Thread Number: 42621
Front loader with COLD and HOT fill 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 627242   9/24/2012 at 06:41 (4,224 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

gorenje's profile picture
Hello people!

I would like to ask you what are your experiences with European front loaders with both, cold & hot fill. Probably the Britains are the ones who can help me the most.

My uncle and aunt just bought a gorenje washer that get connected to cold and hot water and I would like to know if there are some differences in washing performance.
I have mainly in mind some stains that can get set in with warm water.

I know that this kind of washers mixes only a part of hot water, that get then gradually heated up to a hot temperature.

Please tell me your opinions and thoughts.

Thank you in advance :)

Ingemar




Post# 627245 , Reply# 1   9/24/2012 at 07:26 (4,224 days old) by MikeKLondon (London)        
Cold fill works better

Most top end machines in the UK are could fill only, as you rightly say warm water only sets the stain is one point the other is unless the machine is next to the hot tank by the time the hot water gets to the machine its could anyway so its just displaced hot water in the tank, given the small amount of water used in a new FL its much cheaper to run a cold fill

Hope this helps

Post# 627264 , Reply# 2   9/24/2012 at 08:49 (4,224 days old) by DJ-gabriele ()        
In my opinion...

 ...given the small amount of hot water drawn by contemporary machines the double fill feature is just something more than a marketing gimmick and not something worth having.
Plus most machines use the hot water while washing at 60°C or more, washing at 30°C or 40°C usually doesn't trigger the hot water solenoid.

If you consider that you might use less than 10 litres of hot water over the whole cycle, if you have the washer not right below the heater there will be no energy savings but energy losses. You will have to heat that water twice, first with gas/oil and then with electricity.

On the other hand, if one has solar collectors each degree more over ambient temperature is a (small) gain in saving energy.

Also hot water fixes protein and blood stains! Usually that isn't the case because the water cools down to enzyme-safe temperatures while filling the machine but you never know! Hopefully detergents have developed enough to make this a small issue.

Post# 627269 , Reply# 3   9/24/2012 at 09:59 (4,224 days old) by fido ()        

One advantage of hot fill is it dissolves the soap powder in the drawer more efficiently. It is true that a lot of machines fill with only cold on 40 degree or cooler cycles. I might be wrong but my understanding is that a lot of USA made machines don't have any form of heating so rely entirely on incoming hot water for warm washes.

Post# 627272 , Reply# 4   9/24/2012 at 10:13 (4,224 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

Unless one is using an imported machine here, most if not all stateside machines are hot and cold fill. The higher end models have integrated heaters to boost water temperature if needed (or if you select a wash temp that is above your hot water line temperature). My Frigidaire 2140 is very basic and lacks a heater. There is no pre-wash cycle that advances automatically to the main wash cycle. However, it does have a Soak cycle with cold water as the only option. The disadvantage is that you must restart the machine for a Wash cycle after Soak has completed. Results are excellent.

When I wash towels and linens, I use "hot" setting which brings in tank heater water at 140 F or 60 C. My tank water heater is adjacent to the washer, so I do not have a long "run". I have never had a stain set on a bath towel because of filling the machine with hot water for the main wash cycle. However, when particularly difficult stains are present, I try a cold water Soak first, I allow it to complete, then I add more detergent and run a wash cycle at warm or hot temperatures, depending on fabric.

Post# 627274 , Reply# 5   9/24/2012 at 10:21 (4,224 days old) by DJ-gabriele ()        

Never had a problem with detergent residues in the drawer, the water pressure here is so high it is literally blasted away! But even at my parents with low water pressure there's no problem in getting the powder away, it's just a matter of quality in my opinion.

And yes, you're right, American machines don't have heaters and rely on the incoming water. The exception are a few MOL and TOL modern front loaders and even in that case it's a tiny element because of the 120V/15A electric supply.

Post# 627285 , Reply# 6   9/24/2012 at 11:26 (4,224 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        

My machine is hot and cold fill but I wouldn't dream of connecting it to the hot water, complete waste of time as by the time the hot pipes are purged of cold, the machine is filled and washing. Bung a 'Y' piece on and forget all about the hot water supply!

Post# 627286 , Reply# 7   9/24/2012 at 11:27 (4,224 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        

My machine is hot and cold fill but I wouldn't dream of connecting it to the hot water, complete waste of time as by the time the hot pipes are purged of cold, the machine is filled and washing. Bung a 'Y' piece on and forget all about the hot water supply!

Post# 627317 , Reply# 8   9/24/2012 at 14:31 (4,224 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Warm Water Sets Stains

 launderess's profile picture
Is by no means universally true.

When dealing with blood stained items commercial laundries long have started with warm or even hot water combined with alkali to shift, a system that works quite well.

Tap cold water can be anything from 85F to below,and water that is too cold will surely set stains just as hot will. Blood for instance congels at cooler temps which makes it harder to remove.

Post# 627329 , Reply# 9   9/24/2012 at 16:37 (4,224 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Mine is a hot and cold fill. It'll start filling with cold and then switch over to hot. Hot and cold filling alternates to get to a starting temp of, I suppose, 40C. No problems with stains setting so far. Hot comes on even for a warm wash but not for gentle cycles.

At my old place, the water heater was in the next room and it would take approx. two liters to purge to cold line. This was only a problem when washing a very small load, where the initial cold fill was almost enough to saturate the load. This new place does have solar water heating but only cold water in the laundry room. Some time, I'll have to ask my landlord, if I can hook up an extension hose to the laundry sink in the next room (next to the laundry room) to get hot water to the washer. I miss the hot/cold fill.

Alex

Cycle overview

Post# 627331 , Reply# 10   9/24/2012 at 16:40 (4,224 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

I've got a Miele W2888 that's hot and cold fill. We've got solar hotwater so we try and use as much hotwater from the tap as possible.

The maximum temp of the water in our pipes is 55degC, the temp in the Miele is usually about 35degC by the time it fills. We've got a reasonable run from the hotwater tank, but the water is usualy hot within 10 seconds.

The Miele will fill with Hot at any temperature, it just keeps mixing and alternating to make sure the temp in the tub doesnt go over the preset. After the intial fill, if the temp is low, the topups will be with hot. If its a large load on a 40deg cycle the heater sometimes doesnt come on at all.

The thing it doesnt do is use hot for the initial fill that primes the sump to activate the ecoball. If it did that the water would be at temp by the time it started filling the tub.

In winter I disable the hot fill so we dont waste the hotwater. It adds about 15 mins to the 60deg Cycle, but I've not noticed any real performance difference. Either way stains still come out and the washing is clean.

We've got the dishwasher connected to Hot water for the same reason. We've seen no real performance difference, even stuff like egg is still removed. The only pain with that, is I have to switch taps if I ever need to seriously use the Glass cycle which runs at much lower temps.

Post# 627339 , Reply# 11   9/24/2012 at 17:06 (4,224 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

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They have rebuild the house and now they have a heat pump for heating and for hot water, that's why they bought a washer with double fill.
I personally wouldn't have done this, because the water used by modern front loaders are in fact little and I prefer a standard profile wash.

Thank you guys for your comments :)


Post# 627474 , Reply# 12   9/25/2012 at 10:52 (4,223 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

My natural gas bill for last month was $7.50. Of that amount, $4.50 was the "distribution charge", the amount you pay to maintain the company's network even if you use zero gas. The charge for the therms used was $3.00. This included gas for hot water (daily shower plus 4-5 loads of laundry a week plus dishwasher twice a week) and gas for cooking on a gas range (oven and cooktop are gas). Sort of hard to beat those prices using electricity instead.

Washers with integrated heaters here are of two types. The more basic type has a heater that engages only when a very hot cycle ("Sanitize") is chosen, and such a cycle can take two to three hours, which may not seem overly long to Europeans but it's very long for here. Higher end machines have a heater that also may engage if the incoming hot water isn't hot enough (i.e. multiple points of use in the house at the same time), as a dishwasher normally does. As DJ-gabrielle correctly commented, our heaters are normally (not counting Miele) 110V and take longer to heat water. But usually they are either taking 60C/140F hot water line water and boosting it to 80C or so, or else they are heating water just a bit for a lower temp cycle when others in the house are using hot water, to keep Auto Temp Control happy. They are not heating water from cold water, however.

There may be high end US machines that can do this, but I don't see why it would be so hard to have a machine do a pre-wash in cold water, spin it out, then restart automatically for the main wash, using both hot and cold fill depending on temperature selected. My Frigidaire 2140 can do a Soak, but then the cycle ends and you have to refill with soap and start a Wash cycle----not really a bother unless one has to leave to do errands. As long as I am home, the machine sounds a beep alarm when Soak is over. I understand that European cold fill machines essentially do a cold prewash as they take the water from cold to warm/hot, but using electricity here is far more costly than gas (all of which is US or Canadian origin). It can't be that hard to build a machine with two soap dispensers which can do a prewash or soak and then a main wash without having to restart the machine.

Post# 627475 , Reply# 13   9/25/2012 at 11:00 (4,223 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

@gorenje: the main experience I have had with life in Europe (as opposed to visiting as a tourist) was the summer I spent in Holland as an exchange student. The family that hosted me was somewhat above middle class (not wealthy but comfortable). Their house was built early 1960s. Cold water plumbing only. The house had two full bathrooms, a kitchen, and a garage laundry area (apparently it did not become so cold in winter that the pipes froze, which sort of amazed me since the garage was not heated; it had a door to the kitchen as many USA home have). At each point of use, there was a wall mounted tankless gas heater.

Fast forward to 2008. I visited a Dutch friend who lives in a newly constructed row house. She has a hot water tank heater in the attic. I don't know if there are solar panels boosting the heater or if it is gas-only, but her house is plumbed for hot and cold water lines. I don't know what type of washer she uses, but of course if she already owned a cold water fill machine, she could connect to cold water only. However, knowing that the cost of natural gas in Holland is relatively low (because Holland is self sufficient in natural gas), it would not surprise me if dual-fill machines are appearing in Holland as more homes are built with dual water lines.

Post# 627508 , Reply# 14   9/25/2012 at 14:10 (4,223 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

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@PassatDoc - "It can't be that hard to build a machine with two soap dispensers ..."

Indeed it is not hard, and as you already know all European machines are made this way. Maybe American domestic front loaders don't procede automaticaly from prewash to main wash because you are not used to do a prewash and this is just a rare option. (in fact doing a prewash is becoming rare also here) Or maybe it is a separate cycle so you can use it in combination with whatever main cycle.

Here in Slovenia electricity is quite cheap and we use it also to cook (inductions or high lights) but if you already have an alternative cheaper option to heat the water (solar, heat pump ...) than may have sense to use it also for the washing machine and the dishwasher.

Post# 627619 , Reply# 15   9/26/2012 at 03:31 (4,223 days old) by fido ()        

I never cease to be amazed by how cheap things are in USA. It is such a big country that gas and everything else must travel huge distances to get to the consumer. Many old folk in Europe face the dilemma that they can either keep warm by putting the gas heating on or have a hot meal, they can't afford both! In Scotland my gas bills came to about £1000 a year on my tiny cottage and that was just for hot water and heating the place to 20C.

Post# 627669 , Reply# 16   9/26/2012 at 11:15 (4,222 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

Gasoline is not so cheap here, though by European standards it is lower priced---the difference mainly being higher taxes on gasoline in Europe. I don't remember the statistics but the USA produces well below 50% of the gasoline being used, it could be as low as 25%. On the other hand, between US and Canadian production, North America is self-sufficient in natural gas (i.e. it does not come from OPEC sources). I should add that the gas usage portion of the natural gas bill reflects the current commodity price for natural gas (i.e. what it costs the gas utility to buy it on the open market), and it does vary, with prices rising in winter due to heating needs. So using say 8 therms in August may cost less than using 8 therms in January. Most of the utilities here, for both gas and electricity, use a tiered system. You are given an allowance for the size of the dwelling (and sometimes the number of persons living in it). If you exceed the baseline allotment, you are moved to the next tier (like a marginal tax) and the rate per therm or KWhour increases.

 

Electricity costs in USA vary greatly. Some states have government-owned utilities that don't earn a profit, while other areas have investor-owned utilities that have to pay dividends to shareholders. Some of the government-owned utilities operate dams and hydroelectric facilities that were funded by the federal government, and so the utility does not need to recoup the costs from the customers---whereas a private utility must recoup costs for new generation sources from its customers.

 

Most of the rivers that could be dammed have been dammed, nuclear plants have their obvious dangers and limitations, coal is dirty for the air, burning natural gas increases CO2 emissions, and so on. My electric bill averages $0.14/KWHour, when you add in all the taxes and fees and fixed costs. Part of the bill pays for the fixed cost of operating the utility system, and part of the bill is for actual usage (i.e. there is still a $15 charge monthly even if you use no electricity at all, and the remainder of the bill varies based on your usage). Officially they charge $0.10 per KWHour but when you divide the total bill by KWHours used, you get $0.14.

 

In some states and US areas, electricity can be as low as $0.06 to $0.08 per KWHour. In California, where electricity costs are among the highest in the USA, it is much cheaper to use natural gas for water heating, clothes drying, and cooking. At one time in the past, I received the electric bill (back when I was not yet on paperless billing) with an enclosed notice. The notice advised that if you were shopping for a new clothes dryer, you should select a gas model because the energy cost to dry clothes with gas (plus electricity to spin the drum) was 25% of the cost to dry with electricity only.

 

My electric bill typically runs $40-42 at this time of year, with about $15-16 being fixed costs and the rest being the cost of the actual usage.
Post# 627670 , Reply# 17   9/26/2012 at 11:22 (4,222 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
ps

In the winter, of course heating costs go up. Electric bill rises because I have a gas furnace that uses a fan to circulate the warmed air via forced air ducts. In December and January, a typical electric bill is $45 and typical gas bill about $30. So about $75 per month to keep a 120 square meter home heated to about 16C. The home is single story which helps (otherwise the downstairs becomes very cold as hot air rises.
Post# 627810 , Reply# 18   9/26/2012 at 21:56 (4,222 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
"to keep a 120 square meter home heated to about 16C"

 16C is not a comfortable inside temperature in winter, unless someone has a hormonal imbalance that alters heat/cold perception. It means that one would still have to wear layers of clothes to be warm inside. Do you use auxilliary heating, like a woodfire stove, to raise the temperature in your house?

In my house, which has three storeys and has approx. 50 squares of living space, the ambient temperature in winter is around 23/24C (75 to 77 Fahrenheit) degrees. I use both gas, wood and electricity and for the three coldest months my overall heating cost would be close to $1000.00 for fuel sources combined.

My neighbours, whose house is two thirds the size of mine, spend over $2000 for the same three months period, using a heat pump central aircon system. Their indoor temperature is set at 23C.



Post# 627842 , Reply# 19   9/27/2012 at 02:08 (4,222 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
We heat to 19c

 ronhic's profile picture
...but unfortunately, have no way of closing off our upstairs (though shut rooms) and have a pitched 15' ceiling height in 2/3 of our downstairs...meaning we heat about 75% more air than we need.

We also only heat from 5.30-7.30 am and from 5.00-10.30pm during the week.

Our gas bill alone for the 3 months over winter, noting outside temperatures of around -6c to +4c over night was in excess of $1200....then you can add in the electricity on top of about $600...

...so $1800 to heat the living part of the house + the study to 19c - part of the day. Oh, and the way the USD is at the moment, that's nearly USD$1900.

Rupunzel, how big is your house? 50 squares is equivalent to about 410 sqm - that's ENORMOUS.

Post# 627852 , Reply# 20   9/27/2012 at 04:46 (4,221 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Personally One Often Wonders If The Ideal

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For fast laundry days would be a decent sized front loader *and* one of those vintage water heaters that gave 180F out of the taps. Long as it was located near enough to the washer there wouldn't be that much loss of water temp due to travel.

One could run a "whites" or such cycle as commercial laundries do here; warm pre-wash (with detergent) followed by a hot (and I do mean hot) wash, then several rinses.



Post# 627857 , Reply# 21   9/27/2012 at 05:05 (4,221 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

15-16 C is plenty warm underneath a thick comforter at night. Sometimes wear a sweater during the evenings. Flannel pajamas during the winter. Thermostat is on a timer. The house heats to 16 C from 6-8:30 in the morning, and 18:OO-23:00 in the evening. A "high" winter gas bill would be $30-35/month plus an electric bill of $40/month. Electricity use goes up in winter since the circulating fan for the forced air duct system runs on electricity. Gas is very inexpensive here, I suspect because North America is self-sufficient in natural gas (USA produces a lot, and Canada makes up any shortfall, and there are delivery pipelines to bring Canadian gas across the border).

The climate here is subtropical, but there are definite seasons. Colder than Sydney, about as cold as Melb (but we are neither Mexicans nor Crow Eaters...) but drier climate (drier like Perth but a bit colder). Where I live, typical overnight low temperatures would be 40F/5C, however it can and sometimes does drop to 32F/0C and it's been as cold as 24F/-5C. Typically, the "heating season" begins in late November or early December through the end of March. December and January typically have the highest gas bills, then gas use begins to taper off in February. Bear in mind that the gas bill also includes gas for water heating and cooking on a gas range/oven, plus gas clothes drying. Most likely the taxes on natural gas are modest, but the commodity cost is also low. According to my bill, the commodity cost per therm is about 40-60 cents.

Post# 627858 , Reply# 22   9/27/2012 at 05:29 (4,221 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

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My appartment has 50 square meters. My gas bill for heating and hot water reaches 90 EUR in january and february when the lowest temperature can be -15°C. I heat my appartment to 20 or 19°C.

Gas bills for heating & hot water:

January - 92 EUR
February - 89 EUR
March - 31 EUR
April - 16 EUR
May - 8 EUR
June - 5 EUR
July - 4 EUR
August - 3 EUR
September- 18 EUR
October - 25 EUR
November - 38 EUR
December - 47 EUR

My electricity bill is 17 or 18 EUR every month. (cooking hob, oven, dishwasher, fridge, vintage washer, dryer, and everything else ... except air conditioner.)

Post# 627860 , Reply# 23   9/27/2012 at 06:12 (4,221 days old) by fido ()        

I don't have gas but it sounds like it must be a lot cheaper in Slovenia than here in Hungary, as everyone here complains about the price. I could have gas, as we have it in the street but people say it has poor calorific value and sometimes there are gas cuts. Hungarian gas comes from Ukraine. My electricity is about 20 Euros a month which is for hot water, fridge freezer, washing machine, lights etc but not much cooking as I have bottled gas for my summer stove and logs for my winter one. I also don't have a tumble dryer or a dishwasher.

Post# 627866 , Reply# 24   9/27/2012 at 07:15 (4,221 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)        

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@ fido - heating with Diesel oil is more expensive than gas, also here in Slovenia. But the most expensive is for those living in older blocks of flats that are conected to the municipal heating plant because in this case you have less autonomy than if you have your own heating system.

I pay cca. 380 EUR a year for heating and hot water, which is definitely not bad.
But I am single and my appartment have 50 square meters. Obviously I would pay more in a bigger appartment or house or in a bigger household.

Post# 627872 , Reply# 25   9/27/2012 at 08:31 (4,221 days old) by fido ()        

In an apartment you often get heat from your neighbours apartments, especially from below. I've known people who never have their own heating on for that reason. My house was very cold last winter but I've since replaced any single glazed windows with double glazed so I'm hoping it will have improved matters.

Post# 627907 , Reply# 26   9/27/2012 at 13:43 (4,221 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Gosh that's cheap! :)
Thus year I paid 2600€ for methane plus 200€ of fixed costs for heating! Plus 1200€ for hot water and 120€ for cooking gas! That summed up goes to 4120€ (5300USD/5100AUD).
And this for a well insulated flat of 130 square metres and hot water and cooking for 4! (Winter average is -5°C and we keep 22°C during all the heating seaon)

Post# 631335 , Reply# 27   10/13/2012 at 16:08 (4,205 days old) by spinspeed (Far North New South Wales Australia (originally London UK))        

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I have to say cold fill is the best. I just got 10kg LG truesteam washer and was really surprised to see it was hot and cold fill. However, it doesn't seem to take any hot water in. I suspect it will only do that when a really hot wash ie 60c or above is selected. It uses such a small amount of water for the wash that by the time the water level is reached water from the hot tank mounted on the roof would still not have reached the laundry room in the basement.

I am sure that blood sets in warm water and I was always told to wash blood stains in cold water first. Well that's what my mum always said.



Post# 631446 , Reply# 28   10/14/2012 at 04:20 (4,205 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
Why do you have four different bills, dj-gabriele?

 Just curious, but how do you pay your utilities? I mean: methane + fixed costs + hot water (shouldn't this be included in the methane bills?) + etc. How does that work?

Post# 631451 , Reply# 29   10/14/2012 at 05:30 (4,204 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Different bills:

 I get hot water via the local water-duct so I pay for how much cubic I use, we have two meters, one for hot and one for cold water.
Heating is done via a central methane furnace for all the 100 flats in my condominium and we pay in proportion of our flat sizes (heating is homogeneous and continuous so there is no per-use billing)
Gas is used for cooking and I have a personal meter.
Fixed costs are taxes for annual maintenance of the plant and compulsory checks.
Maintenance is billed along central heating costs.

My parents have a more conventional billing, having a simple combi-boiler. They get all their usage for hot water and heating and cooking gas on a single methane bill!

Does that explain it? :)

Post# 631483 , Reply# 30   10/14/2012 at 09:25 (4,204 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
Different bills explained

 Yes, it does explain.

Many thanks, dj-gabriele


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