Thread Number: 42371
kenmore bd trans swap questions
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Post# 623465   9/8/2012 at 18:14 (4,218 days old) by duked ()        

I'm having to move and will only be able to take one set of laundry appliances with me. currently I have a 72 lady k washer that I've had to patch the tub and will no longer stay balanced but the mechanics are fine, and a 66 lady k set that everything is perfect except for the transmission is dead in the washer. My question is what all am i going to have to go through to change the transmission? I've looked for a write up but haven't found one yet. Also even though everything electrical was fine when i last used the 66 now a year later when I turn it on it'll fill and all but when the motor is supposed to start it just hums and all the speed indicator lights turn on.




Post# 623485 , Reply# 1   9/8/2012 at 20:53 (4,218 days old) by 1966_mustang ()        

Hey Man your LOCAL!!! WOW... I have done this transmision swap on a 1966 WP. It is not terribly tough...

Need to take the Inner tub and Agitator out first...

Then you will need a nice sturdy low table to turn the machine up on its front so you can get to its under neath....

Are you good at working on cars??

I could come over one weekend to help..



Post# 623486 , Reply# 2   9/8/2012 at 21:44 (4,218 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

kenmore71's profile picture
Transmission "transplants" are certainly possible. I have been witness to one and heard stories of quite a few others. It is fussy, exacting work to say the least. The first part that can be difficult is getting the old transmission out. On one hand, I pulled the transmission out of a 1965 700 a while back and only needed wrenches and a rubber mallet. Earlier this summer I watched someone try to remove a transmission and that involved a torch, hack saw, a lot of swearing and liquor!

And then you never know what you're going to find once you start pulling things apart. Hopefully one of the baseplates is in overall good condition. Then there's the spin tube and the two center post bearings...Also the 1972 Lady K is going to have the Quiet Pak belt, pulleys and motor mount. I honestly can't say if you can transplant a BD transmission with the "Quiet Pak" into a machine designed for a standar transmission. John, Gordon or someone who has experience much of this than I have can certainly weigh in here and correct anything that is suspect in my thoughts.


Post# 623488 , Reply# 3   9/8/2012 at 21:47 (4,218 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)        
I don't mean to ask a silly question, but...

redcarpetdrew's profile picture
How do you know it's the transmission and not something possibly less hectic?

RCD


Post# 623519 , Reply# 4   9/9/2012 at 00:29 (4,218 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Transmission compatibility

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
Duke -

The transmissions are definitely compatible between the two Lady Ks, however if this were my job to do I would be aware that the transmission in the '72 may not be in complete re-usable shape, AND as stated by others above, is not an entirely simple procedure for a novice.

My first recommendation is to get a Kenmore or Whirlpool produced repair manual, which will outline the removal and re-installation procedure. You should have one of those anyway if you're going to rely on a belt-drive washer. Then, remove the agitator in the '72, or at least try. Do the same, or at least try, in the '66 as well.

Both the '72 and the '66 are, at least in well used machines, prone to having rusted-on agitators, which will be very difficult to remove. The 72's can be taken out with the aid of an Agitamer, however if stuck, this will often reveal very rusted agitator splines, meaning the shaft cannot be re-used, and thus rendering the transmission useless unless you have a new agitator shaft. The '66's agitator cannot be removed with an agitamer, not in my view anyway, and if REALLY stuck, can only be removed by breaking it out with a large screw driver or similar. You'd have to use another agitator other than a Roto-Flex at that point unless you have access to a spare.

If you're lucky enough to have one or two agitators that will come off their splines by pulling, you're doing well. The swap job after that isn't that bad, however as Mark was eluding to, transmissions that have worn themselves into place need considerable coaxing to get out, as spin tubes can wear grooves onto the agitator shaft, and the centerpost can wear grooves into the spin tube, thereby clamping everything together in ways they weren't when assembled at the factory.

If you get to the point that the '72's transmission is going to go into the '66, also as mentioned above, the quiet-pak drive pulley on that transmission must be removed in favor of the '66's or similar pulley. All four pulleys (Motor, pump, basket drive, and transmission) must all be for the same belt, either way.

Start with trying to get out the agitators and see what you have at that point, then we can re-group.

Gordon


Post# 623641 , Reply# 5   9/9/2012 at 14:22 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

i have had the agitator and inner drum out of the 72 already everything was pretty clean on that machine it had just been stored with water in the tub and outter tub rusted away. i corrently have the agitator off the 66 but havent tried to get the inner tub out shouldnt be too hard just have to get the inner tub to stop spinning.

1966_mustang: yeah I am very good with cars. and any help would be great

redcarpetdrew: I had a thread on here earlier and the general concensus was it was screwed it never fully engages agitate itll sometimes work if it sits for like 20 minutes or if you yank on the agitator at just the right time.it also never locks the agitator either so it liked to try to agitate during the spin

kenmoreguy64: I already have both agitators out. I was lucky both just popped off.



Post# 623691 , Reply# 6   9/9/2012 at 16:40 (4,217 days old) by 1966_mustang ()        

ruked,

If your good with cars then replaceing that transmission will not be that tough. The key is bening able to have the Wash sit on a table on its front where you can get to the underneath really good....

There are plenty of NEW rebuilt transmissions out there from what I can tell... about 150 bucks..


Post# 623705 , Reply# 7   9/9/2012 at 17:22 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

currently I need to save as much money as I can, also I dont really want to trash the 72 since it works but i wouldnt feel right selling it cause of how jurry rigged it is. so im justifying parting it out as a reason to junk it especially since everything on it mechanically seems like new.

I'm gonna try in a couple of hours to get them up on a tableand start cleaning and looking at all thats involved.


Post# 623717 , Reply# 8   9/9/2012 at 19:12 (4,217 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
Duke -

There is no need to put the machines on a table. I have done every bit of work like this with the machine laying on the floor, usually on its front. Always put a pad (I use old bathroom rugs) under the machine. This is the vantage point that WP and Sears service manuals are written from, however if you can get a machine elevated on a table, it might be easier on your back doing the work standing up vs. sitting.

What color is your '72? I might be interested in some parts from it if you go that route.

Gordon


Post# 623718 , Reply# 9   9/9/2012 at 19:14 (4,217 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Changing a WP BD Washers transmission

combo52's profile picture

You DON'T need a table to do this just lay an old blanket on the floor and lay the washer on it. You also do NOT need to remove the washers basket to change the transmission, the transmission pulls out independently from the basket drive assembly and unless you are doing a complete mechanical restoration the less stuff you disturb the better.


Post# 623731 , Reply# 10   9/9/2012 at 20:06 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

the 72 is harvest gold im willing to strip anything off anyone wants ill post pics up when i can.

Post# 623809 , Reply# 11   9/10/2012 at 04:33 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

well.....that was easy got the trans out of the 66. took me all of 15 minutes. has a very easy to understand way of mounting which i wished car manufactures could understand. poor thing smells aweful and is coated in oil and dirt. least when it came out there were no signs of leaks or of anything such as that. so we should be good to go once im able to flip the 72 over.

Post# 623810 , Reply# 12   9/10/2012 at 04:38 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

heres the old transmission in all its faded glory. now just need to figure out what to do with it. noticed when taking this picture that the agitaton cam arm is in agitate but the plunger isnt down. gently* tried to persuede it to engage but it wont move least i now can be certain its definetly the trans.


* with a hammer


Post# 623811 , Reply# 13   9/10/2012 at 04:40 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

agitate plunger stuck in the disengage position.

Post# 623856 , Reply# 14   9/10/2012 at 08:16 (4,217 days old) by duked ()        

well, got the other transmission out. took no time at all as nothing was in tight im pretty sure its had its transmission either out or replaced. only thing keeping me from throwing it together now is the t bearings on the machines are way different the older one has a collar and a bronze bearing and the new one just has a plastic bearing. I understand there should be a retainer ball on the plastic one but its long gone. would i be better off using the original collar and bearing off the 66 or should i try to find the bits to use the plastic one.

Post# 623997 , Reply# 15   9/10/2012 at 18:32 (4,216 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Tee bearing

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Use the older one, it is completely interchangeable.


Post# 624006 , Reply# 16   9/10/2012 at 18:58 (4,216 days old) by duked ()        

i did use the old one. new transmission is in, working great. only issues now are I dont have the spring on the spin clutch pivot all the way (the little one with the spring clip retainer, big hands just couldnt do it) and I think cause of that spins a little weak. I had done what I had read on one site and loosened the mounting bolts, then put it in spin ,and tightened back. that helped but still just seems sluggish.

Post# 624095 , Reply# 17   9/11/2012 at 04:53 (4,216 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
Duke -

You say you used the old bronze T-bearing? If so, what did you support it with on the new shaft? Did you take the support collar off the old agi shaft? The tee-bearing cannot rest directly on the gearcase cover and work properly. It would need the collar from the old shaft to hold it up. Some newer transmissions don't have both a groove for the collar and the hole for the support ball. Thus, if there is no support for the tee-bearing, you will have a sluggish or non-spin condition as you describe.

Look in the crevaces of both washer cabinets, and in the oily areas of the newer gearcase cover, especially in the far corner where the spin cam rides - they sometimes conceal the new T-bearing ball very well. If the '72 was spinning properly before, the support ball should be around somewhere. You can assure that the t-bearing ball is held in place in the agitator shaft with a little dab of grease if you can find it - that way it won't fall out again. If you got the tee-bearing on correctly, this is a mute point and you can ignore these two paragraphs...

As to the spring, I am not sure which one you're talking about - the two-inch or so long spring that runs between the clutch plate and the edge of the gearcase is essential. Needle-nose pliers are the best way to go in installing this. Sounds more like you're referring to the white plastic retainer clip that holds the other side of the clutch plate to the post on the gearcase -- this is also essential. If the original '66 basket drive had a spring and cotter pin to hold these in place on the support post, and the '72's had a white plastic clip, that clip should be able to be transplanted onto the old clutch plate. If this clip cracks or breaks, which they do sometimes in handling, you'll need to replace it. This will also cause a poor spin condition.

If memory serves, some factory replacement trasmissions have accomodations for both types of tee-bearing support and can work with both types of clutch plate clips? I am not 100% sure about the clips. The white plastic snap clip is easier to work with than the old spring and pin, but either way, these must be engaged securely for the machine to spin properly.

Good luck!

Gordon





This post was last edited 09/11/2012 at 05:25
Post# 624107 , Reply# 18   9/11/2012 at 06:44 (4,216 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Tee bearings

combo52's profile picture

Hi Gordon, what years did WP use which Tee Bearings ? I am familiar with all the different types of coerce but don't remember the exact year they used which. I do think that all agitator shafts had a hole drilled to accommodate either the original style with a set screw or the last style with the steel ball and white plastic bearing. I would have thought that they were not using the ball style in 1972 yet, but instead the black plastic bearing with the clips below.  John


Post# 624133 , Reply# 19   9/11/2012 at 08:57 (4,216 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
John,

Intersting question! You have worked on a lot of older machines than I have, and and thus you may be aware of more Tee bearing designs than I am (for example, the one you mentioned with a set screw - I've never seen one of those). That said, here's what I can tell you:

The oldest machine I've worked on in great detail is a 1960/1961. It had the non-set-screw bronze bearing with the retainer ring/C-clip underneath it. That machine showed signs of work, so the gearcase may not have been original. It did have a keyway on the agitator shaft for the drive block vs. splines. The newest machine that I recall in detail having the bronze bearing was a 1967 Kenmore 70, which I rebuilt including bearings in 1991. I remember that one well because I had only seen plastic tee-bearings prior to that one and remarked about it.

Most of the machines I worked on in the early 90s had the black plastic tee bearing which fits on the same C-clip as the previous bronze. These would all have been 1970s models. I remember one in particular very well as I installed the black bearing upside down, which looking back was funny...but not so much at the time. I suspect that these came about with the fast brake design in 1971, however I am not certain. Everything I saw from then until the second half of the 70s had the black bearing.

It wasn't until a 1978 model, or so, when I discovered the beige/ivory colored plastic tee bearing with the retainer ball. If that is right, that would coincide with the evolution of the short centerpost. I don't know if the two are connected, but until I got used to securing those retainer balls in place with a dob of grease, I was forever cursing them because they fall out, sometimes at the most inopportune times...they work great though when you know how to use them properly.

So, I'd say bronze until the late 60s or so, black plastic until late 70s, and the light plastic thereafter.

As to the shaft configurations, I do know that some of the mid 70s machines only accomodated the C-clip and had no holes for a set-screw or ball. Learned that one the hard way too because I went to do a gearcase swap and didn't have all the right parts one time. That flippin' clip/retainer ring was a pain trying to marry onto the agitator shaft until I learned how to do it. If memory serves this was a standard capacity 1976 built Kenmore. I don't think machines were made very long this way however (with just the clip only). I have a carbon copy of that machine again now - it might be an interesting thing to check sometime.

You brought up an interesting thought though with this, as it relates to Duke's machines. Duke...if your tee-bearing on the 1972's transmission is black plastic, you won't need the retaining ball and your machine never had one originally. When you said something about the missing ball, and it being a possible replacement transmission, I just assumed you had a newer gearcase with the light colored bearing and never considered that the '72's original gearcase would have the black plastic one. If it does, then both transmissions should have the same retainer clip and you'd be golden to use either tee bearing in either machine. ALSO, if that is an original '72 gearcase, then you may have had the same spring and clip on both machines to secure the rear-facing side of the basket drive yoke/plate. Big hands don't fit in there well, I know, but to get the right spin, you must re-secure that pin in the groove on the support shaft. The belt gets in the way...

I was complaining to Andy in April at Kevin's wash-in, while working on his 1966 Lady K, that these springs were a pain, and his installed properly, the first time, lol. I've sent those springs flying across my garage in trying to fenagle with them, so be mindful of that. I usually use a flat bladed screw driver to compress the spring a little, and needle nose pliers to insert the cotter pin.

Gordon





Post# 624156 , Reply# 20   9/11/2012 at 11:18 (4,216 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Tee bearings

combo52's profile picture

Thanks for all the input Gordon, I do know that the black plastic Tee Bearing did not appear until around 1970 and before that ALL WPs had the steel collar with the set screw and a bronze bearing sitting on top, there were no [awful] retaining clips before the black plastic tee bearings.


Post# 624228 , Reply# 21   9/11/2012 at 16:11 (4,215 days old) by duked ()        

I used the set screw retainer collar and the bronze bearing. The tee bearing on the 72 was black but there was no clips I assumed there was a ball cause there was a place i thought was for it, but soon realized it was just where the set screw for the collar goes. As for the spring I mean the little bastard with the cotter clip. both transmissions had the same hook up for that I just couldn't get it on. It's on there but not very well. Gonna try and get a friend of mine with tiny hands to help me.

I'm pretty sure that the transmssion from the 72 was a replacement nothing was held together very tight, braces were missing, clips that should be there wern't, and you could tell someone before had gone to great lengths to remove the pulley from something, but since it slid right off when i did it i doubt it was that transmission.


Post# 624243 , Reply# 22   9/11/2012 at 17:02 (4,215 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
John,

I'll defer that to you about the original bronze bearing, even without Duke describing something similar. I sure don't remember a set screw, but it sounds like they were there on those I worked on. I'll pay more attention to the next one! You've worked on too many more of the older ones than I have.

I am betting that few liked the retainer clips with the black plastic bearings? I was always surpised that the clips stayed engaged in the groove with all the weight and forces on them -- such a thin piece of steel for the work it was doing.

Gordon


Post# 624253 , Reply# 23   9/11/2012 at 17:33 (4,215 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Funny story about the basket drive retainer clips we discuss

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
One of the machines in my current collection is a 1986 Kenmore 70. It is not a machine of notoriety, but I've rescued this same machine from scrap twice, once in 1993 and again in 2003. That secured it a place with me...

The machine was only 7.5 years old when I got it in 1993, in very nice shape, and it would have gone within a day to the scrap yard had I not grabbed it and five others. I was surprised at the time that a used appliance store let a seven year old belt-drive out of their clutches, as these were instant sellers on the floor as long as they were in nice physical shape and not avocado, etc.

I got it home, then I knew why they didn't want it. Outside of a tub leak, the later designed yoke retainer clip, which replaced the spring and cotter pin as discussed above, had cracked and come out of its snapped position on the support post. This allowed the rear side of the basket drive yoke to flop around. It eventually came completely off the support post, and was riding pivoted, above it, side to side as much as the limited play would allow. Other than a sluggish spin like Duke described, the moving parts of the clutch plate and brake drum etc. would rub on this yoke, thrashing it around, etc. That yoke is not meant to move around, that's for sure.

Doesn't sound so remarkable, but the machine made sounds I had never heard before, and have not since. Since the yoke is under some pressure, especially during operation, and is heavy gauge steel, it was making some incredible racket which reminded me of a muffled gun shot or the sound of a shoed horse trotting on a cement paved street.

This is one of those repairs that is really satisfying, because you get instant gratification as the problem thus forth was fixed with no funky sounds.

I sold the machine soon after and it did laundry for 9 or 10 years for a newlywed couple who went on to have two babies before the machine developed centerpost seal failure. I'd have liked it to serve longer, but it made it longer than its original term by 25%. The buyers called me and asked if I wanted it back.

In 2009 I re-sealed it and refreshed a thoroughly nasty spoiled transmission which had been full of water, among other work. The water in the gearcase evaporated in the six years previous, but left this unholy black molasses like goo in the gearcase. I use it now fairly regularly. My best memory of this washer though is that broken tiny plastic clip which rendered the whole machine useless....

Gordon


Post# 624300 , Reply# 24   9/11/2012 at 21:27 (4,215 days old) by duked ()        

finally got it. used a screw driver to open the top of the spring a little, put the spring clip on in the middle and wound the sprng on. also found that slow spin was probably actually because I didnt tighten the motor all the way back down after tensioning the belt.


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