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Thread Number: 45257
Don't Do LG Topload Washer Recall Unless You Want Wet Clothes |
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Post# 663037 , Reply# 1 2/28/2013 at 11:48 (4,072 days old) by rinso  (Meridian Idaho) |
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Yet another recall band-aid fix, rather than solving the real problem. | ||
| Post# 663044 , Reply# 2 2/28/2013 at 12:58 (4,071 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California) | ||
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| Post# 663046 , Reply# 3 2/28/2013 at 13:38 (4,071 days old) by georgect (Fairfield, CT) | ||
Like I said on the other forum
This just makes me hate LG more and more when I read something like this.
Like rinso said, instead of getting to the REAL issue (off balance sensors) they slapped a ban-aid on it slowing the spin speed down to something ridiculous. Yeah, no more exploding washers but now the thing doesn't spin the clothes fast enough to wring the water out. Bad LG...Bad! | ||
| Post# 663061 , Reply# 6 2/28/2013 at 14:21 (4,071 days old) by powrbruh (Odenton, MD) | ||
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I will check to see if there are some consumer laws that will help me with this situation. This is utterly ridiculous. | ||
| Post# 663079 , Reply# 7 2/28/2013 at 15:52 (4,071 days old) by DirectDriveDave () | ||
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What kind of nonsense is that?? SO glad I don't have one of these.....So I guess the suspension is just as bad as before, then! | ||
| Post# 663092 , Reply# 8 2/28/2013 at 16:51 (4,071 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
RPM Meter | ||
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Post# 663097 , Reply# 9 2/28/2013 at 17:06 (4,071 days old) by pulltostart (Mobile, AL) |
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 Seems to me that if the manufacturer offered that product with certain performance characteristics, and those (especially one) of those characteristics was the reason you purchased the product, then the manufacturer deliberately removed the appliance's ability to perform as previously advertised AND offered - there are your grounds for return/exchange/refund or whatever recourse you want to pursue. The change in the behavior and performance of the appliance had nothing to to with either your use or abuse - the manufacturer pursued this on their own. And they can't claim that prior to the recall work the appliance did not perform as advertised, because you know, and can testify to the fact, that it did.
Face it - LG took away your 'happy place' and they (not you) should be held accountable.
lawrence | ||
| Post# 663352 , Reply# 11 3/1/2013 at 20:08 (4,070 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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Seek the help of a consumer association and ask for a total refound or a new machine from a different manufacturer! (And possibly an American or European one and not crappy Korean stuff...) | ||
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Post# 663387 , Reply# 12 3/2/2013 at 00:13 (4,070 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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Trade,sell,refund the LG's toward VINTAGE machines from a swap shop!Then you are more free to wash what you want. | ||
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Post# 663442 , Reply# 13 3/2/2013 at 08:51 (4,070 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA) |
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Ya know, this is getting to be the "norm". Cadillac recalled my SRX to fix a timing chain "issue". The fix was to "de-tune" the very friggin' engine that they touted to sell the damn car. So I ended up with a much less fun to drive car. | ||
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Post# 663451 , Reply# 14 3/2/2013 at 09:47 (4,070 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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That's why you can find people posting 2+ hours videos of the LG on YouTube...
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK | ||
| Post# 663470 , Reply# 15 3/2/2013 at 12:51 (4,069 days old) by ptcruiser51 (Boynton Beach, FL) | ||
GE Profile | ||
| Post# 663473 , Reply# 16 3/2/2013 at 12:57 (4,069 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Ge Harmony | ||
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Post# 663482 , Reply# 17 3/2/2013 at 13:08 (4,069 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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"I should not wash certain items"
"Certain Items" are mainly water-proof and water-resistant items. I guess these items can hold water and release it suddenly during the high-speed spin cycle.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK 
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Post# 663510 , Reply# 18 3/2/2013 at 14:53 (4,069 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 663518 , Reply# 19 3/2/2013 at 16:03 (4,069 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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| Post# 663745 , Reply# 21 3/4/2013 at 02:59 (4,068 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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Qualin, why should he have to spend more money to work around the deficiencies of a faulty machine? Plus a machine that doesn't spin is a machine that doesn't rinse and LG is a looser in all the aspects! | ||
| Post# 663748 , Reply# 22 3/4/2013 at 03:37 (4,068 days old) by alr2903 (TN) | ||
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I think this shabby washer construction will come to an end. Just wait until some inquisitive child is injured or worse. I understand the concern about water savings. Where in the world are the UL people and such? | ||
| Post# 663815 , Reply# 25 3/4/2013 at 15:16 (4,067 days old) by electron1100 (England) | ||
worrying
What worries me is that commpanies like LG will happily kill off established manufacturers of machines until we in the west are totally reliant on them to provide us with consumer goods, and this is what we will end up with 3rd rate equipment but of course by then they will calling all the shots and we as consumers will be pissed on from a great height.
This is not good at all, there is absolutely no excuse for any manufacturer today to make unreliable or faulty goods, all the lessons learnt over the years should be put into practise, but of course every new generation of buyers wont be aware of this when they are looking at the new all singing all dancing glitter boxes. Good luck with your spin problem Gary | ||
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Post# 663931 , Reply# 30 3/5/2013 at 07:20 (4,067 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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How Washington Ruined Your Washing Machine? | ||
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Post# 663940 , Reply# 31 3/5/2013 at 07:48 (4,067 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Scare tactics in print?
WSJ - sadly, has now become one of the contributors to the media mis-information revolution. Perhaps things are improving there, there are no results for a search at WSJ for the author of that opinion space-filling garbage.
The author works for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, an oil company-Koch brothers funded "libertarian think tank." LOL They barely rub up against reality. Take it all with a grain of detergent! LOL | ||
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Post# 664010 , Reply# 32 3/5/2013 at 15:22 (4,066 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land) |
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Removing the "Fix" will just make the machine danger
Wow Qualin, do you really believe that?? These machines are SO unsafe out of the box they will randomly self destruct when being used properly and correctly?? Really??
Powrbruh said he's used his set for over two years with zero problems and the washer has not destroyed it self once, imagine that!
While yes I agree LG is to fault for a possible "lacking" suspension design, but so more the total lack of off balance sensors to stop the washer from self destructing when it IS off balance while spinning.
But IMHO, more to blame is the consumer who is using the washer incorrectly by trying to wash large, bulky or single items like a single pillow on the "normal" cycle rather than the "bulky items" cycle like they are SUPPOSED to which reduces the spin speed.
All this reminds me of the problems Audi encountered in the early 80's with the "unintended acceleration" crap. The people testing the cars were able to FORCIBLY reproduce the unintended acceleration under very specific and extreme test conditions, which would NEVER occur in any normal driving condition. Just like this LG washer issue, the problem was the idiot behind the wheel, not the machine being used.
Kevin This post was last edited 03/05/2013 at 16:24 | ||
| Post# 664108 , Reply# 33 3/5/2013 at 22:22 (4,066 days old) by tecnopolis (Ocala/Dunnellon, Florida 34481) | ||
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| Post# 664112 , Reply# 34 3/5/2013 at 22:40 (4,066 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
Sorry LG, there is no excuse for deleting balance sensors. A $15 toy helicopter has one, so how much could they possibly cost?
Even if the machine is used appropriately, it is possible for a normal load to wad up on one side of the tub and unbalance. That could happen in every washer I ever used. So I don't agree it's all operator error. I DO agree that the factory derating the machine so it's no longer what you bought is a sorry excuse for a solution. | ||
| Post# 664292 , Reply# 36 3/6/2013 at 21:10 (4,065 days old) by Huebschman (Quebec, CA) | ||
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Last Qualin post.... Here! Here! I remember my mom's washing machine that walked a meter in less than a minute... Still worked great for the next decade... | ||
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Post# 664296 , Reply# 37 3/6/2013 at 23:29 (4,065 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Could it be this simple? LG has 457,000 machines affected in the recall. 343 (0.075%) reported excessive vibration and 187 (0.04%) reports of minor property damage. You have a higher risk of being struck by lightning than having an LG washing machine tear apart your house. This post was last edited 03/06/2013 at 23:57 | ||
| Post# 664307 , Reply# 38 3/7/2013 at 02:01 (4,065 days old) by alr2903 (TN) | ||
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Greg, thank YOU! If thats the same lightning that dictates powerball odds, I totally get it. arthur | ||
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Post# 664599 , Reply# 41 3/8/2013 at 18:28 (4,063 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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| Post# 665269 , Reply# 43 3/11/2013 at 23:15 (4,060 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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Not to diminish your disgruntlement, but 700rpm is not the end of the world. My 1998 FL ElectroFrigiWhite is 800rpm and while that's pale compared to my 1973 Panasonic twintub at 1700rpm it's not sopping wet either and takes barely over a half hour in my 120V Kenmore compact dryer.
By all means get the best settlement you can negotiate. As said times before, it is NOT the product you purchased and we all think you are entitled to compensation for that. But even if you are totally stonewalled, it is still usable. At least until something worse goes wrong. Eh? | ||
| Post# 665294 , Reply# 44 3/12/2013 at 01:19 (4,060 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Optional | ||
| Post# 665299 , Reply# 45 3/12/2013 at 01:31 (4,060 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Harmony | ||
| Post# 665366 , Reply# 48 3/12/2013 at 08:59 (4,060 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Website | ||
| Post# 665374 , Reply# 49 3/12/2013 at 11:01 (4,060 days old) by powrbruh (Odenton, MD) | ||
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Malcolm, Yes it does states the 5101HW spins at 1100rpms. I have printed a copy of it also. The newer generation of my washer states a final spin of 1100rpms as well. But I am told 700rpms is now the final spin speed. Bullsh*t!!!! | ||
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Post# 665380 , Reply# 50 3/12/2013 at 11:22 (4,060 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I checked the LG website a couple of times to see if spin speeds had been altered, but they remain at full-on explosion speeds. I would venture a guess that the website hasn't been updated, but that all those machines have been reprogrammed to spin at 700---unless they've swapped out the problematic plastic parts. Which I doubt.
I know I'd be mad if, say, I bought a dishwasher that was rated at 42 decibels, only to find it was closer to 50 decibels when installed. Go get 'em, powrbruh! This post was last edited 03/12/2013 at 13:04 | ||
| Post# 665546 , Reply# 54 3/13/2013 at 06:58 (4,059 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
 The technology from the 1940's allowed top-loading washers to spin at speed higher than 1100 RPM without self-destructing, I don't see why today's technology wouldn't allow it. I just finished two loads with my 56 years old Frigidaire this morning and it's still not self-destructing at 1140 RPM speed and I'm sure other posters in this thread do exactly the same! Of course, it's jut a 9 pounds washer and it does get off-balance occasionally but it's still holding together fine!
I think that many new washers like the LG won't hold together so nicely as their plastic components age, even when correctly loaded... But maybe they have a few other self-destructing parts like control boards that will go wrong and prevent a more dramatic failure before they get 20 or even just 10 years old (unless the faulty control board suddenly allows it to spin at extremely high uncontrolled speeds!).
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| Post# 665709 , Reply# 56 3/14/2013 at 00:20 (4,058 days old) by georgect (Fairfield, CT) | ||
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Stick it to LG
Their (LG's) "work a round" fix of slowing the spin speed and making it longer is shotty service if I ever heard it.
I'm with you powrbruh, you didn't buy this machine you have now with the software change. And with an HE machine, not only does it save on water but it's supposed to wring out almost all the water permissible, depending on fabric and cycle of course. Saving even more on drying resources. That's why TOL washers have the highest spin speeds. More money spent up front is supposed to get you more/higher features (that's their selling point). My current standard top loading 14 year old Whirlpool does a better job at wringing out water than your one year old LG HE machine. My dryer, drying towels, underwear, sock and such takes 50 minutes and sheets take 30 minutes. | ||
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Post# 665744 , Reply# 57 3/14/2013 at 06:41 (4,058 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Max spin
I looked at a service manual (WT5070) thinking there's got to be a way for you to read out the spin speed as the drums spins. Usually, all LG washers will display things like drum speed, water level and temperature if one presses the right combination of buttons during the cycle. Couln't find it in the manual, though - just an overview for the test mode.
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| Post# 665750 , Reply# 58 3/14/2013 at 07:30 (4,058 days old) by washer111 () | ||
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10 times pushing Pushing the button (Start/Pause) 10 times will get you a spin (high speed), showing T8 and RPM. It says so on the sheet above :-) | ||
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Post# 666126 , Reply# 59 3/15/2013 at 19:37 (4,056 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@Qualin
IIRC the mandated energy restrictions/use for American washing machines take into account the amount of water left in laundry after extraction. One supposes this factor was included because most Americans dry their laundry in tumble dryers.
Either gas or electric heated the use of dryers is probably the largest energy draw on wash day, well unless one is doing several loads in hot water with warm rinses suppose. As for American top loaders historically not really going beyond 700rpms one has two thoughts. One is why should they? I mean until the "Energy Crisis" of the 1970's and other factors most American housewives either hung laundry outside to dry and or in the era of cheap energy didn't care how much gas or electric was used to dry nearly dripping wet laundry. The other reason is one is certain bodily harm liability had something to do with things. I mean aside from Hoover and other twin tubs separate high speed extractors never really caught on with American homes, though they long could be found in commerical laundries. Though once common today it is rare to find a "Bock" or similar extractor in laundromats, well not at least around here. One inquired years ago as to why and was told it was due to liability issues. Apparently it is even difficult or impossible to get laundromat insurance if one has such extractors installed for customer use. One of the only way top loading washing machines are going to survive in the United States is if they find clever ways to reduce energy consumption and that includes residual moisture. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 666313 , Reply# 61 3/16/2013 at 16:11 (4,055 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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People Were Allot Less "Sue" Happy In The 1940's
Well at least in the United States. *LOL*
IIRC Frigidare dropped their 1100rpm spin speed as the tub grew larger for greater capacity. The early models with fast spins had more of a bowl shaped tub, sort of what one finds in commercial extractors. F&P's washers spin at >1000 rpms, so it is not unheard of for modern top loaders to reach those speeds. However IIRC Consumer Reports rates F&P washers as more repair prone than others on the US market. | ||
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Post# 666372 , Reply# 62 3/16/2013 at 20:59 (4,055 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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F&P's washers spin at >1000 rpms, so it is not unheard o | ||
| Post# 666385 , Reply# 63 3/16/2013 at 22:02 (4,055 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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With "exploding washers" do we have two distinct problems? One is clearly drum integrity. We've seen the photos of the drum literally unravelling from the G force of high spin and shooting through the outer tub and cabinet.
Is the other suspension integrity? Whereby the machine damages itself as a result of an unbalanced load plus substandard (plastic) suspension mounts. And/or, no effective means of detecting imbalance. Our 50s Westy would whoop and bang and dance across the floor if the contents glommed up on one side of the drum. It would unseat the upper-rear suspension elements which would have to be reseated. I can't count how many times I did that. But it NEVER destroyed itself or anything around it. | ||
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Post# 666427 , Reply# 66 3/17/2013 at 07:16 (4,055 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Well Be That As It May | ||
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Post# 666467 , Reply# 69 3/17/2013 at 12:38 (4,055 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Will Peep At Model Number and RPM Next Time | ||
| Post# 666841 , Reply# 71 3/18/2013 at 16:36 (4,053 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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Excellent, please keep us informed! | ||
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Post# 668403 , Reply# 74 3/25/2013 at 22:34 (4,046 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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How many extra rinses can the 8000 do? I have played with some of the Kenmores (by LG) and each press of the Extra Rinse button would add another rinse - five rinses in total. The Speed Queen can have its water level adjusted and is durable for sure. Some people have commented that its pulse spins don't remove much of the sudsy water between the rinses, though. Hm...
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Post# 668434 , Reply# 75 3/26/2013 at 05:19 (4,046 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I steered friends with four kids toward the new mega LG pair (model WM8000 for the washer) and they love it--and the LG dealer loves me for selling a TOL set off the showroom floor for him. I was concerned about vibration issues, as they're installed just off the kitchen in a first-floor laundry room, but when I was there a few days ago to watch it in action (a maximum-capacity load of various denims) there wasn't a vibration to be felt (no pedestals). They both felt the increased cycle time was offset by the cavernous capacity. Let me tell you, those machines are huge inside and out. 5.1 cu. ft. drum in the washer; 9.0 in the dryer.
They are not, however, "washer-heads", nor do they like doing laundry (hence the laser-focused desire for huge capacity). Nearly everything will get washed on the Normal cycle in warm water. I did convince them to use Tide Vivid HE---although I couldn't coax them to use the higher-rated powdered version---instead of whatever is on sale, so they are happy with the cleaning. I told them about the Turbo-Wash setting, which sprays water on the load and shortens the cycle length, but I'm sure they'll never use it because it would mean pressing another button, LOL. They did use the Allergy cycle for bed linens, and the Sanitize cycle for a load of whites, so maybe there's hope. They're thrilled to be able to wash all the comforters and bedspreads at home. Unlike many, these are folks who will definitely fill the washer to maximum capacity with nearly every load. We'll see how durable it is under those conditions. And I stressed the importance of always, always, always leaving both the washer door and detergent drawer open a few inches to prevent mold/mildew.
Their prior pair was a 15-year old Whirlpool DD set they received as a wedding gift. I warned them going into the purchase not to expect the same lifespan from the LGs. CR reports great reliability for recent LG washers. Let's hope they're still speaking to me in five years! 
This post was last edited 03/26/2013 at 06:39 | ||
| Post# 668468 , Reply# 77 3/26/2013 at 09:12 (4,046 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
powrbruh | ||
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Post# 668480 , Reply# 78 3/26/2013 at 09:48 (4,046 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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powrbruh: Almost identically, I've purchased 9 washers (but only 7 dryers) in the past 26 years! None of mine have been returned, I just get antsy for a new machine every few years. I've never worn one out, so I have no idea what their useable lifespan would have been. I usually pass the used machines onto someone who needs a washer or washer/dryer pair. So, as odd as it sounds, I never make a purchase with the machine's longevity in mind. You're right to purchase the Speed Queen pair if you're in it for the long haul.
I'm surprised the LG doesn't have some sort of "Water Plus" feature---I know their top-loaders, do; although I understand you can only trigger it after the machine has sensed, filled and begins agitation, which would be annoying. It's not something you can set at the beginning of the cycle, as I can with my Frigidaire front-loader. I've seen the Speed Queens at my local LG/Whirlpool/SQ dealer and they definitely look brawnier than other washers. If SQ's provided more cycle options---like lengthening the wash time for my super-stained loads of kitchen whites---and an internal heater / sanitize feature, I'd consider getting a pair, myself! I did point out the SQ front-loaders to my friends, and talked about their commercial-build quality, but they saw the capacity of the LG 8000's and that was that, LOL! I have to say I was impressed with how quiet the LG was spinning that huge load of denims, and they really like the fact that the dryer finishes well before the washer. They can fold and put away a load before the next one is ready for the dryer. No more backed-up loads of wet wash waiting for the dryer. | ||
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Post# 668490 , Reply# 79 3/26/2013 at 10:33 (4,046 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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I agree with Eugene on the lack of certain features on the SQ FLs. A soil level switch would be nice. An automatic (warm) prewash function, if one's washing items with protein stain so you don't have to start a warm wash, cancel it midway through the cycle and start over again on hot. A heater for hot washes so you don't have to start an empty hot wash, cancel, load items and start another hot wash with the tub preheated. All that is doable but I'm just spoiled by my fully-automatic washer...
Of course, the SQ is sturdier than the LG. Here are some take-them-with-a-grain-of-salt reviews of the two washers: www.washerdryerinfo.com/ratings.h... www.washerdryerinfo.com/products/... | ||
| Post# 668549 , Reply# 80 3/26/2013 at 16:48 (4,045 days old) by Huebschman (Quebec, CA) | ||
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To Powrbruh... Still considering getting an LG! I decided not to get an LG flatscreen just reading about your ordeal. They might make great TV's... but I just couldn't. Thanks for sharing your story. Consumers almost always get a fair treatment. Too bad they have to fight the way you did to get there. | ||
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Post# 668655 , Reply# 83 3/27/2013 at 06:25 (4,045 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I've always thought a washer can get by with one or two complete cycles; they simply have to be versatile.
Case in point: The Normal cycle on my Frigidaire Immersion Care top-loader. The agitation time ranges from 8 to 60 minutes. You have your choice of a water-saving multiple spray rinse or a deep rinse. The final spin can be as brief as 2 minutes or as long as 12. (Unfortunately, the deal-breaker is that the choice of water temperature ranges from tap-cold to lukewarm.) This is my issue with Speed Queen: No options, no choices. I don't care if it's built to last 50 years, I will be frustrated with the inability to so much as add an extra half hour of wash time without going back to the machine and resetting it manually. Powrbruh, I understand your desire to buy a dependable machine for the long haul. While I change washers fairly frequently, my only car is a 19-1/2 year old Geo Prizm (a rebadged Toyota Corolla) with 257,000 miles on it which I will continue to drive until the wheels fall off. But I predict your boredom threshold with the SQ will be reached very quickly. | ||
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Post# 668701 , Reply# 85 3/27/2013 at 12:19 (4,045 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Wow, that was an unexpected turn of events! The 8000's have been getting great reviews, and I hope you like them. Front-loaders have been my "daily drivers" since 1986, so I've forgotten how different it seemed compared to growing up with a top-loader.
I think you're going to have a ball playing with all the cool features on the 8000s! Don't expect to see water in the tub, just saturated clothes. It's odd, but it works. You'll probably want to use the extra rinse option consistently if you have skin sensitivity ssues. And by all means, try the Sanitary cycle for loads of stained whites. You'll be amazed at the results. The Speed Queens are built like tanks, and I respect Alliance for standing up against the cheap plastic machines of the world (like my Frigidaire front-loader---which I love, by the way), but you've stepped straight into a machine with huge capacity (not that you'll always use it, but it's nice to have when you need it) and an encyclopedic array of features. Congratulations! This post was last edited 03/27/2013 at 17:24 | ||
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Post# 668706 , Reply# 87 3/27/2013 at 12:59 (4,045 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Post# 668731 , Reply# 88 3/27/2013 at 15:25 (4,044 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Lack Of Cycle Options | ||
| Post# 668769 , Reply# 89 3/27/2013 at 19:28 (4,044 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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Post# 671655 , Reply# 91 4/9/2013 at 17:35 (4,031 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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A very handsome set! Glad you like them, and do keep us posted as you put the washer through its paces. Hope the pair prove themselves a reliable purchase.
Sorry to hear about the damage to your dryer and stair railings. Maybe the delivery guys will be a little more careful with the replacement dryer. | ||
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Post# 671656 , Reply# 92 4/9/2013 at 17:38 (4,031 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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