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Thread Number: 38984
Balance issues and the inclined drum
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Post# 578083   2/25/2012 at 08:19 (1,029 days old) by bingwsguy (Binghamton NY)        

Does anyone know- from an engineering standpoint- if it is more difficult to balance a load of wash in a front loader with a tilted drum vs a true horizontal axis drum?




Post# 578093 , Reply# 1   2/25/2012 at 08:32 (1,029 days old) by glenfieldmathk1 (Glenfield-Leicester-UK)        

I would say, that Tilted drums could add to balancing problems, the load will have more weight at the back, meaning motor could think out of balance and give a balance re distribution.
Saying this, smaller loads could balance faster.


Post# 578117 , Reply# 2   2/25/2012 at 10:31 (1,029 days old) by joeekaitis (Rialto, California, USA)        

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Didn't the Westinghouse Laundromat have a drum that tilted for loading and agitation, then leaned forward to vertical for the spin? Were the mechanics too complicated and troublesome for it to remain in use in modern front-loaders?


Post# 578242 , Reply# 3   2/25/2012 at 19:51 (1,028 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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Can't say that I noticed a difference between my Duet with a 10 degree tilt and a regular European front loader.

Post# 578262 , Reply# 4   2/25/2012 at 22:29 (1,028 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

Westinghouse did sell horizontal and tilted washers. Tilted originally, horizontal later. But never one that shifted its axis. That would be complex and expensive with no real benefit.

The tilt axis is more convenient to load and unload.


Post# 578519 , Reply# 5   2/26/2012 at 18:47 (1,027 days old) by bingwsguy (Binghamton NY)        

glenfieldmathk1 and logixx- I have noiced that smaller loads (no matter what they are comprised of) in the "tilted" Siemens Ultra Sense do work better. I can wash more in the Bosch Axxis+ without any issues... funny since it's almost 1 1/2 cu ft smaller. My Mom's Duet seemed to have no issues even though it had a tilted drum. Had wondered if anyone else noticed what I did.

Post# 578616 , Reply# 6   2/27/2012 at 07:42 (1,027 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Tilted FL Washers

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Do seem to have more balance problems, but the real problem is light to SEVERE tangling with a tilted tub. The only reason to tilt the tub is it makes loading and unloading easier and makes the machine more attractive to buyers worried about bending over to load and unload. No serious FL washer would ever be built with a tilted tub and I would never buy one.


Post# 578645 , Reply# 7   2/27/2012 at 10:02 (1,027 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
The comments are fascinating

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especially after reading the Westinghouse patents.

I wonder if I can quote Doctrine when I get home tonight....hmm


Post# 578673 , Reply# 8   2/27/2012 at 11:25 (1,027 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill - Home of the Railway Trials. Lancashire. UK)        
Hhmmmm

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I`m sure the Hoover doctrine can quote different as well!!!

Having used the first of the Keymatic tilted drums, I must say it tends to balance heavy unusual loads very well, IMHO its nothing to do with tilted drums as to how they spin best, its how the suspension works as well, tilted drums work best with the drum hung from the top cabinet by heavy springs and cast weights.....

Also when the spinning laundry is pinned more to the back of the drum in the tilted drum, the spinning weight is nearer the low point or fulcrum of the drives energy...I wonder if that helps??, whereas a horizontal level drum has a spinning weight further away from the energy point...AND if its not "Spirit Level" and tilting forward then more of the weight is right at the front (or furthest point) of the drive energy...

Its like a top loading spin dryer when clothes are packed evenly lower and tighter near the base then they tend to spin better and not OOB..

Does that make sense or have I been having too many hot toddies...!!



Post# 578870 , Reply# 9   2/27/2012 at 23:42 (1,026 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

It does make sense. Shaft being the fulcrum, farther from that increases moment.

However, having watched/used the slant Westinghouse for years and the horizontal Frigiwhite since 1998 I really see little appreciable difference between them except how far I have to squat down to unload the horizontal drum.


Post# 578959 , Reply# 10   2/28/2012 at 08:16 (1,026 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Very good point Mike

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The moment is reduced the closer the load is to the shaft-(driving member). Westinghouse actually designed the front loaders to tilt down to the horizontal when loaded with clothes and water. And as it drained the tub tilts back up for spin just so that the load is distributed across the dome at the back near the shaft!

Its all in their patents.


Post# 579009 , Reply# 11   2/28/2012 at 12:03 (1,026 days old) by RevvinKevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        

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I have a 2009 KM Elite FL (and a MT Neptune FL) with the tilted drum and I completely agree with John (Combo52) on the tangling problem.   The Neptune FL doesn't seem to tangle as much the KM Elite, but it has happened.  Maybe because it uses a lot more water?  

 

My dad lives with me so I do his laundry every week.   Between his long sleeve shirts, PJ's and pants, I ALWAYS have to stop the KM Elite washer and untie the knot ball at least once, if not twice during the cycle.   When I see it taking a long time trying to balance and re-balance, I know it's time to untangle the knot-ball again.    (I try to avoid washing these items in the '55 Unimatic for the same reason.)

 

Kevin


Post# 579022 , Reply# 12   2/28/2012 at 12:46 (1,026 days old) by mixfinder (Stuart Mountains)        
Not Convinced

mixfinder's profile picture
The Neptune faithfully washed for 12 years and never had a balance issue nor do I recall major tangling problems. The rotten Whirpool we bought has yet to spin a load without hours of sensing/sensing/sensing. We've had three service calls and all three say nothing's wrong. Whirlpool and Albert Lee, the retailer have instructed the repair entity, The Appliance Hospital (sounds professional) to replace the chip(s) controlling spin and balance, maintaining all other Whirlpools spin fine even when unbalanced. Our experience casts our vote for a tilted tub.

Post# 579081 , Reply# 13   2/28/2012 at 16:42 (1,026 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

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I have owned two tilted drum machines, a Zanussi IZ 1600rpm, and a Panasonic 1600rpm. Both have been wonderfully stable on spin and not danced across the suspended kitchen floors.

On the other hand a perfectly horizontal drum AEG 1600rpm continually shifted its position due to vibration on spin. And my mum's Horizontal drum Bosch loupes about if the drum is out of balance - quite badly I might add.

I was very happy with the Zanussi compared to the AEG. On that basis, I looked for a tilted drum machine. Thank heavens Panasonic made one.





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