Thread Number: 45128
New LG front load washer: just one rinse?
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Post# 661494   2/21/2013 at 15:56 (4,079 days old) by johnmk ()        

The other day I had some time to spare, so decided I'd run a Cotton/Normal 100% default cycle on my LG WM3470 washer/dryer. Somehow, I can't remember how exactly, I had the impression that it would do two rinses. Let me define rinse, as far as I've intuitively defined it all my life: drain dirty/soapy wash water, spin, fill, slosh around, drain, spin. That's one rinse cycle. And that's what my LG WM3470 does in its default Cotton/Normal cycle. Lots of research led me to believe that all modern front loading clothes washers do two rinses default, so I just took it for granted that mine did too. Do I have a misunderstanding of what constitutes a rinse, or does my LG WM3470 really only do one rinse in the default cycle? Does that manner of rinse carry over into all other cycles, too?

Aside from the experimental sacrifice above, I've almost always selected Extra Rinse. Almost as a needless luxury, but it's something I want anyway. It just seems bizarre that Extra Rinse is what's needed to get me up to Two rinses. All along I just assumed it was buying me a total of Three rinses.

The only other thing I can imagine is that somehow the Cottons/Normal default cycle, which includes the activation of TurboWash, does away with one rinse? I have no evidence for that, just putting it out there as one variable that I might test for in the future. Both Cotton/Normal itself as one variable vs. other cycles, and the TurboWash option. Several permutations to go through here, perhaps I should set up a video camera and record what the clothes washer is up to so I can fast-forward through the boring parts, instead of sitting down there with a book and glancing up to observe every minute or two.

I find it disappointing that the curious-minded, slightly obsessive folk like me must resort to these types of investigations to find out what our modern clothes washers are up to, when instead LG and other manufacturers could just put the raw data out there so we can spend our time on real hobbies.

Maybe this is covered in the service manual? Any idea where I can get that for the LG WM3470?






Post# 661535 , Reply# 1   2/21/2013 at 19:49 (4,079 days old) by golittlesport (California)        
Very strange indeed

golittlesport's profile picture
I've never heard of a front load washer that only does one deep rinse...either modern or vintage. That does not seem to be sufficient rinsing.

My Frigidaire front loader has a minimum of two rinses in every cycle. Quick Wash and Touch Up has two rinses, Normal has three, Heavy soil/whites has four. The instructions recommend a very light dose of detergent in the two-rinse cycles.


Post# 661539 , Reply# 2   2/21/2013 at 20:09 (4,078 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
there is nothing wrong with one rinse i would say that its normal to have 1 rinse if no other options are selected unless its a generation 1 lg washer

Post# 661580 , Reply# 3   2/22/2013 at 02:05 (4,078 days old) by fido ()        

It seems odd to me. Machines I've observed on test usually do 3 rinses but I have known some that did 4.

Post# 661583 , Reply# 4   2/22/2013 at 02:33 (4,078 days old) by dj-Gabriele ()        
1-rinse is GROSS

All the modern machines I've known do 2 rinses when the load is less then full and/or choosing a normal wash cycle, they do 3 rinses when detecting a full load or using an intensive/no spin-delicate cycle.

The only instance of machines doing only one rinse was in those gross 14-16 minutes refresh cycle that are recommended to be run with 1/5-1/3 at best of detergent and they use a DEEP water level! But anything less of 60 minutes in a modern front loader is just yucky as they aren't designed to clean in that little time!


Post# 661593 , Reply# 5   2/22/2013 at 04:55 (4,078 days old) by chris74 ()        
As we own a Euro toploader...

...I cannot actually tell you what a front loader normally does but back in time, I would say 3 to 5 rinses could be objected as regular. Maybe your washer is very HE and one doesn't know with these modern energy saving machines...

Post# 661599 , Reply# 6   2/22/2013 at 06:02 (4,078 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Shocker

mrb627's profile picture
It would not surprise me one bit if another manufacturer is using the "NORMAL" cycle to gain the "ECO" advantage on the energy star list. Perhaps it is the only cycle that skimps on the rinsing ability.

Malcolm


Post# 661604 , Reply# 7   2/22/2013 at 06:33 (4,078 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Pierre, we are discussing a front loader, not a top loader. One deep rinse on a front loader has not been seen since the first Bendix and Westinghouse washers and they quickly changed that. I think both used a spray, deep, spray sequence. Malcolm is probably right, it is the cycle used to brown nose the Department of Energy folks, who don't give a fried damn about results, just how little water is used. They would probably top rate a washer with no fill valves at all because it would have the lowest water consumption.

Post# 661606 , Reply# 8   2/22/2013 at 07:02 (4,078 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
From my understanding, TurboWash will rinse the clothes during a low-speed spin using the rinse jet. A 'deep' rinse only takes place for the softening rinse:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK


Post# 661625 , Reply# 9   2/22/2013 at 08:40 (4,078 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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I was just reading the LG website the other day about the Turbo Wash jet system models. It was my understanding that in order to save time, the jet spray system was used for washing and rinsing. I would like to know if they do omit the "deep" tumble rinse if used without fabric softener. From the videos on their site, it looks like there is a recirculated spray in the wash and a fresh water spray in the rinse. Substituting a fill & tumble rinse for a shower-spray rinse wouldn't probably cut it for me either if only done once.

Whirlpool topload HE washers use a shower spray while revolving the basket at low speeds but this is done in several sequences with higher speed spins between each shower segment.

Samsung also has this jet-spray system in a few of their models as well, not sure of their cycle sequencing though.

Are there cycles on your washer that default to the Turbo Wash system automatically or is it always an option that must be selected? I think it would be rather reassuring to see the water squirting on the load, at least the visual presence of water at work in the machine is a good thing.


Post# 661633 , Reply# 10   2/22/2013 at 09:39 (4,078 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Greg, as opposed to the virtual presence of water in the machine when it's not seen?

Post# 661667 , Reply# 11   2/22/2013 at 13:26 (4,078 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
Exactly, Tom! Seeing water would at least give a better impression and likely save many calls to service centers by non-readers asking "where's the water?"


Post# 661693 , Reply# 12   2/22/2013 at 14:48 (4,078 days old) by johnmk ()        

I specifically looked for the use of the high-powered rinse jet, and didn't see it kick into action. I stand by my observation that there appeared to me to be only one rinse. Nothing that even remotely approaches the definition of "rinse" occurred more than once.

I washed some dress slacks today using Permanent Press cycle and used Extra Rinse, and noticed lots of studs in the wash water -- it looks like my mother's front loader also doesn't appear to rinse well, since the last time I washed those slacks was in her 8-year-old Kenmore FL machine. She probably used the Speed Wash, though, as she always does. It wouldn't surprise me if that only does one rinse.


Post# 661733 , Reply# 13   2/22/2013 at 17:46 (4,078 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Does the jet come on for other cycles? Is there water going in between the post-wash spin and the final rinse - for a potential spray rinse?

Post# 661885 , Reply# 14   2/23/2013 at 13:22 (4,077 days old) by johnmk ()        

I haven't yet had the time to test all possible combination of settings; when I have acquired a critical mass of information, I'll certainly share it. My plan is to borrow a friend's digital video camera and start recording the activities of each cycle, with and without various options, but only as the necessity for laundering permits.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.


Post# 661888 , Reply# 15   2/23/2013 at 13:29 (4,077 days old) by johnmk ()        

Is anyone aware of an affordable water-use meter that I could use to see how much water is used? Either 3/4" garden hose thread or 1/2" NPT preferably.

Post# 661906 , Reply# 16   2/23/2013 at 14:39 (4,077 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
maybe you should check to see if your cycle is not set on a normal quick wash cycle as this cycle is short in term of wash time?

Post# 663563 , Reply# 17   3/2/2013 at 23:06 (4,069 days old) by johnmk ()        
I've uploaded a video to youtube of the default Cotton/N

I've uploaded a video of the default Cotton/Normal cycle, and I'm saddened to report that it looks like one rinse indeed. More experiments/videos will follow as time/inclination permits.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO johnmk's LINK


Post# 663583 , Reply# 18   3/3/2013 at 07:22 (4,069 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

nmassman44's profile picture
Well I watched the video and I counted a spray rinse for the first spin then a deep rinse with a good amount of water...more than what was used during the wash cycle. Then two spray rinses in the final spin and that was during high speed spin. To me if it sprays with a rather high spin occurring then it will drive the water thru the load rather well. I can see the concern if one uses too much detergent then I would use the extra rinse or a softener rinse. Interesting machine to watch.

Post# 663586 , Reply# 19   3/3/2013 at 09:25 (4,069 days old) by johnmk ()        

Thank you for your thoughts, nmassman44.

The machine empties the wash water, spins, and then as it's filling up with rinse water, it does spray it over the clothes all throughout. That's all part of one rinse, though -- one fill of water. If you listen closely to the sound you can tell when water's being drained, when water's being filled, etc. That helps to clarify things.

A single fill of water is just a single rinse. How can rinse be defined any differently? Does each tumble constitute a new rinse? Then there might be hundreds of rinses, by that definition. But that definition would be absurd.


Post# 663587 , Reply# 20   3/3/2013 at 09:32 (4,069 days old) by johnmk ()        

To clarify even further, there are only two drain cycles. One after the wash, and one after the rinse.

Post# 663598 , Reply# 21   3/3/2013 at 12:22 (4,069 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
There is a spray rinse kicking in at 18:00. It works just like the spray rinse in a top loader, I'd say - spray fresh water over the clothes and drain it out simultaneously.

Post# 663631 , Reply# 22   3/3/2013 at 14:21 (4,069 days old) by johnmk ()        

I believe it's only draining out the rest of the wash water, and at the highest spin speed the water just ends up flying every which way, especially that water that exits the drum at the top, and which gets spread out quite flat by the massive centrifugal forces, and has no other way to go except out in every direction.

I've been there during this process, and there's no fresh/clean water entering at that time.


Post# 663778 , Reply# 23   3/4/2013 at 09:26 (4,068 days old) by newwave1 (Lincoln, United Kingdom)        

newwave1's profile picture
I wanted to add to this on a couple of experiences.

I hsve owned an lg washer & it was my favourite to date, it had a recirculatory jet which was very powerful & hit the back of the drum, I wouldn't discount the effectiveness of the recirculatory jets, they enable an effective rinse at low levels.

Combining the high spin and fresh water spray before the deep rinse with the jets, it might not be rinsing that bad.

I accidentally found my Dyson washing machine does something similar when you select the dirt only soil setting, the load size recommended is a half load, the machine spins at max spin (1400rpm) after the main wash followed by a very high level rinse and then a 7 minute final spin at 1400rpm. The result was surprising good, luckily though I can add up to 5 rinses.

Darren


Post# 663786 , Reply# 24   3/4/2013 at 11:16 (4,068 days old) by johnmk ()        

Hi Darren,

Thank you for your sharing your experience. The recirculating jets are a fantastic concept, no doubt about it. However, I don't understand how recirculating soapy water provides an appropriate level of rinsing within one rinse, using one fill of water.


Post# 663850 , Reply# 25   3/4/2013 at 17:53 (4,068 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
It sprays fresh water through the clothes as they spin - once before and twice after the deep rinse with softener - and immediately drains the water out of the tub during thses spray rinses. It only recirculates water during the main wash and the deep rinse.

Post# 663879 , Reply# 26   3/4/2013 at 21:48 (4,067 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Here we go

logixx's profile picture
Taken from the (rather useless and uninformative) service manual for the WM8000.

There are a four hoses in the first picture going from the water valves to the dispenser and one hose to the front of the washer - which supplies FRESH water for the spray rinses. In the second pic, you can see where the hose disappears behind the counterweight to then connect to the spray rinse nozzle in the rubber gasket.

Alex


Post# 663884 , Reply# 27   3/4/2013 at 22:28 (4,067 days old) by johnmk ()        

Thank you Alex!

I would love to have access to that service manual for the WM8000, as I suspect my 3470 is similar to it in many respects. Can you hook me up? Even better would be the WM3470 service manual, but I think you would have referenced that one, if you'd had it.


Post# 663891 , Reply# 28   3/4/2013 at 23:13 (4,067 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
The service manual has no information on cycles or even water temps in it at all - worthless. It just contains a table that lists the cycles and options like the user's manual does.

I found it on a page called electrotanya, IIRC. Try this name plus wm8000 service manual in Google. If you can't find it, I'll give you the link tomorrow.


Post# 663894 , Reply# 29   3/5/2013 at 00:06 (4,067 days old) by johnmk ()        

I found it, thank you for the information. You're quite right, it is not too helpful here. Also found the service manual for the WM3470, but I fear these service manuals we've been looking at are for the simple repairman, and it's nothing like a technical manual w/ highly detailed specifications.

There might be info in there that is pertinent to the rinsing situation, I'm not sure I understand it, but in any case my experience is that the rinse cycle only makes one single request for fresh water in the default cottons/normal cycle.


Post# 664019 , Reply# 30   3/5/2013 at 15:45 (4,067 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
There are four (4) requests for fresh water after the suds have been spun from the load.

Well, you can contact LG and see if they're willing to send you a cycle overview. I have seen these overviews before and they are not that comprehensive. They used to be included in the service manual.


Post# 664061 , Reply# 31   3/5/2013 at 19:20 (4,067 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
This is what one of these cycle overviews looks like. This one is from a long-discontinued model's (WM3885) service manual. And in the video, a lady talks of a - as she calls it - cheat-sheet.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK



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