLE HOT WATER. I do agree that I prefer powered detergents and I do recommend LCB at least once per week be used and only cold rinses to keep bacteria down. But again a great save of a worthy machine, remember the new four Rs REDUCE REUSE REBUILD RECYCLE.

Post# 478599 , Reply# 30   11/30/2010 at 21:28 (4,867 days old) by fordtech ()        

You would be shocked how many of these great machines have been stripped for parts or just junked. I have seen thousands of the used parts on Ebay. There was a glut of new parts out there dirt cheap for a few years too and people just chose to destroy great machines.

I think with so many finding similar problems now with virtually every machine sold in America that there have to be some whom regret this and the end of the real Maytag.


Post# 478619 , Reply# 31   11/30/2010 at 23:24 (4,867 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
wax motor trouble on mine.

when i started troubleshooting the mah3000 i bought for $25 in
non-working condition,i quickly found it had the classic
"wax motor" problem-cause was the resistor disc clipped to the
side of the wax chamber had it's conductive faces about 1/16"
apart with no insulation around the edge-they get a little
damp and"flash over"blowing out the little triac on the board
along with the resistor..
I took a wax motor from the dispenser,carefully took it apart
and insulated the edge of the disc with a tiny bit of "glyptal"
insulating paint.Put that wax motor in the door lock,did the
same repair to the other dispenser wax motor,fixed the
original door wax motor(ground off a bit of metalizing where
the flashover occured,insulated)put that one in the dispenser
bought some triacs from didgikey and replaced the blown one.
After the electrical repairs fixed a plugged pressure switch
hose and the neptune was back in commission!
A little drop of insulating paint for the wax motor probably
would have saved a lot of these from an early grave...


Post# 478635 , Reply# 32   12/1/2010 at 05:01 (4,867 days old) by fordtech ()        

Yes they were a common issue on early models. They have an electronic solenoid to replace the door latch and an all new dispenser with solenoid water valve and that has eliminated most problems with the control board. There is a new motor and controller as well. Zero electrical problems here and both my newer machines have the touchscreen digital panel so that is a good thing. They made other improvements to reduce smelly washer as well, but the tide was too high of people who couldnt wait to sue Maytag into oblivion so Maytag did stupid stuff like adding that miserable top load Neptune and the Korean made Neptune with the glass doors, both of which were crappy. They had the Neptune rear panel washers nearly perfect by early turn of the century but it was simply too late and too many CORPORATE decisions that were poor at best and the class action suit put the nail in the coffin.

Post# 478665 , Reply# 33   12/1/2010 at 09:27 (4,866 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Re people in America have such problems with stinky front lo

My dad got his first Frontload washer in 1947 and second one in 1976. Both were Westinghouses. The detergent recommended with each was All in powder form. The 1976 machine still works.

In growing up with American made FL washers I NEVER remember ANY issues with mold at all. In Indiana and Michigan the FL Washer was in a damp basement.

This whole FL mold thing came about in America in the mid to late 1990's when America rediscovered the FL washer. These new type FL washers did not look at Westinghouse's FL boot design that goes back to right before WW2.

The idiots basically were so stupid they did not look at a 1/2 century old American FL boot design that worked. This behavior is common with newbie cocky engineers and designers who know everything. They designed in a boot that collected water.

Many of us who grew up with older American FL washers find it real odd that a design 1/2 century later has mold and smell issues. A friend who had a Maytag Neptune in the late 1990's was always complaining about the horrible smell and how bad FL washer are; having to clean the boot out with chlorox.

The smell was so bad one had to hold ones nose in their laundry room.

In past eras many of us left the FL washers door open; or not latched so the boot would last longer. FL repair guys recommended this in the 1950's.

There are folks like my neighbor who got nickeled and dimed to death with repairs bills on the Maytag FL Neptune and thus went back to TL washers and junked the FL. The rash of moldy boots; wax motors; Solenoid, R11 and Q6 issues were so high that Maytag gave my neighbor a 550 buck off coupon to buy a Maytag TL machine. Sending the machine to its grave was an economic decision; the FL had too many repair costs.






Post# 478668 , Reply# 34   12/1/2010 at 09:56 (4,866 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

The neighbor who junked the FL smelly Neptune used powder he detergents. Thus the mold smell must have been a design issue with too much water collecting in the boot. After several newer type boots and leaving the door always open; the issues were more like R11/Q6's and wax motors and solenoids. They still complained of the moldy sewer smell but not as much. They actually placed a clothes line outside to air out stuff from the washer, wind and UV to remove smells.

Events like this caused many folks to drop newer American FL washers.


Post# 478702 , Reply# 35   12/1/2010 at 12:40 (4,866 days old) by fordtech ()        

If a heavy mold accumulation occured in the machine like mine, a boot replacement would not have been enough. It wasn't just liquid detergent, it was the amount of detergent combined with cold wash only. Anyway you know darned well that if the repairman came out and the tub was loaded like mine, he sure as heck didnt clean out the machine and it would still have an accumulation that stinks.

I didnt mention it but there were also a LOT of BAD techicians replacing loads of stuff that had no clue what they were doing. Those technicians were also running up the costs of the repairs and not fixing it right when they did work on it. Another major cause of Maytags fall was poor repair network. If all the Maytag dealers had sufficient staff to keep thier customers machines serviced by properly trained technicians much of the failures would not have occurred or would have been repaired per factory specifications.
Too many people got thier machines serviced by the lowest bid contractors working for extended warranty companies that sent out any old flakey technician who just guessed his way to do the repair.
Maytag was also at fault by not sending out qualified technicians, or checking behind the qualified ones to make sure they werent over selling the repair.
I cant tell you how many people on Ebay were selling new parts that the service tech ordered and said wasnt anything wrong with it.... never installed it.
Maytag paid for a lot of repairs that werent done or werent done properly.

There are a lot of good qualified technicians out there, but there are also a lot of folks who dont want to work on your machine if they have to put any real time and effort to it. They want a fast buck, fast in and out the door repairs. If they think it is going to take a lot of thier time they will scare you away with ridiculous repair prices and you just junk the machine as a result.

Now today Whirlpool owns the company and they are trying hard to kill every Neptune repair by charging outrageous prices for the parts alone.
The only way to win with Neptune today if fix it yourself and get the parts off Ebay for the most part.


Post# 478814 , Reply# 36   12/1/2010 at 22:05 (4,866 days old) by powerfin64 (Yakima, Washington)        
bad technicians

powerfin64's profile picture
I had a experience with a not so qualified technican about a year ago.
Story- bought my first front loading washer, which was a Amana.
6 months after I got it, it started to leak from the front boot and the door was sagging a touch. Called amana, repair guy came out, and ordered parts. parts didn't come in, then very shortly after, amana replaced the washer with a new one of the same model, (due to didn't know when parts would be available.) 6 months later, same problems arose with the replaced washer, called amana, and they sent out someone from the same company, who sugguested replacing 2 items. parts were ordered and installed by the same guy. less than 2 months later, same problems AGAIN. Did the same process all over ,and got someone else from the same company to come out and look at it. Told him the whole story of everything, and he told me to, go to where I bought it, and tell them I want a different brand due to all the consistent problems, which I did do. Amana(whirlpool) wanted a different company to check it out. Now, this guy KNEW his stuff. told him the full story, and he pointed out right off the bat, that, This wasn't installed right by the last technician, and asked me if I wanted it fixed or just tell Whirlpool what he found. I didn't want it fixed.
After all that was done, I got a different brand front loading washer, which I am very happy with and haven't had any problems at all.

Rich



Post# 478822 , Reply# 37   12/1/2010 at 22:18 (4,866 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
In addition to the onboard heater, another advantage of the 7500/6500 Neptunes is that they incorporate a rapid tumble sequence in the next to last rinse cycle. This helps to loosen any debris that has collected inside the outer drum and flush it down the drain.

I've had my 7500 set since 2001. There has never been a mold/odor problem. I rarely do cold washes - they are either warm or hot, with at least one hot wash per week. I've also never used chlorine bleach in them. STPP gets the duds very clean without needing bleach.

In the past year I have noticed some mold collecting under the detergent dispenser door and in the cavity. This is very light and a simple swipe with a sponge gets rid of it. Since there is no mold on the boot and no odor, I doubt this is heppening elsewhere inside the washer. FWIW, the Miele 1918 I keep in the unheated workshop also develops mold in the fabric softener compartment. It's less if I leave it open after washing. But I think the "environmenatally safe" fabric softener might have something to do with the mold development in both the Miele and Neptune, as well as the cold water only supply for the garaged Miele.


Post# 479028 , Reply# 38   12/2/2010 at 18:33 (4,865 days old) by fordtech ()        

Ive read many posts from you Sudsmaster over at the Garden Web about your 7500s and I know you have the most experience with them. I was thinking my old 4000 model did the rapid tumble with the later generation controller but maybe the 7500 was the first after all. Been too long to remember now.

Ive use STPP with Persil in the past but the combination got too expensive for me and at one time I couldnt even get any STPP. I wish I could get it locally, as I do really like the improvement in performance in harder water.


Post# 479305 , Reply# 39   12/4/2010 at 10:17 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        
NOW the 7500 Inspection after 5+ years

So last night curiosity got the best of me and I had to tear down the 7500 model that replaced the washer in this original topic a little over 5 years ago. I primarily wanted to see what the effects over time have been with using powedered detergent exclusively. This machine is used primarily by my wife, but my adult daughter uses it for her personal laundry and I use it a couple times a month for my uniforms. In total the load counter on the machine shows 1745 loads of laundry done in that time frame.

I have noted many times that this machine has not had any odors from mold or soap buildup in all this time. I also noted that I dont leave the door open after washes and we do at least one hot wash load per week and one with bleach LCB.

What I found was rather shocking to me, and I believe to be the result of hard water. Ill let you help me decide but I was more disappointed than I expected in what I found.

The Machine Maytag MAH7500AWW Neptune


Post# 479306 , Reply# 40   12/4/2010 at 10:20 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

This view shows the door removed, and placed where you can see the vented opening at the bottom that is ducted to the air vents at both sides of the top of the door.


Post# 479307 , Reply# 41   12/4/2010 at 10:26 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

This is front panel removed, dispenser door removed, top raised out of the way and supported. You can see the latch assembly which will be removed next with two screws and the wiring to the heater assembly. You can also see the drain tube assembly for the boot.

Post# 479309 , Reply# 42   12/4/2010 at 10:30 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

Here is where the issue begins to be revealed. After removing the latch, tub cover clips and wiring and pulling the tub cover here we see a crust that has formed in the areas where the water line is. The water heater is coated with this completely and the crust is rock hard on the metal surfaces. It can however be scraped off the plastic surface. You will see some residual amounts of lint in the bristle seal and in small clumps in various areas.

Post# 479310 , Reply# 43   12/4/2010 at 10:32 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

And here you see the sump area

Post# 479312 , Reply# 44   12/4/2010 at 10:35 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

And now the stainless spinner basket removed. Note the very dry area above the water line and normal splash areas as opposed to the dark not quite dry areas below. This crust is thin but very hard. I was able to scrape most of it out of the plastic outer tub but it was stuck tough to the spider.

Post# 479313 , Reply# 45   12/4/2010 at 10:39 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

Here we see the outside of the stainless spinner basket. This crust is tough as nails! You could grind it off but I dont think it is necessary, as it is thin and doesnt add any significant weight to the basket.

Post# 479314 , Reply# 46   12/4/2010 at 10:54 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

So in wrapping up this task I cleaned off all the crust that I was able to scrape from the plastic outer tub, the front tub cover, sump area, removed all debris and lint and cleaned the bristle seal. I could not adequately remove the sediment from the heater so I replaced the heater and its sensor with a spare I have here. But I plan to soak the original one to dissolve the sediment later and restore it as they are 120.00 for a new one and Ill save it for spare.

I have successfully eliminated slimey scum and stinky smelly washer over the past 6 years but now that I see this I wonder what I could do to prevent or reduce this hard sediment? Perhaps adding a water softner? Or just going back to using STPP to soften the water? I wish now that I hadnt waited 5+ years. I wish I had taken it apart after the 2 years I used STPP with Persil powder to have a comparison to now.

I questioned both my wife and daughter and they state they only use 1 scoop of HE detergent per load so I dont think it its overdosing that caused this. It would appear to be primarily hard water.

What do you think?
I know someone earlier in this thread suggested that all that moldy soap scum in my 4000 washer may have preserved the spider and internals from corrosion. There may be something to that! But of course the negatives of the odors that were present in that machine were obvious not to mention health hazards.

Im happy to have no more mold or smelly washer but I sure would like to know how to keep this from forming any worse. I am already making plans to purchase a new stainless drum when the major rebuild happens in another 5 years. I also have a couple spare spiders so that is not a problem.

But I would also like to do some preventative maintenance along the way.


Post# 479323 , Reply# 47   12/4/2010 at 11:37 (4,863 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Current powder formulations are dense, compact

jetcone's profile picture
and so you use a much smaller dose,yes, you are using much less water. However powders unlike liquids depend heavily on buffering agents to soften the water so the surfactant can dissolve into the water and go to work. If the balance between hardness and softness is not just right then hard water will form solids with the builder/softener and also the surfactant used.
It is important to keep the water softened throughout the wash.
Also all soils in laundry drive up the acidity of the wash water, soils are acidic by nature. Clearly a regular dose of TIDE HE powder in your water is not enough to keep the wash liquor alkaline through the whole wash cycle. Since you have such hard water you need a booster in there. You can add STPP like you say but you can also add "washing soda" to keep the alkalinity up and plain old washing soda is a lot cheaper and better for the enviroment.
That is why I am formulating "SPLASH" to have a powerful, compact alkaline builder for hard water situations such as these.
In one recent batch I put too much builder in and got cotton clothes that came out of my Neptune looking like they had been buffed upagainst a sand wheel! So you can have too much alkalinity as well as too much acid. Alkalinity of around 11-14 is a good zone to be in for wash water.

Great Job on the Neptune, I love my 10 year old baby, but I also love my American made Speed Queen too!


Post# 479324 , Reply# 48   12/4/2010 at 11:38 (4,863 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
PS Fordtech

jetcone's profile picture
I bet if you soak the tub in CLR it should come clean again. Let us know how you make out!



Post# 479338 , Reply# 49   12/4/2010 at 12:46 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

Thanks Jetcone! Ill work on getting those things corrected. LMK how the "Splash" works out! Thanks for reminding me about CLR, Ill see if I can find some.

Post# 479354 , Reply# 50   12/4/2010 at 14:31 (4,863 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Interesting

It certainly seems that your detergent dosen't contain water softening agents, or not enough. Either that or not enough is being used.

I know many Americans on here recommend adding phosphates to detergent to soften water.

Our detergents do not contain phosphates anymore, but this has made no difference at all to their cleaning power or the way they look after machine parts. If you use Persil or something like that, despite not having phosphates, you won't need to add any.

So yeah, I guess the solution would be American detergent+phospate, or a European detergent.

Still can't work out why the removal of phospahtes has made no difference at all to our detergents, but seems to have had a huge effect on those accross the pond. Bizarre!

Matt




Post# 479359 , Reply# 51   12/4/2010 at 14:41 (4,863 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

In the USA Phosphates were banned in home laundry detergent eons ago; I think 1993. Today the quest is for drop it from dishwasher soap too.

In the Southwest USA gambit is to buy the washing machine soap in Mexico; since they have laxer standards.



Post# 479398 , Reply# 52   12/4/2010 at 16:42 (4,863 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
3beltwesty

I know, same here, I just don't understand why removal of phosphates has had a negative affect on the performance of U.S. detergents, yet the removal of phosphates has made no differece to detergent performance over here.

Matt


Post# 479414 , Reply# 53   12/4/2010 at 18:11 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

I think it is a lot more than just the phosphates. Lots of changes in environmental standards, the type machines we used when phosphates were legal, the difference in heater temperatures onboard from europe and their smaller high speed machines and water conditions,treatments etc.

Jetcone I am not sure how much good CLR would do on the spinner. I finally finished working over the heater element and it took about an hour and a half of scraping and a couple hours of soaking in CLR with scraping between soaks and wire brushing.





Post# 479419 , Reply# 54   12/4/2010 at 18:35 (4,863 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        
Hard Water

qsd-dan's profile picture
I'm looking to purchase a Scalewatcher soon since I have extremely hard water too. It uses electronic frequencies to prevent magnesium and calcium from bonding, thus preventing build-up. Long term use actually descales hard water deposits overtime.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO qsd-dan's LINK


Post# 479428 , Reply# 55   12/4/2010 at 19:17 (4,863 days old) by fordtech ()        

Great! Thanks for the tip and the link Dan!

Post# 479560 , Reply# 56   12/5/2010 at 10:31 (4,862 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Matt to answer your question

jetcone's profile picture
about the phosphates gone from EU detergents, what they did in EU is to replace them with zeolites to soften and added a chemical compound ( can't think of what it is right now) to protect machine parts from becoming coated. I'll have to dig out my Henkel formulation book from Germany and look it up, it has a loooonnnnngg name.

Thats why you are seeing good results in the new phosphate free detergents.

Fordtech that looks like a clean heater element to me, there was one other descaler I have used that was stronger than CLR, can't think of it right now , if I remember I'll put it up. I think it came in a yellow bottle?? Too much coffee today.


Post# 479569 , Reply# 57   12/5/2010 at 10:52 (4,862 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Phosphates

mrb627's profile picture
I would be willing to bet that part of the reason the removal of phosphates has effected cleaning performance in the States is that the wash phase of our machines is kept short and sweet. In the UK, washing goes on and on which is where enzymes will perform their best. Long wash cycles like that in the States will never prevail unless the machine can do three load of clothes at one time, LOL! Americans are just not gonna do laundry everyday, if they can help it.

Malcolm


Post# 479593 , Reply# 58   12/5/2010 at 12:59 (4,862 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Jetcone (Jon)

Thanks! I wasn't sure about that, but it makes sense now.

Still don't understand why zeolites and said chemical compund were not added to U.S. detergents when phosphates were dropped, seems a bit odd!

On the plus side, at least theres no signs of mould or detergent residue in your machine Fordtech! :-)

Matt


Post# 479607 , Reply# 59   12/5/2010 at 14:14 (4,862 days old) by fordtech ()        

Great points Jetcone! If you think of that other cleaner LMK please.

LOL Malcolm, you know we Americans couldnt take 2 hour wash times!

Matt, you've got that right! No mold or detergent buildup is great after 5+ years in that machine!


Post# 479701 , Reply# 60   12/5/2010 at 20:36 (4,862 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA)        
Scale buildup

How about periodic descaling, by running the longest, hottest cycle empty, with some citric acid?


Post# 479792 , Reply# 61   12/6/2010 at 05:20 (4,862 days old) by fordtech ()        

That could be worth a try suburbanmd!

Post# 479809 , Reply# 62   12/6/2010 at 08:09 (4,861 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
CLEANING WASHERS

combo52's profile picture
Great photo essays again Fordtech I really enjoy your enthusiasm and thoroughness. I don't think there should ever be a reason for periodic washer cleaning if the machine is being used properly. A machine that can't keep it self clean IS NOT producing CLEAN CLOTHES I have never had any build up issues in any of the TL or FL washers that I have used for years and I don't have a water softener or live in a soft water area. There many rules to good laundry practices many of which have been discussed here. But in general use at least 100 degree water in the tub all the time { this means in a FL washer using the hot setting all the time ] for washing. Cold water is better for rinsing it helps keep bacteria and mold growth down. Too much detergent will never cause any type of build up in a washing machine, its too little that is the problem. Most of the problems we see are with Amway, Shaklee, Sears and the budget brands from the stores.

Post# 479814 , Reply# 63   12/6/2010 at 09:04 (4,861 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA)        
City water hardness in Beltsville

combo52, if your water comes from WSSC's Patuxent plant, it's soft. From the Potomac plant, a little bit hard. If it comes from a well, that's a different story.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO suburbanmd's LINK


Post# 479946 , Reply# 64   12/6/2010 at 19:58 (4,861 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
WATER HARDNESS IN BELTSVILLE

combo52's profile picture
I am closer to the Patuxent plant but they tell us that we get a mixture of water from both plants, but is is softer than the folks who live on the expensive side of town.

Post# 480020 , Reply# 65   12/7/2010 at 06:09 (4,861 days old) by fordtech ()        

It is difficult to determine which way to go. Some people believe you cant have too much detergent while others say too much will cause buildup. Some say hard water is the problem others say no way. I guess the only way to know is trial and error. Ive used Persil at 50 bucks a box blended with STPP at 25 bucks a box, Tide HE, Sears Plus HE, and others. When my machine was all slimey we were using Tide HE liquid and often Downy liquid with it in cold water. Since moving away from cold only washes and to powder we now only have this hard deposit. It would be nice to solve this with reasonable certainty and effort.

Im just glad I have the ability to strip the machine down, but I wasnt having any problems with it as it was, just looked inside to see if maintenance was needed. It only requires a couple hours tear down and reassembly. I work on cars for a living and even a 50,000 dollar Lincoln needs regular maintenance.

I am glad I dont have a spouse who wails at every niggle and demands a new machine every 2 years like some of those folks on the Garden Web...... no washer dryer bankrupcy here! LOL. She has been very patient and content with her Neptunes.


Post# 480067 , Reply# 66   12/7/2010 at 10:00 (4,860 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Fordtech

iheartmaytag's profile picture
I am just wondering, have you ever used any of the washer cleaner products like Tide Washer Cleaner, or Affresh?

I was just wondering if they would take off these deposits, or would something stronger like CLR or Lime Away work?


Post# 480080 , Reply# 67   12/7/2010 at 10:49 (4,860 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA)        
Descaler

I bought a box of expensive Miele washing machine descaler, which turned out to be pure citric acid. You can get citric acid a lot cheaper, like through Amazon. From what I've read, citric acid is one of the mildest and safest acids to use for descaling. You don't want to use a strong product that could damage seals. Even vinegar is supposed to be questionable for this purpose. What is Maytag's official advice?

Now, since I've been using STPP regularly along with the Sears powdered detergent, there's been no white buildup on the drum and I haven't had to descale.


Post# 480107 , Reply# 68   12/7/2010 at 12:24 (4,860 days old) by fordtech ()        

Iheartmaytag, I havent used anything to cleanse this machine at all since I havent experienced the odors at all after radically altering the way we were doing the laundry.

I had never seen scale buildup issues talked abvout before and when I saw that on the Commercail Neptune thread I had to dig in and take a look and sure enough there it was.

I think my best shot right now is to go back to STPP and try the citric acid cleaning once in awhile since you have seen a major improvement doing that suburbanmd or something akin. Im already using the Sears powder.

I have some CLR here but like you though it says you can clean front loaders with it, I am concerned about seal damage.


Post# 480135 , Reply# 69   12/7/2010 at 14:32 (4,860 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
BATHTUB CLEANER IS 6 PERCENT CITRIC ACID

Here is a before and and after shot of about 10 minutes of work with bathtub cleaner.

The cylinder/tubs round sides have some scum that came off with the 6 percent bathtub spray, elbow grease and some paper towels.

This is after 4 years of usage on a now 34 year old washer that has some rust. I did this last night. The tub cleaner was about 4.5 dollars and I used about 1/4 of it.

This is a potato pulley type westinghouse from 1976 model LT570, not the point of the thread, just an example of citric acid experiment. This tub is steel and porcelain coated. Years ago some folks washed with lemon juice to clean out an old machine, One looked at the stuff coming out of the discharge hose to see the crud. This might be bad for an aluminum slider modern FL washer.

One can see some lint crud that stuck to the back that is about 4 inches below the bearing/seal. The scumline crud acts like glue and traps lint in that horizontal line. The back round of the tub was painted with epoxy paint 4 years ago, ie mostly held up except for the bearing center area.

The trapped lint gets caught between the tub and basket and can scrape the paint off.

Notice how the back lower part is mostly clean; the stuff that splashes up has the rusty scum that wiped right off like a dirty car window.

I did not paint the diameter part that tub 4 years ago, that is white "bathtub ring" type scum. It says on the bottle to not use on washers, but being a rebel it looks like it works well.


Post# 480165 , Reply# 70   12/7/2010 at 17:53 (4,860 days old) by fordtech ()        

Excellent results 3beltwesty, and I am amazed that paint held up that long. With an all steel outer tub like that I think it would be a great candidate for stripping down and having it powder coated. I bet that would last a long time.

was the crust on the side hard as concrete? This stuff on the stainless tub on mine is rock hard, rough and very thin. I guess it could also be stripped with 3M roloc grinding disks which are like a tough green pad on a wheel you put on a die grinder.


Post# 480175 , Reply# 71   12/7/2010 at 18:51 (4,860 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
re cleaning with citric acid.

Fordtech;

The stuff on the side was just like "bathtub ring" deposits, it came off with just paper towels wetted with the bathtub cleaner and hand rubbing.

I just sprayed it on and let it slide down; then placed paper towels in the sump area and used these to scrub with. The citric acid cuts into the deposits. These deposits on mine get cut by the Comet bathtub cleaner, you can see a trail of stuff streaming down the walls when I first sprayed it.


The old back area was sanded down in the trouble areas to remove the rust, then Rust Bullet used to cover these areas, I used three coats. Then there are about 3 coats of epoxy paint.

The powder coating idea is interesting; I guess one would need an oven large enough to hold the tub.


Post# 480176 , Reply# 72   12/7/2010 at 18:51 (4,860 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
MINERAL DEPOSITS IN WASHERS

combo52's profile picture
Fordtech and 3beltwesty you both need to use more detergent or install a water softener. Any washer that is developing a build up of any kind is not giving you the cleanest, whitest and softest clothing. Periodically using cleaners or using hot water are not the best way to do laundry or take care of your machine. Why not do it correctly all the time? Doing it this way is like not changing your engines oil for 30,000 miles at a time and trying to clean up the damage later. The main seals and water pump and your expensive clothing are all being damaged by poor laundry practices. I am not trying to be hard on anyone but both of you are very smart mechanical type people and thier is a fairly simple solution to mineral buildup, you will never need to take apart one of your machines again to clean it.

Post# 480178 , Reply# 73   12/7/2010 at 18:58 (4,860 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Just curious here John, For a Maytag Neptune, how much liquid or powdered soap should one use per load?

Post# 480189 , Reply# 74   12/7/2010 at 20:00 (4,860 days old) by fordtech ()        

I just use the scoop that comes with the detergent and follow the instructions on the box. Usually it calls for one scoop for normal to one and a half for heavy soil. I use the longest cycle and the stain cycle for my uniforms hot wash cold rinse and extra rinses.

When I used Persil it was 2.5 tablespoons Persil blended with 1.5 tablespoons STPP to equal one 4 tablespoon scoop.


Post# 480192 , Reply# 75   12/7/2010 at 20:08 (4,860 days old) by fordtech ()        

3beltwesty, the powdercoating is usually done commercially. Most larger cities has a powdercoating facility. I belong to a Lawn-Boy mower restoration group and they often powdercoat the mower decks and it turns out like glass and very durable.

Post# 480199 , Reply# 76   12/7/2010 at 20:30 (4,860 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

I was thinking probably of my friends who have powercoating settups for smaller parts, they have an old kitchen type oven in their garages. Thus the limit is the dinky oven,



Post# 480281 , Reply# 77   12/8/2010 at 07:27 (4,859 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
POWER COATING OUTER TUBS

combo52's profile picture
It would be interesting to see how well this would hold up on restoration projects, I may have to give this a try. I have access to a place that can even coat and bake whole car frames. The only case of a manufacturer using powder-coating on washer parts that were regularly subjected to water were the Magic Chef { Norge ] washer baskets and they didn't hold up as well as the porcelain baskets did. But I still think it might be a good idea for restoring old machines that might not get real heavy service. Over the years I have had good luck with two part marine epoxy paint for outer tubs etc. When I have had occasion to dismantle some of these machines years later the epoxy paint had usually held up very well.

Post# 480307 , Reply# 78   12/8/2010 at 10:50 (4,859 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
surface prep is more important than the paint.

Here is a steel tub front that came out after 4 years of regular usage. 4 years ago this area had some rust, it was all sanded off and degreased with extreme care, then 3 coats of Rust Bullet used, plus three coats of a high end epoxy for commercial tanks used. The paint did not fail at all, maybe in just one place.

The sandwich is almost as thick as a credit card.

In one spot it somehow failed, maybe due to a coin, surface prep error, bad luck, who knows.

Once opened the waters pressure due to the drum caused it to open up more, ie peeling due to cyclic fatigue. About 3 months ago I could hear something of a high pitched nature when one tuned the drum in one direction, but not another. This piece or another had bent out and was touching the drum.


Thus it looks like that the water was helping debond the rust bullet slightly with each usage once a breach occured. The dangerous thing is that water gets trapped behind a debonding event and can cause corrosion to quicken even more. About a couple of square inches were not bonded anymore; the rest is like it is welded on. This is with a surface prep I though was like for space flight, thus there is probably a reason paint is used in washers.

IN the LG thread of Supremewhirpol's, he is using coal tar epoxy. This is often used with steel boat hulls and is maybe a good choice too. Epoxy paint has so *give* too it, and coal tar adds even more give.

I have a brand new tub front that I found recently , thus this front will not be used again.

That brown stuff is some sticky goo that comes off with 409 cleaner. The spinning drum is right next to this breach, a fraction of an inch away. There was a penny down in the sump area, maybe this caused the breach.


Post# 480310 , Reply# 79   12/8/2010 at 10:53 (4,859 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
rust bullet

When one gets rust bullet one ones hands, glasses or tools it basically has to be worn off. Some I go no my hand 4 years ago came off after weeks.

Post# 480413 , Reply# 80   12/8/2010 at 18:04 (4,859 days old) by fordtech ()        

Combo, I dont know how well the powdercoat would hold up in a washer for sure, but it does hold up pretty darn well on the mowers considering they are exposed to lawn chemicals and wet grass stuck to the surface for extended periods. It would be a very interesting project to try. Only problem is the cost is pretty high on some things what with surface preparation and such. Your Expoxy paints may be more economical depending on how long the powder coat held up. It looks very similar to porcelin though.

3 beltwesty that is a very interesting discovery! That rust bullet I have never seen before. Ill have to see if I can find some. Looks like it would be great for outdoor equipment as well. Ill be sure to wear gloves if possible with it!
Im glad you were able to find a new tub front for your machine! Looks like a tough one to find parts for. One nice thing about the neptune, there are hundreds of parts for it on Ebay on any given week.





Post# 480532 , Reply# 81   12/9/2010 at 10:08 (4,858 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
google POR15 and Rust Bullet and Eastwood

Fordtech,

POR15 and Rust Bullet and Eastwood make products hawked for cars, trucks and heavy equipment to use on rusty steel. I think the way POR15 and rust bullet works is it sticks so well the corrosion tends to stop. These three companies are mentioned on many threads about old cars and rust.

With the rust bullet I got, I got kit(s) for 20 bucks each that have two dinky 4oz tin cans, two brushes, gloves.

It is not a product what you open, 1/2 use then use a year later.

About any stray product that gets dropped on one's clothes, glasses, hands and has to be worn off. About nothing will remove it. Thus if the object to be covered is cleaned off the stuff sticks real well.

A friend that fixes up old cars uses POR15 and says it is better than Rust Bullet, I am not sure. Both products are all over the web and Ebay too.

I have used rust bullet on my 1985 Toro mower too.

The failure mode with any repair is there is still corrosion going on under the fancy paint job, this is quite common. Rust can be a cancer and one does not remove it all , and many coatings actually trap moisture and feed the old corrosion one missed. I think the theory with POR15 and rust bullet is the barrier is better, thus any tale tail rust is not helped.



Post# 480548 , Reply# 82   12/9/2010 at 12:35 (4,858 days old) by fordtech ()        

Ive heard of POR15 many times. I havent ever used it though.
About 30 years ago when I worked for Nissan we had some spray on rust stopper. We had a problem with rust forming between the layers of sheet metal on the hoods and they sent us some of it and that stuff did a super job of stopping the rust in its tracks... I havent a clue what it was called any more though. It had a consistency of laquer.


Post# 480549 , Reply# 83   12/9/2010 at 12:39 (4,858 days old) by fordtech ()        

Another reason I havent used stuff like that is because I have lived in SW Oklahoma for the past 18 years and we just dont get much rust down here compared to when I lived in Kansas City and where they salted the roads in the winter. Down here in Oklahoma we usually just sand the roads since we only get a few inches a year.


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