Thread Number: 45571
Self cleaning ovens with hidden bake element |
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Post# 667045   3/19/2013 at 12:25 (4,027 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Though I think this article is poppycock, there is an element that rings of truth.
One I think, why would manufacturers build something that you shouldn't use, then I think, because consumers demand it, and if it causes more repairs--all the better. I am remembering the Corvair. Having just had my first self-cleaner with hidden bake element delivered this last Saturday I ask: any problems with the hidden bake element burning out more often? We had a GE range from 1979 until 1993, no repairs ever, self-cleaned about ever two or three months. Maytag range, Self-cleaned about the same amount every two to three months, had to replace the exposed bake element every three or four years. Any more than usual repairs experienced by the members her with this type of range? RCD, this is a good time to give your two cents. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Iheartmaytag's LINK This post was last edited 03/19/2013 at 12:49 |
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Post# 667047 , Reply# 1   3/19/2013 at 12:34 (4,027 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 667049 , Reply# 2   3/19/2013 at 12:36 (4,027 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 667050 , Reply# 3   3/19/2013 at 12:48 (4,027 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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I have only used my oven twice since Saturday, but I notice the broil element and the convection fan comes on during pre-heat. Once the oven is up to temp, the convection fan shuts off and I don't notice the broil element.
Preheat time to 375 was 12 minutes on Sunday when I baked biscuits. It took about 18 minutes to get to 425 when I baked cornbread. |
Post# 667056 , Reply# 5   3/19/2013 at 13:48 (4,027 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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In the city we have a 2002 Whirlpool Gold self-cleaner with the hidden bake element and we've never had any trouble with it so far... For a 10-year old modern appliance that is a miracle... LOL
The oven in town gets very gentle use, however. We use the self-clean cycle no more than once a year, believe it or not! The REAL baking gets done down in Ogden in the 56 turquoise GE (and I dutifully scrub it out each and every time I use it!) |
Post# 667057 , Reply# 6   3/19/2013 at 14:07 (4,027 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)   |   | |
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Recent family experience with a 27-inch double GE convection oven would lend me to think that the article is not off-base at all.
My parent's house was built in 1987 and came new to us with a 27-inch GE in wall oven with microwave above it. My Mom bakes and roasts a lot, especially on weekends and when my sister and I were at home. At about the 10-11 year mark on the original GE, the bake element burned out, and I replaced it in a matter of minutes - easy enough. That element lasted about another 10-11 years and it burned out around 2008/2009, which I replaced again, but this sparked the mood to replace the unit. My Mom had wanted double ovens since we had a wonderfully successful 1977 GE 27-inch unit in our house in Denver. That was not a top of the line unit, with the top oven self-cleaning but the lower one not. I think this was very common for the 1970s however. We decided to make the cabinet modifications to fit the slightly taller GE units, and Mom bought herself the absolute best model GE offered. She has always bought upper MOL, and decided to treat herself. Again, her model is the top of the line --- last time I looked it was still on GE's website as current, maybe six months ago. I never liked the hidden bake element idea due to heat build-up, and slowness of preheats, but I didn't say much during the shopping process. As all our GE oven appliances, the broil elements do come on in these units to speed preheating, and they are used at a low output level to maintain oven heat. Preheating though is a ridiculously slow process even with the broiler, especially for the non-convection lower oven. They look nice and uncluttered with no exposed elements, but I would not buy one of these for myself, ever. My freestanding GE range will pre-heat in less than half the time Mom's fastest smaller oven. The unit has an internal fan to cool itself due to the enclosed elements. The whole surrounding cabinet gets warm, VERY warm during prolonged use or cleaning but it didn't with the original '87 GE. Sometimes those fans are on for 2+ hours after a period of long use. Close inspection on these when we got them yielded a "I won't be replacing these elements" statement from me, as it looks like the whole unit would have to come out to access the elements. If that is the case, its ridiculously stupid. In addition, my mother, a very accomplished baker and chef, cannot find a zone in the top oven that doesn't either burn the bottoms of baked goods and even some meats, or burn the tops. Cookies baked in my 2003 GE Spectra with exposed element are much more evenly baked, and un-burned as compared to countless, countless experiments made by Mom to find the right zone or rack position and the right thermostat calibration to make the ovens acceptable. Ever try a take and bake pizza in one of these? They suck. My oven nicely browns the lower crust of a fresh pizza. In order to do that in Mom's, it will dry-out or burn the tops before it browns the bottom, unless you move the pizza to the lowest rack setting. That get it away from the effects of the broil element, but is then too close to the bottom of the oven. We had none of these problems with any of the previous GEs. We haven't had any self-cleaning problems yet, but I am so dissappointed for her, after more than 20 years of wanting a double oven, that I'd love to see a failure in this POS unit so I could buy her an MOL Whirlpool which at last check still had exposed elements. They spent over $2600 on that oven set, and I'd say it is a barely passable success. I don't these ovens do anywhere near the job in heat management and distribution that the older GEs did, and I would not be at all surprised if this shortens the life of the elements. I sold the '87 GE oven set on Craigslist for $100 to a family who was really glad to get it. I'm not sure I'd be willing to sell this current oven without telling the prospective buyer that they are lousy units. This post was last edited 03/19/2013 at 14:23 |
Post# 667073 , Reply# 7   3/19/2013 at 16:28 (4,027 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)   |   | |
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I have seen issues with the hidden bake elements. Longer preheat times are common. They cannot run the bake element all the time, glowing red as it will damage the oven. So, the bake elements are pulsed. I've seen crazing of the inner oven liner finish and changing the element can be quite the pill. Most wall ovens with hidden bake elements do indeed need to come out as the elements are changed from the back. There are ranges where you have to remove the side panel (usually requiring removal of the main top first to reach a few hidden screws. Cute, huh?) and the element slides out from the side.
That being said, I've been dealing with them for a while. Maytag was really getting into them after the Amana line was folded in. Now, Kitchenaid and Jenn Air really has the hi stiff one for the design, ESP in wall ovens. I've only had to change two hidden elements in wall ovens and about the same in ranges. We'll see how it goes after the products in the field get a few more years in them. The most common thing I see die after a self clean cycle is the oven sensor (or thermistor). I use the self clean feature on my JennAir convection range (JES series) regularly and have had no issues. I have never been a huge fan of foil on the oven floor. It can fuse to the floor with a hidden element but I feel it can reflect heat goofy sometimes and fool the oven sensor or make contact with the exposed element and cause a possible hot spot on it and result on element failure. IMHO. RCD |
Post# 667120 , Reply# 8   3/19/2013 at 20:13 (4,027 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )   |   | |
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Tried this in the 50s, the result...Rusted out oven bottoms!!!Thumbs down on this idea! |
Post# 667133 , Reply# 10   3/19/2013 at 20:45 (4,027 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Has a Bosch Wall Oven and Range with the hidden element.
I HATE BOTH THOSE OVENS. You can't get a true preheat, the Preheat does take forever, and it's been serviced 5 times and will not hold a accurate Temperature. I am a Chef and at 57 years old, I have cooked on many Home Ranges. My Sears Kenmore I bought in 2004 was next up from the BOL. The Cooktop Heats(Open Elements, hate the Glass Tops) Beautiful and the Oven Bakes like a Dream I paid $299.00. Oh Yeah, back to the sealed element. Don't Like Them. For the remaining years of my life, I will buy Vintage Ranges should I need one. I should pick up a few more ranges while they are around. Lord knows I have enough Dishwashers and Washers to last the rest of my Life. LOL |
Post# 667140 , Reply# 11   3/19/2013 at 21:23 (4,027 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Although gas ovens typically have the oven burner under the floor of the oven, there's plenty of air movement going on to spread the heat around, and of course a gas flame probably isn't as hot as an electric heating element going full blast. So it makes sense that modern mfg's are having to pulse the heating element to avoid damage. I imagine that they are also running the convection fan during pre-heat for the same goal.
Not a problem here. The 70's vintage GE P-7 wall oven heats to 375F in about five minutes. It's only a 24 inch wide model, with plenty of good insulation, but it does a fairly good job, with relatively even heating for things like pizza, bread, or cookies. For convection, a Cuisinart toaster oven. IMHO, concealed heating elements are a great idea for dishwashers (ala Bosch). But maybe not so hot (no pun intended) for electric ovens. |
Post# 667182 , Reply# 12   3/20/2013 at 07:21 (4,026 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Thanks for the feedback from everyone. So far I haven't had any complaints from the performance of the oven, or cooktop (which is ceramic glass). I baked pork chops last night and was not dissatisfied. I am going to bake cookies tonight so that will be a test. Will be doing bread and cinnamon rolls this weekend. I think being a convection oven will help with some of the cons. The preheat times are not that far off from the Maytag that it replaced.
So far I do like the range and it was not cheap so I hope everything will be ok. I am glad I opted for the extended warranty never-the-less; so I have five years that it's their problem. I also have 30 days to return and exchange the range if there is something I don't like. I am just going to have to quit fretting and enjoy it. This post was last edited 03/20/2013 at 08:47 |
Post# 667197 , Reply# 14   3/20/2013 at 08:51 (4,026 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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The new range is white on White and I actually don't think it shows dirt as badly as the previous range that was black on black. The black range showed every finger print, every speck of dust, every splatter etc.
Nice thing I like about the white top is you can tell which burner is hot. On the black top you had the indicator light that told you the surface was hot but not which burner. The white burners turn yellow when they are hot and back to white when they cool. This way you know which one is hot, of course, best practice is to place your hand above the burner and feel for heat before you touch. |
Post# 667332 , Reply# 16   3/20/2013 at 19:37 (4,026 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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We have a 2008 Electrolux Icon 30" dual fuel range with hidden bake element. I use the self-clean option no more than twice a year.
So far, there have been no problems with this system. I just now mixed up some banana bread batter and pre-heating to 350 took seven whole minutes. The oven was ready before I was. |
Post# 667403 , Reply# 17   3/21/2013 at 07:33 (4,025 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Made a batch of Oatmeal Scotchies last night. Started the oven before I began mixing. I didn't time it, but the temp was ready before I was. I baked four racks (four dozen cookies) on convection bake.
They did take longer than the 10-12 minutes the recipe called for about 18 minutes, but was not out of line for being a larger batch. The Maytag it replaced took about 15. This oven auto corrects and sets the temp 25 degrees cooler on convect, I used to set the oven at the temp called for and didn't correct for convection cooking, so this could be a difference in the speed. Cookies were perfectly and evenly browned. I noticed after I was finished that I set the oven for Convection single rack baking instead of Convection multi-rack bake. I am not sure if it makes any difference, but there are two buttons that differentiate the two not sure what they do differently. All ovens are different, so it is going to take getting used to so far I don't dislike it. Mitch, I will post pics when I get a chance. **I had to add this** The range originally only came with 3 racks. I was a bit disappointed because my previous range had four racks so you could do the entire batch of cookies at once. (I bake a lot of cookies for kid's school). The lady at Sear's told me when I bought it to try my old racks and if they didn't fit to call her. I called her Saturday after the range was delivered and told her they would not fit. She said that she would look for another rack, but was afraid the cost would stop my heart. When I got home yesterday a brand new, original equipment made by GE rack was sitting on the front porch. She had ordered it for me at no charge. Now is that customer service or what? This post was last edited 03/21/2013 at 08:35 |
Post# 667406 , Reply# 18   3/21/2013 at 07:53 (4,025 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 667412 , Reply# 19   3/21/2013 at 08:13 (4,025 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)   |   | |
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I have a Sears convection range. There are 2 options - convection bake and convection roast. On convection bake, the entered temperature is the temperature selected and the convection element on the back wall and fan operate. On convection roast, the entered temperature is lowered automatically by 25 degrees and the element on the bottom and fan operate. The lowest temperature that can be entered is 325 on convection roast.
Gary |
Post# 667429 , Reply# 21   3/21/2013 at 11:16 (4,025 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)   |   | |
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Just remember that because it says 'preheated' doesn't mean it really is. The oven sensor will say 'I've reached, say, 350' but the actual metal oven cavity is still coming up to that temp. In the business, we let the oven actually cycle about 2-4 times before finally checking temps for a more accurate reading. I've noticed that the hidden bake element units will actually signal preheated about 25-50 or thereabouts below the desired temp then slowly coast up to it.
RCD |
Post# 667432 , Reply# 22   3/21/2013 at 11:26 (4,025 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Drew makes a good point. Typically for most stuff (pizzas and such) I just wait until the P-7 lower element cycles off, which takes about five minutes. I keep a good oven thermometer hanging from the broil element (never use broil) and check that as well. But just because the thermometer says "375" and the bottom element has cycled off, doesn't mean that all parts of the oven are up to temp. For baking bread or cakes I'd probably also wait until the element had cycled on and off a few more times before loading the oven with product. For frozen pizza, or a tray of fish sticks, who cares?
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Post# 667483 , Reply# 25   3/21/2013 at 15:59 (4,025 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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4:41 350 degrees |
Post# 667484 , Reply# 26   3/21/2013 at 16:02 (4,025 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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Interior showing the floor--plus it is one of the few times it is sort of clean :) |
Post# 667624 , Reply# 27   3/22/2013 at 11:20 (4,024 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)   |   | |
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Seems to be a contradiction to have a self-cleaning oven & never use (and yes, I'm way behind on cleaning the oven in my dad's range; mom refused to use the very feature she'd prided herself on buying a new range for in 1982 & by 2006 had gone through one more to get that one that is there now!) at least according to what I've read in the article, while the feedback in terms of comments are the usual variety of agreement, disagreement, support, non-support, like & dislike...
My gas range I merely used the pre-set 3 hours for to get a fair job & only wonder if setting it to the "Hi" setting to obtain 4 hours would have made a difference in a cleaner oven? ("Lo" makes a 2 hour cleaning, of which w/ a little more use of the oven & more frequent use of the S/C feature would break the same results, though my GE P-& electric way back in the days of my apt., set to similarity would really have beaten it...!) -- Dave |
Post# 667643 , Reply# 28   3/22/2013 at 13:36 (4,024 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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I've been following this thread with some interest. I have a KitchenAid Convection range that is about 10 years old. It has an exposed bake element. I was unaware that some ovens will reduce the set temp if you are using the convection mode, I wonder if mine is like that.
I have a few decent data gathering instruments so last night I ran a time to temp. I set the oven to 350 F standard Bake cycle. The oven signaled being at temp in 8:57. I attached a photo of the meter. I'll export the data and create a better graph to share. I'll also run a convection mode test and overlay that too. It would be really interesting to see one of the hidden element ovens time to temp graphed like this. I'll have to see if I know of one I can test. I'll probably post results in a new thread so as not to hijack. |
Post# 667662 , Reply# 29   3/22/2013 at 14:53 (4,024 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 667728 , Reply# 30   3/22/2013 at 20:57 (4,024 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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My Farberware convection oven's use & care manual greatly ephasizes the necessity of reducing the baking temperature in the recipe by 25F unless the temperature is 300F, like for chocolate pound cake. With computerized oven controls, this is done automatically. |
Post# 667740 , Reply# 32   3/22/2013 at 21:43 (4,024 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)   |   | |
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So what is the temperature fluctuation on that screen? It almost looks like 50 degrees |
Post# 667770 , Reply# 33   3/22/2013 at 23:00 (4,024 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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Jerrod,
Indeed there is a wide variation in measured temperature due to the hysteresis in the control. Its not quite 50 deg F but close. I wonder if the radiation from the bake and broil elements was influencing the thermocouple which I had dead center in the oven cavity. I plan to re run the test but with some foil radiation shields above and below the thermocouple. |
Post# 667876 , Reply# 35   3/23/2013 at 11:38 (4,023 days old) by magic_clean (Florida)   |   | |
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desirable to have a certain amount of temperature swing to achieve good browning results when baking and roasting. |
Post# 667880 , Reply# 36   3/23/2013 at 11:47 (4,023 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 669207 , Reply# 40   3/30/2013 at 11:58 (4,016 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Post# 669272 , Reply# 42   3/30/2013 at 20:30 (4,016 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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Down at the bottom center. |
Post# 669302 , Reply# 44   3/30/2013 at 21:58 (4,016 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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Looks better! |
Post# 669304 , Reply# 45   3/30/2013 at 22:01 (4,016 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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not good! The spots that look like rust is where the porcelain is pitted :( |
Post# 669305 , Reply# 46   3/30/2013 at 22:02 (4,016 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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with shiny racks! |
Post# 669479 , Reply# 51   3/31/2013 at 19:35 (4,015 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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And it performed flawlessly. From Cheesecake, to Carrot cake, Ham, sweet potatoes, hash brown casserole, hot rolls, and carrot souffle'. Did the carrot cake yesterday, and the cheese cake on Thuesday so it had time to age. Other than that it started at 7:00 this morning with the whole ham getting started at 325 convect roast.
Mixed the bread, and the carrot souffle' this at about 10:00 had prepped the casserole, sweet potatoes last night. Ham came out about 11:45 to sit covered while the oven got loaded with two racks of breads, bottom rack had the Hash brown casserole, sweet potatoes, and souffle'. Worked the stove top with Green beans, corn and potatoes to mash. Sliced the Ham, and sent the tray to the warming drawer, as the breads came out. Dinner was served at 1:00 straight up. Mitch, my Maytag oven got pitted and grazed and it wasn't a hidden element. My former GE never did that, but have always had to clean outside the gasket by hand. I will steam the oven tonight, just as a touch-up, actually survived all that cooking without a mess. No I can't believe it either. I actually didn't even boil over the candied sweet potatoes this time, and got the marshmellows perfectly browned. As for clean-up, The Kitchenaid performed beautifully. Thirteen place setting, with serving bowls, two of the baking dishes, Desert plates, glasses, coffee cups, coffee maker, flatware (A certifiable Bob Load). Everything clean and dried in under two hours. Final verdict, They are both keepers. |
Post# 669490 , Reply# 52   3/31/2013 at 20:04 (4,015 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 669518 , Reply# 54   3/31/2013 at 21:57 (4,015 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Post# 669520 , Reply# 55   3/31/2013 at 22:00 (4,015 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Post# 669524 , Reply# 56   3/31/2013 at 22:26 (4,015 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Post# 669525 , Reply# 57   3/31/2013 at 22:27 (4,015 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Post# 669579 , Reply# 59   4/1/2013 at 09:10 (4,014 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 669592 , Reply# 60   4/1/2013 at 09:37 (4,014 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Having only had it for two weeks I have not had much chance to use the warming drawer except yesterday.
It came in handy keeping things warm while others were baking, however, it is a little small to use for anything with any depth. The two front burners are multi-sized. The one on the left has two sizes and has a power boil feature that gets water going quickly. It is supposed to allow the temperature to go higher for a certain amount of time longer before the thermal limiter kicks in. The one on the right has three rings 13, 8, 6, and is certified to handle a pressure canner up to 100 lbs. Mrb--I wanted an induction burner too, but my checkbook said no as it was almost double the cost of this range. I am going get a counter top induction unit at a later date to use with my Iron cookware and deep frying, as you can precisely control the temp of the oil I've been told. I have been very happy with the performance so far. I was a little worried at first, but the more I use it, the more at ease I become. I always have used Cook's Smooth top cleaner, but this range was packaged with Crema Brite (I think that's how it was spelled). The cleaners are supposed to leave a protective coating that will help condition the top and prevent nasty spills from sticking. The black top left the house looking as good as it did the day it was new. So far the white top has cleaned up very well, but there haven't been any boil overs--Yet. Main thing with any smooth top, careful of sugary spills and acid spills. They will permanently damage the top. |
Post# 669597 , Reply# 61   4/1/2013 at 09:54 (4,014 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 669610 , Reply# 62   4/1/2013 at 10:43 (4,014 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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This is what I was told when purchasing as well. One reason for choosing this range over the Whirlpool sourced units (Maytag) was you have the option of High heat cleaning for severe messes. The aqua-lift units did not offer the high heat option.
I did the steam last night as a touch up hoping to prevent a massive cleaning. Let's see what happens the first time a cherry pie boils over. |
Post# 669646 , Reply# 63   4/1/2013 at 13:49 (4,014 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 669665 , Reply# 64   4/1/2013 at 14:50 (4,014 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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GE's steam clean cycle is much like the Whirlpool system. You pour a cup of distilled water in the well at the bottom of the oven. Set the Steam cycle and 30 minutes later it tells you to wipe oven. You wipe up the excess water on the floor and I basically dried the oven with a towel.
Like I said the oven wasn't too bad, but had some ham splatters etc that just curled up and wiped right off. The Aqua-lift system is similar but they have a propitiatory coating that is supposed to lift off the stains in the presence of water. They do not have the high heat option for bad stains. I felt this was a devolution of the self-clean process, but do like the ability to touch up without having to heat up the kitchen and use the electricity. |
Post# 669703 , Reply# 65   4/1/2013 at 17:29 (4,014 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)   |   | |
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I would think the steam would help a lot! Thanks for the recommendation on a stove top cleaner--will give that a try. |
Post# 673615 , Reply# 66   4/17/2013 at 22:59 (3,998 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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We made it through a holiday dinner, and I must say I love the new stove. Cooks perfectly, browns evenly, temperature is on point. Easy clean up.
I had my Maytag for 17 years and was never unhappy with it, however, the last few years it got to be a little hard to live with at times. But, the performance between the two is very noticeable , all in the GE's favor. Only major getting used to point is the surface controls. The multi size burners on the front use a split control for the unit, if you are not careful and pay close attention you can edge it from low on the smaller size to high on the larger sized surface unit. There is a click when it makes the jump, but If you don't pay attention, as I did not, you can end up with scorched Good Friday Salmon Patties. Did a batch of banana oatmeal cookies tonight, new recipe--next time I will cook a little longer. But did four racks at one time, all came out in about 15 minutes. Preheat time is a little slower as discussed, but is not a major show stopper. One thing I must definitively mention, the wonderful, understanding people on GE's website. They took all the questions that a slightly neurotic, OCD person that just spent a lot of money could come up with, and answered them all completely, honestly, and welcomed you to ask more. My hats off to them and Dear Donna at Sear's Towne West for a great buying experience. |