Thread Number: 40479
Why did Maytag eliminate the Dependable Care Line? |
[Down to Last] |
|
Post# 598944 , Reply# 1   5/25/2012 at 19:43 (4,324 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
5    
This could be a long discussion and I hope that others ofter their take on this. MT started to phase out the HD DC [ helical drive - dependable care ] machines in favor of the Norge and Amana designs for several reasons.
One they were cheaper to build.
Two they performed much better than the HD DC machines almost all ways, consumers liked the new MTs much better.
Three MTs conservative right wing anti-union management was tiring to cut costs by moving production to non-union factories.
And MT actually never stopped making the HD DC washers, they did not go out of production till MT sold out to WP. I believe they would have stayed in production for many more years for the older mom and pop dealers and for the Commercial side as they knew that the ATs and HTs were inferior in durability. |
Post# 598953 , Reply# 3   5/25/2012 at 21:27 (4,324 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
At the end, the Dependable Care machines that came out of the Newton IA plant all had model numbers that began with the prefix "LAT". In the repair and parts industry these machines are known as "Newton" platform Maytags. With the exception of the major transmission re-design in 1988, these machines were largely unchanged from 1957 until 2006.
The Performa & Atlantis lines are usually referred to as "Herrin/Norge" platform machines. The majority of these machines had the model prefix of "MAV" or "PAV" |
Post# 598986 , Reply# 4   5/26/2012 at 00:30 (4,324 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
...although they screwed up plenty of things, this wasn't one of them.
The Dependable Care machines were in production until after the Whirlpool takeover of Maytag. It simply didn't make sense for Whirlpool to have more than one design of toploader in production when the average consumer didn't know the difference and didn't care. |
Post# 599000 , Reply# 5   5/26/2012 at 01:37 (4,324 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
|
Post# 599094 , Reply# 6   5/26/2012 at 16:06 (4,323 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
So Maytag eliminated the line because they were bought by Whirlpool.....who eliminated it so that they could use their same design on Maytag .......buy a Maytag brand and get a Whirlpool........buy a Kitchen Aid brand and get a Whirlpool because consumers are idiots. |
Post# 599264 , Reply# 8   5/27/2012 at 13:23 (4,322 days old) by kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Well it was a superior design in some respects. The drawbacks to it from a production and sales standpoint were considerable.
1. The DC machines were being made in a union shop. I don't think the WP machines were. 2. The design uses quite a lot of steel and aluminum and is heavy! That's an expense issue for materials, labor and shipping. It also raises the final price tag. 3. The DC design was pretty much maxed out capacity-wise at 19 gallons without a major redesign which also means a major factory retooling. The WP machines had larger tubs (22-ish IIRC) which was a selling point. 4. The WP machine is MUCH easier to do major service on in the field. The motor and pump can be changed by laying the machine on its side. The entire drivetrain can be removed from the same position in another 10 minutes. Once that is out you have access to the spin clutch/brake. So, as has been mentioned here, the quality across the whole "Maytag" line actually went up when the Herrin/Norge machines were pulled from the line and everything that said "Maytag" was actually a DD WP machine. That said, I LOVE the DC machines. Between the my personal collection, the condo bldg I manage and the machines on the family farm I "oversee" 4 DC Maytags, 1 DD WP, 1 BD Kenmore, and 2 Herrin/Norge Maytags. I will only perform the most rudimentary of service on the Herrin/Norge Machines. When they have major issues they will be replaced with refurbished DC machines. One of the biggest service issues with the late model DC Maytags was the tub bearing/seal redesign. The last design was not nearly as robust as the earlier ones and that is often what fails first. |
Post# 599307 , Reply# 10   5/27/2012 at 17:48 (4,322 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
Helical refers specifically and only to the transmission drive shaft under the base, which has a spiral (helix) cut in it on which the drive pulley rides down on the shaft for agitation (tub brake set, the shaft turns the transmission interior gears for agitation) or up on the shaft for spin (tub brake released, the transmission exterior housing + basket lock and rotate together). The orbital and non-orbital (aka pitman or Newton) transmissions are *both* helical-drive. Orbital refers to a different internal gearing design for converting the motor's rotation to agitator oscillation. |
Post# 599325 , Reply# 11   5/27/2012 at 19:47 (4,322 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
While the DC washers were very reliable machines and good overall there time had passed. And while WP did technically kill the MT DC washers that MT had been trying to do so for over ten years. If MTs management had improved and redesigned the Helical washer it could have remained a viable washer a lot longer. WP very correctly did not consider keeping the DC machine a day longer than necessary to do an orderly shut down of the factory after they took control of MT.
Yes the DC washer was a very good machine overall and had the longest run of any US washer design in history, almost 60 years. But it was never a top performer in capacity, cleaning, linting, rinsing, sand disposal, water extraction and it was the last TL automatic washer built in the US that didn't have self-leveling rear legs and still had an antiquated off - balance switch that could cause the user to make two extra trips back to the basement for each load of wash.
The MT DC washer was a little like a 1955-7 Chevy, a 1960s Dodge Dart or a Volvo 240, all very reliable cars in there day but it would make absolutely no scene to be building any of these cars today.
Hi Mark, WPs factories are all completely unionized in this country. In fact most major appliance plants in the US are unionized. The problem for MT was as you are automating an older plant it is hard to get rid of older employes and that leaves them with older less productive employees. Unions are great over all when the industry is growing and this is where MT went so wrong buy buying Norge and Amana instead of reinvesting in their own factories like WP did when they came out with the DD and the Calypso. |
Post# 599342 , Reply# 12   5/27/2012 at 21:01 (4,322 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 599377 , Reply# 14   5/27/2012 at 23:19 (4,322 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
Having both Maytags and a Volvo 240 in my current stable (and for may years in the past as well) I can say that they can certainly perform in today's world. Classic MT washers were never top performers in anything other than durability, but how many folks need top performance at all times in all categories? I don't roll in mud every day and my clothes aren't caked with grime. I consider this to be normal laundry for me and in that case, the MT performs just fine when loaded properly.
If Volvo still made the 240, I'd buy one without so much as a test drive. I've restored the suspension on my '87 (the engine and transmission run like Swiss watches) and nothing else drives like it. Unlike more modern cars, I have great viability and small blind spots. The handling is great. It will never compete in a slalom, but it's rock-stable on the road and handles every curve I dare throw at it. It's underpowered, but I'm not competing in a drag race. Once I get up to speed, I can drive all day with confidence, economy, and comfort. Being in the appliance parts biz, I can compare the MT Dependable Care washers to the WP Direct Drives (their closest competition). The DC is easy to service, provided that service consists of replacing the belts. The MT will stand up to FAR more abuse than the WP, one of the reasons why so many property managers like the MT as opposed to the WP. The WP is generally easier to service, but it's likely to need service more frequently. The WP has a larger capacity, but no matter what the capacity is, people will overload them. I also see many WPs with worn out and broken suspension springs. I don't see that in the MT washers. If I were to buy a washer for the home and knew how to use it properly, I might consider the WP Direct Drive. If it's a washer I'd be putting in a laundromat or a communal laundry facility, I'd go with the MT. The MT might go down for a day or two occasionally, but the WP would go down more often, but be quicker to fix. (How many service calls would you like to run? One big one, or several small ones?) If there was a superior product today, I'd buy it. Dave |
Post# 599383 , Reply# 15   5/28/2012 at 00:09 (4,322 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
Or rather Consumer Reports:
Maytag vs Whirlpool For 1985: Maytag A170 - Gave better than average results in all cycles for both hot water and overall water efficency (Regular, Permanent-press). Excellent eletricity usage.Worse than average on unbalanced loads. Average water extraction, freedom from lint and sand disposal. Excellent for noise and brand repair history. Whirlpool LA5800XM - Matched Maytag in cycle results as above. Average in electricity use but handled unbalanced loads better than Maytag (CR gave it a better than average rating), tub capacity was also rated the same. Water extraction was less than average (one notch below Maytag's). Freedom from lint was better than average however sand disposal and noise were just average. Brand frequency of repair was rated "good" but Maytag again was excellent. Maytag (A712) again was CR's top choice in 1986 with Whirlpool (LA9800XM) coming in second. Indeed in every buying guide one has from 1984 through 1987, Maytag was the number one rated washing machine by CR. Just a bit of information. Do with it what you will. |
Post# 599476 , Reply# 17   5/28/2012 at 13:21 (4,321 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
Hi Laundress thanks for looking up those tests, I was mainly comparing MTs DC washers to the newer Norgetags and Amanatags that MT was trying to replace the DC machines with, also the two CR tests you listed of WP models were still both BD machines, things changed quite a bit by 1990 when the WP built DD machines were more reliable in CRs surveys. |
Post# 601493 , Reply# 20   6/6/2012 at 13:21 (4,312 days old) by joefuss1984 (Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 601728 , Reply# 22   6/7/2012 at 10:20 (4,311 days old) by joefuss1984 (Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 601729 , Reply# 23   6/7/2012 at 10:29 (4,311 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
MT had big problems with tub center seals from 1956-the early 1960s when they put a SS wear ring in the tub mounting stem instead of having the carbon ring ride directly on the aluminum mounting stem. After this time they had little problem until the early 1980s and it went down hill from there to the end. The entire seal design for both the spin seal and agitator shaft was never a great design, but they did get it to work for a long period of time. It will always be one of many weak points of the Dependable Care washers, like WP Belt Drive washers and GE FF washers it is easy to see why none of these machines could be built today, it would make no sense at all as the reliability of these otherwise great machines can't begin to compete with what they are building today. |
Post# 601798 , Reply# 25   6/7/2012 at 17:01 (4,311 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
Am I Missing something, probably yes.
The only way we will know how many of today's washers-dryers etc will last 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 years will be to stick around and see. I do know, because I was there selling MTs and WPs in the 70s and beyond and know how they have held up and now I am selling new machines today and they are holding up MUCH better than the appliances of the 60s and 70s did by a long shot.
Time will tell and if you or anyone else can PROVE otherwise or have a working crystal ball I am all ears. But just like most consumer products and automobiles there are far fewer problems and people are keeping these products far longer than ever. |
Post# 601805 , Reply# 26   6/7/2012 at 17:48 (4,311 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
John, I agree with you, on the whole, about newer appliances. The DD WP is, on the whole, more reliable and MUCH easier to repair than a DC Maytag. That said, I do love working on the old Maytag machines. I think we will have to agree to disagree about actual washing performance :)
One question I have: My mother bought a WP Duet Sport 3 years ago. About 6 months ago it started making a god-awful grinding sound during the spin. The experts were consulted and it was determined that her $800 washer needed $850 worth of repairs. Is this a fluke? Since it's in a room with a door that can be closed that's what she has been doing for the last 6 months. I expect to get a call any day that it is finally dead. At that point I will probably try to talk her into a Speed Queen AFN50F. The $1850 list is a bit intimidating, however. That said, adjusted for inflation, my Maytag A806 which was bought for $288 in 1967 would cost $1984 in 2012 dollars according to the CPI inflation adjuster. I did FINALLY prevail upon her about 2 months ago to let me replace her poorly functioning Maytag/Amana tall-tub DW with a lightly used 2007 true Kenmore UltraWash standard tub. She sings its praises every time we speak! :) Until that damned Maytag TT dishwasher the only dishwashers she knew were a 1976 WU601 and a 1997 Kenmore UltraWash. She now has a machine worthy of that tradition! |
Post# 601811 , Reply# 28   6/7/2012 at 19:08 (4,311 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
I have heard some people say on here that some BOL modern are actually more reliable, less things to break down I'm guessing. |
Post# 601897 , Reply# 31   6/8/2012 at 07:42 (4,311 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
To my knowledge, I think they are still being made, but for very low-end models. Wig Wags were not used on DDs, they were on the belt drives that came out before ;) |
Post# 601901 , Reply# 32   6/8/2012 at 08:49 (4,310 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Recent info told me that direct-drive machines are now discontinued on the consumer/domestic market, except for the topload stack sets. The latest "low-end" models have gone to the VMW belt-drive design. k1rod, two easy ways (there are others) to identify direct-drive machines: 1) the loading port is round instead of D-shaped; 2) there is no rear access panel. |
Post# 601954 , Reply# 34   6/8/2012 at 14:05 (4,310 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
DD machines do not meet the latest energy guidelines for water usage...I am VERY SORRY to see them discontinued in their present form. They are still available as a Maytag commercial "on premises" washer (meaning without a coin chute). |
Post# 601978 , Reply# 35   6/8/2012 at 16:28 (4,310 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Yeah, I think the only way to return them back to normal is if the damn treehugger regulations somewhat die down. It could happen, you never know.... |
Post# 601984 , Reply# 36   6/8/2012 at 17:30 (4,310 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
And California is around things aren't going to change, and may only get tighter.
Of the two California seems to have more influence due to the size of it's market. If you've got something to sell that wants moving in CA plus the rest of the country you have two options: make a special version for that one state and sell your other goods/products elsewhere, or simply make one version (the CA) and move it along elsewhere the best way possible. |
Post# 601990 , Reply# 37   6/8/2012 at 18:13 (4,310 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
It was time for these great machines to go and it had little to do with energy regulations and nothing to do with our Wonderful President. No one was a bigger backer of the DD washers than we were right from the beginning, by 1985 we were steering customers away from the BD WPs and pushing the new DD washers, as we could tell by the lower # of warranty calls that the DD machines were already more reliable than the BD washers.
The DD washer was an expensive machine to build [ it had a sand cast, cast iron transmission where the mold could only be used once ] it was old technology. It was also the most produced automatic washer ever with more than 100 Million built and it had a good 30 year run.
I have been to training on the new BD replacement and taken the machine completely apart and reassembled it and can say it is much better built than the DD washers and I predict it will last longer and have fewer repairs. In two years time our company has not done a single service call on one of these new washers, I think that is pretty impressive for an all new machine, time will tell. |
Post# 601993 , Reply# 38   6/8/2012 at 18:25 (4,310 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
@John Combo 52, You haven't had any calls on the new belt drive washer for the nut that holds the PLASTIC tranny pulley backing out??? Find that hard to believe... |
Post# 601996 , Reply# 39   6/8/2012 at 18:50 (4,310 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I have in all honesty heard of that and a few other problems, but we have not done a single service call on one. We probably will next week LOL, but we are a small company doing no more than 90 service calls per week divided among the three of us that are on the road 5 days a week. The service calls have always been pretty evenly divided between Washers, dryers, refrigerators, dishwashers, gas and electric ranges cook-tops and wall ovens and we still fix a lot of built-in microwaves and the OTR microwaves. |
Post# 891852 , Reply# 44   7/31/2016 at 18:03 (2,796 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 892626 , Reply# 45   8/5/2016 at 11:43 (2,791 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I still see them in Motel Laundry rooms. And a Laundromat near me still has them. My 2001 model is still running daily. |
Post# 892679 , Reply# 46   8/5/2016 at 22:14 (2,791 days old) by fan-of-fans (Florida)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I would guess mid-90s based on the white, but still squarish panel. |
Post# 892733 , Reply# 47   8/6/2016 at 11:48 (2,790 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
You mean newer machines have fewer manufacturing defects? I certainly believe that. IF you mean longevity I have a hard time believing that. Built in obsolescence is by design. Any dealer will tell you they are chucking out just as many broken post filter flo machines as they are chucking out vintage machines. Look at the dumpsters for that matter. 5-10 year old machines in even proportion with older ones. And as of late I see more modern than vintage.
|