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Thread Number: 41640
Sounds like the USA could be getting heat pump dryers |
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Post# 614272 8/2/2012 at 15:27 (4,274 days old) by joe_in_philly  (Philadelphia, PA, USA) |
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Energy Star seeks innovative ways to improve dryer efficiency
CLICK HERE TO GO TO joe_in_philly's LINK | ||
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| Post# 614285 , Reply# 2 8/2/2012 at 17:06 (4,274 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
Efficiency and electric consumption efficiency........ | ||
| Post# 614290 , Reply# 3 8/2/2012 at 17:18 (4,274 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California) | ||
I agree with Mat. Although a cool idea, there's no way Americans will wait 3 hours for clothes to dry. If that's the case, they might as well line dry in the summer, which doesn't even take that long in the right climate. Americans already complain about the 90 minute or longer wash times with the new front loading washers, and to add 3 more hours to dry, no way. Even an hour to dry is a bit long. My average dry time for a load is about 35 maybe 40 minutes. And I usually use the auto dry on medium heat when I'm able. When I have to use a laundromat, dry times are roughly 25 to 30 minutes on high heat setting. The amount of savings doesn't seem that drastic for any one to consider it. It may take a while for savings to actually accumulate, but $700 over the life of the dryer just doesn't seem worth it. But that's just me, others may love the idea. But with the way American's like getting their laundry done as fast as possible, I don't see it lasting here.
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Post# 614304 , Reply# 4 8/2/2012 at 19:17 (4,274 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Heat pump Dryers | ||
| Post# 614320 , Reply# 5 8/2/2012 at 21:44 (4,274 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
venting methode for heat pump dryers?
me from my point of view is that this will mean major cost how will a heat pump dryer be vented if it needs to be vented outdoors like a conventinal electric dryer and how will this effect the drying methode? because if it raise the electric cost per use this will not bring much in the saving department unless the auto cycle high heat med ect is energy wise. just wnet some info because if these are out when i went a stack set dryer on top of the washer will this be a good buy and will it require to be hookup to the washer water outlets?
Thank you to anyone who can answer this question | ||
| Post# 614321 , Reply# 6 8/2/2012 at 21:46 (4,274 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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Hmm my dryer uses natural gas so I guess I am not at all interested in an appliance that uses electricity which costs much more per use than NG even if it is a heat pump. Compared to gas can't make the numbers work to an advantage given current electric rates | ||
| Post# 614337 , Reply# 7 8/3/2012 at 00:21 (4,273 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
Hold the applause......
...... until you see the prices. Beside the cycle-time difference, a compressor and closed-loop heat exchangers can't compete in sales price to either a coil of nichrome wire or a gas burner, both very simple. Unless the goobermint subsidizes the purchase price, a HP dryer won't ever pay in energy for the sales price difference. Not at US mains rates. And Americans aren't going to leap on dryers that require plumbing, there is no provision for it in our houses.
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Post# 614352 , Reply# 8 8/3/2012 at 02:54 (4,273 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Overhere heat pump dryers have been on the market for a while. They are very expensive in comparison to regular electric vented dryers, to about 3 times the price of a regular one.
Heat pump dryers are much slower than regular dryers because they dry at lower temperatures. And because American dryers use a higher temperature at drying than European dryers, the difference in drying time between a regular dryer and a heat pump one will be bigger. Heat pump dryers don't need to be vented, they are condenser dryers. The big advantage of it is you can place them anywhere where a proper electric outlet is. Overhere in Europe that is easier I guess than on the other side of the big pond. Overhere every room in the house has outlets that can be used. | ||
| Post# 614439 , Reply# 12 8/3/2012 at 12:38 (4,273 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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I would not get one even if I had no Nat .gas hook-up...
Of course for the ones that does not have natural gas would be good about a little saving on electric bills, so anyway just a little electric efficiency, but let's don't talk about efficiency on drying as I personally know by living in italy and seing much of them around that they cannot reach the same heat temperatures that an electric element do and others things that I will mention later and so being efficient about performances, at least compared to the performances to which americans are used to, so they takes more time to dry of course than electric element heated dryer and of course gas ones, it is important to say that they will have to condense the water not expel the wet air as the system is that the decompressed and so cold gas allow wet air to condense water inside a condenser, which of course won't be able to condense all the wet present in hot warm air coming from the drum, so will not put in re-circulation dry hot air as will stil have some of the humidity that didn't get condensed and so will be reintroduced into the drum by making times even longer, if wet air was expelled outside these dryers would need two hoses one for hot warm air and one for cold air (if not they would be almost like an air conditioner producing cold air inside the home as they would need a radiator) and anyway would need a bigger "heat pump system". So I think these are good just for a little electric saving but not for the efficiency on drying so I can just guess that they would not be what most american would have even if they allow to save a little money, and then gas dryers as I said are way more efficient even about the costs of energy so they anyway would catch a small slice of the market, they would be too much long and unefficient about preformances at least compared, as I said, to the efficience on performances to which americans are used to since I know for experience that even the europeans vented dryers usually takes way more time to dry than american ones.
This post was last edited 08/03/2012 at 12:53 | ||
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Post# 614526 , Reply# 13 8/3/2012 at 19:15 (4,273 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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I can't speak for the entire European market, but at least we here have no gas dryers - at all. Electric is the only alternative to line drying and electricity rates over here are steep. Heat-pump units are the best solution for us, I suppose. Switzerland has even outlawed traditional dryers (well, at least the sale of them) this past January.
A Miele dryer will, for example, dry 17 lbs. in a 4 cu.ft. drum in about two hours. I suppose US units could be faster, as they have a bigger drums for similar load sizes - since most people don't fully loads their washers. However, many people probably won't like the idea of additional filters to clean. Seems like dishwashers with filters is already a far stretch to most... | ||
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Post# 614569 , Reply# 14 8/3/2012 at 23:55 (4,272 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD) |
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Is that 17 lbs. wet or dry weight? | ||
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Post# 614594 , Reply# 15 8/4/2012 at 07:58 (4,272 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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| Post# 614841 , Reply# 17 8/5/2012 at 08:11 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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dj Gabriele
You obviously do not know what you're talking about.....
Most of your speeches and ideas are so wrong for too many reasons trust me.... First of all Gas dryers which are maybe now the most types in US are way more energy efficient on costs of what you'd pay to run an heat pump, and this is FOR SURE. But let's talk for who does not have a nat. gas availability.... Let's start with this: "American ones could be getting units with compressor rated at 2 kW of electric power effectively rendering them twice as fast for the same load size" WHAT??? So you think it is just a matter of compressor and heat? You claim you can get more heat with a bigger compressor? Ehm, no it is not so! And I will say why to you later, it's true that the prerformances would be almost the same of electric element condenser ones though,then since you talk about twice of efficience for same load size I assume that you think americans could get the same size or capacities of EU models or always run in half load.... ehm.. this will never happend trust me. Of course americans would never get an average European dryer size (6kg) since most of americans would just rightly consider them kinda doll toys as I of course do, they're too small, and even the bigger EU models rated 9kgs got drums too little than american ones to be taken seriously! So americans of course would like getting the same capacity and size they are used to not the european Barbie sizes, and a 2kwh heat pump in this case should be the basis! Anyway..... They cannnot heat the same temperature of an element nor if you put a 6kwh heat pump! Heat pumps have their limits about heat production! But it is not a matter of heat primarily Rather it's the matter about condensing system that does not work or at least is not as efficient for the performance as vented drying! It takes really too long to dry than a vented system! Gabriele, this one is probably the most non-sense: "Or they could dry at higher heat using a less efficient heat pump cycle but with faster drying times yet being better than the current American offering on the market" WTH? How can you say this? Seriously hoping that you're talking about energy efficience, and seriously hoping ur talking of the current American offering about Heat pumps (Since few models of heat pump dryers are imported along with condenser ones and sold as "space saver" or compact dryers for people living in small apts. and where venting is not possible) But how can you claim this? Is not a matter of heat pump power primarily! Have you ever tried an american electric "full size" dryer? Guess you never did if you speak so.... If you did I just wonder how can you say this at this point.... An average american electric or gas dryer dries a 700-800 rpm spinned 10kg load in about 30-40 mins at high heat, an european electric vented one usually dries a 5k 1hr(the better ones) and 1 hr and half or more the other less good, let's don't talk about condenser dryers nor heat pump ones! It is important to remind you of the fact that the average load for Europeans full size machines is just 6kgs (13 Lbs)! Not 10kg(22Lbs) and even more like full size american machines! The heat pump ones that I've tried and seen till now are an AEG and A Rex Electrolux, they both dried a 1000 rpm 6 kg load in about 110 minuntes!!! And the wife of a member of our company that bought one said hers takes more than 2hrs for a 900 rpm spinned full 7 kgs loads! She got an Hoover..... Anyway, Gabriele.....It's clear you don't know what you're talking about....I think they would never get that much of a success in US unless for those that for a little saving on electric bill would renunce to performance on drying, It is also important to mention that if you use a 2kwh heat pump for 2 hrs you'd get the same electricity used for a 4 kwh electric element used in a vented one but for an hour (and as I said vented ones usually takes less than 1 hour to dry a full load). So I don't even see that much of saving..... This post was last edited 08/05/2012 at 08:42 | ||
| Post# 614862 , Reply# 19 8/5/2012 at 11:15 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Well and it's me that I'm offending? You're igno
Engieneer or not you might go better at studying! You did not even understand what I wrote!
CIT "Gas drying is not more efficient than heat pump plus it's a fossil fuel, heat pump can be run with electricity that could be generated from clean resources like nuclear or renewables. Total efficiency is better because gas adds humidity to the cycle and per each unit energy burned will dry for 2/3 of it as the hot air is already moist form the combustion. Heat pump will dry the air during the cycle and use only one unit of energy per 3-4 units of drying. (others degreed guys please forgive me for using "units" and not actual values but I want to be clear for everybody!)" Oh do you really think being so smart? Might be best for you if instead speaking and thinking like a very doubtful engineer making unuseful calculus took from the air or looking from where the energy come from renewable or not would think about costs of energy, drying times and also performances, I look rather for the cost of every energy source and bill to pay not from where it come and so I care also of efficiency on the performances! I care to have a dryer that works and gives me a dry load in less time! I don't care if it use renewable sources or not! You state that an heat pump can eleminate all the moist to the air before being put in recirculation making it totally dry....where? So please let me know what you think about heat pump being longer compared to others conderser but electric! CIT "You could check data sheets (ops, in the USA they don't list energy consumption of dryers!) and discover that a gas dryer uses 30% energy more than an equivalent electric one. A heat pump will use 1/4 of that, factoring in the production efficiency for electricity at an average of 40% the heat pump will use LESS primary energy than a gas dryer." How can you compare electric energy to gas energy? It will even use "more energy" but if that energy is the one that cost way less even if it phantomatically would be 30% more and would let me save is the thing I primarily care like most americans! And I just know that running even a 1000 watts for an heat pump is way more expensive than run a gas dryer......even because the gas one would get the job done quickly. So we just have to state what energy efficience is at this point! CIT "Weight the average European 6 kg load and tell me if it's bigger or smaller than the average American "large volume" load and get back to me. We had this discussion in the forum millions of times already. You can have a drum of 6 cubic feet, 10 or whatever you want. As long as the power heating and airflow are sufficient you can have fast drying times." Yes I can totally say that the 6kg load rated for EU is just absolutelly smaller than the American Large volume! TOTALLY! And you would say that a more packed load would dry as if it was freely to swish in a bigger drum? Okay Mr Engineer! That's just enough! CIT Commercial heat pump dryer in our laundy dryes stuff in the same time of the old vented one at around 25 minutes for a full 20 kg load while using 1/3 of the energy of the old one. Go figure if isn't as fast. The compressor is rated at some 5 kW of power. Where??? Never seen a 20kg dried in 25 minutes in a laundromat with heat pump! Never!!! ratehr 40 mins for 8kg load! let's don't talk about 20kg!!! I hope you're kidding! CIT This is almost offending: you are the IGNORANT, I was exactly speaking of efficiency. If you make the hot side of the heat pump "hotter" and the cold side "colder" you will lower the efficiency of the cycle but will have a faster drying time because of the improved moisture removal of the higher temperature (more humidity can be taken from the hot air) and improved condensation. Such a system will be more efficient than a simple vented or classic condenser dryer compared to the current offering. Consider that since American dryers are exempt from Energy classification they are generally less efficient than European dryers be them vented or condenser and terribly inefficient compared to heat pump ones. You can't make an heat pump hotter! Is right what you say about hot and cold and condensers but you cannot elimiate all the moist from the air before being put in recirculation so you can't say it would be more efficient than a vented one gas or electric it will be, (also I can tell you most americans finds gas ones being even faster) this is impossible! And you would be an engineer??? Well if you studied in Italy it probably is......I offended you now? Well I just don't care, I just said the truth as in Italy everyone can BUY a degree! Then the fact that american dryers are exempt from energy classification (not true as anyway the consumption are rated in the "Energyguide") let you say that they're less energy efficient??? AND WHY???? CIT Yes, you're utterly ignorant and stupid. You should wash you mouth with soap and vinegar before attempting to answer me back. It's not numbers I'm inventing, you could try yourself putting a power meter on a classic electric dryer (choose your style, American and European) and a heat pump one, you'd be amazed at how different will be the electric consumption of them! Well I will not say that you're stupid but arrogant you're for sure. I'm curious to know if youn did this experiment of the power-o.meter indeed! No invented numbers.... well they actually looks so for my advice...and I never said they don't allow you to save money, they could let you save just a little bit, I only said that for the few money they could let you save I think for many americans they would not be worth it as they would be obviously longer and less efficient on performances! This post was last edited 08/05/2012 at 15:08 | ||
| Post# 614867 , Reply# 22 8/5/2012 at 11:51 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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What got deleted?
"Please point out to the EXACT words where I said such a stupid thing. "
"About size: I'm talking about weight of the load not volumes. Weight the average European 6 kg load and tell me if it's bigger or smaller than the average American "large volume" load and get back to me. We had this discussion in the forum millions of times already. You can have a drum of 6 cubic feet, 10 or whatever you want. As long as the power heating and airflow are sufficient you can have fast drying times." So if not this what you ment there? And: " You state that an heat pump can eleminate all the moist to the air before being put in recirculation making it totally dry...." Same here, never said such a thing." Well you didn't but looked like you tought so, or at least you forgot on purpose to put this in your considerations and "reasoning". BTW I can see from your profile you don't even own a dryer! This post was last edited 08/05/2012 at 12:16 | ||
| Post# 614870 , Reply# 23 8/5/2012 at 12:02 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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So American dryers are rated, I don't think so, have a look at the official relevant page.
Are not rated in letters like in europe but their labels show what the average consumption in $! So you can easily get an Idea! Your link is such unuseful! At this point I'll avoid commenting about all the insults you threw all over me, maybe you should lower your head and keep silent. Insults????' Where you can see the insults??? You might better keep your mouth closed, better say fingers tied as over being such an IGNORANT person you're very arrogant and rude! I got angry reading your bullshits also but I never got to call you stupid or give you any kind of TRUE insults as you did, for unless the ones that in your buggy head they looked so! This is another proof you're such an ignorant person as rudeness is synonymous of ignorance! | ||
| Post# 614880 , Reply# 25 8/5/2012 at 12:29 (4,271 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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And somehow the phrase where you said I was either ignorant or drunk disappeared... magic of editing... I was just going to quote that! | ||
| Post# 614899 , Reply# 26 8/5/2012 at 12:53 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Yes it was and wanted to be an insult! And it was after you
So just calm down!!! I think we're civil people expressing opinions! No need to insult anyone!
I gotta admit and aplogize about labels for dryers, you're right dryers and range and stoves are not rated, I confused with dishwashers, but this does not mean that it is because they're less energy efficient than european ones as you say! They're not rated Simply because they all have an average consumption wattage that is similar to all of them! On average electric american dryers use about 4kwh, so 4000 watts..... So of course they use more energy than their european counterparts per time but actually they are much faster, and way more capacious... For example when I had to dry a load from my Filter-flo in my old Europeam dryer rated 7kg (Exquist brand made by White Knight) 2700 watts I had to divide it in 2 loads so it used to take over 3 hrs for it, while in US using electric dryers used to take 35-40 minutes for the same load...... And I say no heat pump dryer will be as good on performances and anyway the electric saving you could get will not be much worth it... This post was last edited 08/05/2012 at 14:47 | ||
| Post# 614900 , Reply# 27 8/5/2012 at 12:56 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Well that one appeared just for a minute, then I wanted to d | ||
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Post# 614912 , Reply# 28 8/5/2012 at 14:39 (4,271 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian) |
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For dj-gabriele and kenmoreguy89 May I kindly suggest the same politeness and mutual respect that we all do our best to apply here? May I note that, despite the technical interest, the tone of the exchange makes this discussion impossible to read? May I add that, as far as I can remember, one-to-one discussions are not a sign of the finest "netiquette"? | ||
| Post# 614923 , Reply# 30 8/5/2012 at 15:25 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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donprohel You're right... | ||
| Post# 614926 , Reply# 31 8/5/2012 at 15:45 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Anyway, as donprohel said, back on topic!
Well after claiming that I edited all the rude parts.... "back on topic" Wow! My compliments really!
I just edited that sentence all the rest is how it was, and anyway insulting is just different from being "rude" and I'm wondering how people can understand a tone from a text ....... anyway earlier posts and response are there to be read, I don't think I have been rude for first. Anyway I've been wrong and unrespectful towards others members and I apologize from my side again with everyone who may get thru this thread and ours discussions. Sorry. | ||
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Post# 614934 , Reply# 32 8/5/2012 at 16:16 (4,271 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Well
Perhaps you may learn from the responses you get and why you have had to apologise to more than one longstanding member...you do come across as strong, rude and agressive in your writing tone - BUT - I can forgive you as you like Servis Supertwins....Lol
Back to HEAT PUMPS..the main factor will be energy costs and long term savings again depending of the country you are from and the energy tariffs being charged, having used the V-Zug you do have to get used to them operating slightly differently from a condenser....and with condensers they are more maintenance than a simple vented option, I find them to be quieter and quicker to dry than previous Asko condenser, my only gripe was I used to want a fast turnaround of 6 king size beds after a houseful of visitors and with mixed cotton bedding I would spin everything at max extract 1600rpm, any creases would then drop out on the LOWER Heat in the Asko condenser, with the Zug heat pump because there was hardly any moisture the heat pump had done its job very quickly resulting in no heat build up so creasing stayed...I got round it by spinning at lower speeds but in my eyes it was IMHO a step retrograde. 
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| Post# 614936 , Reply# 33 8/5/2012 at 16:27 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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| Post# 614937 , Reply# 34 8/5/2012 at 16:31 (4,271 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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I just can't get any sense from it......
Please what you mean? If you wish I ask you to send an email so we will not fill this thread with others off topic things, but I just want to understand what you ment.... I don't think being rude or having rude ways of doing, at least nobody never said me that...... Please I'd like to understand. Thanks | ||
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