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Thread Number: 40635
Dishwasher on cold water! |
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| Post# 601035 , Reply# 1 6/4/2012 at 22:10 (4,340 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida) | ||
Methinks that who ever installed the dishwasher put it on the wrong water line. Those dishwashers are not made for a cold water connection like a euro machine. I know with my Miele I can do a cold connection and in fact it loves a lower temp. I had set our water heater to have 145 degree water at the tap but my dishwasher didn't like it and I got error codes and it would kill the cycle and one code said to call for service. Since I lowered the water temp to 120 no issues at all. I will raise the water heater temp when I do laundry and then dial it down again when I am done.
But the GE machine should be on hot water line. The hotter the better. | ||
| Post# 601038 , Reply# 2 6/4/2012 at 22:37 (4,340 days old) by Spankomatic (Ukiah,CA) | ||
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Post# 601044 , Reply# 3 6/4/2012 at 23:03 (4,340 days old) by petek  (Ontari ari ari O ) |
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Post# 601093 , Reply# 5 6/5/2012 at 05:09 (4,340 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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| Post# 601098 , Reply# 6 6/5/2012 at 05:43 (4,340 days old) by chris74 () | ||
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Does this mean... ...US dishwashers don't have internal heating? I saw many pictures of them and most had the heating element unhidden in the tub... | ||
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Post# 601121 , Reply# 8 6/5/2012 at 07:30 (4,340 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Hot Water Fill DWs US DWs are designed to be connected only to a hot water line, DWs built since the early 1980s are all designed to run on incoming water temps as low as 120 degrees [ in some cases the user must select the correct cycle ] and all have booster heat.
We sometimes see cases where the machine inadvertently gets connected to the cold water supply or I have also seen cases where the installer thought that was the correct way to install the DW LOL. If I were the tenant I would insist that the landlord fix the plumbing.
I cannot believe that homes with solar water heaters would connect the DW to a cold water supply, that makes zero since if you have virtually free hot water to burn coal to generate expensive electricity and use that for heating the water to wash dishes. In the US the majority of homes have Natural Gas water heaters so again it makes more sence to use hot water from the water heater and let the DW do a slight boost rather than heating all the water the DW uses with expensive electricity. We now have the option of heat-pump water heaters here for folks that have to use electricity or oil to heat their hot water and of coerce Solar Water heaters are sometimes an option. | ||
| Post# 601237 , Reply# 9 6/5/2012 at 15:26 (4,340 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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US DW heating their own water would cause the Energy Star police to have a heart attack. They would end up giving the machine a lower energy rating. Never mind that the energy was still consumed by an external water heater they are not rating the heater they are rating the DW. | ||
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Post# 601252 , Reply# 10 6/5/2012 at 16:04 (4,340 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Ditto on what Jerrod says. This is also the reason why the Normal cycle on Miele US dishwashers does two prerinses - so that the dishload is sufficiently preheated by hot tap water before the (electrically) heated wash begins.
Also makes me wonder why Bosch doesn't finally introduce heat exchangers in their US line-up. This would help to compensate for the heat loss in the hot water line that occurs between the wash fill and the rinse fill. Alex | ||
| Post# 601306 , Reply# 12 6/5/2012 at 19:57 (4,340 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
me i use the cascade packs and they work better for cleaning than any liquid and sometime certain dishwasher models for the heater to activate they need a jump start i have a kenmore elite dishwasher the cycle i use is smart wash option turbozone high temp for wash on the first start as my dishwasher sense the load it also heats the water my mom in her summer home has a bosch dishwasher and in order for the heater to quick in she runs the hot water from the sink for at least 20 minutes then start the dishwasher and maybe the dishwasher your friend has was link by mistake to the cold water line of the sink or the heater might be defective depending on the year.
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Post# 601335 , Reply# 15 6/5/2012 at 21:44 (4,339 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Not Wishing To Sound Racist Or Like Suzanne SugarBaker
But switched hot and cold water connections are rampant any where or time Mexican or certain other immigrants from South America do the work. Dont know why but it happens all the time.
When we had our kitchen sink and other areas redone the contractor brought in all "day labour" Mexican help and sure enough when one went to use the kitchen sink left was "cold" and right was "hot". Since then have spoken to many other persons in our area and they say it happened to them as well under the same circumstances. The next plumbers hired (to put in the gas range) were from Poland and when we asked if they could correct the "error", they chuckled into their sleeves and were happy to oblige. One said he sees it all the time. Now one is not sure if taps are connected differently south of the border or what, but other than than cannot understand why this happens. | ||
| Post# 601358 , Reply# 16 6/5/2012 at 23:23 (4,339 days old) by Spankomatic (Ukiah,CA) | ||
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We can't use the cascade pacs because they leave a horri | ||
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Post# 601387 , Reply# 18 6/6/2012 at 04:06 (4,339 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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Cold water only !
I have never encountered a hot fill DW in the UK since the catering ones that are made to be connected to hot to help with recovery times.
All domestic machines have been cold fill only as most houses modern ones especially have no Hot Water storage tanks installed. Even in my old house where I am now the hot water tank has been removed and a Combi gas boiler heats the water on demand and the heating. For some strange reason they fitted it upstairs so any hot water required in the kitchen you have to draw off 8 litres before it gets warm as my dishdrawer only uses 7 litre per cycle connecting it to hot would waste water and yes here too we are metered so use the correct amount of cold water heat only whats needed same as the washing machine and that is that pay for what you use only far better. I am also of the opinion that cold water DW wash just as well as they wash longer to heat the water I use the normal cycle and it take 1 hr 42 mins the process is a cold pre wash followed by a 55c main wash a cold rinse then a 65c hot rinse that does the drying. The DW also has lower temp washes for delicate items like cut glass etc which would be impossible to achieve with hot intake. I in no way wish to insult/offend anyone from anywhere as I know our electricity being 230volt makes it easier to heat the water in the machine. Austin | ||
| Post# 601389 , Reply# 19 6/6/2012 at 04:23 (4,339 days old) by washer111 () | ||
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Sorry to be a little stupid but... How does voltage affect the water heating capability? Is there less "oomph" available to drive the heating element. Which leads me to ask, would you burn out a US electric heater by running it on 240v? | ||
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Post# 601490 , Reply# 20 6/6/2012 at 13:12 (4,339 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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Simple answer is.. | ||
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Post# 601546 , Reply# 22 6/6/2012 at 17:04 (4,339 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 My dishwasher bought 9 years ago (8 years 10 months) is rated for 367 kWh/year. I have the EnergyGuide tag. The scale on the tag ranges from 312 kWh to 573. The installation instructions direct for a 120°F water supply. The Normal cycle heats to 140°F wash and 150°F rinse. Selecting the reduced-energy option cuts the heating to 125°F. On-board water heating always functions if the fill temp is less than the target, there's no way to disable it. The tag does not state which cycle was used for the EnergyGuide rating. I run on what is essentially a tap-cold water supply. It may reach 90°F when the line is purged after two or three fills, but nowhere near 120°F. | ||
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Post# 601563 , Reply# 23 6/6/2012 at 17:46 (4,339 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Many Euro dishwasher manufacturers now heavily endorse connecting their machines to hot water. Miele even claims it to be a feature of their dishwashers, calling it ThermoSave. Technically, most dishwasher can be connected to hot water with some models being the exception. These would be dishwashers that use cold water for condensation drying, which basically includes most European Bosch units. Some of them now have an option to select in case of a hot water hook-up, which probably alters the drying portion of the cycle.
Alex | ||
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Post# 601591 , Reply# 24 6/6/2012 at 20:17 (4,339 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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IIRC Hertz/Frequency
Really only comes into play if the appliance also has a motor and or today computer/electronic controls. Older European appliances that had mechanical timers were brougth to these shores and apparently used (if those that show up on eBay and elsewhere are any judge), with little to nil effect. That being said one assumes some motors are more sensitive to being used at faster or slower frequency than listed on the rating plate. There is also many appliances right through the 1970's or so were designed with motors that could run on 50hz or 60hz.
Miele USA once explained to us why American appliances designed for 220v cannot run on "European" power of the same voltage and often vice versa. Much of it has to do with how Americans get their 220v power (two 120v lines) versus Europe (a single 220v line and neutral (IIRC)). Then there is also many American appliances even if rated for 220v have parts that run on 120v power so need both. On the otherside European appliances that require 220v power can often be run off American 220v system,again if the frequency difference does not cause problems. You can even run them off a voltage converter (step-up 120v to 220v) long as the total power draw does not exceed the rating for the converter and circut the power is being drawn from. Awhile back a company in Canada (EuroLine) sold AEG washing machines and dryers to the North American market. Though they ran on strict 220v/50hz power Euroline provided installation directions (they shipped the things south to the USA,one had to take things from there)and IIRC posts over on THS/Appliance forum more than a few were sold and the units worked fine. My Pfaff ironer was brought to these shores from Europe by the previous owner's mother and used until the day we made the purchase. It was connected to and has an American 220v "dryer" plug. We had a serviceman frm Germany out a few years ago (don't ask, long story) and he showed us how to adjust the roller speed to compensate for the faster rotation caused by using a 50hz appliance on 60hz. Have had the unit for over ten years now and it works perfectly fine. Pulls nearly 3000 watts of heating/steam producing power, but .... EU/UK laundry and dishwashing appliances and cold water: One reason for 220v or even 408v power grid being built for homes in that area of the world was mainly because it was a given laundry and later dishwashing appliances would have to heat their own water. Indeed for much of modern history hot water is provided for such areas by instant heaters located near or in the kitchen, bath or where required. Contrast this with the United States where central boilers/hot water tanks supply homes and buildings with heated water. It was also far easier to retro-fit many of the old (if not down right ancient)housing stock with electrical wiring for either appliances or water heaters as opposed to running hot water pipes from a central water heating system. Boil washing didn't start being attacked/dying out in Europe/UK until around the 1970's or so with the "energy crisis". Until then it simply was a given housewives wanted that feature on their washing machines, so the power had to be there to provide. Finally here is allot of debate on how it is more efficient for a washing machine or dishwasher to heat it's own water versus using that from a central supply. This is not always so and depends upon many factors. Before safety and other concerns caused water heater temp changes here in the USA, it was quite common to get water >140F or even 160F from tanked or tankless hot water systems. Rudd and others advertised this feature for housewives showing all the new modern appliances (dishwashers, washing machines etc...) that required lots of hot water, but the supply also had to be great so His Nibbs and the children could take their baths. Depending upon costs of heating the water and other factors such as temperature loss due to distance travelled, it is not always cheaper to have an appliance that can heat tap cold water to warm, hot or boiling. Consider also with modern enzyme and bleach laden dishwashing and laundry detergents much of the argument for starting from tap cold water and heating to warm or hot is lost. Blood amoung other substances that create stains is actually set when exposed to cold water. Commercial laundries use warm water (with or without alkaline chemicals) to flush such stained laundry before it is washed. Such places at least on this side of the pond also use several changes of wash water at temps ranging from 100F to over 150F that occur so quickly there wouldn't be time to heat water unless one uses some very powerful heating elements (steam fed washers for instance). Keep in mind that while a washer or dishwasher is heating that water the detergent is already working. When this heating time is added to the actual wash time you'll often find things are clean long before the set temp is reached or shortly afterwards. In the case of laundry the remaning time is simply beating the wash back and forth. | ||
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Post# 601594 , Reply# 25 6/6/2012 at 20:27 (4,339 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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American Voltage | ||
| Post# 601604 , Reply# 26 6/6/2012 at 21:13 (4,338 days old) by Spankomatic (Ukiah,CA) | ||
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Post# 601605 , Reply# 27 6/6/2012 at 21:22 (4,338 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@Combo | ||
| Post# 601652 , Reply# 28 6/7/2012 at 00:38 (4,338 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
120 and 240 are the majority metro US standard. Many utilities bump up to 125/250, it marginally reduces their I/R loss on reactive (motor) loads. Rural runs may sag down to 115 or less. Rural light bulbs last longer.
One legend says Europe chose the 50Hz standard thinking the generator bearings would last 1/6 longer. Well yeah they do. But duhh, for every generator there are thousands of transformers and they all have to be 1/5 bigger. And you have to replace generator bearings anyway. Net savings, negative. 220V house mains get away with almost half as much copper for the same Watt load. But if Euro mains are ground referenced like 120V US mains, danger to a user in a mishap is doubled. Edison's original idea was 100V DC. Which is uncomfortable to come in contact with but seldom lethal. Tesla/Westinghouse decided originally to match that with AC. But that's RMS. Which means during part of the cycle the voltage is zero and during part of the cycle it's as high as 140V which is getting dangerous. At 120V RMS, the peaks are almost 170V, which is dangerous. 240V RMS is 336V peak, which is often fatal. That's what makes AC "more dangerous" than DC at the same rated voltage. | ||
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Post# 601731 , Reply# 30 6/7/2012 at 10:36 (4,338 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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American Energy Star DWs | ||
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Post# 601778 , Reply# 32 6/7/2012 at 14:53 (4,338 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA) |
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Here is a link to how the energy use is calculated. Scroll down to (c)Dishwashers.
It takes into account the heating method (electric/gas) and temperature of the incoming water, along with other factors. CLICK HERE TO GO TO joe_in_philly's LINK | ||
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Post# 601829 , Reply# 33 6/7/2012 at 21:22 (4,337 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Noise American Dishwashers
Some but not all the excess noise on American units comes from the built in food grinder (macerator).
In an effort to match the quietness of European units many American dishwashers now come with various filter systems that claim to reduce or eliminate the need for a macerator. Depending upon how one loads the machine (that is how well dishware is scrapped) these filters may need to be cleaned at regular intervals. | ||
| Post# 601974 , Reply# 34 6/8/2012 at 16:00 (4,337 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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my dishwasher is not noisy and what idicates if the dishwasher is noisy or not is the outer insulations for built in model my dishwasher is a kenmore elite model made by kitchenair with a kenmore label i do not even notice when the dishwasher is working as its a gem when it comes to a non noisy dishwasher.
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Post# 602007 , Reply# 35 6/8/2012 at 19:34 (4,337 days old) by spinspeed (Far North New South Wales Australia (originally London UK)) |
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Great thread guys and really interesting information re power in USA. I have a Seimens dishwasher that we shipped over from UK when we relocated to Australia. Must be getting on for 11 years old. Hooked up to cold water here but uses such a small amount of water it heats up really fast. However, considering we have solar hot water and it gets scalding hot especially in the summer would make sense to hook up to hot supply.
However again, my Zanussi washing machine is cold fill and I think wash performance is much better with cold water heating up to desired temp. I also thought that blood stains should be washed in cold as hot water sets them? Perhaps I was miss informed about that one. My TL washers all have to get hot water from the tank and I don't think they wash as well as the Zanussi front load machine, but then that is a whole new thread. Thanks for a great thread, very informative Simon | ||
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Post# 602009 , Reply# 36 6/8/2012 at 19:56 (4,337 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Commercial Laundries Use Warm (around 100F) To Flush Blood
From textiles often with a small amount (per pound of wash) of alkaline substance. Ammonia will do in the absence of anything else.
Think about what happens to blood when exposed to cold (it coagulates) and you'll understand the rationale. Mind you "cold" water for laundry purposes is roughly defined as around 80F to 85F which to my hands feels quite warm. | ||
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Post# 602032 , Reply# 37 6/8/2012 at 21:18 (4,336 days old) by spinspeed (Far North New South Wales Australia (originally London UK)) |
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Cold water washing here in Australia is all the rage in top load machines. Personally I don't like it, even with cold power washing detergent I don't think results are great and especially gym stuff comes out smelling a little off too. My Maytag TL has controlled cold where it lets a little hot water in from time to time during the fill cycle. I think cold cold from the tap is not great. Powders don't dissolve that well.
My fisher and Paykel intuitive takes in a little hot or warm water then circulates the concentrated hot sudsy water over the load as the basket slowly turns for about five mins then fills with cold water to the top then starts to agitate. It is a great machine and results are very good for a top load washer. It is the middle of winter here in Sydney and we still have lashings of hot water from the sun only. Just put a load of sheets in the GE filter Flo and the water is really hot, must be nearly 60C, not sure what that is in Fahrenheit. Mind you it is a very sunny day here today. Is solar hot water not vey common in the US? I think it is one of the best ways to heat water, totally free once solar panels have been brought and set up. With the US also getting lots of sun I would have thought solar hot water would be common there too. | ||
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Post# 602150 , Reply# 38 6/9/2012 at 11:31 (4,336 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Are Solar Water Heaters Common in the US Unfortunately NOT we started encouraging them in the late 1970s but R Reagan put the brakes on them, when he came into the White-house he even made a big deal about having the solar heating system removed from the White House. So we are unfortunately way behind on this very practical way of heating water that much of the rest of the world uses. | ||
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Post# 602232 , Reply# 41 6/9/2012 at 20:06 (4,336 days old) by spinspeed (Far North New South Wales Australia (originally London UK)) |
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Washer111 I agree that layout costs for solar are high. It was already installed in our house when we brought it. It does have an elecric booster for cloudy winter days which works on a timer to take advantage of cheaper electricity at night. Today it is chucking it down with rain but from yesterday's wall to wall sunshine we have heaps of very hot water but pretty sure I will need to switch the booster on as have done 4 loads of laundry but did use the same hot water for all 4 loads using suds transfer from one TL to other TL. Hate to think of the cost of running the Maytag dryer but has to be done on a day like this.
Our solar system was set up in the mid 80s and we might replace as we have some issues with poor hot water pressure and some green metallic residue in the hot water system. Old copper pipes I think but it will certainly do for now. Apparentley Harvey Norman does a really good deal on solar hot water. I know nothing about heat pumps or how they work. Unfortunately we have no gas supply in our street. We had to have an induction cooktop which I have to say is bloody brilliant, as quick and controllable as gas. I have never liked conventional electric cook tops and always preferred gas. Our Fisher and Paykel electric oven and cook top were really great purchases and highly recommend them. Pyrolitic cleaning is just the best invention. Sory I have rambled off the subject a bit here. Off to see Prometheus this evening, very excited! Simon | ||
| Post# 602277 , Reply# 44 6/10/2012 at 01:15 (4,335 days old) by MikeKLondon (London) | ||
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One More Question In the UK DW have a built in Water softener is this the case in the US? most of the UK has very hard water and I'm told you cant put hot water in the Softener. | ||
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Post# 602278 , Reply# 45 6/10/2012 at 01:15 (4,335 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Water Heaters/Boilers
Are usually located in the basement or ground floor ultility area. The latter can be anywhere from off the kitchen to outdoors on a patio, etc. Much depends upon where in the USA one lives and how one heats the water.
Pressure is very much determined by location as well. Here in NYC the water system was designed to use gravity and can push water up to the height of a six story (or is it seven?) building. Higher than that requires the use of rooftop water tanks you see in all those picutures of the NYC skyline. Other locations use pumps or similar means to create proper pressue to serve local community. Of course if one is on a well or other source of water that is different. Bacteria in hot water tanks is not urban myth. A serious disease is spread by the bacteria Legionellosis which can breed in hot water tanks if they aren't kept to a certain temperature. Before the energy crisis of the 1970's it was common to find USA domestic hot water supplies at temps of 140F to 180F. Out of concerns for scald burns and to save energy the government and people on their own began to reduce that temp. However some went too far and the result was an outbreak of disease. Much of the reasons you gave against hot water tanks as opposed to a tankless system are vaild and often used here to get persons to install the latter. However so many Americans think the opposite of those on the otherside of the pond. They cannot see why an appliance should heat water when they've got a big old tank to do the same. The only real time they will consider such a thing is for dishwashers, though have been warming to the idea for front loading washing machines as well. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 602287 , Reply# 47 6/10/2012 at 04:35 (4,335 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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IIRC Legionellosis is spread by inhaling misty water, like in a shower. I don't think using dishes etc from a dishwasher, that has used water contaminated with Legionellosis, is a huge risk.
In 1999 200 people got infected with Legionellosis from a jacuzzi that was on display on a flower show. The jacuzzi was running every day with the same water at 30*C or so. The air around the jacuzzi was full of the bacteria. It was a huge disaster, 32 people died. The advice overhere in the Netherlands is to keep water heaters over 60*C/140*F so the bacteries get no chance. I've often wondered why people in the USA keep their water heaters at a lower temperature. Might it be that the risk of Legionellosis is lower because there is more chlorine bleach in the water? | ||
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Post# 602293 , Reply# 48 6/10/2012 at 06:44 (4,335 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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120F Hot Water In The USA | ||
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Post# 602298 , Reply# 49 6/10/2012 at 07:03 (4,335 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Interesting article. It looks like the advice is still to keep the temperature of the water heater at 140*F, but use a mixing valve that makes the temperature of the outgoing water at 120*F. All kind of valves or adjustments are available too. I would prefer regulating at the valve, with a mixing valve just after the water heater leaves the possibility of the Legionella bacteria to grow in the water pipes.
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Post# 602300 , Reply# 50 6/10/2012 at 07:18 (4,335 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@MikeLondon
Have to second the above posts in that Legionellosis or probably anything else "growing" in one's hot water heater would affect the household directly. The dw like the washing machine are closed units so the chances of inhaling bacteria laden mist/droplets is low.
Built In Water Softeners: No, best as one knows no domestic American made dw has or had internal water softeners like those from the otherside of the pond. This of course excludes offerings from European brands such as Bosch or Miele. Homes with hard water here usually either make do or install whole home water softener systems. Some of the posts of dishwashers and washing machines found by members on this side of the pond show various "damage" from hard water deposits. Everything from nearly rock solid formations to green tinged interiors. | ||
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Post# 602301 , Reply# 51 6/10/2012 at 07:23 (4,335 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Here's Another View | ||
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Post# 602303 , Reply# 52 6/10/2012 at 07:32 (4,335 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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To Many Heating Water To 140F or Higher
Is simply a waste of energy with a storage tank system. It means unless some sort of control is rigged the thing is heating all that water every day and night to that high temperture regardless of need.
There was a thread here in the group awhile ago about vintag Rudd and other water heaters that promised water as hot as 180F (circa 1940). Supposedly this provided enough hot water for all the household's needs. Near boiling hot water for washing machines and dishwashers, while being able to supply for His Nibbs's bath. A member explained that it was likely some sort of tempering valve of valves provided water at the taps and bath much lower than 180F, while sending that very hot water directly where needed. | ||
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Post# 602313 , Reply# 54 6/10/2012 at 08:31 (4,335 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Gabriele
Not every European dishwasher does every last rinse at 65*C, especially not on the delicate cycle! But then again the risk lies not in the dishwasher. You can't get legionellosis from that. Showering etc. is the risky thing here, when the water is sprayed around, you inhale the bacteria and the lungs are infected.
The problem is that with heating a water heater up to 60*C once a month, the bacteria that might have grown in the water heater are killed, but most likely they have spread through the pipes. Those pipes will never reach 60*C for three hours and the bacteria will not be killed because of the cycle of the water heater. Overhere in the Netherlands we see cases of hot water systems infected with the Legionella bacterie on a somewhat regular basis. The systems in swimming pools, sport schools and retirement homes seem to be the most sensitive to it. | ||
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Post# 602350 , Reply# 56 6/10/2012 at 12:06 (4,335 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Watts = Volts x Amperes. (Amps) 
Apologies if this was responded to, I did not see it.
"How does voltage affect the water heating capability? Is there less "oomph" available to drive the heating element. A 20 ammp circuit on 230v = 4,600 watts is what the wire can carry. A 20 amp circuit on 115v = 2,300 watts is what the sire can carry. A 15 amp circuit in 230v = 3,450 wattts is what the wire can carry. A 15 amp circuit on 115v = 1,725 watts is what the wire can carry. So on our voltage we can't get in a heater powerful enough (on an ordinary circuit of 15a or 20a) to start with cold water in a dishwasher. The time contsraints (to heat the water adequately) would be ridiuculously long. Logic also dictates that showering cold water on hot dishes and glasses can only stress them. Not appealing to us. LOL | ||
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Post# 602359 , Reply# 57 6/10/2012 at 12:30 (4,335 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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"Logic also dictates that showering cold water on hot dishes and glasses can only stress them. Not appealing to us. LOL"
I guess for us it's the other way around, showering hot water on cold dishes isn't appealing to us. LOL Not because the dishes and glasses can't handle it, but because some food, for instance with proteins, might get burned on to the plates. | ||
| Post# 602363 , Reply# 58 6/10/2012 at 12:38 (4,335 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.) | ||
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Logic also dictates that showering cold water on hot dishes Which is where Bosch's heat exchanger comes in: a stepped reduction in temperature per fill. | ||
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Post# 602377 , Reply# 61 6/10/2012 at 13:09 (4,335 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 602406 , Reply# 63 6/10/2012 at 15:08 (4,335 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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The problem in larger hot water systems is the water that keeps sitting in unused parts of it. Besides that, the material of the system has influence too. Bacteria grow faster in RVS, PVC and PEX pipes. That in combination with the low chlorine bleach percentage in the water here, the problem is a serious one. Once in the pipes, the problem is very hard to solve, the bacteries seem to like to grow in the scale in the pipes. In order to solve the problem you need to run the system with 60*C water for at least 32 minutes, but it takes quite a while before the end of the pipes have reached that temperature. So most of the time it is done by raising the temperature of the water heater much higher.
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Post# 602457 , Reply# 66 6/10/2012 at 19:11 (4,335 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Hot Water Cooling Off In The Hot Water Line To The DW This is a much bigger problem with the new low water use long cycle DWs. I wounder if they take into account all the additional electricity that running these new Energy Star DWs require to keep heating the water in the machine?.
Jarrod it is too bad you don't have a tank style Gas Water Heater, I have had customers install a small recirculating pump on the kitchen hot water line and control its use with either a wall switch or a timer that can be set for up to 6 hours. You can buy these at Home Depot etc. These allow you to always have hot water at the kitchen sink, and DW when you are running the pump. Using this type of system can save electricity, cycle time and needless wear and tear on your expensive DW, to say nothing of reducing pollution caused buy burning dirty coal generated electricity.
111 You guys need more modern Solar Water Heater Systems, I have never heard of a system that could not produce at least 80% of the yearly hot water required even here in the cloudy northeast United States. And I have never heard of a system that either scalds you or leaves you with a cold shower. I have been to Australia and Australians are more clever than that, if you don't want to fix or replace your system that is your option but it is silly to give people the impression that Solar Water Systems have these problems. On any Solar System I have ever seen you always have hot water of the set temperature, I do like your idea of using Heat-Pump back-up, I installed a HP WH in my partners home a year and a half ago and it works great and has been saving 20-25 dollars per month in a one person household. | ||
| Post# 602492 , Reply# 67 6/10/2012 at 20:51 (4,334 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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Post# 602638 , Reply# 69 6/11/2012 at 11:50 (4,334 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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The solar system installed by our landlord acts as a supplemental heat source. It kicks in when it's (more or less) sunny outside and when not, gas heats the 80 gal. storage tank. The temp inside this tank seems to fluctuate widely - sometimes from 115F to almost 190F. At our old house, the heater was set to 120F for years and I never had a problem with getting sick from showering. Guess I was lucky?
Our DW is connected to cold but since it's such as piece of ... I usually manually fill it two bowls (1.3 gal) of 140F water right from the tap. This makes the 15 minute main wash nice and hot and it cleans most items this way just fine using Aldi-brand powder - and without pre-rinsing. Now, if the programming of that POS dishwasher would only include an automatic interim rinse, I wouldn't have to reset the cycle for another Quick Wash each time to get streak-free dishes. :-( | ||
| Post# 602730 , Reply# 71 6/11/2012 at 16:54 (4,334 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.) | ||
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Logixx Which brand of dishwasher do you have? | ||
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Post# 602756 , Reply# 72 6/11/2012 at 18:47 (4,334 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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The brand is called Bomann. Looks internally just like the re-painted 45cm Hotpoint posted in a recent thread. Mine is 60 cm, though. It washes well for what it is but the semi-automatic cycles suck, it's loud and thirsty.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK | ||
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