Thread Number: 42171
New here and in need of a little help.
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Post# 620868   8/28/2012 at 15:27 (4,249 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Hubby is going to pick up a KDB-21B tonight and wondered if anyone can help me really understand what im getting.




Post# 620874 , Reply# 1   8/28/2012 at 16:33 (4,249 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Almost bottom of the line!

But a good machine nonetheless!
This would be a Hobart dsesigned Kitchenaid series 21 dishwasher but it is the "builders" model which would have been installed when the house was built. It may have only a limited selection of cycles but will no doubt have a Full cycle and a Rinse and Hold at the least. Perhaps an energy saving switch for the drying unit where you can deselect the heated air to dry the dishes. When you get it, post some pics and we can help you sort thru it better.

IIRC, it should still heat the water on the wash cycle fills and continue to heat during the wash cycle to maintain the water temp in the tank. You will still hav e the pumpo with the metal food disposer unit in it which will grind up just about anything you throw at it(though you should still scrape the dishes first).


Post# 620885 , Reply# 2   8/28/2012 at 16:56 (4,249 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Thanks!!! I am waiting on a text back about another one. The add says " NEEDS GASKET FOR EITHER WATER INLET OR OUTLET"

Not sure if its worth looking in to or not. Waiting to find out what model. Bottom line is my 6 year old DW is dead and im hand washing for a family of 6. I refuse to let any new or newer DW back in this house.


Post# 620890 , Reply# 3   8/28/2012 at 17:23 (4,249 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Ok so the other one is looking like a KUDS23 model. Which one should I choose LOL??

Post# 620900 , Reply# 4   8/28/2012 at 18:22 (4,248 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        
Which one should I choose LOL?

qsd-dan's profile picture
Between those particular 2, the KUDS23. It's TOL.

Post# 620904 , Reply# 5   8/28/2012 at 18:29 (4,248 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

There are members here who feel the KUDS23 has a better pump and filter system than earlier models.  That machine will definitely give you more cycle options than the KDB21, which you may find helpful considering it will be tackling big jobs generated by a large family, and it will operate much more quietly.

 

I'd be suspicious of the seller's speculation about needing a gasket for the inlet or outlet, and suggest you ask them to elaborate or show you just where the leak is located.  If it needs a new pump seal, that's a much bigger job, and you may not find a repair service willing to deal with a machine of that age.  A KUDS23 would date back to the mid-90's or so.


Post# 620919 , Reply# 6   8/28/2012 at 19:36 (4,248 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
Jen:

danemodsandy's profile picture
"I refuse to let any new or newer DW back in this house."

I'm going to let more knowledgeable people than myself guide you, but I did want to say one thing:

With an attitude like you expressed in the quote above, you're going to make a lot of friends here!

Welcome.


Post# 620953 , Reply# 7   8/28/2012 at 21:54 (4,248 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Hubby picked the KDB-21B since he is so familiar with Hobart's quality. We shall see!!

The other one is listed on detroit-metro craigslist for $25. Sorry not sure how to do a direct link.

At this point I want a machine to wash rather than me. My poor hands are cracked and can't keep up with the demands of a large family. Options overwhelm me so maybe no options is a good match for my first vintage appliance?


Post# 620954 , Reply# 8   8/28/2012 at 21:59 (4,248 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Here's a picture and the link to the KUDS23, however it sure looks like that horizontal light says "Rinsed Only," which would make it pre-23 series, no?

 

Nice looking machine regardless, with the panel I like best.  I wish one of these would turn up around here.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO rp2813's LINK on Detroit Craigslist

Post# 620955 , Reply# 9   8/28/2012 at 22:04 (4,248 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture

Anyone know if this model has a calrod heater?

 

If not, crank up your water heater until 150F water is coming out of the kitchen faucet.

 

Personally, I immediately install a drain impeller and seal kit in every KitchenAid I get. This prevents motor bearing damage from a leaky seal down the road.


Post# 621015 , Reply# 10   8/29/2012 at 07:58 (4,248 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KD Water Heater ?

combo52's profile picture

All KA DWs built after the 18s have water heating capabilities. So it may be risky and expensive with many children in the house to raise the water temp too much. I would add insulation to this DW when you install it and if used on the heavier cycles it should do a great job with a water temperature entering the machine somewhere between 120-130 degrees and the machine will last much longer at a slightly cooler temperatures.


Post# 621050 , Reply# 11   8/29/2012 at 11:21 (4,248 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Thanks! Hubby is going to help me get the insulation blanket on today. I was in such a hurry last night to do a test run that I hooked it up and just slid it in to place. Today is permanent installation.

drain impeller and seal kit is this something I have to order online or can I get it from Lowes?


Post# 621081 , Reply# 12   8/29/2012 at 14:32 (4,248 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
can I get it from Lowes?

rp2813's profile picture

No offense, but . . . ROFL!  If only it were that convenient. 

 

SteveT or other experts can advise if it's available through Hobart.  Believe it or not, the fact that you went for the older Hobart machine increases your chances of finding the seal.

 

So how did the test run go?  Inquiring minds (and we have a lot of those here) want to know!


Post# 621085 , Reply# 13   8/29/2012 at 14:59 (4,248 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Sorry I didn't know if it was a simple seal that was universal or something that was a hunted item. I am brand spanking new at vintage appliances :)

I am still shocked as I look out my back door and see my 6 year old DW sitting out there ready to be taken to the scrap yard. I paid $600 for it. It just disgusts me that everything I first bought when we bought our house is now needing to be replaced because it has broken.


Post# 621086 , Reply# 14   8/29/2012 at 15:01 (4,248 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Oh and the test run was great. 53 mins from start of cycle to the start of the drying. I was AMAZED. My old DW was 2 hours before it got to the dry cycle.

A few items had food left on them but they were insanely think and caked on.


Post# 621089 , Reply# 15   8/29/2012 at 15:11 (4,248 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
Jen:

danemodsandy's profile picture
"A few items had food left on them but they were insanely thick and caked on."

Today's non-phosphate dishwasher detergents are not nearly as effective at removing that kind of soil as those of yesteryear.

That having been said, some of today's detergents are way better than others, and the addition of a small amount of STPP (sodium tripolyphosphate) to each load will work wonders in getting things clean.

Again, I'll let more knowledgeable people here advise you further, but I did want you to know that even more improvements in automatic dishwashing are possible.


Post# 621129 , Reply# 16   8/29/2012 at 17:14 (4,248 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
Phosphates

rp2813's profile picture

This could be an issue with your vintage machine.  Phosphates were removed from dishwasher detergents across the board about two years ago or so, and spotting, filming, and generally poor cleaning results ensued across the country.  You can find institutional detergents that still have phosphates, but you'll have to look for such products somewhere besides the supermarket.  Your previous dishwasher could manage without phosphates because it ran so damned long.  Older machines were designed to get the job done quickly, but also presumed the detergent would contain phosphates.

 

If your water is soft enough, you may get away with phosphate-free detergent.  I've read here that people are having good luck with the "power ball" and packet/tablet types of detergents, but take a good look at them to make sure they'll fit in your dispenser.  Also, using a product like "Lemishine" (basically citric acid and available at Target) will help.   I'd recommend running a full cycle with Lemishine (with dishwasher empty) to clean the interior and other components before putting the machine into regular use.  But first, with tub door open flat -- and you won't be able to see it unless you stick your head inside the tub but you can just feel around with your fingers -- all along the bottom of the door there's a lip where funky greasy residue tends to accumulate.  Clean that stuff up and keep tabs on it going forward.

 

Any items with caked-on soil should be placed on the bottom rack tilted toward the center of the tub to give the 4-way Hydrosweep spray arm the best chance at getting them clean.


Post# 621141 , Reply# 17   8/29/2012 at 18:09 (4,247 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

I called the city and the water report said there were 6.5 grains per gallon. I have a Gordons Food Service I am going to see if they still sell the food service Cascade.

I stuck my head in and all seals look great around the door. This unit doesnt look like it was used much at all. Now there is crud (rust or something) in the middle where it looks like someone used it, removed it and it has sat every since. Any recommendations that will cut through that?


Post# 621241 , Reply# 18   8/30/2012 at 02:50 (4,247 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture
 

and if used on the heavier cycles it should do a great job with a water temperature entering the machine somewhere between 120-130 degrees and the machine will last much longer at a slightly cooler temperatures.

 
 If all 19+ series have water heating capabilities, then the thermo is still going to the heat the water up to 150F before washing, regardless of the incoming water temperature that is entering the dishwasher.
 
Even with 152F water at the tap, my KDS-19 takes 10-11 minutes of heating to satisfy the 150F thermo. This is cut in half if I use the "Heavy  Duty" cycle, which simply fills and then immediately purges, once the water valve closes.
 
With an incoming water temp of 120F, it would probably take a half hour or more of heating to satisfy the thermo. Since electric rates are more expensive here (and in most places in the US) than gas, it would be more costly to use your procedure.

 


Post# 621312 , Reply# 19   8/30/2012 at 10:41 (4,247 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

I'm not understanding where the "crud/rust" area is.  Can you be more specific?  Pictures would definitely help.

 

Also, in my previous post I wasn't referring to the door gaskets, I was directing you to the bottom of the door itself where there is no gasket, just an overlapping section that keeps the water inside the tub.  It's that overlapping lip at the bottom of the door that accumulates residue and should be wiped clean periodically.


Post# 621317 , Reply# 20   8/30/2012 at 11:27 (4,247 days old) by retropia ()        

Our local GFS still carries Cascade Institutional/Foodservice powder with phosphates, and it works great.


Post# 621403 , Reply# 21   8/30/2012 at 18:58 (4,246 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture

Also, in my previous post I wasn't referring to the door gaskets, I was directing you to the bottom of the door itself where there is no gasket, just an overlapping section that keeps the water inside the tub. It's that overlapping lip at the bottom of the door that accumulates residue and should be wiped clean periodically.

Actually, some Kitchenaid models came with a lower door seal gasket. Both of my KDS-18's had one, but the 19 didn't.


Post# 621409 , Reply# 22   8/30/2012 at 19:52 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Here is where the hard stuck on crud that I can not get off.



Post# 621416 , Reply# 23   8/30/2012 at 20:39 (4,246 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
No big deal!

That staining looks like it is from water that stayed in the sump and evaporated leaving behind all the minerals and other stuff in the water. Remove the washarm, and the filters and use some soft scrub or cerama bryte and it should come off. Also, with the commercial Cascade, it should help it come off too.
I hope you enjoy this machine as it will do a fine job for you.
I also see that it lacks the sump heater..Builders model deletion! That would help explain the fast cycle time. No water heating delay.
You will have to make sure that your water is up around 140-150 degrees or so for the detergent to work correctly. Can you provide a picture of the right rear corner so we can see what type of drying system it has, and how about the control panel close-up?
Thanks


Post# 621424 , Reply# 24   8/30/2012 at 21:13 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Sure let me go take some more pics for you.

Post# 621425 , Reply# 25   8/30/2012 at 21:18 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Inside

Post# 621426 , Reply# 26   8/30/2012 at 21:19 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Panel at a distance

Post# 621427 , Reply# 27   8/30/2012 at 21:26 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Sorry for some reason the pics are way small now. I can't seem to get my cellphone to cooperate with me.

I can't delete so trying to add another picture of up close


Post# 621428 , Reply# 28   8/30/2012 at 21:28 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Right side

Post# 621429 , Reply# 29   8/30/2012 at 21:29 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

I took the tap water temp and it is at 133 degrees but I can bump it up a notch.

Post# 621450 , Reply# 30   8/30/2012 at 22:33 (4,246 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Thanks!

for the pics. At least you have the heated air dryer. That machine has the 3 most desired cycles and very often, the light/china cycle will get your dishes clean.With the lack of a tank heater, you will probably have to use the heated dry to get the dishes dry and it is a good idea to do that insulation blanket you spoke about previously. I usually double wrap my machines to help keep the heat in. And some noise out.

Post# 621452 , Reply# 31   8/30/2012 at 22:44 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

So far I am absolutely in love. I am using up the cascade tablets that I had and water temp is 133 and stuff is coming out great. The first load had a few stuck on spots but those were gross spoons that were rock hard stuff. I have used the normal load option only. I am hoping in the next few loads to use the light and see how well it cleans.



Post# 621455 , Reply# 32   8/30/2012 at 23:13 (4,246 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

No need to add anything to what Steve-the-Hobart-SME has stated above.

 

You can't get more simple and straight-forward than this with a KitchenAid dishwasher!

 

Interesting how the timer has an "Off" position between Rinse/Hold and Normal cycles.  Saved them a selector button and related wiring.  Truly unusual and the most BOL model offered, but still an entirely capable machine.

 

Congratulations Jen!  You should get many years of trouble-free service from your "new" KitchenAid!

 

P.S.

 

See you back here when your modern clothes washer fails.  ;-)




This post was last edited 08/31/2012 at 04:07
Post# 621547 , Reply# 33   8/31/2012 at 08:24 (4,246 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)        
HOT water.

volvoguy87's profile picture
In my house, I am re-doing the water heating system and most of the plumbing. I am debating the best way to get really hot water. I want my primary hot water to be 120 degrees. This will feed all the taps, showers, and the back spigot (mixing valve spigots are GREAT!). I want 150 degrees or so to go to all the washing machines and dishwashers. I've got 2 options.

Option 1, have a small tankless water heater to boost the temperature of the hot water for my appliances (30 degree temperature rise won't require a big one).

Option 2 is to have the water heater set to 150 all the time and then use a thermostatic mixing valve to temper the water down to 120 for the taps. A thermostatic mixing valve mixes cold water into hot water to make warm water. It can also extend the capacity of a tank-style water heater because the tank of water is kept at a higher temperature, but less of it is used to make a given volume of tempered water. In my system, the 120 degree tempered water would supply most of the plumbing, but I would install a T fitting to supply un-tempered 150 degree water to my appliances.

My water heating system will be highly efficient, and it will be less expensive to heat water via water heater than via heaters in individual appliances. It will also reduce wear and tear on the appliances by reducing the time spent in a heating delay.

Clear as mud?
Dave


Post# 621570 , Reply# 34   8/31/2012 at 10:54 (4,246 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

rp2813 LOL too funny about the washer. I was telling hubby that I would honestly cry like a little girl when my washer dies. Isn't it a shame that a BOL vintage is way better than a new DW from today? The older I get the more I find I want simplicity. I don't want to think my way through complication.

Dave - Yep clear as mud. Now my hubby will understand :P


Post# 621572 , Reply# 35   8/31/2012 at 11:15 (4,246 days old) by retropia ()        

Would a little vinegar or LimeAway in the sump on top of those mineral deposits also work to remove them? I often use vinegar to dissolve the mineral deposits that build up on our faucet spouts and aerators.


Post# 621589 , Reply# 36   8/31/2012 at 14:23 (4,246 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

And Jen, for now you're running the tap at the sink until the water is at its hottest before starting the dishwasher, right?

 

Also, I don't know what the rest of your kitchen looks like, but are you aware that you can still get the stainless steel door and access panel inserts for your KDB21 through Sears parts?

 

 


Post# 621617 , Reply# 37   8/31/2012 at 16:54 (4,246 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture

I took the tap water temp and it is at 133 degrees but I can bump it up a notch.

Yeah, bump it up to at least 140F.

I found a night and day difference in cleaning from my old reverse rack Maytag by simply increasing the tap temp from 140F to 150F. This is the reason behind my 150F recommendation.


Post# 621643 , Reply# 38   8/31/2012 at 18:58 (4,245 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

No I haven't been running the tap first. Honestly I load it and turn it on and come back an hour later to beautifully cleaned dishes. I'll try the tips and see how much better we can get it :)

Post# 621649 , Reply# 39   8/31/2012 at 20:27 (4,245 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
Washer Tip:

danemodsandy's profile picture
If your washer ever dies, get back to us and we'll give you the secret Maytag handshake.

Simplest, most straightforward engineering in the business and longevity like you would not believe.

Mine are from 1977 or so. I got into Maytags when a more "modern" washer broke down, and I was astonished at how much cleaner the first load came out than the results from my old machines.

In fact, you might even enjoy switching before you have to. Jus' sayin'.



Post# 621670 , Reply# 40   8/31/2012 at 23:18 (4,245 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Lol I'vebeen bittenby the bug...I sent an email on another DW. Its too pretty not to.

Post# 621671 , Reply# 41   8/31/2012 at 23:22 (4,245 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture
No I haven't been running the tap first. Honestly I load it and turn it on and come back an hour later to beautifully cleaned dishes.
 
Pretty soon, we'll have you shooting up and racing to the kitchen faucet for a good purging every time you hear it drain. I get a good laugh from friends and family members when I do that with the 18's and the 19, lol.
 
We'll give you the secret Maytag handshake.
 
Love it!
 
That Series 2 806 washer and 808 dryer are stunning, Sandy.
 
Still don't understand your squeamish issues with the Almond color ;>)
 
Those remind me of the set Revinkevin use to have.


Post# 621678 , Reply# 42   9/1/2012 at 00:36 (4,245 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

Lol the hubby already thinks I'm nuts...what's running through the house to run the tap haha :-P


Post# 621687 , Reply# 43   9/1/2012 at 01:26 (4,245 days old) by washer111 ()        

Nice work on replacing something modern with something old! 

 

Who cares if its a BOL model, as long as it gets the job done, you are perfectly alright! 6grains of water hardness is described as moderate hardness. I would definitely recommend you get some STPP from the link below, and add maybe 1/4-1/2 a tsp. with every load in the Main-Wash detergent cup. 

 

If you have a recirculation system for your hot water heater, ensure that is running, that way, you don't have to race after the dishwasher when you here the ol' girl snap into the draining cycle. That, or just keep the water heater really hot, to help make up for any lack of heat as the line is initially purged.

 

Sorry to have to hijack this thread, but how many rinses do the KA's run post-wash, and how long do they run. This would determine whether Jen has to go and run the hot tap each time the machine drains, or just at the end of the Main-Wash. (I happen to do this for our DishDrawer, since we have solar heater water).

Also, does this BOL model run any Pre-Rinses/Washes?

 

If I were you, I'd have the water heater right up at 150F, that way, you'll get 100% detergent dissolving in the relatively short Main-Washing period (and it'll help sanitise your dishes, if you happen to be a germaphobe, like me!)

 

One last question, could you tell us how long it takes you to run the water hot in your kitchen when the lines have sat for around an hour? That way, we could figure out whether you really need to "waste-water" running the tap (I s'pose you could justify it by washing your hands lots, *lol*)

 

Congratulations and Good Luck with your KitchenAid. I envy you so much (Not because our DishDrawer is crap - its because I'd like to have a nice old dishwasher :] )!


Post# 621689 , Reply# 44   9/1/2012 at 01:31 (4,245 days old) by AutoWasherFreak ()        

Those early Maytags are some of best and most dependable washers and dryers ever made!


Post# 621703 , Reply# 45   9/1/2012 at 03:29 (4,245 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

I only run the tap once before starting the machine.   Because my machine has automatic water heating, I don't bother running the tap before each subsequent fill.  The water stays hot enough to provide the machine with at least the minimum temperature required for the automatic heating system to bring it the rest of the way up to optimum wash temp.

 

That's one of the things that annoyed me about the Thundering Thermador's steam cycles.  It would take up to 45 minutes to complete the steaming sequence, and by that time the water in the pipes was such that it was like giving the dishes a cold shower after that steam bath.  A ridiculous gimmick on an over-all ridiculous excuse for a dishwasher.  It was beautiful on the outside, though.

 

My Hobart-inspired ISE Classic Supreme has been a delight to use after giving the TT the boot a year and a half ago, and of course it's infinitely quieter.  Almost anything would be.


Post# 621710 , Reply# 46   9/1/2012 at 04:32 (4,245 days old) by JenD (Michigan )        

washer111 - I can turn the tap on and it gets pretty hot reasonably fast. I bought Cascade professional for food service today and ran a load. Worked very well.

Post# 621713 , Reply# 47   9/1/2012 at 05:28 (4,245 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
Dan - Almond

danemodsandy's profile picture
"Still don't understand your squeamish issues with the Almond color"

Because Almond was invented for the express purpose of concealing - up to a point - a film of kitchen grease and dust. By the second half of the 1970s, when the color was introduced, housekeeping was falling by the wayside in many homes, in favor of two-career households.

Almond was considered to stay "clean-looking" longer than other colors. I don't particularly care for "clean-looking." I like clean.

So, that's my frotz about Almond.


Post# 621715 , Reply# 48   9/1/2012 at 05:54 (4,245 days old) by washer111 ()        
@ JenD

My assumption is, you don't have to draw more than around a gallon of water? (That would be around 8secs, I suppose).

 

In that case, I would just set the water heater really hot, then maybe get tempering valves for your showers/sinks if its practical. That way, any "cold" fill in the KA machine will be negated with flaming hot water. You'll probably notice better drying/washing results that way too



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