| Thread Number: 39994
Glimpses of the future or gimmicks that'll fade into obscurity? |
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Post# 592144 4/25/2012 at 19:51 (394 days old) by joeekaitis  (Rialto, California, USA) |
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  I'm posting this here because it's as much about vintage as modern dishwashers. Wash tubes, spinning racks, "water blades" and other self-styled "dishwasher of the future" designs have come and gone, but the good ol' spray arm soldiers on. Kenmore and Frigidaire aren't abandoning it but two modifications of the lower spray arm in their Elite and Gallery dishwashers respectively have an air of gimmickry, given that most Consumer Reports "Best Buy" rated models earn their blue check-marks without 'em. Kenmore calls theirs target=new>360 PowerWash Technology and your humble observer can already see a potential point-of-failure. That exposed gear drive is just waiting to be jammed by, say, an overlooked pinto bean, stopping the magic motion and resulting in a load you have to wash again. Not to be out-gimmicked, er, uh, outdone, Frigidaire offers target=new> Orbit Clean. The blue spinner sprayer appears to be pressure-driven, but that means it would be the first part to feel the effect of a pressure drop due to motor aging or impeller wear. Both designs overlook the fact that water, like sound, ricochets all around. Load any dishwasher properly and every load comes out sparkling. They're solutions in search of a problem. Like the designs mentioned in the first paragraph, wait 10 years and see if any become commonplace through reverse engineering or as patents expire. My prediction: they'll all have been replaced by something else in top-o'-the-line models and they still won't clean any better. | ||
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Post# 592219 , Reply# 1 4/26/2012 at 01:47 (394 days old) by qualin (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) |
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Post# 592220 , Reply# 2 4/26/2012 at 01:49 (394 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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Both of those could be jammed by a fallen utensil!They are interesting to watch.Again the doors on the machines should be transparent so you could be entertained.and you would be able to see if the sprayers were jammed by a pinto bean or untensil. | ||
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Post# 592246 , Reply# 4 4/26/2012 at 05:15 (394 days old) by DishwasherRules (Italy) |
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 Frigidaire's Orbit Clean is just the same gimmick featured by the European Electrolux and Zanussi's dishwasher range and is named FlexiSpray: I know that Electrolux own Frigidaire in the US, but according to me Orbit Clean/FlexiSpray is just a redisign of the washing technology of the "dynamic" dishwashers produced by Zanussi in the 60s (I have something on that, I'll try to post some scans here later). If I lived in the US and had to buy a new dishwasher, I'd go for a Kenmore 360 PowerWash!! Ivan | ||
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Post# 592260 , Reply# 7 4/26/2012 at 06:12 (394 days old) by vacbear58 (London UK) |
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| Post# 592279 , Reply# 8 4/26/2012 at 07:33 (394 days old) by dj-gabriele (Bologna (ITALY)) | ||
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I currently have a SMEG with the orbital system and an Indesit without, the SMEG definitely cleans much better than the Indesit machine so at least in my opinion it's not a complete gimmick! The difference is not as visible in the corners as it is on the sides of tall pans! | ||
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Post# 592287 , Reply# 9 4/26/2012 at 08:07 (394 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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 I was particularly struck by the language used in the video. It "blasts" dishes with water? The video showed what looked to be a very gentle rain shower! Now, a blast of water would be the single spray arm of a KDS-16. Heck, even the WP/KM Power Clean/Ultra Wash was a blast compared to what I saw in that video.
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| Post# 592330 , Reply# 10 4/26/2012 at 11:55 (394 days old) by dj-gabriele (Bologna (ITALY)) | ||
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Yeah, more pissing than anything else indeed :) | ||
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Post# 592332 , Reply# 11 4/26/2012 at 12:05 (394 days old) by jaxsunst (Memphis, Tennessee) |
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Post# 592336 , Reply# 12 4/26/2012 at 12:13 (394 days old) by william637 (Durham, NC) |
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 It is an interesting concept - didn't Frigidaire have a similar system in the 70's?
In the video demonstrations I have seen, there are two problems with the 360 power wash. A) there is not enough pressure/velocity to scour dishes (all it will do is mist and soak them). B) the entire spray arm moves far too quickly (a moving spray arm on yet another moving spray arm means the weak spray never has period where it is "scrubbing" a surface). These machines are about as effective as getting your fingertips wet and flinging water at your dishes. Sure, if the water is hot enough and you flick long enough, you will be able to rinse some residues away - but you aren't going to clean really dirty things that way. | ||
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Post# 592359 , Reply# 13 4/26/2012 at 14:30 (394 days old) by brummybear (Birmingham uk) |
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Post# 592431 , Reply# 14 4/27/2012 at 00:11 (393 days old) by qualin (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) |
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| Post# 592445 , Reply# 15 4/27/2012 at 03:39 (393 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
 Mark, you are so right, that little gentle rainshower from the anemic new motors is laughable in comparison with the typhoon force blasting from a vintage KitchenAid or Maytag Reverse Rack!!
As far as lower spray arms not rotating in a purely circular manner, that is about 30 year old technology. GE's Multi-Orbit wash arm came out in the early 80's. In the early 90's they had a variation called the Smart Wash arm which had smaller independent little wash arms at the end of the main arm. It seems the multi-orbit designs are for better coverage and have little to do with actual scrubbing ability. Water pressure ("force") and volume play the largest role in scrubbability. The anemic little rainshower, I saw in both videos, explains why a 30 year old GE, Maytag or KitchenAid can do in 45 minutes, what many modern machines can't do in 3 hours. If you have a big dinner party, you could have three loads done in, let's say a GE Multi-Orbit 2800, in less time than you could do one load in many of these toy-motored modern machines. I would step out on a limb and say odds are the pots and pans would be a lot cleaner, too. If your modern machine was also one of the newer ones without a built-in food disposer, you would also have a pile of garbage in the bottom of the machine when the cycle is done. It's a great feeling to know that every drop of water, that washed and rinsed the dishes you eat off of, was filtered through garbage. I thought technology was supposed to move forward, not backward. | ||
| Post# 592540 , Reply# 17 4/27/2012 at 17:53 (392 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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Some, but not all, of the newer dishwashers actually use the same amount of water, per fill, as their older counterparts. The way some of the manufacturers have reduced water consumption is to have only 4 or sometimes just 3 water changes. I have a newer Maytag than does this.
So cases like these, there is no problem of overpumping the sump, there is as much water in the bottom of the tub as ever. So they have gone to these toy motor powered pumps not to stop overpumping, but to reduce power consumption, and get an Energy Star rating. Hence, you ge the tinkle shower, like you saw in the videos, as opposed to the hurricanic force power jets of the Maytag RR, the Whirlpool PowerClean module or the early Kitchen-Aids. What it appears they have done, to make up (or attempted to make up) for these anemic water forces and lack of water changes, is to increase cycle times. For most machines I have looked at 2 to three hours seems the norm. Of course, we all have seen the dreaded new Whirlpools with the laughable overnight cycle that is still trying to finish your dinner dishes while you are eating breakfast. | ||
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Post# 592617 , Reply# 19 4/28/2012 at 07:43 (392 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md) |
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1
 These are very sound ways of helping move water around inside a DW and past uses of this technolgy caused almost no service problems.
F&P dish drawers like all DWs ever made have sumps where the water collects as it renters the pump. And yes F&P DWs [ like all DWs ever made can do a good job cleaning dishes ] But they have one of the worst sump traps of any DW currently made in that they collect almost all of the food particles and hold it in the machine for you to clean out. And of coerce all the water your dishes are rinsed with is pulled through this garbage.
I know of almost no DW made in the last 10 years that still fills with at least two gallons of water per fill. as a result manufacturers have had to slow down the pumps power because so much water would be in the air that the pump would surge and starve for water.
MT RR DWs actually moved very little water compared to almost all other US machines of the same time period. They used very fine hi pressure jets with good filtering to achieve great cleaning. But if your ever saw one running next to a KA or WP there was no comparison in over all water movement.
To me the biggest gimmick today is the WP built DW with the dedicated Turbo-Zone area in the back of the lower rack or the dedicated silver-ware shower. The last thing I want to worry about when loading a DW is trying to put ONE very dirty item in a particular spot. I want to be able to load the machine in the most sensible way and get every thing clean, NOT just one really dirty item. When I make a large meal I often have at least a half dozen very dirty utensils from the cook-top or oven to deal with. | ||
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Post# 592731 , Reply# 22 4/28/2012 at 19:50 (391 days old) by petek (Sarnia Ontario) |
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| Post# 592838 , Reply# 24 4/29/2012 at 09:59 (391 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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washer111
That's interesting about garbage diposals not being common your country. It might be interesting to do a web search of your local laws. It may be that they are not illegal, but just an uncommon appliance. If they are illegal, it might be due to some politician's idea that they couldt overtax the sewage system. They were actually invented to cut down on disease tranmission by putting garbage down the drain that would otherwise attract and be a breeding ground for vermin (rodents, maggots, flies, bacteria) in trash cans and dump grounds. I doubt if it is a safety concern that would make them illegal. I would step out on a limb and say disposers are most likely one of the safest appliances ever made. A common misconception is that there are spinning blades in the grind chamber, which there are not. If you look inside a unit, you'll see a turntable, and on the periphery of the turntable, are impellers. The cutting edges are stationary and mounted around the lower circumference of the grind chamber. Let's say you drop a bananna peel in. It hits the turntable and centrifugal force takes it on a little ride to the impeller (which is blunt, no sharpness) and holds it against the cutters which shred it as it goes around. Kinda like if you hade a bunch of people on a merry-go-round and turned up the rpm to 1725. the people would go flying off at the periphery. Think of the horses around the edge of the merry-go-round as impellers. (sometimes impellers are fixed, and are little more than protrusions in the turntable, sometimes they swivel to help avoid jams.) You could stick your finger in an operating disposal and touch the center of the rotating turntable, with no danger. Not that I would recommend it, because if you got off center you might get nicked by a rind flipper or the edge of the impeller. The point is, I have seen other people who think disposers are dangerous. My cousin's wife would not allow the builder to put one in their home as she was afraid someone would lose a hand. If you wanted to hurt yourself in a disposer, you would actually have to make an effort to do so. If someone is really that afraid, they make "batch-feed" models which only start when you place the cover in the sink opening. Electrocution?? No more than any appliance that uses electricity and water. Your washer, dishwasher, whirlpool tub, etc. In a dishwasher and hot water tank you even have an heating electrically charged heating element immersed in water. Disposers must be grounded. And in houses with metal plumbing you have even a third level of safety (electrical neutral first level, ground wire second level and grounded metal plumbing third level.) Even if all three levels failed you yourself would have to be ground to make the current flow through you if there should be an electrical fault. Check you local codes and see if disposers are legal. If not, get one. You will love it, I guarantee!!! | ||
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Post# 593087 , Reply# 27 4/30/2012 at 09:28 (390 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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| Post# 593104 , Reply# 28 4/30/2012 at 10:44 (390 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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In general, Disposers do not cause drain clogs, but poor plumbing does.
In the U.S., I must say we do have good plumbing codes, and any home built in the last 30 to 40 years will not experience any clogs from a food waste disposer unless the plumber did something stupid. Modern plumbing uses 1 and a 1/2 inch drain pipes under the sink, 2 inches for the main branch lines and 4 inch trunk lines. With the force that diposers shove waste through the line, trust me, there will not be a clog. The only exception I have seen, once again is due to plumber stupidity (or I should say cheapness.) I have bought two new home where the plumber, hired by the builder, used a disposer "T" pipe. If you go to a home improvement store you can often find these in a disposer installation kit, as they are designed for the homeowner who is basically ignorant of plumbing methods. It is a tailpipe that is under one side of the sink that has an opening on the side so you can pipe a disposer straight into it from the other side of the sink. If you look inside of this pipe, you will see a deflector. So when the waste goes into the pipe from the disposal, it is immediately forced to make a 90 degree turn and shoot down the drain. You only have a 1 1/2 inch pipe and the deflector forces the wastes to make an immediate 90 degree turn in only half of that space. So you are forcing large volumes of food waste to make an instant 90 degree turn in only a 3/4 inch opening. Needless to say, this is the point of clogging...especially with fibrous waste. It's bad enough for a consumer to be stupid enough to use one of these "drain pipes for idiots", but there is no excuse for a professional to use one. Oftentimes, builders hire plumbers who are the cheapest. A disposer "T" saves the plumber maybe a couple of dollars (max) of piping and a lot of time. So they do the quickest, cheapest, easiest thing they can then do on to the next job. Sad, isn't it. The other sad thing is when they do this, they have to mount the disposer so the waste pipe exits from the side. Since disposer are made, by the manufacturer with the exit pipe in the rear of the machine, the plmber has to rotate the disposer forty-five degrees. So when you look under the sink, it's an ugly and unprofessional sight. You are not looking at the front of the machine, which was designed to face out. You are looking at an ugly sight of a machine whose logo can't be read and looking at a waste piple that should be hidden and now is in full view, sticking straight out the side of the machine. So when the homeowner gets a clog, and they most likely will. they blame the disposer. It has nothing to do with the disposer it is due to human stupidity of the plumber or ignorant homeowner that chose the cheap, unprofessional and utterly assinine way to mount a precision piece of equipment. Most manufacturer's literature, that I have seen, specifically says NOT to mount their disposal in that manner. If a person's I.Q. is not high enough to realize that a sharp 90 turn in a constricted environment is likely to cause problems, they are not intelligent enough to own a disposer. They should just buy a pig and keep it outside their back door and throw scraps to it. Since someone stupid enough to have a disposer mounted that way is stupid enough to rinse dishes before putting them in a dishwasher, they might as well lay their soiled dishes on the ground and let the pig lick them before loading them into the dishwasher. It would save a lot of water. Even better, they can put the dishes right back into the cabinet after the pig licks them clean. This would be very "green" and conserve our natural resources. And the pig might, just might, meet our government's Energy Star requirements. Okay, I am just having a little fun with sarcasm and exaggeration today. But it is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine (as you probably noticed) to have people blame an appliance when the problem actually lies with the installer or user. | ||
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Post# 593110 , Reply# 30 4/30/2012 at 11:27 (390 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney) |
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Most appliance and kitchen retailers offer Insinkerators as part of their appliance line up. They are not hard to find and readily available. | ||
| Post# 593111 , Reply# 31 4/30/2012 at 11:32 (390 days old) by dj-gabriele (Bologna (ITALY)) | ||
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Oh, they are, simply aren't that common as elsewhere. As an example here you could buy them from Whirlpool, GE, Insinkerator but also from Nardi (Italian brand), Foster (another Italian brand). And prices start at around 150 euros and up to 700! | ||
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Post# 593205 , Reply# 35 4/30/2012 at 18:51 (389 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md) |
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Disposers are good for plumbing systems as they help keep the drains clean with all the ground matter. Here in Washington DC Disposers are REQUIRED in all home kitchens and commercial food establishments. If waste water is properly treated disposers are GOOD for the environment as the collected materiel decomposes quickly and is returned to use as fertilizer. Disposers are also a good thing for septic systems as it adds greatly to the amount of beneficial material that goes into the septic tank.
Disposers are similar to the back-flush self-cleaning lint filters that WP-KM used on their washers for over 25 years in that they actually helped keep laundry drains clean with the scrubbing effect of lint being flushed down all at once. | ||
| Post# 593342 , Reply# 38 5/1/2012 at 09:44 (389 days old) by dj-gabriele (Bologna (ITALY)) | ||
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Here's the relevant English page. You can scroll the manual and read it in English if you want! The "tappo convogliatore" is just a conveyor to help press the stuff in the disposer. CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK | ||
| Post# 593372 , Reply# 39 5/1/2012 at 11:33 (389 days old) by firedome (NY & VT) | ||
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Post# 593532 , Reply# 40 5/2/2012 at 00:56 (388 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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Better to have the food waste go down the disposer than go into the solid waste stream. | ||
| Post# 593636 , Reply# 42 5/2/2012 at 10:54 (388 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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Yes, I agree with Rex. As mentioned earlier, the whole idea behind food waste disposers, was for sanitation reasons. Stop rodents, maggots, larvae bacteria, from multiplyng in trash cans and dumps--and breaking one chain of disease transmission.
Maybe a little less necessary, but nevertheless desireable, if the avoidance of the stink of putrifying garbage in cans and dumpsites You would think we lived in the 17th century, with people still putting organic waste out in the open when we have the means to get rid of it cleanly, and beneficially, to the environment. Organic wastes, after being processed from a sewage treatment plant, I hear, is sometimes used for fertilizer for parks, city vegetation, etc. Yeak, it might cost a little more the sewage treatment plant, if everyone were required to have a disposer, but isn't that s much smaller price to pay by society to help avoid disease within its members. There's a lot to be said for the aesthetics to, with the reduction of solid wastes and odors. Aesthetic value is also one of the visible hallmarks of a society higher that's higher on the evolutionary scale. | ||
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Post# 593751 , Reply# 43 5/2/2012 at 19:07 (387 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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"So How do self cleaning filters work? Do they use 4L of water to flush away dirt at the end of wash, 1st rinse, 2nd rinse etc?"
As you can see from my very professional drawing [insert dramatic pause here], self-cleaning filters use two streams of water. During washing and rinsing, water flows through the filter - shown by the darker blue lines. Soil collects on the filter's surface. During draining, the wash/rinse water is flushed along the surface of the filter, carrying the soil away and down the drain. 
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| Post# 593775 , Reply# 44 5/2/2012 at 22:14 (387 days old) by wayupnorth (Maine - Vacationland ) | ||
 I get the plastic bags (yes) when I buy groceries and save them for either recycling glass and cans or garbage and throw them all into our weekly collection bins. I have an uphill septic pump and would never put a disposal that could cause problems with the pump or system and was advised to only use one ply white toilet paper. So far, almost 18 years and no problems, knock on wood. I would like to work out a way to drain the Maytag's 40 gallons of water every load into the woods around me.
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| Post# 593853 , Reply# 47 5/3/2012 at 08:41 (387 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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Hi Washer111,
The early GE self cleaning filter, on the Potscrubbers, was somewhat unique. It is not a full time filter like most brands in the 80's. That is 100 precent of the water in the tub is not being actively pumped through a filter and cleaned. The filter is in the back of the tub and is "passive." that is, it relies on catching some of the water that is heading back to the bottom of the tub and filtering it. Most of this wataer has hit the back wall of the tub and flows down into the filter through large openings on top. It water exits the filter through a small screen (looks just like window screen!) at the bottom, and leaves the food wastes inside the filter. There is a little chamber at the bottom of the filter where the food wastes collect. When the dishwsher drains, the water pressure from the drain water pushed up a plunger which seals the top of the collection chamber and the food wastes arae forced out into the drain line. And Voila! You have a clean filter, ready to go again for the next fill. During the long (main) wash, which is about 45 minutes or so probably most of the water, is "caught" and eventually passes through the filter at some time or another as it circulates. No, its not as efficient as say a KitchenAid or Maytag where every drop of water has to pass through the filter before entering the pump. But is is a clever design, cheap for General Electric to add to their existing dishwasher without very little modification to the pumping system. (Actually just a splice into the drain line.) But they could now advertise they have filtering and compete against other brands. It reality, though, it does work. One on of my low line Potscrubbers, the little plunger got stuck and the chamber would not empty, Believe me, there was a LOT of food waste crud in there! Attached is a picture of the passive filter in my GSD 2800. Sorry about the photo quality. You can see the larger grate openings at the top where water is caught. In the lower center is the exit screen. Beneath the little protrusion in the center (partially hidden by the power tower) is the opening to the soil chamber below the tub. 
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Post# 594028 , Reply# 49 5/3/2012 at 19:33 (386 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md) |
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GE was actually ahead of it time as Barry mentioned, most other DWs went to a filter that does not filter all the water constantly. During that 45 minute wash GE used you can be sure all the wash water is filtered many many times. And as I mentioned in another post the problem with the old KAs and the original MT RR DWs is that the filter can clog and block all most all wash action. The WP PC design and KA KD-23s was the first really effective filter system that could not clog and slow down the wash action. And to this day was the most effective, powerful pump and filtering and food disposing system EVER installed in a home DW. | ||
| Post# 594037 , Reply# 50 5/3/2012 at 20:28 (386 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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Yeah, I agree John that was the biggest problem with the KitchenAids. My parents had one, I think it was a 1982 model and over a period of several years, washing efficiency dropped. I always suspected it was the filter clogging as it was not slef-cleaning like the Maytags.
If I recall correctly, the filter was somewhat thick. I did rinse it under the tap, but I imagine there was material collecting in the inner depths of the filter. Did the first Maytag Reverse Racks not have that backwash feature for their filters? Mine is a belt drive, approximately a 1984 model. I took it apart and it has two rotating jet arms that constanting spray water from the inside out of the filter, and they rotate within it, giving it a constant "backwash." | ||
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Post# 594138 , Reply# 51 5/4/2012 at 10:39 (386 days old) by joeekaitis (Rialto, California, USA) |
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Post# 594140 , Reply# 52 5/4/2012 at 11:13 (386 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md) |
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| Post# 594147 , Reply# 53 5/4/2012 at 11:46 (386 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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John,
Were the pump/motor in orginal Maytag RR, with the direct drive, mounted horizonally or vertically?? If I recall correctly, some pictures I saw on this site, or somewhere, the original RR had heavy mastic all over the tub. All the ones I have had, only had one piece of sound absorbing mastic on the back of the tub. | ||
| Post# 594380 , Reply# 56 5/5/2012 at 09:23 (385 days old) by bwoods (Oak Ridge, Tennessee (formerly Dayton, Ohio)) | ||
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actually, Washer111, there is a jet on the bottom of the bottom of the lower spray arm that backwashes that screen in the center of the filter and keeps it clean.
So as to not make for a too long explanation, there was one other early feature, that was later dropped on the passive filter, that I did not mention. In the picture I posted, in that protrusion in the lower center (partially hidden by the washarm) is a small opening sealed with a round rubber flapper. So I have attached a new close-up of it. When the piston goes up, to seal off the lower soil chamber and allow the water to flush it, the top of it pushes open this little flapper and drains any residual water/gunk into the sump for drainage. GE later dropped this little flapper valve as, I guess, they found it unnecessary. So it sounds as if may have been close to what you were describing, Washer111. Good job! 
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Post# 594442 , Reply# 57 5/5/2012 at 17:42 (384 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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washer111, fast-forward to about 7:30. This educational video from a German children's TV show shows a Miele dishwasher draining (and cleaning) the filter system.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK | ||
| Post# 594454 , Reply# 59 5/5/2012 at 18:55 (384 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK) | ||
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| Post# 594457 , Reply# 60 5/5/2012 at 18:59 (384 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK) | ||
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Post# 596226 , Reply# 61 5/13/2012 at 17:43 (376 days old) by AutoWasherFreak (Davenport, Iowa) |
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Post# 596237 , Reply# 62 5/13/2012 at 18:43 (376 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts) |
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Post# 597022 , Reply# 63 5/17/2012 at 09:37 (373 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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