Thread Number: 46886
Is Whirlpool making COMMERCIAL belt drive washers?
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Post# 682637   6/5/2013 at 20:18 (3,949 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        

I have seen a few comments on here about Whirlpool making commercial quality belt driven washers....is this true? I suppose they wouldn't be any worse than GE commercial washers but still, shouldn't they just continue making direct drives for commercial laundry products? I don't understand why they would want to make people hate Whirlpool commercial washers as well? if this is true it sure won't be helping their reputation any!




Post# 682650 , Reply# 1   6/5/2013 at 21:25 (3,949 days old) by thefixer ()        

They still market commercial DD washers that meet 2007 energy standards. The new commercial line that meets 2013 standards are the new belt drive model. They also make consumer grade belt drives that they label as "commercial quality", whatever that means.



Post# 682665 , Reply# 2   6/5/2013 at 23:52 (3,949 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

If the "new" BD WP's aren't holding up in residental situations-how does WP expect it to hold up under commercial use?Did they beef up the commercial versions?If so,these would sure be nice to get for a heavy household user.

Post# 682710 , Reply# 3   6/6/2013 at 07:38 (3,949 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
New Belt Drive WP TL Washers

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In my Expert opinion I think it is far too early in the game to pronounce that the new line of WP BD TL washers are going to be excessively troublesome or short lived. WP has already sold MILLIONS of these machines over the last 3 plus years and yes those of us working on and selling new appliances have seen a few problems which does not seem unusual for any washer sold in such LARGE NUMBERS, and I have yet to see one trashed either by us or the huge appliance distributor near us [ I get to look over the hundred or so machines they pull out of homes every week to see if there is anything there we want ].

 

I think it is a good sign that WP is moving this machine into the Commercial lineup, many mainly residential machines never got this far. I remember going to many Maytag sales meetings and the MT reps telling us how good the Norgetags were and I would always say if they are so good why is there no Commercial Version ?, MT of coerce stuck with the DC Helical drive machines for commercial applications to the end.


Post# 682735 , Reply# 4   6/6/2013 at 10:32 (3,949 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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I work for Whirlpool Corporation, and this is my personal opinion.

I'm excited about these machines! They are already posted on the Home Depot website. We'll see how the Agi-Peller pans out!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Pulsator's LINK


Post# 682746 , Reply# 5   6/6/2013 at 11:59 (3,948 days old) by mtn1584 (USA)        
An "Agi-Peller?"...........................

You can call it an impeller, wash plate, agi-peller, and it still doesn't matter.....They DO NOT work!!!! A top load washer that doesn't use water is the most assinine product on the market today, especially in a commericial setting!!! I am a huge advocate of top load washers, but ones like SQ that use water to wash!! I think these along with the Duet Sport commercial models, although in huge production, are a colossol design failure!!
Mike


Post# 682763 , Reply# 6   6/6/2013 at 13:55 (3,948 days old) by mixfinder ()        
Agi-Peller

Jaime can you tell us more about an Agi-Peller since the description says its not an impeller.

Post# 682767 , Reply# 7   6/6/2013 at 14:19 (3,948 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
I work for Whirlpool Corporation, and this is my personal opinion.

I'm afraid I can't, there should be pictures of it eventually.


Post# 682775 , Reply# 8   6/6/2013 at 15:36 (3,948 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Illustration in the user guide linked @ Home Depot, the agi-thingie appears much akin to a RotoFlex.


Post# 682800 , Reply# 9   6/6/2013 at 18:58 (3,948 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        
Well...

I have a friend who's 2011 Kenmore belt drive is making a clunking noise when the spin cycle is coasting to a stop and its only ever been used in a single person household. Hes also always complaining about it constantly going off balance and making strange burning smells when the heavy duty cycle is used, not that he even uses that option very often. So 2 years of less than average use and its already wearing out!

I wont disagree that Maytag had many design flaws with some of their product lines but honestly my Maytag branded norgetag washer is 7 years old and I will admit it has had a few minor repairs but it is still going strong, and it has had ALLOT of use (some overloading) so i really don't understand why the reviews for these washers were so bad because my experience with this washer has been great except for the occasional crazy out of balance load. When it breaks i will most certainly be fixing it, no matter the cost. If it costs $800 for a basic top loading washer with rotary controls (Speed Queen/Huebsch) then what is the point in paying that much for something similar to what I already have? or $500 for a Whirlpool belt drive that will break in 5 years or less?! Besides, im not supporting that company after what they did to Maytag.


Post# 682806 , Reply# 10   6/6/2013 at 19:15 (3,948 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Post# 682816 , Reply# 11   6/6/2013 at 20:21 (3,948 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Interesting. I'm assuming this doesn't use the reverse rollover principle, wherein clothes bloom up the center and move toward the tub wall, as do regular impeller machines.

Jamie-- Do you know the particulars of how the load moves in an agi-peller machine?


Post# 682826 , Reply# 12   6/6/2013 at 21:47 (3,948 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Looks kinda similar to GE's HydroWave system with the raised center on the impeller to hold fabric softener. I assume the pole in the center of this unit avoids loading issues - like people dumping everything in at once instead of layering items around the impeller with its center remaining visible. The pole automatically keeps items away from the middle of the impeller. Also, the agi does look a little like in a deep-fill washer. Looks old-school but it ain't. Some (many?) people would likely be put off using a washer with an obvious wash plate in it. The center pole helps in that regard, too.

BTW, read a GE commercial washer manual today and it said that the softener must be added towards the end of the main wash as it won't dispense during the spray rinsing. *eww*


Post# 682882 , Reply# 13   6/7/2013 at 07:06 (3,948 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Loading

mrb627's profile picture
And seeing the way that some people load machines at the laundromat, I wouldn't expect these to fair very well. Sure hope I am proven wrong...

Malcolm


Post# 682889 , Reply# 14   6/7/2013 at 07:31 (3,948 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Overloading the New BD WP Built Washers

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That is the wonderful thing about new electronically controlled washers, They will protect them selves, the motors do a great job of detecting strain and overload and react accordingly, the load just won't get washed and maybe the user can take the detergent covered stuff out and put it in the dryer, LOL.


Post# 682915 , Reply# 15   6/7/2013 at 10:15 (3,948 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Great

mrb627's profile picture
Then the user can blame the machine, demand a refund, and go somewhere else to wash clothes. Finally, the laundromat will go belly up.

Malcolm


Post# 682920 , Reply# 16   6/7/2013 at 10:46 (3,947 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

joe_in_philly's profile picture
I agree with what Alexander and Malcolm said. I imagine the extended wash plate will force a user to properly load the washer, as they won't know to drop the clothes around the wash plate, avoiding covering the center. But from what I have seen in Laundromats, people often overload the machines.

Don't HE top-load washers take a long time to complete a cycle? It seems to me performance will suffer as long wash cycles are not compatible with a typical Laundromat. Although, in a Laundromat setting, perhaps the machines can dispense with time consuming load sensing, assuming that every load is a full load.



Post# 682973 , Reply# 17   6/7/2013 at 18:40 (3,947 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I suppose they save time by only doing spray rinses. No way to add softener to the washer.

Post# 682992 , Reply# 18   6/7/2013 at 20:58 (3,947 days old) by neptune ()        

The appliance company I work for, We just recently replaced 2 front load washing machines in a condominium and they went back to the traditional top load machines and they were direct drive top loaders. I don't understand why they would switch the true commercial/ coin op machines to these belt drive ones I personally feel as though that's a bad idea on whirlpool's behalf but that's just my personal opinion. In my opinion these residential machines that claim "Commercial Quality or Technology" is just a gimmick. the true "Commercial Quality" machines were the old Maytag Top Loaders.

Post# 683000 , Reply# 19   6/7/2013 at 22:01 (3,947 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        

pix wonders if the agipeller will make it to the next round of whirlpool top loaders for residential use

could not find the agipeller pics


Post# 683001 , Reply# 20   6/7/2013 at 22:01 (3,947 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        
pixx

pic 2

Post# 683029 , Reply# 21   6/8/2013 at 07:45 (3,947 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Funny

mrb627's profile picture
They are kinda Maytag looking...

Malcolm


Post# 683035 , Reply# 22   6/8/2013 at 08:45 (3,947 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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There is a pic of the agipeller in the manual.

Post# 683036 , Reply# 23   6/8/2013 at 08:53 (3,947 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I was able to retrieve a picture from the manual.



Post# 683037 , Reply# 24   6/8/2013 at 08:55 (3,947 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
New Commerica Whirlpool Belt Drive Washers

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Manufacturers can justifiability use the term Commercial Quality on the control panels of residential machines if they are using basically the same machines in commercial applications.

 

Whirlpool is going to STOP building DD washers and they SHOULD, the design is now over 30 YEARS OLD and while it is probably one of the best TL washers designs ever it just does not spin fast enough, uses too many raw materials to build and the newer design is much easier to repair and will likely be MORE RELIABLE in the normal life of a washer 12-30 years.


Post# 683038 , Reply# 25   6/8/2013 at 09:00 (3,947 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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The spin speed hasn't been much improved. It went up from 640rpm to 700rpm. That's even slower than the TOL Amana's did and the SQ's do nowadays. GE sold machines with 800rpm years ago and the GE Harmony spins at 1010rpm. I don't think Whirlpool changed the world with the slightly more rpm's.

Post# 683042 , Reply# 26   6/8/2013 at 09:41 (3,947 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
A tech site I follow has reports of several ongoing issues with the VMW design.


Post# 683051 , Reply# 27   6/8/2013 at 12:31 (3,946 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        
Lets face it...

These machines do not turn the clothes over the way they should so clothes end up coming out fairly dingy, they do not rinse the way they should which makes your skin itch with leftover detergent and lastly the spin speed is not very fast. I have done loads of laundry in a belt drive washer and it still took almost an hour to dry in the matching dryer while Washing in my norgetag takes the same amount of drying time for only 620 max rpm spinning and the rinsing is far better than spray rinses. I know most of you don't like norgetags but i would assume they work similar to a direct drive, doing full rinses and all. I know we can't avoid spray rinses because energy standards are forcing the manufacturers to do so but Whirlpool did not do a very good job creating a washer that could rinse out the clothes well with spray rinsing partly due to the fill flume if you ask me. And don't even get me started on the fill times because last time i did a load in a belt drive washer it took almost 20 minutes to fill so if its taking that long to fill imagine the lack of water that gets dispersed through the clothes with spray rinsing!!!??? If my friends Kenmore belt drive clunks and smells of burning after 2 years of not even average use what does that tell you about how they would handle 25 loads a day at a laundromat!!! the motors in these will be burnt up so fast in a laundromat that it would make your head spin. @combo52 im sorry if what we are saying about these washers is offensive to you but in all truth they can't currently handle 2 years of home use so they are not meant for laundromats. Guess laundromat owners will just have to sit around and wait until Whirlpool ''works out all the bugs'' while there laundromat has only 5 working machines after less than a year of owning them, at least that's how i see it turning out. If i ever see one in a laundromat i will be leaving and finding somewhere that has Maytag's, Speed Queens or direct drive Whirlpools.

Post# 683079 , Reply# 28   6/8/2013 at 15:09 (3,946 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
"If i ever see one in a laundromat ..."

foraloysius's profile picture
You'll have to use it and give us a full report!! ;-)

Post# 683101 , Reply# 29   6/8/2013 at 18:03 (3,946 days old) by repair-man (Pittsburgh PA)        
from my experience

I see far too many of these machines (VMW) considering the short time that they have been sold. Some problems are a simple fix. For example I have seen many that will not start the cycle because a small article of clothing is stuck between the basket and the tub. As was said earlier the motor is sensitive enough that even the smallest item (i.e. baby sock) will stop everything. Also the mode shifter (switches between spin and agitate) are also very weak. Not a major repair but unacceptable to the degree that it occurs. It's the cheapest built looking part imaginable. But the worst is a board failure. Not nearly as common as the other two problems but just too expensive. The customers response is almost always the same. And this I believe is the most telling part of the story. The customer usually decides that it is not worth putting a ~$200 part in a $400 - $500 washer that they never really liked anyway. So I have seen a few go to the trash already. Ed

Post# 683106 , Reply# 30   6/8/2013 at 18:21 (3,946 days old) by repair-man (Pittsburgh PA)        
also

I have to ask why it is thought that Whirlpool should stop making the direct drive because the design is now over 30 years old. And as much as considering the raw materials used in building a product should we not also consider the impact of building 2, 3, or even 4 or more products just to equal the same time of using ONE well built product ? This argument applies to all new appliances. As I have said here before, you will never convince me that I am helping the environment by buying a new energy star refrigerator that has an 8 to 10 year avg life when the manufacturing, warehousing, merchandising, delivery, removal and disposal cycle is repeated so frequently.

Post# 683109 , Reply# 31   6/8/2013 at 18:38 (3,946 days old) by repair-man (Pittsburgh PA)        
just one more though

I am not absolutely deeming the new VMW machines a total failure. Any new design can have a few unforeseen weak spots that can be changed to build a much better machine. BUT, Whirlpool will need to make performance changes as well. I only fix the things so I don't pretend to be an expert on what people look for in an appliance. But my job does put me in a position to have a lot of conversations with customers about their appliances. My overall experience is that customers do not like lock down lids and cycles that waste time. Even if it isn't true customers equate cycle time with energy use and people are busy and want to do laundry fast. I can honestly say I almost never have a customer tell me that they bought a particular machine to save water.

Post# 683110 , Reply# 32   6/8/2013 at 18:44 (3,946 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        
Were onto another topic now but...

I get what your saying. Why do they call modern day appliances energy efficient and all that when they don't last more than a few years? they're certainly not helping the landfills much! sure they use less water and power but after a few years you have to get a new one and put the other one out to the curb, so wouldn't it be worth it if washers still used around 630 kwh a year and filled up the full way on both wash and rinse cycles if it meant longer life? then people would be able to buy a washer that costs around $500 and have it last at least 10-15 years. I think that is much more cost efficient in the long run.

Post# 683360 , Reply# 33   6/10/2013 at 11:30 (3,944 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        
agipeller

wonders if this washer works liek the regular agitator models with 90 ans 180 degree arcs or 360 arch wash action i would buy a agipella and test in my wtw4850 o see if it works there as that wash is auto water level as well

Post# 683362 , Reply# 34   6/10/2013 at 11:39 (3,944 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I'm not too sure if it would fit. To me it looks like the bottom is part of the agipeller, the reason for it's name. Perhaps someone can enlighten us, who has seen this machine in real?

Post# 683456 , Reply# 35   6/10/2013 at 22:10 (3,944 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

sad thing is that here were i live i have not seen ANY direct drive washers being sold and i think the motor is going out on ours (lets hope not).i dont wanna replace it with soemthing grabagy like this, theses are to weak, sensitive, and defnelty delicte to handle. seems like one unbalenced load got destroy the whole washer.
which reminds me:





Post# 683854 , Reply# 36   6/14/2013 at 10:24 (3,941 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        
VMW failure

honestly i have a wtw8450 that the auto load sensing one
the sensing works 80% of the time any small load will wash @ extra small since the washer does not detect it well unless one or 2 heavy items are in the tub ...
as for that i agree with NorgeCheff clothes do come out digy 2 times if it does not get a long wash cycle or if the water level is to low for roll over .... ....
a low water level and agitator will not wash clothes an maybe the agipeller design will be better for this washer and will make the close move in bloom action so @ least there is roll over.

the fact that there are no real live images of the agipeller design makes me wonder
the whirlpool digital library only have control panel and washer images for the new models hmmmmmn

as for spin speed 700 rpm does not do much and since the tubs in those machines are porcelain coated i think 700 is the max i can spin without causing it to crack or sum-thing .... the price os stainless steel is cheap i mean whirlpool cant just make all their drums stainless steel these washers should have stainless steel baskets and 900 rpm spins with the wash plate variant having spin speeds of 1000rpm
also whirlpool need to change their agitator designs the one on the cabrio was kinda nice and futuristic and it looks like that agitator was suited to auto load sensing washers like what i have


Post# 683976 , Reply# 37   6/15/2013 at 11:17 (3,939 days old) by camMURRAY22 (Savannah,Georgia)        
New Commercial Whirlpool Belt-Drive Washers

From my point of view, they should have rebuilt them by using the demestic belt-drive design from the early 80s.

Post# 683977 , Reply# 38   6/15/2013 at 11:31 (3,939 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

Maybe a petition to bring back the old direct drives and belt drives? no wait only the old belt drives.

Post# 684396 , Reply# 39   6/18/2013 at 09:34 (3,937 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        
agipeller

agipeller

Post# 684398 , Reply# 40   6/18/2013 at 09:40 (3,937 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        

credit for the pic mickeyd
his thread www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...


Post# 684497 , Reply# 41   6/18/2013 at 18:13 (3,936 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        
How ineffective looking

So they are going from poor cleaning and dingy whites in their regular belt drives to soaking action that won't do anything unless the machine was severely overloaded then it MIGHT clean the clothes at the bottom of the basket. Obviously the agitator is meant to just brush by the clothes, who knows if it would even send a current or a ripple through the water!!!?? This is a worse design then previous Frigidaire top loaders with the straight vane agitator and its indexing tub.

Post# 685925 , Reply# 42   6/26/2013 at 23:44 (3,928 days old) by WP-Dude22 (Trinidad and Tobago )        
agipeller

peller

imo this could work if the bottom of the agi-peller was perforated like the regular wash plates with holes and if the 3 main baffles were wider coming towards the outer rim and a bit more pronounced.

also the center pole is a bit to fat for my liking take up space it should have been a smaller diameter with a fabric softener dispenser

last but not least the center pole should have little fins that are designed to push clothes up since an agi-peller would operate like an impeller and push clothes up the center and down the edges near the tub the fins should be in a way that they are compact but still be able to help pull clothes up the center while giving them a little scrubbing love.

btw what happen to the thread this image was originally posted in


Post# 685949 , Reply# 43   6/27/2013 at 05:58 (3,928 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Agipeler

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I have a funny feeling that this might actually work and I bet WP has already tested it, LOL, after building a couple 100 million Top Loading washers WP has never really made anything that didn't wash well.


Post# 795241 , Reply# 44   11/21/2014 at 10:36 (3,415 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
That AgiPeller looks like my FlexCare one piece that I put in my HydoWave. Interesting.

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