Thread Number: 42977
SQ FL vs Miele 3033
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Post# 632359   10/17/2012 at 15:11 (4,179 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

I have been nursing along a F&P top loader for some time, but at this juncture the machine is at the point where the cost of parts exceeds my interest in playing with it. Based upon my reading here and other places, I have narrowed my focus to the SQ Imperial washer and a Miele 3033. With respect to the SQ my primary concern is the lack of an integrated heater, but in theory I could employ an inline on demand water heater as a solution. Additionally I appreciate the ability to simply increase water usage with a simple tweak. Note that in discussion with an engineer at SQ I was told that over the life of the machine they have cut the water use in half with no other changes (e.g. there is no issue with putting the machine back to where it was designed with respect to water usage).

On the other hand I must admit as an engineer I really can appreciate the design of the Miele machines and have had my eye on owning one for many years. That said while Miele's reputation is a low rate of failures, I'm rather scared of the cost for parts, etc which drives me back toward owning the SQ.

Yesterday I found a thread where someone benched their Imperial set for Miele which makes me think I should simply put aside my fear of Miele cost of ownership and just get the Miele.

Thoughts?







Post# 632383 , Reply# 1   10/17/2012 at 18:08 (4,179 days old) by bobo ()        

I'm looking for a new washer as well (my current one ain't dead yet, so I still have time to look around), and have narrowed down my choices to SQ and Miele. Although I've been assured many times on this forum that the drum in the Miele is more than adequate for a family of three, I still think the capacity is a little small. The SQ has a bigger drum, but compared to the Miele, it's not as refined in the materials used, and the available settings are limited. However, if you like simplicity, I think the SQ is easier to operate (because I'm a technophobe). One more thing - the switches on the SQ are electronic, not mechanical like on traditional toploaders. Hope this helps.

Post# 632401 , Reply# 2   10/17/2012 at 19:27 (4,179 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

In another thread a table was provided which maps basket capacity in volume to weight. A portion of the table is reproduced below that suggests the difference between the two machines is 1.2 lbs of dry laundry. This doesn't seem to be enough to make a difference in a practical sense.

Notable is if we assume this table is correct it suggests that manufactures are generous with respect to their stated capacity in weight. I discussed this with a coworker from the UK and he thought SQ's cited capacity of 2.8 ft3 equals 18 lbs was too high from his experience.

Container volume Test load
cu. ft. liter lb kg
2.50-2.60 70.8-73.6 10.50 4.76
2.80-2.90 79.3-82.1 11.70 5.31



CLICK HERE TO GO TO vsc's LINK


Post# 632403 , Reply# 3   10/17/2012 at 19:47 (4,179 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Miele

launderess's profile picture
First thing is to make sure there is local Miele service in your area. If there isn't you could be waiting weeks for a service call as Miele must schedule someone from the nearest area which could be the next city or even state.

Both SQ and Miele have excellent build quality but offer differences that mainly affect how one does the wash.

SQ washers are basically the same as their on premises/laundromat machines with a few more bells and whistles. Cycle wise things are what they are with little room for customer modifications. In short a washing machine built to process laundry quickly day in and day out for years.

Miele washers allow various consumer (and tech if one knows how to get into the system) variable such as increasing water levels, number of rinses, and so forth. The heater on Miele units is more engaged than on SQ IIRC.

Parts:

If you are handy working on all but the most difficult job on a SQ *should* in theory be easy as parts are local to the USA. MieleUSA OTHO is the only supplier of parts for those machines so even if you do the repair yourself you still are on the hook for paying whatever they charge for parts. If you can match the American unit to a EU counterpart it *may* be cheaper to source parts abroad (unlike the USA in the UK or Europe one can purchase Miele spares all over the place, not just from the company), but depending upon exchange rates it may not be *that* much cheaper and you still would have to pay postage.

Being as this may quite honestly once the first year is out anything that was going to go wrong should have done so by then, so if you purchase Miele things should be good for ten or so more years. Long as one does not abuse the unit and otherwise takes proper care. However all things made by man can and do break down. There are complaints about Miele units < five years needed expensive repairs and Miele not offering to foot the bill.


Post# 632470 , Reply# 4   10/18/2012 at 00:58 (4,179 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

When I was shopping for a machine, my choice was between the Huebsch Front loader, which is the same as a Speed Queen, or a Miele IntelliQ 100, which is the same as the W4840.

The SQ won hands down over the Miele for a few different reasons:

- Since it was based upon a commercial machine, there were many service depots I could go to, to go get parts or hire a repair technician to take a look at it.
- While the Huebsch had a 3.3 cu.ft drum as opposed to the 4.0 cu.ft drum of the Miele, the SQ drum had larger holes, which means better washing action in my eyes.
- The Huebsch/SQ came with a 3 year parts and labour warranty and a 5 year parts warranty, whereas the Miele only came with a 1 year parts and labour warranty only.
- The Huebsch Washer/Dryer set was nearly $1200 cheaper than the Miele.
- The Huebsch/SQ FL is rated to 25,000 loads, the Miele only rated to 10,000.
- The controls are easy to use, simplistic and have realistic cycles. The Miele has more cycles, but I didn't think I needed them.
- Alliance (Who makes SQ/Huebsch) is based out of Ripon, WI.. so I know I can have parts overnighted to me if I need them quick.
- While I'm Canadian, I'm still supporting North American jobs by buying Alliance.

I'm not sure why Malcolm switched from using his SQ to Miele machines.. Perhaps he liked the better cycle selection and the smaller drum for his personal use.



Post# 632516 , Reply# 5   10/18/2012 at 06:50 (4,178 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Changes

mrb627's profile picture
I am the member who owns both the Speed Queen Imperial set and the Miele. I have had the Miele set in operation since mid-July.

If I had to buy a set all over again, knowing what I know now and having used both machines, I would have to choose the Speed Queen set over the Miele. Its just a hands down better built machine!

Malcolm


Post# 632672 , Reply# 6   10/18/2012 at 19:21 (4,178 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Miele Vote

Malcolm,

I was a bit surprised that your opinion was that the Speed Queen was better built than the Miele. I've seen a few Speed queens (even a newer front loader), and I didn't feel that the build quality was better than Miele. While the Speed Queens are definitely well built, I felt the door hinge, drum boot, and the drum itself felt much cheaper than the W3033. The detergent drawer also felt flimsy in person. Another note I felt made the Speed Queen fall below Miele was there seemed to be more noise from the machine during operation than the Miele.

What parts of the W3035 did you not like, I'm curious?

We all have our own views and opinions, and I respect your opinion of the Speed Queen, but I had to ask what you thought was not very good.

Attached are a couple of pics of the W3033 insides (same as W3035).


Andrew





Post# 632674 , Reply# 7   10/18/2012 at 19:22 (4,178 days old) by vacfanatic ()        




Post# 632675 , Reply# 8   10/18/2012 at 19:23 (4,178 days old) by vacfanatic ()        




Post# 632676 , Reply# 9   10/18/2012 at 19:24 (4,178 days old) by Iowegian ()        

There's no better advice available than from the person that has owned both.

I'd just point out that the Speed Queen Imperial sells for a significant premium over the standard white Speen Queen front (AFN50F) and rear (AFN50R) control models. And they are the same machine inside. So, if you can do without the stainless steel, there's an opportunity to save some money.

Plus the SQ is made in the USA and your purchase dollars stay here rather than heading overseas.



Post# 632677 , Reply# 10   10/18/2012 at 19:24 (4,178 days old) by vacfanatic ()        




Post# 632681 , Reply# 11   10/18/2012 at 19:28 (4,178 days old) by Iowegian ()        

Does anyone know the preferred brand of laundromat equipment in the EU? Or Oz/NZ?

Just curious, because SQ/Alliance seems to be the dominant player in the U.S. and I was wondering who has that role elsewhere.


Post# 632685 , Reply# 12   10/18/2012 at 19:40 (4,178 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
It Varies

launderess's profile picture
Miele, and IIRC Primus amoung others are very big.

Most laundromat washers in Europe are of the same self heating you find in domestic setting, though some will use steam from a central boiler instead of electic power to provide the heat.


Post# 632787 , Reply# 13   10/19/2012 at 03:15 (4,178 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
It really depends

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We've recently done a very long (6,000 miles long!) return holiday by car to Western Australia and back which has required use of the odd caravan park laundry every now and then.

Generally speaking, Maytag and SQ top loaders have been the order of the day...none of which I felt actually cleaned my clothes particularly well.

They were, however, fast.



On another note, for those of you contemplating a holiday in Oz, consider caravan parks as a very viable alternative to motels and hotels....2 bedroom fully self contained cabins (2 beds, bathroom, lounge/diner and full kitchen) were generally the same price as a reasonable motel room....staying with the big chains, cabins were scrupulously clean, private and it gave you options to self cater from BBQ to doing a roast.

...and these were one of the best.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK


Post# 632809 , Reply# 14   10/19/2012 at 08:10 (4,177 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Speed Queen FL Washer, Better Built Than A Miele

combo52's profile picture

Yes absolutely, Andrew all your pictures of your new Miele show all the cheap plastic fasteners and other plastic under the top. A SQ FL washer is much more rugged, also the cabinet is way too small on the Miele washer to allow a safe amount of room for the tub assembly to move without possible damage. Remember the SQs are true laundromat machines designed for a life of up to 25,000 loads, 2 1/2 times longer than Mieles estimated life of 10,000 loads.

 

 

A SQ FL Washer is built more like a tank where the Miele are built more German cars, very good engineering yes, but be prepared to pay for the machine more than once and if you live in the US be sure you have a backup washer for the long periods when you are trying to get it repaired. LOL


Post# 632825 , Reply# 15   10/19/2012 at 10:45 (4,177 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

I had a frank discussion with SQ on the reliability and failure modes of the front loader in question. It was cited in the conversation that seal / bearing assembly failures occur most frequently in commercial applications (e.g. OPL). When I asked what drives the failures it was cited that SQ's belief is unbalanced loads cause earlier failure and it is best to run the machine at capacity with a mixed load such that the machine has the best chance to run balanced. For home use the engineer told me "take your best shot we build it strong". Notable is that I was also told that repair is a simple procedure where the bearing / seal assembly can be swapped quickly and the cost is low. Checking the web the assembly is as low as $115.


Post# 632826 , Reply# 16   10/19/2012 at 10:48 (4,177 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Speed Queen FL Washer, Better Built Than A Miele

combo52's profile picture

Yes absolutely, Andrew all your pictures of your new Miele show all the cheap plastic fasteners and other plastic under the top. A SQ FL washer is much more rugged, also the cabinet is way too small on the Miele washer to allow a safe amount of room for the tub assembly to move without possible damage.

 

 

A SQ FL Washer is built more like a tank where the Miele are built more German cars, very good engineering yes, but be prepared to pay for the machine more than once and if you live in the US be sure you have a backup washer for the long periods when you are trying to get it repaired. LOL


Post# 632883 , Reply# 17   10/19/2012 at 18:03 (4,177 days old) by bobo ()        

The last time I visited the SQ dealer, the salesperson told me that her customers have had electrical problems with their FLs after 5 years. It's mainly due to the electrical switches on the panel, since they're sourced from somewhere else *cough* China/Mexico.

Post# 632897 , Reply# 18   10/19/2012 at 19:12 (4,177 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Switch Problems with SQ FL Washers

combo52's profile picture

 BoBo

 

As a SQ dealer for over 5 years we have yet to have replaced any electrical parts in the control panels of SQ FL washers, yes some of their switches are Chinese and Mexican.

 

Miele also uses quite a few Chinese parts in their washer and other appliances.


Post# 633050 , Reply# 19   10/20/2012 at 14:36 (4,176 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
On order...

I made up my mind and ordered a SQ Imperial washer w/ base. The delivery date is still TBD.

Post# 633110 , Reply# 20   10/20/2012 at 19:02 (4,176 days old) by bobo ()        

Congrats on your purchase! Please keep us posted!

Post# 633143 , Reply# 21   10/20/2012 at 22:44 (4,176 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Miele cabinet

foraloysius's profile picture
John,

I don't know why you find that the Miele cabinet is too small. My 21 year old Miele never ever once had a problem with that. The drum never banged into the sides when doing a spin with an unbalanced load.


Post# 633563 , Reply# 22   10/22/2012 at 21:59 (4,174 days old) by Iowegian ()        

@bobo:

It's unrealistic to expect anything built in the U.S. to be built from 100% U.S. parts.

Look at the 100% Canadian items. Other than poutain, the list is pretty short.

Even a washer built in China probably has parts from Myanmar and Viet Nam.

I build things out of Canadian lumber occasionally, it's not by choice, it's just what is available at the time I need it.


Post# 633597 , Reply# 23   10/23/2012 at 00:22 (4,174 days old) by bobo ()        

@Iowegian

I understand that almost nothing is 100% made in a specific country these days, but I was saying that electronics made in China - especially the whole panel - are probably not as reliable as something made in Korea or Taiwan. Now I hope most of the electronics in the Miele do not come from China!


Post# 633666 , Reply# 24   10/23/2012 at 08:40 (4,173 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
Spain...

A little research yields that Speed Queen's sources its circuit cards from Spain.

To be honest this is really simple stuff and many companies use China for assembly of much more complex products including Apple. I paid my dues overseeing an off shore production effort. It has everything to do with supervision. We had no problems with the low cost assembly house.

That said there are things I completely avoid from China where they have a track record of failure such as motor run capacitors (e.g. in air conditioning units, etc).

My decision to go with SQ over Miele had ultimately focused on the life cycle cost of the machine, lack of freely available parts, etc. I would never judge Miele as poorly engineered. Perhaps I don't need the Porsche of front loaders in my laundry room...


Post# 633765 , Reply# 25   10/23/2012 at 17:22 (4,173 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Miele

mrb627's profile picture
Well, after having used both brands for a while, I would choose the Speed Queen over the Miele if I had to do it over.

However, I do not mean to imply that the Miele machine is a poor performer. That simply isn't true. Simply put, the HYPE over the Miele machines is a bit bloated for what it is. The Miele is not the Holy Grail that I believed it would be. It doesn't perform with the finesse that my Miele dishwasher does. It will BANG the sides of the cabinet when ramping up to spin. It has failed to determine whether or not the load has been distributed properly quite a few times.

Rinsing is adequate, but no better than the Speed Queen, yet the Speed Queen seems to complete rinsing in less than half the time of the Miele.

Now none of these issues/observations is a showstopper. I wont be dragging these machines to the curb. Will I keep these long term. Doubtful. But my normal routine is to cycle through machines every couple of years anyway.

Malcolm


Post# 634069 , Reply# 26   10/24/2012 at 22:02 (4,172 days old) by Iowegian ()        

Not every piece and part can realistically be sourced from the U.S., in the case of Speed Queen, nor can every piece and part be realistically sourced from Germany, in the case of Miele.

Intent is important, IMO.

When you see something in a store that says, "Proudly assembled in the USA!", what does that mean? If it were really and truly "Made in the USA", it would say so.

And I'm not trying to infer that Speed Queen is trying to play games, but I see labeling differentation on lots of products. I guess there is an FTC definition of what "Made in the USA" means, and lots of products don't clear that hurdle.


Post# 634115 , Reply# 27   10/25/2012 at 02:35 (4,172 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

If the device has any sort of electronic parts-they can be from almost anywhere.-even though the machine was "assembled" in the US.

Post# 634311 , Reply# 28   10/25/2012 at 19:58 (4,171 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
A week...

Distribution for SQ finally came back with a date. I should have the Imperial at the end of next week.

Post# 636004 , Reply# 29   11/2/2012 at 19:29 (4,163 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
Got it...

Got the SQ FL machine installed today and have been washing everything not nailed down. Great machine.

Thanks to everyone for their advice!

One immediate question. What is the secret to getting the leveling feet adjusted so the machine doesn't walk with a less than completely balanced load? For reference the machine is bolted to a SQ platform, sitting on a concrete slab.


Post# 636008 , Reply# 30   11/2/2012 at 19:41 (4,163 days old) by Iowegian ()        

I would say first to check that the installers really got it leveled side-to-side and front-to-back. If you have a good carpenter's level you can check that - and if they didn't do a good job, I'd call them back to correct.

Getting 4 adjustable legs set correctly and locked down takes some time, and a lot of installers won't take the time to do it correctly.


Post# 636018 , Reply# 31   11/2/2012 at 20:21 (4,163 days old) by Iowegian ()        

Oh, and make sure the installers removed the bracket that keeps the tub from bouncing around in transit.

There's a painfully obvious blue tab that sticks out the front of the machine that's attached to the shock absorber isolators that needs to be removed, but dipwad installers could fail to remove the steel bracket and bolts that keeps the tub from bouncing around...if they did their job right they should have turned over all that stuff to you to re-use in case you move.


Post# 636608 , Reply# 32   11/4/2012 at 20:15 (4,161 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
Installation issue...

The hard to reach leg wasn't locked... After leveling the machine and eliminating rocking due to a nonuniform floor, I still had to employ the adhesive floor anchor pads to prevent the machine from sliding on the tile (e.g. tile over concrete). But at this juncture the machine no longer walks and I can run it unsupervised. Vibration is still alarming for anything but an empty drum.

Malcolm - If you read this, I noticed in another thread you had difficulty with the Imperial mounted on the SQ pedestal base with respect to wobble. You cited the repair person gave you pointers on leveling the machine. Could you comment on what you did to resolve this issue?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO vsc's LINK


Post# 636658 , Reply# 33   11/5/2012 at 04:51 (4,160 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
My theory ....

chestermikeuk's profile picture
The machine would perform much better without the thin steel box underneath...

if you look at many commercial machines that are on pedestal bases or legs the metal is very thick in the corners or legs...

You need the bottom of the suspension struts within the washer to be making contact with a solid floor with minimum distance....those box pedestals just enhance that gap and any deviation, vibration or judder is just multiplied.

Also compound that with smooth ceramic tiles and "here comes ya washer meeting you at the door" you are wise to use sticky pads!!

Happy washing, Mike


Post# 636748 , Reply# 34   11/5/2012 at 14:43 (4,160 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Levelling Advice

mrb627's profile picture
Generally, the technicians were being instructed to place the stand in position by itself.  Perform leveling and lock the feet into position, then mark the floor with the position of the stand.  Mount the stand on the machine and then place into position.  Fine tune as needed.
 
The afterwards instructions were to balance and lock the legs into postion without the rubber pads in place.  Then install the rubber feet.
 
Malcolm


Post# 636779 , Reply# 35   11/5/2012 at 16:03 (4,160 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

The techs instructions sound like a variation of what is in the manuals for the machine and stand, perhaps making the job a little easier on the tech. I spoke with SQ today and they told me to expect 1/8 to 1/4 inch side to side movement without a stand and was not impressed when I cited 1/2 inch with the stand. Additionally they concurred that using the sticky pads on tile is a requirement to prevent walking.


Post# 636904 , Reply# 36   11/5/2012 at 22:32 (4,160 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
Stainless cabinet? Not so much...

SQ's advertisement for the Imperial machine cites a stainless cabinet. My washer only has a stainless top and front. Everything else is painted boiler grey over what I assume is not stainless. Also SQ didn't put their name plate on the machine (e.g. it doesn't say Speed Queen anywhere on the machine.) I'm still trying to get an answer on why.


Post# 636922 , Reply# 37   11/6/2012 at 02:49 (4,160 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Stainless

mrb627's profile picture
My machines are totally stainless on all sides. You should post a few pics to compare.

Malcolm


Post# 636926 , Reply# 38   11/6/2012 at 04:34 (4,159 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
According to Consumer Reports' tests: Vibration is a problem with Speed Queen front-loaders. They received only a "Fair" rating in that category.

Post# 636944 , Reply# 39   11/6/2012 at 06:41 (4,159 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

The sides of the machine looks like the picture below where the control box and main side panel are simply painted grey. The SQ badge is also missing from the top panel above the water temp knob leaving the machine devoid of any sign that it is a SQ machine.

My concern is split between how the machine is represented by the SQ literature, web site, dealer, etc and the cost delta paid, as well as the warrantee which cites lifetime coverage for the stainless cabinet against corrosion.


Post# 636958 , Reply# 40   11/6/2012 at 08:19 (4,159 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

Speed Queen is working to resolve...

Post# 636999 , Reply# 41   11/6/2012 at 11:37 (4,159 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Imperials

mrb627's profile picture
It seems that you may have gotten the on premises version of this machine. It most certainly isn't the same model as the machines that I and others have purchased.

Malcolm


Post# 637142 , Reply# 42   11/6/2012 at 20:36 (4,159 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
More drama...

It isn't a premises version of the machine. That is clear.

Tonight the machine managed to cause the Speed Queen adhesive floor anchors to fail, thus allowing the machine to walk out of place. Basically the adhesive failed leaving plastic film attached to the tile floor (e.g. the rubber separated from the adhesive. All this after I made sure the machine is level and equally weighted on the floor (e.g. not subject to rocking due to an uneven floor). In short there is nothing else that can be done short of bolting the cabinet to the floor. Not.

Additionally the drive belt has started slipping.

Honestly the time I have spent with this machine just trying to get it to stop vibrating out of place and putting the hoses at risk from tearing out is crazy. At this point I can't run a wash without supervising the machine to prevent damage to the laundry room. The rest of the family can't muscle the machine back into place. Way too heavy. I want my life back. I don't want to work in a laundry.

As much as it pains me to say so, I'm done.




This post was last edited 11/06/2012 at 20:53
Post# 637168 , Reply# 43   11/6/2012 at 23:32 (4,159 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

I'm sorry to hear that you've been having issues with your machine.

I wedged a block of wood between the wall and my washer, that pretty much fixed it for me.

What floor surface is the washer on?

How badly does the drive belt slip?


Post# 637171 , Reply# 44   11/6/2012 at 23:43 (4,159 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Can Only Think Vibration Problems Associated With SQ

launderess's profile picture
Are from taking a commercial washer and rejigging it for domestic use.

Miele and other EU makers of "commercial quality" domestic front loaders seem to have all but licked the vibration issue years ago for the most part. Miele will recommend support if the washer is to be located on a wooden or other non firm sort of floor, but other than that don't hear many complaints about vibrations.

OTOH, getting a new front loader installed and level so it won't vibrate can often be a several day long process involving several four finger glasses of Bourbon, and or the tearing out of massive amounts of hair from one's head.

It is rare that flooring other than concrete is perfectly level. Even the slightest incline or such can throw the "feet" off and require more fine tuning.

Once spent days using a level to get my Miele "perfect" and the thing still would vibrate. So put in a heavy load, when the machine got to spinning stood there with a tool and adjusted each leg until the vibrations stopped. Now the machine will shake a bit with unbalanced loads, but it does not move and more often than not is smooth.


Post# 637184 , Reply# 45   11/7/2012 at 00:28 (4,159 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        
I will probably be stoned for this...

But I think you are having second thoughts on your Speed Queen, why not return it if they allow, and go and buy yourself a Miele but dont go for the Super capacity just go for a regular 7.5 kg load the Ëuropean Type". I really dont think you will be disapointed.

Yes there is sometimes when there is vibration but never in 2 years that we have had it was there a "walk down the isle", even with things like heavy rugs, after all "Immer Besser".

Hope you get this issues resolved.

Regards.


Post# 637313 , Reply# 46   11/7/2012 at 11:18 (4,158 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Shipping Materials

mrb627's profile picture
Are you certain ALL the shipping brackets have been removed?

Malcolm


Post# 637389 , Reply# 47   11/7/2012 at 17:11 (4,158 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

It appears we reached an agreement to return the machine. Overall I believe everyone involved has put the customer first.

All of the shipping hardware is out. No question. And all inputs from technical support with respect to leveling, weight distribution, etc as well as employment of the adhesive anchors were implemented. We gave it our best shot.


Post# 637406 , Reply# 48   11/7/2012 at 20:19 (4,158 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
SQ FL Washers and Virbration Issues

combo52's profile picture

As a SQ dealer that has sold Many SQ FL washers we have seen some issues with vibration, we have only taken one machine back that we tried to install on a fairly sloping wooden floor, we replaced it with a WP Cabrio which had no problems on the wooden floor. As a general rule I do not sell or recommend SQ FL washers if the floor is anything but very solid and usually concrete. I have never recommended or sold a pedestal for a SQ FL washer. Pedestals create problems with all FL washers but the SQ is likley worst than most. This is part of the price you pay to have a FL washer that goes about its business without lengthily delays while the machine attempts to balance. And as with any washer the SQ will work much better if you put loads of similar weight items in it and make sure that the loads are BIG enough to balance properly.

 

And no Laundress the SQ FL washer has not been rejiggered from a commercial machine for home use. All SQ FL washers are created equal, there is no difference between the home and commercial machines in construction.


Post# 637421 , Reply# 49   11/7/2012 at 21:19 (4,158 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
there is no difference between the home and commercial machi

launderess's profile picture
Well then perhaps wherein lies the problems with vibrations.

A commercial frontloader is more likely than not to be installed on a firm enough flooring to support the machine and not cause problems. OTHO domestic front loaders as one has stated upthread must be designed to work on a range of flooring situations even if the makers suggest concrete or similar solid floors are best.

For what it is worth:


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Post# 637449 , Reply# 50   11/7/2012 at 23:59 (4,158 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

I agree with Combo52..

I've already got my Huebsch (aka Speed Queen) washer on a solid concrete floor. I had to install the rubber feet to stop it from walking and I had to wedge a block of wood between the washer and the wall so it wouldn't go anywhere.

Sometimes when it kicks into pulse spins with an uneven load, I can feel the concrete floor vibrating. It kind of took me off guard at first.

The problem is, SQ washers really don't care about how balanced the load is, unless it is something which could damage the machine. I've had loads where the tub actually banged against the cabinet, but it happily just did its thing.

Other washers, like Samsung and LG machine can add as much as 30 minutes to the cycle because they do a "Balancing Dance". (ie. They'll redistribute until they know the load is almost balanced, this can be time consuming.)

That's the one thing that impressed me about SQ/Huebsch machines.. They "Just do it" because they're tough and can handle it... at the expense of walking, vibration and noise. I love it. I can tell exactly when the washer is in spin.

I would never recommend this washer for use with a wooden floor either. There are workarounds to this, but you're probably not interested in hearing them.


Post# 637820 , Reply# 51   11/9/2012 at 16:21 (4,156 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
I'm sorry

ronhic's profile picture
...but the mere thought that in 2012 I'd have to wedge a block of wood between my washer and the wall to prevent it hitting the wall is just archaic.

Designing reliable, strong and effective suspension solutions to counter the large inertial forces generated by spinning laundry has been well and truly licked by the Europeans for years. That SQ sells a machine that can not balance properly, for what ever reason, who correctly leveled is just slap-dash.

I've had older Hoover front loaders that would rarely 'hit the cabinet', but moved no more than 1/2 inch if at all.....Italian Zanussi made machines that have never hit their cabinet or moved and a German made Blomberg that did neither. Level them side to side and the diagonals and away you go.

No fuss and no mess.


Post# 637854 , Reply# 52   11/9/2012 at 18:19 (4,156 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Vibration

mrb627's profile picture
I never had any machine walking issues with my SQ Imperials. Once the machine was properly leveled, it just ran without issue. I would doubt that the commercial user would wait around for a domestic machine to hang in its balance routine. And I am sure the owner of the laundromat would not be happy about it either.

Malcolm


Post# 637861 , Reply# 53   11/9/2012 at 18:39 (4,156 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
SQ Front Loaders At Our Local Laundromat

launderess's profile picture
Do not fuss around with spinning either. Once it is time to spin that is what happens regardless. Have stood several feet away from the larger units (35lbs and 50lbs IIRC) and yes you can feel the vibrations from the machine through the floors. This despite sitting on concrete blocks and the same type of flooring.

However the problem is that severely unbalanced loads can damage the machines. The largest unit has been out of service more than once this past year because of bearing failures. This damage was caused by customers either packing the machine too full, or washing one or two *very* heavy items such as a featherbed or feather pillow. While commercial laundries do launder such things one assumes those machines can be programmed/set to know what the machine will deal with.


Post# 637864 , Reply# 54   11/9/2012 at 19:05 (4,156 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Out Of Balance Loads and Bearing Failures

combo52's profile picture

I have never seen any evidence that bearings fail as a result of overloading or having to deal with excess vibration. Bearings fail on FL and TL washers when water seals fail, if the machines didn't use water they would last almost forever.


Post# 637925 , Reply# 55   11/9/2012 at 23:26 (4,156 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
All One Knows Is What The Laundry Attendant Tells

launderess's profile picture
Since one only goes to this particular laundromat just for the 50lb washer,am quite put out when it is "out of order" for the several weeks it takes for repairs.

Last time that particular unit went out the attendant told me a customer loaded the washer so packed she probably used her feet and or whole body to shove all in all the washing.

Apparently after the machine started one of the spins there was a loud noise then no move movment of the drum.

Now of course English is not this person's native language so have no idea if he was told the bearing had failed by a repairman or simply was making an educated guess. Do know the washer was out of of order for several weeks.


Post# 728663 , Reply# 56   1/19/2014 at 00:27 (3,721 days old) by UncleDave (California)        

uncledave's profile picture
I can't find any picts of the Speed Queen drum and no pictures with any real detail of the inside it.

Are the ladles plastic or Stainless?

Uncle Dave


Post# 728709 , Reply# 57   1/19/2014 at 09:22 (3,720 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
SQ FL Washer Drums

combo52's profile picture
Have one piece construction with the paddles being SS and part of the drum itself. The complete outer tub is also SS, SQs are probably the ONLY full sized FL washer where the outer tub is SS.

Post# 728737 , Reply# 58   1/19/2014 at 11:08 (3,720 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I have both brands of machines, the 5 & 6 kg Mieles and the big door SQ. The SQ is made to cope with heavy use while the Mieles caution that no more than 3 loads a day should be processed to avoid straining the motor, but 18 or 21 loads per week is a lot of laundry. That is the sort of use that was celebrated in Maytag ads of yore and the 5 and 6 kg Mieles easily wash as much as the standard tub and deep tub Maytags, respectively.

I cannot accept that the SQ rinses as well as the Mieles, even with an increased water level because the pulse spins leave quite a bit of water in the load between water changes. I have measured this by putting the drain hose in the sink and collecting water that is spun out of the load in a bucket during the final spin AFTER the pulse spins. Depending on the fabrics, this can be close to two gallons for towels. The rinsing is greatly improved by allowing the machine to complete the cycle with the very effective final spin and then resetting it for a rinse and spin. The Mieles, with the sensitive rinsing option programming done, complete their cycles with the load very well rinsed, whether it is the 5 rinses with less spinning in the W1918 or the three rinses with high speed extraction after each drain in the W1986. You have to remember that the cycle in the SQ is a commercial cycle with emphasis on low water consumption and a fast cycle time. The less effective intermediate spins reduce water consumption beause the more water left in the load means that each rinse fill will require less water, a major point of concern for commercial laundry owners. Cycle time is also important because the shorter the cycle, the more loads that can be washed during business hours. Jeff's Philco/Dexter commercial front loader does not even have a timer hold during the rinse fills. Whether the machine fills to the full water during each deep rinse or not, the timer keeps running. Likewise, the SQ rinse time is short with a very short tumble time after each rinse fill is completed.


On very rare occasions, I have heard the tub strike the sides of the cabinet in all three machines, but only once per spin attempt. The Mieles have very heavy counter weights and excellent suspension components. Also, by keeping the tub diameter to a set width and making the tub deeper to increase the capacity from 5 to 6 kg, the problems with load distribution and poorly distributed loads are greatly lessened. The W1986 has much more sophisticated speed control than the W1918 and the SQ has slightly more room in the cabinet for the tub to swing & strike the cabinet, which it sometimes does, but it will not go into the highest spin speed without a well-balanced load; nor will either Miele. The real place where manufacturers of these FL HE machines for the American marketplace bought themselves a whole lotta trouble is thinking that the machines had to have a tub the size of commercial FL machines which do not have suspension systems and have to be bolted down. WH FL machines had a decent size drum for a 27" cabinet and they were fairly stable on a cement floor although many of them were used on wooden floors. They did laundry for all sizes of families.

As to the sliding on the floor . If the floor has a glossy finish, the rubber feet cannot secure a good grip on the surface. I encountered that with my Unimatics when they were on a vinyl tile floor. I cut small squares of foam rubber to go between the feet and the floor and that stopped the sliding.



Post# 728741 , Reply# 59   1/19/2014 at 11:22 (3,720 days old) by Lightedcontrols ()        
I can tell you that...

...when I go out to customers homes that have Miele washers and dryers for repair, (and Bosch too) they HATE them. While Miele makes the very best new dishwasher that I know of, their laundry has LOTS of issues. Stick with the SQ 's that you can tweak the water level on and be happy with.

Post# 728757 , Reply# 60   1/19/2014 at 12:33 (3,720 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Being German...

I can say, Miele is by far the best that can happen to certain types of consumer.

Type 1: A BOL Miele here is the best for some older consumers (60-65+). Washes and rinses the used ways, results are good, quality is perfect (as long as it is one of the BOL modells with the 3-digit display and the one-knob-interface) and they will have no trouble using them and won't have any problem with faults.

Type 2: Stressed consumers (aged from 25-50 years) which are done with no quality cheap washers that wash 4h and still have bad results. A nice one-line-display modell with chrome door and they are good to go. Has some features, washes fast enough and gives anything they ask for (mostly running all day long without issues).

Type 3: Smaller families. The get certain capacity and well thought programms for some price, while still trusting into something that works.

But there are consumers who just do not connect to Miele. Types like "I don't care how to wash" and "I have ______ (enter number of children from 3-800) children and need to wash lots and lots of clothes!!!" and, last but not least, "I want bling bling and nothing else".
Lastly, I have to admit that we went away from Miele because we are the 2nd kind of Miele-Non-Connectable household. We wash for 7 of us and even with 2 washers, we have to run at least 7 cycles a week in our Panasonic and a Miele is just to small! And think about the Miele that was even smaller! Ran 10 cycles a week! But we know what we have choosen and yes, it is boring that the Pani already has broken shocks (started measuring the spincycle-times now), but better that haveing our Miele running all day long and still not better results!


Post# 728838 , Reply# 61   1/19/2014 at 17:38 (3,720 days old) by washer111 ()        
SQ is the only Washer with a Stainless Drum

This is COMPLETELY false. 

 

Our Miele washer, plus countless other Miele washer utilise the stainless-steel outer drum. There are photos all over this site that I won't even bother searching that prove this statement hands down. 


Post# 728881 , Reply# 62   1/19/2014 at 19:33 (3,720 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
SQ FL Washers With SS Outer Tubs

combo52's profile picture
I am talking about real full sized washers which by definition would be at least 27" wide, is Miele still making such a machine?.

Post# 728898 , Reply# 63   1/19/2014 at 20:32 (3,720 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Not 27" IIRC but Miele USA does have the commercial "Little Giant" series of washers, and they are rated to hold fifteen pounds of washing.

The previous and now discontinued 4xxx series washing machines were some what misleading IMHO. Yes they were huge machines but everything one read stated you were supposed to load them only three-quarters full for "normal" cottons or such cycles. So in reality those machines probably held much less than many consumers assumed.


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Post# 728900 , Reply# 64   1/19/2014 at 20:37 (3,720 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
IIRC The Only Fiberglass Outer Tub Washer Miele Sold

launderess's profile picture
In the USA was the now discontinued 4XXX series. All others including the 30XX and "Little Giant" units have SS outer tubs. However one *thinks* Miele does have fiberglass outer tubs on some of it's offerings in Europe.

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Post# 728913 , Reply# 65   1/19/2014 at 21:08 (3,720 days old) by washer111 ()        

Our machine is the W5741, and from memory ours is the 7.5kg (16.5lb) model. I'm not sure of the dimensions, but I would assume it is 27" in width, but I'd have to check. The machine is certainly wider than the Dishwasher, thats for sure. *EDIT* You can ignore that last bit. I don't have the manual on hand, and I certainly won't hunt for it. 

 

What I do know is another member posted a photo of our machine's sister model (Identical controls and features), and that showed a Stainless Drum with the top removed. Link included: http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?39418

 

 

 


Post# 728917 , Reply# 66   1/19/2014 at 21:23 (3,720 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi Washer,

All the domestic machines for sale in AU are 60cm/24" its not until you get up into the mega expensive models that they get even bigger.

Even the entry level Little Giant is still 60cm/24" it is just deeper rather than wider.

The big models are all SS inside and out, but the model after the little Giant starts at about $6.5K AUD, so very much out of the ballpark of a Speed Queen front loader.

Regards

Nathan


Post# 728931 , Reply# 67   1/19/2014 at 22:41 (3,720 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Miele professional for the home

mielerod69's profile picture
Yes Miele make a 10 kg rated PW6088 which is designed for 30,000 hours of operation which is equivalent to 30,000 wash loads as the cycles times are under an hour. Both inner and outer drums are stainless steel.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


Post# 729012 , Reply# 68   1/20/2014 at 08:26 (3,719 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Miele make a 10 kg rated PW6088

mrb627's profile picture
Shame this model isn't offered in the US marketplace.

Malcolm


Post# 729033 , Reply# 69   1/20/2014 at 10:08 (3,719 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Well, but it there is a simmilar one!

Do not know the modell number, but it is on the Miele Professional USA web site!

Post# 729040 , Reply# 70   1/20/2014 at 10:52 (3,719 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
The Miele Octoplus Models

mrb627's profile picture
Yes there is a version in BLUE sold over here in the states, but my retailer was not willing to sell them for use in a domestic installation. Noting that there was an obvious pinch point between the guts of the machine and the cabinet front. The liability issue of a child losing a finger to the machine would be suspect.

That and they would retail for just over $14,000. Require customer electrical service, and there is no parts network for them in the US.

Malcolm


Post# 729071 , Reply# 71   1/20/2014 at 14:21 (3,719 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
After the 4XXX series fiasco don't think we will be seeing any further 27" units from Miele for domestic use. Yes, you'll find them on higher end commercial machines but otherwise don't see it happening.

It must have been hugely shameful for Miele to pull the plug on those units after a few years of sales/production.


Post# 729076 , Reply# 72   1/20/2014 at 14:38 (3,719 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Yeah

mrb627's profile picture
I'm sure that is a bruise that hasn't quite gone away yet.

While I did like the W3033 washer somewhat, the dryer was terrible to live with. Slow and wrinkles abound. Can't say that I miss it.

Malcolm


Post# 729079 , Reply# 73   1/20/2014 at 14:57 (3,719 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Sad thing is Miele is locked into stocking parts for fifteen or so years after last sale date.

When you think of all the R&D and production costs that went into that line am sure someone was sat down, if not lost their job after that disaster.

IIRC Miele claimed it was poor sales that caused the decision, but I've heard different things from various sources. Will say for their cost the uber-sized Miele units were probably out classed by Whirlpool, Electrolux and even LG.


Post# 729117 , Reply# 74   1/20/2014 at 16:37 (3,719 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
I am talking about real full sized washers....

ronhic's profile picture

 .....which by definition would be at least 27" wide

 

 


Only in America. Everywhere else, a front load washer would be considered 'normal' at 24"/60cm. The term 'full sized' wouldn't even come into the conversation.

 

Anything larger than 24"/60cm would be considered - 'out-sized' or 'extra large'.

 

For the majority of houses/flats/apartments in Europe and many in Australia where the tendency has been to build in front load appliances and where the cabinet sizes 'off the shelf' are 30/45/60/75/90cm, to go outside of the norm is to significantly increase the cost of any build just to put in an appliance that is wider with no tangible benefit.

 

If there was a tangible benefit, American 'full sized' front load appliances would be a significant player on the global stage, not just in the Americas.

 

They are not.


Post# 729133 , Reply# 75   1/20/2014 at 17:38 (3,719 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Which is why the Miele uber-sized units failed IIRC. Miele only produced and sold the units for the North American market. That meant having just the one sales territory to recoup entire R&D, production and so forth costs.

As one recalls front loaders with 27" cabinets are not huge sellers in Europe. Just as American top loading washing machines have long come in a pretty tight range of sizes, same applies to the EU market.

Miele probably tried to answer the complaints that has deviled their sales for laundry appliances from the start; consumers consider an 5kg or so capacity washer too "small". Thus outside of a small niche market many avoided Miele washing machines and dryers. Well there was that and the 220v power supply. In the end Miele solved the one problem but couldn't the other.

It is worth noting that other German washer makers such as Bosch also quit the uber-sized market as well. This leaves only LG, Electrolux and a few others to duke it out.

Problem is that with front loaders there is no free lunch. Most are happy when doing normal loads when done at or near capacity. Purchasing a 15lb washer for only the occasional laundering of a duvet but routine washing of five pounds is asking for trouble in some machines. They simply cannot balance those loads. This is becoming more and more of a problem as Americans move their laundry areas from basements with their solid concrete flooring to first or even second floors.



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