Thread Number: 36068
Is the "18" R-E-A-L-L-Y all that?
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Post# 537668   8/17/2011 at 19:22 (4,607 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

Is the KitchenAid KD-18 series truly the best ever? I think they look great, but someone once said on here about 7 years ago- I think it was Tom Turbomatic-that the way they drained was, in essence-a step backwards. Plus, that "upper level power wash" middle wash arm didn't even get NEAR the corners. What are all of your thoughts on this? The KD-16s seem, to me, to be the MOST reliable ever.




Post# 537673 , Reply# 1   8/17/2011 at 20:00 (4,607 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        

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As were the KD-15 and KD-17s. Don't believe the 16 bested them in any way. Just load any of them properly and all is well.

Post# 537675 , Reply# 2   8/17/2011 at 20:05 (4,607 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

John mentioned some probs with the bi-metal detergent dispensers on the 17s,and he does know his stuff. I think the 16s were better than the 15s in the sense that they had the overhead "constant rinse" helping to flush giblets from atop of upper rack items,but come to think of it, you are right I believe, the 15s were also VERY reliable as far as i I have heard!

Post# 537906 , Reply# 3   8/18/2011 at 15:07 (4,606 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

But WHY is the 18 the most revered, despite these flaws?


Post# 537935 , Reply# 4   8/18/2011 at 17:16 (4,606 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

The 18 series was the apotheosis of KitchenAids. It introduced the wash arm under the top rack while retaining the constant rinse. Modified with the 19's wider upper arm, there is virtually no dead space in one, no matter how it is loaded. The idiots at CU never caught on to the importance of a wash arm under the upper rack or the dishwasher would have been heralded as a real "GOT TO HAVE" machine. Unfortunately the energy crisis was making such an impact that Hobart had to go and stupidly discontinue the series for the disastrous 19s which sold only slightly better than umbrellas in the Antarctic and proved only slightly more satisfactory. Hobart reached its zenith with the 18s. The 18 series was as significant an advance over its predecessor as the 15 was over the 14, not in that it washed better and held more like the 15, but the loading flexibility was phenominal and it did have a real Soak & Scrub cycle that did some water heating, not just a Soak cycle.

Super heavily soiled things still go in my Ultra Wash, because the KA does not have WP's Pot Smasher cycle, but really big loads of everything else that don't need the hell beat out of them are very well cleaned by the 18s after 34 years of use.


Post# 537938 , Reply# 5   8/18/2011 at 17:21 (4,606 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

Tom, your posts are SO interesting, I just love them. What was so bad about the 19s if they were slightly better than the 18s? And didn't you say 7 years ago that the way the 18s drained was not the most satisfactory?


Post# 537950 , Reply# 6   8/18/2011 at 18:16 (4,606 days old) by mixfinder ()        
In Depth

I couldn't agree more about Tom. I admire not only the knowledge he imparts but the sheer work and time of sharing in detail. I don't know the model, but the handle was in the console, not below and it had a constant rinse. I never in my life had a dishwasher clean like it did. If I find another Kitchenaid like the one I had or a flip/flop Maytag I'd buy it in a second. The only caveat is wondering why the dishes aren't getting clean and finding the mesh strainer completely blocked.

Post# 537955 , Reply# 7   8/18/2011 at 18:43 (4,606 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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I've had about nine different dishwashers in my kitchen since we bought this house in 1998 and I always go back to the KDS-18.  It's by far the most versatile and best cleaning machine.  The 14 series, I've had the Superba and the Custom at different times are awesome performers but a bit limiting in capacity.  I have a KDS-14 in the garage next to the TOL Maytag and almost never let it sit more than a week without using it.  A great second machine.  I've had a KDS-17 in the kitchen as well but while being a stellar performer, is still not as versatile as the 18.  I had a Whirlpool Power-something from around '88 that was an outstanding cleaning machine but the racks were crumbling and the build quality wasn't as heavy as the KA.  Nothing else feels like a KitchenAid, remember the advertisement of people slamming the door of their dishwashers?  You really can't do that with any other machine. 

Here is a KA shell holding up an Amana convection Radarange that seems like it weighs about 8000 lbs. 

 

The 19 series was largely regarded, even by Hobart-KitchenAid as their least successful model because of the water heating cycle profile and the lack of any heated drying.  The drastic temp changes of the heated water on cooled glassware also left a lot of etching.

 

Post# 537956 , Reply# 8   8/18/2011 at 18:45 (4,606 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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This is the 14 Superba in the garage last week washing up a load of license plates from my son's collection. 


Post# 537957 , Reply# 9   8/18/2011 at 18:52 (4,606 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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A Hipstamatic 70's style pic of my dishwasher sportin' beautiful Stainless Steel panels that Ben brought for me.  These are heavy SS panels, nothing like what you see on the new stuff today.   They were pretty dirty and had paint on them, a little scrubbing with BonAmi (remains of the process on the counter) and they were shining like new again.

 

 

Post# 537964 , Reply# 10   8/18/2011 at 19:58 (4,606 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

You "da man,Gan". Kewl pics and another tidbit that I didn't realize was the etching from drastic temp changes. KitchenAid should not have heated the prewash ,statically at that, to 150 degrees,rather should have heated the main wash,the way Kenmore UltraWash and Whirlpool PowerCleans have done for years, thermostatically delaying while recirculating. This,plus the always no heat fan dry, I think, were the 19s downfalls. Plus, the overhead contant wash/ rinse as they now called it was eliminated and replaced by a stationary slit at the top of the feed assembly in the back of the tub, another step back. Well, at least they got the middle wash arm corrected by extending it and increasing pressure to it , plus decreasing jet hole sizes for a 100 percent increase in wash action for the upper rack,they claimed, over the 18s.

Post# 537966 , Reply# 11   8/18/2011 at 20:09 (4,606 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
KDS19!

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My family had the kds19 for 25 years. I agree the main wash should have had the delay and it should have had a heated dry, but it was a really good dishwasher. We never had a problem with glasses etching. The drying performance was still better than todays heated drying dishwashers. If you used the jetdry on the 19 series the drying improved to top notch. It probably would have went over better with a SS tub. It was a DW before its time. One of the complaints was the cycle time was to long. Compared to todays machines it by far was a time saver!
Peter


Post# 538196 , Reply# 12   8/19/2011 at 23:23 (4,605 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

I would rather have the 19 than any of today's machines


Post# 538467 , Reply# 13   8/21/2011 at 08:21 (4,604 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
You have an excellent memory!

The drain valve in the 18 was smaller in diameter and thus slightly more prone to clogging or jamming on trapped small bits of hard material than the drain valves of previous models.

Post# 538473 , Reply# 14   8/21/2011 at 09:13 (4,604 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
Our KDP-18

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This was probably the best dishwasher my family ever owned, but no one really cared. I remember it was the first time I'd seen the Patrician introduced into the KitchenAid line and it served them well for sixteen years. Here it is at the end of its tenure and it still looks brand new:


Post# 538475 , Reply# 15   8/21/2011 at 09:19 (4,603 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
Was never very excited by this wonderful machine for some re

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Had all the cycles you would ever want, had a very effective rapid-advance timer and did a bang up job even in the rock-hard water that they had in that house. You could load anything anywhere, but because it was my Mother's machine, few pots, pans or anything else ever got loaded into it. I'm a hold out; I still prefer the elegant old-fashioned racking of the 17 and 16 series. When KA put in the upper wash arm and moved the large plate racks to the LH side, they should have totally redesigned the top rack. But, as usual, no one listens to me.

 

I should have taken this machine with me, but at the end of a long drawn out sale with very difficult buyers, I decided to save everybody, including myself, the grief of trying to remove a built-in dishwasher from a very tight hole with a dedicated drain for the previous gravity drain GE front loader.


Post# 538478 , Reply# 16   8/21/2011 at 09:34 (4,603 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Patrician!

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Ken this was a really nice model and I know this was the first of the Patrician models. It was almost the same as the suburba except it lacked the water heater and no sani cycle. I have to look for the brochure later. And I will post it.
Thanks,
Peter


Post# 538481 , Reply# 17   8/21/2011 at 09:44 (4,603 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Also, because it lacked the water heater, it did not have the Soak & Scrub cycle. I remember when I bought my KDS58 that the Imperial was $40 less than the cost of the Superba, but did NOT include the rinse agent dispenser which cost "ding ding ding" $40 which came standard on the Superba along with a host of other extras.

Post# 538486 , Reply# 18   8/21/2011 at 10:47 (4,603 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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I remember just after I had graduated college and had begun working at my new job, there was a secretary who got a new dishwasher and it was a KA. She was rightfully excited to have the KA, I didn't blame her one bit. I'd not heard of the Patrician and when she was describing it to me, I kept saying, you mean Superba? She finally brought in the brochure. I was pretty surprised and also prettty much had a let-down feeling. I mean, the Superba wws THE model KitchenAid to have if you were going to buy a KA. Remember comparing the cycle sequence between the Patrician and the Superba. I kept thinking, why would anyone settle for the Patrician, it just dind't quite have all the pizzaz and unique features of the Superba. And I think the Patrician only existed from the 18 to the 20 series. What I find interesting is KA later came out with an Imperial model in the 21 series, I odn't think in the 20 series, which had the adjustable top rack, rapid advance timer, and the 3 cycles associated with the Imperial since the 17 series--Pots/Pans, Normal, and Rinse & Hold. Soem friends' parents had that model, didn't know it existed, and I immediately thought, hmm a Patrician in disguise lol.

Post# 538501 , Reply# 19   8/21/2011 at 11:45 (4,603 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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When I bought my KA Superba 22 in January 1992, I distinctly recall seeing a Patrician at one of the dealers I investigated. Have no way to know what was the series of it ... current series at the time or an old-stock previous model.

I just tried a wildcard model search at SearsParts. KUDP22 and KUDP23 both get results. KUPD24 does not.


Post# 538520 , Reply# 20   8/21/2011 at 13:33 (4,603 days old) by swillis ()        
kitchenaid not for me

I will take a whirlpool powerclean or maytag jetclean manufactured til about 2000. The kitchenaids had too many quirks for me. Rusty racks, seal leaks, and inconvenient upper rack loading put it near the bottom of the list for me. I know this is just my opinion and most on here will not agree.

Post# 538521 , Reply# 21   8/21/2011 at 13:34 (4,603 days old) by swillis ()        
kitchenaid not for me

I will take a whirlpool powerclean or maytag jetclean manufactured til about 2000. The kitchenaids had too many quirks for me. Rusty racks, seal leaks, and inconvenient upper rack loading put it near the bottom of the list for me. I know this is just my opinion and most on here will not agree.

Post# 538588 , Reply# 22   8/21/2011 at 16:52 (4,603 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Patrician

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Soak n Wash instead of soak n scrub!

Post# 538590 , Reply# 23   8/21/2011 at 16:53 (4,603 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Patrician

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more detail!

Post# 538610 , Reply# 24   8/21/2011 at 18:42 (4,603 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Im weird ...BUT!

I like the older single arm machines, that water comes out with such terrific force, it will blast off even burned on stuff, to my way of thinking, having 2 wash arms just lowers the force of the water, ive never had a problem with stuff on the top rack getting clean.

Post# 538622 , Reply# 25   8/21/2011 at 19:42 (4,603 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Didja every put large pans and bowls in the lower rack? CU never tested dishwashers with anything but plates in the lower rack, a very unreal loading situation.

The difference between soak and wash and soak and scrub is that the S&S portion of the cycle heated water in between periods of recirculating it. The Soak cycle, which did not do the periodic recirculation of water, was introduced in the heyday of enzymes and there were plans for enzyme dishwasher presoak products, but enzymes got a bad rep due, in part, to the high amount of phosphates in the products so they never came to anything and KA was left with soak cycles just using regular detergents. Sad because the lower water temperature of the first fill was perfect for enzyme action. Without enzymes, the S&S cycle provided heat to keep ingredients in regular dishwasher detergents active, but it was not the relentless scrubbing of a WP potsmasher cycle with the thermal delay that added about 45 minutes of washing and heating.


Post# 538643 , Reply# 26   8/21/2011 at 21:43 (4,603 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
I have..

Never used a older Whirlpool Dish washer, but the one in this house is very un impressive, I have a KDS 15 im going to install, this WP takes over an hour and you can forget it cleaning a greasy pan. I scrub all my cookware before loading, because if I dont, it comes out dirty, a large load of silverware tends not to get clean either, I like the rack in the door, but it does not clean as well.

Post# 538644 , Reply# 27   8/21/2011 at 21:49 (4,603 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
POOR CLEANING WP DW

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Hans what WP DW are you talking about? Give us model #s or something, While WP DWs have always been among the best cleaning DWs not every model has meet this standard.


Post# 538645 , Reply# 28   8/21/2011 at 21:49 (4,603 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Hans, I ventur3e to say it sounds like your dishwasher isn't getting enough water. Is it a tall tub or not? If it isn't, it should clean the chrome off a trailer hitch. the pots & Pans cycle is a miracle worker, albeit it takes 2+ hours with 3 different water heat period.

Post# 538650 , Reply# 29   8/21/2011 at 21:57 (4,603 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Whirlpool Dishwasher!

peteski50's profile picture
I am sorry I gave up my power clean 10 years ago when I did a kitchen make over!
It was portable and nothing washed like it.
I had the 8700 model!


Post# 538782 , Reply# 30   8/22/2011 at 13:13 (4,602 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

One thing I did not care for about the 18 was the silverware basket with all of those little dividers. For a long time I ran the Westinghouse silverware baskets with the big bins in my 18s and later switched to the silver baskets from the 22 or 23 series KA machines after cutting off the tall side handles which blocked capacity at the front of the lower rack. I don't need to lift the baskets out to unload silverware and cutlery. I still like KA's design with the long slot at the front of the silverware basket for long-handled cooking utensils.

Hans, while it does take up room in the lower rack, you can take the silverware basket out of the door mounts and stand it at the side of the lower rack and you wil get better cleaning of the silverware and less food deposited in the basket.


Post# 538790 , Reply# 31   8/22/2011 at 13:46 (4,602 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Whirlpool Powerclean!

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The silverware cleaned really well for me when I loaded plates in the front. If I put bowls and pots in the front the silverware didnt get that clean.

Post# 538791 , Reply# 32   8/22/2011 at 13:50 (4,602 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Whirlpool Model....

DU945PW500.

Post# 538847 , Reply# 33   8/22/2011 at 18:56 (4,602 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
Call me shallow, but...

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Whirlpool machines, although great performers, lacked "pizazz" since the early Seventies.

 

When you think of a KitchenAid dishwasher, you immediately think of a prominent and distinct chrome-plated handle in the middle of the control panel, the KitchenAid brand lettered in its unique font, and a clear strong layout of knob, buttons and escutcheon. Jet Clean dishwashers featured a humble but solid embossed aluminum escutcheon with strong clear white buttons and a knob that was exquisitely simple and placed, either in the center, like the washers, or on the bottom right. Maytags proudly acknowledged their washer ancestry and all their appliances were a sculptural rendering of the Midwestern United States. Waste Kings, Frigidaire s all had distinctive styles that were consistent with and proudly promoted the brand. Now everything looks like it came out of the same factory (LOL, they did).

 

If I've learned anything from these experiences its that even the lowliest household appliance needs to have some style. The problem with almost all contemporary smalls and majors is that they lack aesthetic details that attract buyers and add something to our homes. They conform to a diminished identity of a commodity. They are dull.

 

 


Post# 538850 , Reply# 34   8/22/2011 at 19:22 (4,602 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I'll take cleaning performance over lack of pizzaz any day.

Hans, I would venture to say there is something definitely not working right with your WP dishwasher. It may not be getting enough water for each of the fill periods due to calcium buildup in the water valve.

If that's not the case, if you tell me you are using Normal Wash cycle without high-temp option, then that's the reason why you're getting such piss poor results. That's just a main wash, a purge, and a rinse. That's a wash fill going into a cold machine with cold load contents. it doesn't have a chance. Even if ya purgeed the water line before you start the machine. My minimum suggestion is use Heavy Wash and high-temp wash. Pots & Pans will clean the chrome off a trailer hitch with its 2.5 to 3 hour cycle.

Lemme tell ya a story. Golittlesport moved into a new hours around the time of the 1st or 2nd washin. He was complaining his powerClean wasn't getting peanutbutter off his knkives. He had water heater set fairly high. He was not selecting the high-temp wash option for the Normal Cycle. Once he did what I suggested, they were very happy with their dishwasher.


Post# 538856 , Reply# 35   8/22/2011 at 19:55 (4,602 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        

firedome's profile picture
"They conform to the diminished identity of a commodity" Well, that's because dishwashers ARE commodities... and while it's crazy people like us that elevate them to some Icon-like status, the real diffentiation between then, when there actually were well made dishwashers, and now can be defined by a missing but real inherent quality which once was considered mandatory in a high end ie: "aspirational" product, before the bean-counters took total control, and is now lacking in ANY new machine, having been replaced with marketing hype and image and the illusion that technology can replace true inherent worth in quality desgn and construction... the Mad Men have triuphed!!!

Post# 538934 , Reply# 36   8/23/2011 at 07:21 (4,602 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
WP Problem..

I have always used the longest cycle " Pots and pans" which automatically turns on the hi temp wash, it never has been worth much, and I have had it since new ..4 years, it fills just fine , its 4 years old and the racks are already rusting, I have a 65 model kds 15 that the racks still are great on, im going to install it as soon as I get a chance, its noisy...but it will wash a load in about 45 minutes, and they will be clean and dry.


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