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Thread Number: 42941
Is There a FL Washer Available in the U. S. That Heats Wash Water to 206 F? |
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Post# 631666 10/14/2012 at 22:45 (4,204 days old) by gredmondson  (San Francisco, California 94117 USA) |
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My son, who has been so impressed with the stain removing ability of the Miele washer I have that heats the water to 206 F in the "Sanitize" cycle, wants me to fine him the same washer. When I went online to check out the temperature for current Miele washers, the highest temperature I see is 158 F. Is there a washer available in the U. S. that heats water to a higher temperature?
George | ||
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Post# 631672 , Reply# 1 10/14/2012 at 22:57 (4,204 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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IIRC Some Models of Asko Still Do "Boil Washes" | ||
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Post# 631708 , Reply# 3 10/15/2012 at 01:14 (4,204 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI) |
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Well some of us like hot washes for some items. No way would I give up my FL with a built in heater. Stuff comes out SOOO much cleaner with less chemicals using it. | ||
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Post# 631713 , Reply# 4 10/15/2012 at 01:43 (4,204 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Historically boiling was part of the wash day when laundry was done mainly by hand. It was used mainly on whites and colourfast items and followed soaking, soaping, and rinsing.
Boiling served several purposes: It opened textile fibers to allow any trapped dirt, soil and more importantly soap from the previous soaking and soaping to be released from textiles. Subsequent rinses in hot water carried the muck away. Boiling destroyed vermin (lice, fleas, bedbugs, etc..) that were all to common then. It helped whiten and keep whites bright, especially after oxygen bleach (sodium perborate) was discovered and eventually made it's way into the first laundry "detergent" Persil. Boiling also provided a measure of disenfection in times before modern antibiotics when simple infections could and did kill, especially infants and children. And so and so forth. On this side of the pond routine boiling of laundry started to wane as mechanical washing machines became common, and more homes had plummed hot water. Long as one had access to hot water that was >140F to about 160F that was fine to activate the soap which was used for cleaning and subsequent hot rinses would carry away the loosened muck. If we remember the five main basics of good laundering practice (water amount, time, water temperature, mechanical action, and chemical action), we know the increase in one affects a decrease in others and vice versa. Boiling had the affect of lossening soils without all that beating, scrubbing and other harsh hand washing techniques. However with the advent washing machines to provide mechanical action (usually far more gentle and what was done by hand),hot water temperture could decrease. American housewives, commercial laundries and so forth also took to and still vastly prefer chlorine bleach for stain removal/fabric whitening. LCB does not require "boiling" wash temps and does it's work quite well in normal household hot water (120F to 140F), so again boiling just wasn't necesssary. OTHO in much of the UK and Europe boiling held sway and as early washing machines began to be introduced housewives and other consumers made it cleart they wouldn't choose a washer that couldn't do a boil wash. Early Miele and other washing machines simply had a fire box under the wash tub. Later after electric power became widespread and technology advanced washing machines were built with internal electric heaters. Part of Europe's love of boil washes has to do with Persil, the first oxygen based laundry "detergent", and the aversion on the other side of the pond to chlorine bleach for laundry use. Sodium perborate needs water temps at or >140F to really become active. However starting the wash at those temps not only shocks textiles but sets some stains and soils. Hence the famous "profile" wash. Cycle starts with cold water (to prevent setting of stains), moves on to warm (better soil removal and once enzymes were introduced allowed them to work), then finally hot to boiling (to activate the oxygen bleaching agents for whitening, stain removal, etc..). | ||
| Post# 631717 , Reply# 6 10/15/2012 at 01:53 (4,204 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
[rolleyes] | ||
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Post# 631755 , Reply# 9 10/15/2012 at 05:39 (4,204 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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There also seems to be a cultural difference in terms of clothes and laundry on this side of the pond.
To me clothing means anything you wear that others can see like shirts and pants. Clothes get a much cooler treatment, most people seem to prefer warm water. I associate laundry with things like sheets, towels, underwear, tablecloths and so on. Anything white or colorfast that might be shared between family members and white underwear qualyfies for a boil wash. In other words there is fashion and household linen. Unfortunately current Mieles on the US market only run on 120 Volts, thus cannot provide a super hot wash. Good luck with finding a good substitute ! | ||
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Post# 631757 , Reply# 10 10/15/2012 at 05:44 (4,204 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA) |
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Well, I'll try, I might have to duck and run though...
Boiling clothes: My mother tells me of when she grew up during the depression, her mother had 12 kids and lived on a farm in Kansas and she would fire up the wood stove and put on a big pot and boil clothes like jeans and shirts and T shirts along with any underwear. It was the only way to get Kansas soil and cow manure out and to remove the odors with the soaps they used at the time. It had to dangerous around the kids, and they were not allowed in the kitchen. Even Levis were boiled. As for the surgeons and their handwashing, they try to use 120 degree water but the disinfectants they use are quite strong and they do wear latex gloves. This might be considered bacterocidal, but not sterilized but the gloves are sterile and that seems to be enough. The scrubs they wear, after being washed, are also put through an autoclave cycle that sterilizes the fabric. I will have to look up to see what JCAHO says about this, I am sure they have a procedure. When handwashing, the time also matters: Health care and food service workers are supposed to wash their hands in the time it takes to sing "happy birthday". Surgeons scrub for longer and up all of their forearms too. The USDA considers an internal temperature of 140 degrees Fahrenheit safe for most cooked foods and recommends 160 degrees for meats like pork. It the temperature inside that matters, which is why you see restaurant managers with those little thermometers in their shirt pockets, they are supposed to check the cooked (and chilled) foods. | ||
| Post# 631790 , Reply# 11 10/15/2012 at 09:33 (4,204 days old) by MikeKlondon (London) | ||
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Bed-Bugs / Lice Hi all I understand Bed-bugs are now once again are a big problem, could this have something to do with lower and lower temps???????????????????. I love me Miele and its 60 / 75 / 95 c | ||
| Post# 631857 , Reply# 13 10/15/2012 at 14:34 (4,203 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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forgot about the 501s Wow I forgot about 501's, that's all I would ever wear. Washed them hot, put them on wet and walked around until they were dried.
I guess they still make them so maybe I will give them a try again as long as I can find them in my waist size which sadly is about 29 inches. Hard to find men's pants in this size anymore. | ||
| Post# 631884 , Reply# 14 10/15/2012 at 17:36 (4,203 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
 All I can say is that I had to use the boilwash while using FL's with the cycle for whites, and this is what most owner of Front loaders (the majority) here in italy do when heavy soiled whites or colorfats occurs, this is to get laundry something nearer being clean and spotless, otherwise they would not... Chlorine bleach was widely used in Europe till recent years when specifically formulated whitening oxy additives and stain additives have been brought over and replaced some of the bleach use, a proof showing it are the machines that in recent years almost lost the use to have a bleach dispenser while in the past indeed was very common, usually in european front loaders the automatic bleaching cycle was made during the second or third rinse in cold water before final rinse... In case of very heavy soiled items some machines manufacturers suggested to have a prewash with bleach only as bleaching cycle prior to wash in warm water, many machines infact do prewash with warm water....40°c- This technique got lost time after time in USA after the advent of washing machines that provied the results even without boiling procedure........ From many users of european FL's machines in europe is believed that to get a high soiled white load "clean" a boilwash is the only thing that would be capable to do the job.....and yes they're right. Of course hotter water provides cleanest laundry. In all machines an hot wash for whites it is still the "key" for a good spotless result. Agitator machines on average require water less hot, unfortunately in the modern days some people looks like claim to have very heavy soiled whites clean with water heater and water coming setted to 104 F°, hard almost impossible task, a proper temperature for an avrage top loader white wash would be around 130 F° -150F , I have a 130F° 140 F° water income at my house and our white laundry always been spotless and sparkling white, you will never need a boilwash with an average agitator washer, then there're washers and washers of course...... that is why in USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, India and certain other countries using agitator machines boilwash is just considered not necessary, for some europeans always used to Front loaders indeed a boilwash for whites is a custom, they have to have the use of boilwashes for these reasons and they look at it as a essential thing that actually is for the machine type they use......that is also a reason why many Europeans does not look good at agitator american machines only because they believe laundry would not get clean if it does not do a boilwash .....how many times this matter ran across the website...countless times...... Also, others facts that find their reson in common used habits, beliefs and peculiarities of historical periods etc made of the self heating and boilwash common in Europe and certain countries, as for ex the fact of UK machines having double fill while german ones not....
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Post# 631890 , Reply# 15 10/15/2012 at 18:00 (4,203 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Bed-Bugs / Lice
Depending upon who you believe the increase in bed bug infestation has to do with increased ease and access of world travel, and or increased "thrifting", "dumpster diving" or otherwise bringing things home that aren't new and or found on the streets.
One of the first places to report bed bugs here in NYC were hotels. This lead "experts" to think that the critters where coming in and being spread via travellers and their luggage/clothing. Next we started seeing them in persons homes/apartments and when questioned many reported having "picked up" things off the street or at resale shops such as furniture, mattresses, bedding etc.. (those of a certain age remember our mothers screaming at us never to do such things because "you don't know where it's been or what you'll catch), but apparently that has gone out of the window out of necessity or couldn't care less. Soon we started seeing/hearing of bed bugs in theaters, coffee shops, clothing stores, and pretty much everywhere else persons went. | ||
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Post# 631894 , Reply# 16 10/15/2012 at 18:14 (4,203 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@Iowegian
One did not say temperature was the only thing which mattered, but repeated the common accepted theory of good laundry practice that if one increases that parameter the others can be lowered.
Truth to tell temperature plays just one part in "santitising" laundry. Chemical and mechanical action play important roles however when speaking of temps say >140F the main thing going on is removal of *germs* from textiles and keeping them suspended in wash water. Thus they are drained away, perhaps most alive and well, but never the less they aren't on one's laundry which is what most care about. Temperature is also not a very accurate way for sanitising laundry alone because various germs, moulds, bacteria, etc are killed at different temps held at different time lengths. The easiest E Coli (usually found in fecal matter) is killed at temps of about 160F held for ten minutes IIRC. However there are various yeasts and other germs that require temps at 180F or above to be killed. This topic comes up often enough both here and in the world at large and for those either connected with healthcare and or have any experience/knowledge of the matter it really is moot. Aside from some serious infectious diseases such as smallpox no major outbreak of disease as ever been attributed to properly handled soiled then clean laundry. There are probably more pathogens growing on many computer keyboards, mouses, toilet seats, bathroom surfaces (including shower curtains, sinks, faucet handles and door knobs), yet so many Americans worry about their laundry being "disinfected". This post was last edited 10/15/2012 at 22:53 | ||
| Post# 631961 , Reply# 17 10/15/2012 at 22:10 (4,203 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas) | ||
Bed bugs What I have read the main reason for the resurgence of bed bugs is the removal of effective insecticides from the market. There was even a recent petition to allow DDT for limited usage. EPA denied the request. Other less effective insecticides are at risk of immiunity by the critters, and hence--if you thrift, boil, steam or freeze the hell out of it.
I refuse to purchase used furniture of any kind at a thrift, but there has recently been a case where New retailers were infested with what they blame on imported goods. Any clothing or bedding item I purchase new or used is immediately washed on the hottest wash the fabric can stand and dried on the highest temp or hung outdoors in the sun.
Also the germophobe/vacuumaholic that I am vacuum at least once a day, sometimes more. Beds get vacuumed at least weekly (have you ever seen dust mites) YUCK!!!
And thanks Laundress, as I wipe my keyboard with Lysol wipes. Cell phones--nasty, nasty things, lots of germs.
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Post# 631985 , Reply# 18 10/16/2012 at 00:45 (4,203 days old) by gredmondson (San Francisco, California 94117 USA) |
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I found these older Miele models in Burlingame . . .
W1966, W4842, W1215
I think they all are not current stock, and that at least one of them boosts the water to 190 F. The warehouse salesman of Atherton Appliance told me that these were floor models, or mis-ordered, or returned models. He also said that it was possible to get a machine that listed for $2000.00 for $500.00. Is this too good to be true? I do know that my machine, W1203, will take out underarm discolorations from white T shirts, and that white dress shirts that had turned gray from going to a commercial laundry, came out sparkling white after a run through the "Sanitize" cycle with a prewash and planty of Persil and OxyClean. | ||
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Post# 631988 , Reply# 19 10/16/2012 at 00:56 (4,203 days old) by gredmondson (San Francisco, California 94117 USA) |
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This post has been removed by the member who posted it. | ||
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Post# 631991 , Reply# 20 10/16/2012 at 01:07 (4,203 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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IIRC the W1966
Would be one of the last in the 19## series (that is old school Miele where one can chose water temps independent of cycles for the most part). Top wash temperature is 190F .
The W1215 wasn't a long model series IIRC. Again IIRC because water temps were set by cycles many didn't warm up to them. You see quite allot of 12XX units on sale at various online sites like CL or eBay. Finally the W4842 is the newest uber-large capacity Miele that was offered for about a year or so but was discontinued earlier this year. The outer drum is a type of fiberglass and the washer does not do boil washes. IIRC top temp is somewhere around 140F. Long as you are purchasing new units from a Miele dealer they will come with a warranty and service/support shouldn't be a problem. If you go for the W1966 I'd contact Miele tech support to see if they still have a decent selection of parts in stock. Miele promises to keep parts in order for twenty years after a model is discontinued but Miele USA seems to stop ordering parts from Germany after a certain point for discontinued appliances. Keep in mind the W1966 and W1215 are strictly 220v-240v machines only, while the W4842 is 120v. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 631992 , Reply# 21 10/16/2012 at 01:08 (4,203 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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W1966 Operating Instructions | ||
| Post# 631993 , Reply# 22 10/16/2012 at 01:14 (4,203 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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Post# 632028 , Reply# 23 10/16/2012 at 05:16 (4,203 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Post# 632055 , Reply# 24 10/16/2012 at 07:22 (4,203 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Bed Bugs (and one presumes Lice) & Laundry | ||
| Post# 632079 , Reply# 25 10/16/2012 at 09:46 (4,203 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
W1612 heats to 95C on 120V | ||
| Post# 632124 , Reply# 26 10/16/2012 at 15:10 (4,202 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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Interesting that W1612 is 5.5 kg, uses 120V and will heat to 95C.
I think the 5.5 kg models sold in the USA using 120V are limited to 157F as their top temps. | ||
| Post# 632144 , Reply# 27 10/16/2012 at 16:48 (4,202 days old) by bosch2460 (Harrisonburg, VA) | ||
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Post# 632166 , Reply# 28 10/16/2012 at 18:26 (4,202 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Importing and Or Cross Border Miele
Miele USA will not honour warranties of products sold in Miele Canada or Mexico and vice versa. Indeed they will not do so for any Miele appliance not sold in it's native area. Miele USA (and vice versa) will not sell nor ship parts or accessories across borders either. So you cannot for instance order Persil from Miele Canada and have it shipped to the USA.
Over the years have inquired about various Miele appliances either offered for sale in Canada but not USA or on these shores but came from Germany during a house move. Miele tech support gave the information above and also stated while in some cases they will perform service on such appliances, they work is not covered by any warranty either. Can sort of see their point. Depending upon exchange rates Americans living near Canada or Mexico could save a decent sum by going across the border and hauling back appliances. | ||
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Post# 632168 , Reply# 29 10/16/2012 at 18:31 (4,202 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Speaking of Bosch | ||
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Post# 632227 , Reply# 33 10/17/2012 at 00:47 (4,202 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Gas Heated Washing Machine
For domestic use would probably be a very hard sell.
First depending upon local code gas appliances must be installed by a licensed plumber (that is how NYC does things), which would drive up cost. Suppose one could simply ignore this and DIY or find someone cheaper that knows how to do the thing, but if something went wrong not sure how one's homeowner insurance and others would take things. Then am thinking of the various safety design issues to prevent injury and or liability issues, again costly. Commercial laundries long have had access to gas heated ironers and of course dryers. If one had the space, zoning and so forth would go for one of those smaller gas heated flatwork ironers in a NYC minute. Natural gas being way cheaper than electric around here it would probably make my "ironing" bill a bit less. *LOL* Back in the day Ironrite (also badged as Maytag) had gas heated ironers for home use. From what one has been able to find out only a limited number of units were produced and even those were for mainly sale by gas companies to their customers. Guess there was lots of competition between gas and electric back then. | ||
| Post# 632237 , Reply# 34 10/17/2012 at 02:02 (4,202 days old) by MikeKlondon (London) | ||
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Bed Bugs Think I'll keep washing at high temp when possible, and a good run though the roller iron. | ||
| Post# 632249 , Reply# 35 10/17/2012 at 04:03 (4,202 days old) by MikeKlondon (London) | ||
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Bosch2460 HI Your so right, I would love to have the space for a TL but as a daily driver? the wash performance on all the TL's I have looked at in the UK are rated at G where the Miele FL is rated at A+ for wash A+ for rinse and A+ for spin. | ||
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Post# 632255 , Reply# 36 10/17/2012 at 05:31 (4,202 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Those compact Bosch washers sold in the US only go up to 161°F in the Sanitary cycle. I wouldn`t call that a boil wash.
On the other hand I don`t believe that my Miele really heats up to 203°F when I choose the 95°C. 190°F is a much more realistic temperature in the "boil" cycle of a modern Euro-FL no matter what the dial says. Otherwise there would be way to much steam and even possible damage to the detergent drawer. | ||
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Post# 632281 , Reply# 38 10/17/2012 at 07:42 (4,202 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Leave Us Not Be Hasty | ||
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Post# 632289 , Reply# 39 10/17/2012 at 08:23 (4,202 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Max temp on Miele
I have also read several times that the European Miele washers stop at 85C (185F) when set to boil wash. I *think* that has to do something with water boiling at different altitudes - but could be completely wrong. Maybe it's just energy-saving.
Besides Bosch, there's also ASKO. They offer a 205F temp, too. | ||
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Post# 632846 , Reply# 40 10/19/2012 at 13:31 (4,200 days old) by gredmondson (San Francisco, California 94117 USA) |
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Miele Washer model W1215
I just found a Miele Washer model W1215 (stainless steel cabinet) that is available in Burlingame, close to San Francisco, at the Atherton Appliance Warehouse. It has the 95 degree Centigrade Sanitize heated wash cycle. In fact, it looks a lot like the W1203 that I have in my house. It is new, still in the box, but it is about three years old, or so the salesman said. They are asking $600.00 plus $150 for delivery and set up (needs to have a European 240 volt plug)). I do not thnk I can find a better deal.
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Post# 638303 , Reply# 41 11/11/2012 at 17:58 (4,176 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Max temp on Miele
Haven't run a 200F wash for ages in my Miele 1070 so have no idea if that is the actual temp reached. The only way to find out would be to drain water out of the machine after it reached the temp but before the "cool down" rinse starts. Door won't open if water is above a certain level and one dare not use the manual release! *LOL*
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Post# 638324 , Reply# 42 11/11/2012 at 18:53 (4,176 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Surgeon's hands...
If you've ever watched a surgeon wash his hands, it a long and extremely thorough procedure. They have special soaps and brushes and they get their hands squeaky clean. On top of that, they don sterile gloves so even if there are bacteria left on their hands (likely, at least some) the gloves will block them. In the operating room they keep a sterile field and if there is any breach of the field they go through all sorts of routines to re-establish it.
That said, for most healthy people 160F is hot enough, coupled with modern detergents, to get clothes clean, white, and "sanitary". Bearing in mind that the only really sanitary condition is achieved by subjecting the fabric to moist heat in a pressure cooker (autoclave). Even then, there are some organisms (like raccoon worm eggs) that can survive even that (they need to be flamed to kill them), and quasi-organisms like prion proteins (which can cause mad cow disease) that also require flame treatment for complete inactivation. There is also a growing body of medical thought that too-clean conditions when a child is raised has resulted in an increase in problems like allergies. There's also a school of thought that the lack of intestinal parasites in the modern western world has led to other problems like irritable bowel syndrome and Crohn's disease. I have a Miele that can do boil washes. I don't use it at that temp very much if at all, because it's extremely hard on fabrics. I would call it the diaper setting. | ||
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Post# 638332 , Reply# 43 11/11/2012 at 18:59 (4,176 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Surgical Pre-Op Scrub
Is ten minutes at least and there is no way to "sterlise" human skin. What the prep does is reduce the number of *germs* to a level that is about as minimal as one is going to get.
Again the word to remember is biofilm. Germs are often remarkably sticky things and thus to remove them you've got to disloge whatever layer/surface they are clinging to; happily the human skin has many external layers and grows more to replace what is shed so there is normally no problems. | ||
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