| Thread Number: 41022
Phosphate Content Of Vintage Detergents |
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Post# 606779 6/27/2012 at 21:40 (327 days old) by Launderess  (La Pomme Grande) |
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  Circa 1970, and published by a magazine of the day.
Lists many of the popular laundry detergents and soaps of the day along with household cleaners and products for automatic dishwashers. Talk amoungst yourselves. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 606781 , Reply# 1 6/27/2012 at 22:12 (327 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas) |
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No wonder Cascade was my favorite, and a clean bleach smell too. | ||
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Post# 606792 , Reply# 2 6/28/2012 at 00:08 (327 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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| Post# 606802 , Reply# 3 6/28/2012 at 01:40 (327 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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looks like it packed quite a wallop too! | ||
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Post# 606803 , Reply# 4 6/28/2012 at 02:19 (327 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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Saw those too and was that gobsmacked at the chemicals and poisons allowed then for domestic use. Wonder how many household pets along with humans were sickened if not outright killed by accidental ingestion or simply by exposure.
Benzene, DDT, Endosulfan, Lindane, Thallium, oh my! Thallium was banned as a rodent poison in the United States as of 1972. Lindane is still used IIRC as part of lotions/creams to rid humans of lice. A worldwide ban on the use and production of Endosulfan went into affect in 2011 after the Stockholm Convention. As for the detergent/cleaner listings know now one can certainly cease adding phosphates from my stash when doing the wash with any of my vintage detergents on the above list. Many are from the 1970's and thus unless a different formula are packed with enough of the stuff already. Have found the key is to read the directions printed on the box carefully. Find products laden with STPP most always state that added extra packaged water conditioners (as products such as Calgon were called) are not necessary...., then go on to say if water conditions are hard to simply add more of the detergent instead. Am here to tell you that when the wash water drains out from using vintage Gain as the detergent it is clear, not cloudy as say when one uses Tide or even Persil. This told me long ago the products lacked or had minimal washing soda and most certainly no Zeolites. | ||
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Post# 606829 , Reply# 6 6/28/2012 at 07:53 (326 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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What is surprising is that into the 80's the phosphate content had declined to less than 10% in many brands but as Laundress mentioned, the rinsing is still clear and the clothes are still clean. Perhaps some know of the formulation changes and advancements that have occurred over these decades leading us to where we are now and can elaborate more. It would seem that we've moved backward by removing STPP from dishwasher detergents (and arguably laundry products) but I've always wondered what is the REAL environmental impact of the comparatively small amounts of phosphates in detergents and cleaners compared with the enormous volume used in food preparation, agriculture, etc.
Diazanon was banned a number of years ago as well and I sorely missed that insecticide for a while. It worked! | ||
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Post# 606923 , Reply# 7 6/28/2012 at 17:38 (326 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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 There was an article linked here a couple of years ago that said 95% of the phosphorus in lakes and streams was from agricultural runoff. Considering the large quantity of fertilizer used by farmers, this isn't too surprising.
The amount of STPP in products must have declined before disappearing, but maybe not to less than 10%. I think the percentages that we were used to seeing on the sides of packages were of phosphorus content, not a percentage of STPP. As the article says, "if expressed in terms of other compounds of phosphorus, the percentages would be different." Someone (I think sudsmaster) used to say that the amount of STPP was about three times as much as the phosphorus content -- in other words, if the formulation had 7% phosphorus, it would be about 21% STPP. Correct me if I'm wrong! | ||
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Post# 606927 , Reply# 8 6/28/2012 at 17:51 (326 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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Which is why when states such as NJ and NY banned phosphates recently for DW and other cleaning products they also regulated fertilizers for both domestic and IIRC commercial use as well. So farmers, landscapers, golf courses etc all must purchase and use products that contain less of the stuff than in the past.
Methinks government knows a bulk of of phosphates in waterways is the result of human waste. That is mainly a product of normal bodily functions thus cannot be changed. What they could and did do in many areas is control consumer products to the extent possible. | ||
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Post# 606928 , Reply# 9 6/28/2012 at 17:56 (326 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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STPP and SHPP are such excellent builders for laundry products you don't really need sodium carbonate or borax. It takes several different chemicals to replace phosphates when they are removed from laundry products. Dishwasher chemicals are another story because you actually want a high pH to help deal with grease and fat. OTHO while some alkalinity is good for laundry, too much is very hard on fabrics.
Highly alkaline laundry detergents are very old school and as mentioned can be hard on fabrics. If you ever sent wash to commercial laundries years ago where several high pH washes in hot to very hot water was used, you noticed the results after awhile. | ||
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Post# 606984 , Reply# 11 6/29/2012 at 00:11 (326 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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Post# 607001 , Reply# 14 6/29/2012 at 03:17 (326 days old) by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 607025 , Reply# 15 6/29/2012 at 07:39 (325 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Ahhh. All in the expression of content values then. Thanks for the clarification.
A quick search of a few results shows a PH value of 9-10, but this looks somewhat variable depending on the PH regulating agent used. One did mention that a PH of 9-9.5 was necessary to not interfere with the surfactants in dishwasher detergent. | ||
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Post# 607137 , Reply# 16 6/29/2012 at 15:33 (325 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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| Post# 607202 , Reply# 17 6/29/2012 at 22:30 (325 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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it's right up there with washing soda! Just not as much required as ? | ||
| Post# 607212 , Reply# 18 6/29/2012 at 23:55 (325 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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that PH was for TPS, the TSPP could easily be different...got to find my tester! | ||
| Post# 607213 , Reply# 19 6/30/2012 at 00:10 (325 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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of 9.4 (mixed with distilled water) So not quite as alkaline as TSP or Washing soda. | ||
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Post# 607256 , Reply# 20 6/30/2012 at 11:45 (324 days old) by sudsmaster (Greater SF Bay Area) |
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 In order of increasing alkalinity:
STPP TSP Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) Sodium Silicate (water glass) From what I gather, sodium carbonate does not negate the non precipitating power of STPP. It simply helps to increase the alkalinity, as does sodium silicate. Sodium silicate also functions to protect washer parts from corrosion. | ||
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Post# 607283 , Reply# 21 6/30/2012 at 16:07 (324 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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Hopefully not as those of us adding the stuff to modern sodium carbonate detergents would be for trouble.
Have some Ecolab Solid Super Star commercial laundry detergent in my stash and it is mainly STPP,Washing Soda and Surfactants along with the usual colorings, OBAs, fragrance etc. For a non-enzyme detergent this stuff cleans quite well. It's designed for linens from hotels, hospitals, and so forth. Guess one could (and one does) add a separate enzyme product if required. | ||
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Post# 607300 , Reply# 22 6/30/2012 at 17:19 (324 days old) by sudsmaster (Greater SF Bay Area) |
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Phosphated detergents used to contain sodium carbonate and sodium silicate along with STPP. This was done to help lower the phosphate content from 50% or higher to around 30%, which was found to be more than adequate for effective cleaning and water softening.
30% phosphate works out to around 8% phosphorus content. If sodium carbonate negated the non-precipitating nature of STPP I doubt that this would have been done. In any case, I have found dramatically superior washing results from mixing STPP at a 33% by weight ratio to a variety of powdered non-phosphated detergents. It's easy enough to test the conditions. Get a glass jar, fill it halfway with very hard water (most well water will do). Add STPP and note the absence of precipitate. Empty jar, rinse, fill 1/2 way with same hardness water, add same amount TSP, note precipitate. Repeat with non-phosphated detergent or washing soda. Then repeat with equal amounts of STPP and non-phosphated detergent or washing soda and note results. I seem to recall I did the above about 10 years ago and found that STPP eliminated the precipitation problem. But it would bear repeating. Any volunteers? | ||
| Post# 607327 , Reply# 23 6/30/2012 at 19:45 (324 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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and see! Interesting that my own ph tests show, in order of alkalinity as TSP = 12 Washing soda = 11.6 STPP = 9.4 ?? | ||
| Post# 608765 , Reply# 24 7/6/2012 at 22:26 (318 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Sudsmaster's test and got the same results he did! (thanks for posting) Also did one with a soap powder I make myself, with the just STPP and the soap, also found no precipitation. Good Stuff, STPP! | ||
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Post# 608824 , Reply# 25 7/7/2012 at 07:07 (317 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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Thing to remember is that the water conditioner (phosphates, or whatever one is using) needs to into the water before the soap. This ensures whatever hard water minerals in the water are dealt with before being allowed to react with the soap.
If one is cheating by using a detergent & soap mixture while it still is best to add the detergent first, whatever surfactants in that product will deal well enough with hard water before the soap has any chance IMHO. For this reason one prefers to use liquid detergents as a "builder" when using soap washes. This way one also is not adding washing soda as found with most powdered detergents. | ||
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Post# 608956 , Reply# 27 7/8/2012 at 00:08 (317 days old) by sudsmaster (Greater SF Bay Area) |
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Thanks, Stan.
I have a well on my property that I use for irrigation only (too much nitrates for human consumption, I'm told). The water is relatively hard. I seem to recall doing this test about 10 years ago but like I said, I can't be sure that I verified that STPP prevents sodium carbonate from forming a precipitate. So thanks for your testing! | ||
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Post# 608957 , Reply# 28 7/8/2012 at 00:10 (317 days old) by sudsmaster (Greater SF Bay Area) |
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Hyacinth,
As you may recall I went through a grated soap phase where I added STPP to the wash and then small amounts of soap. It worked well enough in teh Neptune, but after a while I got tired of the routine and went back to regular detergents. I also noticed that whites tended to yellow a bit after long-term soap washes, even with STPP. | ||
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Post# 608962 , Reply# 29 7/8/2012 at 00:49 (317 days old) by Launderess (La Pomme Grande) |
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Were you doing at least one or more hot rinses, or at least warm?
Usually the yellowing of items washed in pure soap comes from a reaction between soap/soil residue and heat (iron or dryer). Also know you knew this already but a good dosing of a sour in the rinse to remove any traces of sodium bicarbonate (residue from the break down of alkaline products in the wash such as sodium carbonate), from textiles as that too will yellow upon contact with heat. Will tend to agree that soap alone for laundry day isn't on most of the time, even with STPP. One could probably get away with it but it's going to require lots of hot water rinses with probably a good dose of STPP in the first one or two in order to ensure all traces of soap are removed. Of course there is the old standby method of boiling the residue out. You've got a few Mieles lying about that could easily do that! *LOL* | ||
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