Thread Number: 45716
Electronic Controls, Bad Rap? |
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Post# 668805   3/27/2013 at 23:45 (4,018 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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It seems that I often read here on the forums about the undesirability of electronic controls as opposed to mechanical timers etc. But is it really the electronics that deserve the blame? Surely we can all admit that computer control can add some advantageous options to an appliance.
Properly designed and constructed electronic controls _should be_ far more reliable then anything mechanical in the long term. Solid state electronics don't wear out but they can be damaged by impulses etc if they aren't engineered correctly. Note I'm not saying that current appliance controls are properly designed... Today the case is often that costs have been slashed and quality has been cut to meet the target price. I believe cost cutting and poor design will also effect mechanical timers too. Will a mechanical timer made today still be hauling-the-mail in 50 years?? I don't think today's mechanicals will be as durable and overbuilt as those of the past. And its not a fault of the timer being mechanical, its that quality costs money and people don't buy for quality these days. With any appliance made today the control(s), be they electronic or mechanical, will likely be unavailable in 10-15 years. Perhaps some NOS parts will be available but control failure may doom the machine. I have a suspicion that mechanical timers built today will likely prove less easily serviceable then ones made in the past. In order to make things more inexpensively, assemblies are crimped, welded or bonded together. Using screws crews cost money and increases failures. While electronic controls do use components that are either proprietary or may have short End of Life availability, many of the components that fail an electronic control can be substituted with a different part to get the control running again. My opinion is that the electronic boards may be more repairable then a mechanical timer on down the road. To a large extent the considered non-repair ability and fear of electronics is due to the fact that electronic technology is not as well understood by many repair people. For most of us the mechanical parts are easy to see and figure out, electronics are more of a "black art". It reminds me a lot of how automotive mechanics took to fuel injection. Fuel injection is easier to diagnose and repair then a carburetor, you can do tests and actually isolate the failed part. A carburetor has to be torn down and rebuilt with the hope (fingers crossed) that the problem was fixed. Personally I'd much rather repair a FI system then a carburetor. For full disclosure my opinion of electronics is somewhat biased by having a background in the electronics field. I only throw this out there to offer a different viewpoint on current controls available in modern machines. I really believe that it is the cost cutting that will cause today's machines to be less long lived then their predecessors. This may spark some lively discussion, now where did I put my asbestos underwear?? |
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Post# 668806 , Reply# 1   3/27/2013 at 23:47 (4,018 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)   |   | |
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Our 1993 Whirlpool set has electronic controls and has never had a problem with them. But then again they have always been used in an indoor laundry room. If they were in a laundry area in a garage, I don't know how long they would last due to the heat and humidity that's out there. |
Post# 668809 , Reply# 3   3/28/2013 at 00:19 (4,018 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Electronics 'may be more repairable' but for the average buyer calling the average repairman the skill does not exist. Trouble with electronics in appliances seems they are under-engineered for the conditions, as above, heat and moisture. Another is that the marginal electronics are connected with no protection to marginal assemblies like wax motors, so when the assembly fails it kills the board.
Electronics also tend to be grossly overpriced for what they are. The board, components and fab -- all done in China -- can't possibly cost more than $20 and can't possibly be bought for under 5 times that. Electronic appliance boards are an engineered profit center for the vendor. They're designed to fail under any but optimal conditions, and the pricing is piracy. Other than my 1982 GE microwave I don't own any electronic appliances, and I don't want to. |
Post# 668842 , Reply# 5   3/28/2013 at 06:37 (4,018 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Things like car, jets and space shuttles are full of electronics and they are subjected to far more extreme conditions than those in a washer or dishwasher. As others have stated, the problem is the inferior quality of electronics used in home appliances. The cheap stuff has proved itself unable to handle vibration, heat, or humid/moist conditions. The board on my circa 2004 Frigidaire dishwasher had to be replaced three times in two years due to failures. The board on Smokey The Maytag (which replaced the Frigidaire) malfunctioned and caused the heating element to operate for hours at a time while the machine was off and nearly caught fire.
I agree: It's not electronics per se that suck. The problem is the inferior quality of the electronics being used in consumer goods. |
Post# 668854 , Reply# 7   3/28/2013 at 08:02 (4,018 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 668855 , Reply# 8   3/28/2013 at 08:03 (4,018 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Good thread topic Phil, problems with poor durability and expensive to repair electronic controls on appliances are a daily problem for us repair guys and you are very correct it should not be this way. We have the technology to build controls that would almost NEVER fail in the life of most home appliances. But manufacturers have usually taken the cheap way and have not had a strong desire to keep appliances out in the field repairable in many cases in barely 10 years.
Cheap membrane touch controls may make sense on $100 microwave ovens, but my objection comes in when they use the same level of construction on $1000, 2000, 3000 and up to nearly 10,000 dollar appliances that are built-in to your kitchens and laundry rooms.
Touch Membrane controls are very poor at best for durability, notice they are not used on cars, your computer and probably are unheard of in military equipment, LOL.
Phil the guy who started this thread is my younger brother and I think we should also see if we could get one of our older brothers [ Jerry ] to write something in this thread. Jerry is a Quality Control engineer with expertise in the electronics field. I know that I have certainly learned lots from all four of my brothers and Mother and Father as we are a very technical family, we always have plenty to talk about at dinner, LOL.
I do see some signs of progress in the major home appliance industry and electronics are certainly here to stay, consumers should keep up the pressure on manufacturers when they have problems and hopefully there will be more competition among manufacturers to build the best and most reliable product again. Some of you may remember the quality moves by most appliance manufacturers starting in the 60s and continuing through the 70s that were done in response to the many serious problems that major appliances had in the 50s 60s and 70s. Unfortunately by the time every thing was rolling along in the 80s and as reliability had improved so much the emphasis on building the most reliable appliance was put on the back burner. I do predict it will become a bigger issue sometime in the near future if enough consumers complain, CRs could help lead the way but I think they have lost much of their original mission of helping protect consumers from poor quality appliances. John |
Post# 668981 , Reply# 9   3/28/2013 at 23:55 (4,017 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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In most cases solid state electronics should be very impervious to both humidity and heat, provided it is within reason. As long as the components aren't too hot to touch, they will be fine. I have serviced a few solid state amplifiers that have melted to solder on the transistor pads, 60/40 solder melts at ~360 Deg F... The amps I repaired lived for years after the cooling issues were cured!
Humidity can cause horrible damage due to corrosion. Connectors and contacts, especially those with dissimilar metals can be problematic. Years ago we had a TOL Whirlpool dishwasher that was one of the early units with an electronic control. The card edge connector would corrode badly due to steam and condensation. The fingers on the board were soldered when it went through the wave solder machine. Several times I had to reflow the solder on the fingers and clean the connector to get the unit to run. I believe that John used to cut off the connector and actually solder the wires to the pads!! Ultimately I used a DeOxit grease from Caig Labs to eliminate the corrosion problem. A buddy of mine took that machine and it is still running today. Solid state electronics can be sensitive to overloads and impulses (surges) but good design will remove those risks. I find that many problems are blamed on surges and a lot of surge protectors are sold this way, the problem is likely blown out of proportion though. One example of how amazingly durable solid state electronics can be is the Voyager I spacecraft that was launched in 1977. 36 years later, after enduring a the stresses of launch and a lifetime of cold, we are still hearing from it as it is poised to leave our solar system. Of course the design cost of the space craft electronics and one of our modern FL washers is just slightly different... |
Post# 669032 , Reply# 11   3/29/2013 at 10:14 (4,017 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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Alr,
You raise a good point here with issues of complexity. One advantage of electronic control of a machine is that cycles are now just software. Anything the developer can dream up can be reality for more or less no extra cost. I like to call it "feature creep" they just keep adding and adding till the typical user is overwhelmed. Adding a cycle in a mechanical timer requires an entire redesign of the timer and is expensive, especially if the number of units sold is limited. Hopefully they at least can keep the user interface semi-intuitive or they will just cause problems for themselves. Of course our desire for complexity (or not) is highly personal. I have been considering a Huebsch commercial softmount front loader. They have an electronic control where the user can fully control the cycles for time, temp, speed, added rinses etc. Might take a while to figure it all out. But the versatility would be awesome! So would be the 9kw sump heater, Powerrrr! It reminds me a bit of Robert's PC controlled washer. Indeed aerospace electronics are robust, even those back in the 50's & 60's when solid state was still in its infancy and suffering from early development and fragility. They simply engineered VERY conservatively and with lots of redundancy for safety. The fact that Apollo 13 made it back after all it had to endure was testament to care they took in the design. Of course all that cost a lot of money and that surely won't happen in the commercial market. |
Post# 669270 , Reply# 16   3/30/2013 at 20:23 (4,015 days old) by optima (Cumbria England)   |   | |
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Post# 669447 , Reply# 17   3/31/2013 at 16:52 (4,014 days old) by philcobendixduo (San Jose)   |   | |
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My 1987 Kenmore "Limited Edition Electronic Fabric Care" washer and dryer are still going strong with never a problem with the electronic controls even with all the heat, moisture and vibration associated with the operation of washers and dryers.
My 1994 Maytag dishwasher - the same. No problems with the electronic controls. My 1987 GE Spacemaker over the the range microwave - no issues with electronic controls. I know from what I've read online that many of todays electronic controls are "under engineered" and use "cheap" parts that don't last. One would think that with the advances in computers and electronics, today's controls would be MORE reliable but such is not the case. Very sad. |
Post# 737809 , Reply# 21   2/26/2014 at 09:52 (3,683 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Appliances are still considered Durable Goods, and in fact many appliances are lasting and being kept longer than ever and they are diffidently not requiring as many repairs during their usable lifetimes.
Ben [don't take this personally ] the thing that makes appliances throw away appliances is when people throw away a 10-15 YO dryer that could be easily repaired because it squeaks, it gets very tiresome to hear your constant rants about lack of quality when the real problem is the appliance owners inability to get minor appliance problems addressed. John L. |
Post# 737847 , Reply# 23   2/26/2014 at 15:23 (3,682 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Of my older Miele washing machine and swore would hate fully electronic controlled machines, really quite fancy the Oko-Lavamat by AEG. It is simply streets ahead of the Miele in so many ways.
The fully electronic controls allow for much finer control of the motor and drum movements. This means instead of spins that cause the machine to bang and clang (the Miele) nearly 99.9% of the time the spins are well balanced and therefore silent. Great for late night laundering. Will agree with others electronic controls are only as good as the quality put into them. Miele for instance makes all their own motherboards for that reason. |
Post# 737853 , Reply# 24   2/26/2014 at 16:12 (3,682 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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And this also applies to the mechanical controls too. The wonderfully overbuilt timers of the past have performed admirably. But as they say never use "past performance to predict future trends", mechanical controls in today's machines are surely cost cut in the same manner as the electronics are.
Check back with me in 10-15 years to see how they did ;) |
Post# 737934 , Reply# 25   2/26/2014 at 21:34 (3,682 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Ben your GE Dryer Did Not Even Have Rollers, I would never trust the opinion of the guys that tried to scare you out of fixing your old dryer again.
It is fairly easy to check the condition of heaters, motor , idler pulley, etc when fixing a dryer, your wonderful [ I sold 2 SQ dryers and 1 FL and 2 TL SQs today ] new SQ dryer will have a failure in the first 7-15 years of use also, I hope you don't trash it also. |
Post# 737981 , Reply# 26   2/27/2014 at 06:43 (3,682 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 833766 , Reply# 30   7/25/2015 at 14:10 (3,168 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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I've always worried about when looking at a new appliance! I love my new Maytag dishwasher (now 13 mos old). When reading reviews, people LOVED the machine but here and there you would see "do not buy this dishwasher" control board failed just after a year of use, etc. So I'm always paranoid because the model I want usually is not mechanically controlled.....
In fact, every single appliance I have is computer controlled - WP over the range microwave from 2004 (still working) - WP 2004 dishwasher died in 2014 but from the motor, not from control board - WP Duet Dryer from 2005 (still works) - WP Duet washer from 2005 (still works) but control board replaced 2nd year - WP range from 2004 (still works) - Maytag dishwasher fro 2014 (still works) I watched this video on YouTube before I bought my Maytag hoping I would never experience this problem.... |
Post# 834013 , Reply# 32   7/27/2015 at 06:52 (3,167 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Mark, if it helps your luck at all with your new MT DW the veido you posted about repairing a MT DW was about one of the older MT designed and built DWs. WP scrapped that design and I can tell you as a tech that that MT design was the worst DW I have ever seen for control panel, board and door latch problems we ever saw in the last decade or so.
Your new MT DW is a completely different DW, this is where it is a shame that WP kept the MT name. We sell and install about two new MT DWs a week, no problems with any in the last few years yet.
John L. |
Post# 834122 , Reply# 33   7/27/2015 at 23:58 (3,166 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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thanks for that. Makes me feel better. Yea I thought that was an older model maytag in the video. The maytag I have is honestly the best dishwasher I have ever used and ironically it feels more solid than any dishwasher I've ever used. Hopefully the controls won't fail. I know this particular dishwasher I have doesn't have a vent at all, which is odd. So I wasn't sure if that would cause shortened life of the control board because of the heat and moisture.
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Post# 834153 , Reply# 34   7/28/2015 at 06:54 (3,166 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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