Thread Number: 47008
How to lubricate washing machine motor carbon brushes
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Post# 683932   6/14/2013 at 22:11 (3,965 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        

When my washer starts and stops it makes a squeaking metallic noise and seems to be a little loud while running and i think it may need lubricating. How would i lubricate it and what lubricant would i use? I can see carbon dust coating the motor pulley so I know this must be a problem with the carbon brushes. I could just replace the motor but that would be $80 and id rather just fix whatever is wrong.




Post# 683938 , Reply# 1   6/15/2013 at 00:10 (3,965 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Sounds like the brushes in your motor-two possible things-dirty communtator and the brushes need to be "seated"This is done by getting a seating-cleaning stone from a motor shop.While the motor is running gently touch the stone to the communtator on both sides of both brushes.Are the brushes new or old-if old-replace them and seat them as above.This did well for me when I fixed motors in power tools and vacuum cleaners.Just watch for moving parts and don't get shocked.The seating stones are non-conductive.Usually white or grey in color.

Post# 683951 , Reply# 2   6/15/2013 at 01:18 (3,965 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        
I got the motor out of the washer...now what?

Not sure that i know how to open the motor up to do this, don't want to break it! this is a picture of the motor- Maytag model 21001950.

Post# 683960 , Reply# 3   6/15/2013 at 06:11 (3,965 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

There wouldn't be "brushes" in this motor-its an induction motor-maybe the contacts on its start switch are dirty or bad.You do have a sealed motor-you cannot take it apart without damaging it.Is there a start cap associated with this motor-if so replace it.If there is no start cap see if the start switch assembly on the back of the motor can be removed and replaced with a new one.I don't see a start cap value or indication on your motors nameplate.Maybe someone else on this forum who is famaliar with Maytag parts can help.They can tell if the motor has a start cap.If you are seeing "dust" about the motor pulley it may mean the front bearing is going---you will need a new motor if thats the case.I have the same problem with a WP washer-the front bearing in its motor just locked up and seized,looking for another motor-its sealed like yours.I really liked the old style motors you could take apart and repair or fix things like blown bearings.Wait a minute--silly me-the dust you see on the pulley end of the motor is rubbere dust from the belt.You see this on belt driven devices that have had a lot of use.-And the Maytag washer uses the belt sort of like a "clutch" when in spin mode.It slips slightly when going to spin-so there would be some belt dust.

Post# 683966 , Reply# 4   6/15/2013 at 07:28 (3,965 days old) by thefixer ()        

These are AC induction motors, there are no brushes as there is no direct electrical connection to the rotor.



Post# 683979 , Reply# 5   6/15/2013 at 12:01 (3,965 days old) by thefixer ()        

By the way, there are induction motors that utilize brushes and slip rings but these are "wound rotor" type. The ones in washing machines are the "squirrel cage" type that have no physical outside electrical connection to the rotor.



Post# 683992 , Reply# 6   6/15/2013 at 13:24 (3,965 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Black Dust Around the Motor Pully of Norge-Tag

combo52's profile picture

Is from the belt, The belt is not used as a clutch on Norge-Tag style washers, first of all the pump is driven by the same belt and if the belt was running slowly like on a real MT the machine would not pump out the water. Secondly the cheap plastic motor pulley that Maytag introduced as an improvement on NT models would be lucky to last for two loads before it would melt and destroy itself and the belt, LOL.


Post# 683993 , Reply# 7   6/15/2013 at 13:25 (3,965 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Black Dust Around the Motor Pully of Norge-Tag

combo52's profile picture

Is from the belt, The belt is not used as a clutch on Norge-Tag style washers, first of all the pump is driven by the same belt and if the belt was running slowly like on a real MT the machine would not pump out the water. Secondly the cheap plastic motor pulley that Maytag introduced as an improvement on NT models would be lucky to last for two loads before it would melt and destroy itself and the belt, LOL.


Post# 683998 , Reply# 8   6/15/2013 at 14:37 (3,965 days old) by norgechef (Saint George New Brunswick )        
The black dust

Is coming out around the bottom of the motor like black lint and it was very hard to wash off my hands, like soot from a wood stove.

Post# 684043 , Reply# 9   6/16/2013 at 02:12 (3,964 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
Never "lubricate" brushes. First off, carbon dust IS a lubricant. Second, if you oil it it turns into a conductive mush that shorts the commutator. And third, as above that motor has no brushes.

Post# 684058 , Reply# 10   6/16/2013 at 08:05 (3,964 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Black Dust Around the Motor Pully of Norge-Tag

combo52's profile picture

It could be caused by a dry and worn out lower motor bearing but, if the bearing is that dry and worn it will not run long you need another motor or better yet a MOL or better 10 year old DD washer.


Post# 684343 , Reply# 11   6/18/2013 at 00:55 (3,962 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

"Wound Rotor" motors are not found in appliances-they are usually 3Ph and 5Hp on up.Due to the influx of VFD devices today-the wound rotor motor is losing out-fewer are being used.The last wound rotor motors I saw were Crocker Wheeler 700hp ones used on an older Carrier centrifical HVAC chiller.It ran from 2500V 3ph-the rotor voltage-or "secondary" voltage as the motor builders call it for wound rotor-was 600V.That fed a load bank of very large resistors-used for starting-once the motor and load is at full speed-the rotor circuit is shorted-then the motor is working as a conventional induction motor.
Back to the washer motor problem--is the equipment in the washer operating OK before condeming the motor?Like the transmission can be turned freely,pump turns feely,spin drive turns freely by hand?
Seems like the plastic motor pulley could be causing more friction on the belt-thus more belt dust?Never seen the plastic pulley until now.what a joke!Guess its on the washer and parts suppliers-the pulley wears out-forcing you to buy a new motor and pulley!
Is the motor shaft hard to turn by hand-if so the bearings could be shot.Or if there is noise,or gritty feel when you rotate the motor shaft by hand-bearings shot.Sadly with a sealed motor such as shown-you have to buy a new motor.


Post# 684408 , Reply# 12   6/18/2013 at 11:03 (3,962 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
PLASTIC MOTOR PULLEY

combo52's profile picture

MT actually does make you buy a whole new motor if the plastic pulley fails [ which happens often when the crappy water pump bearing fails and starts to seize ], good news is our parts distributor found a pt# for just the pulley and we get the replacement pumps for these washers from Exact rather than WP  at about 1/4 the cost.

 

There are only about four or five repairs that make any sense on Norge-Tag washers at this point in time, replacing a bad inlet valve, a bad water pump, belt and motor pulley and maybe a bad lid switch, other than these items the washers usually get replaced and crushed.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO combo52's LINK

Post# 684542 , Reply# 13   6/19/2013 at 00:40 (3,961 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Link didn't work-guess for the infamous NorgeTag washers-they are crusher bait unless you can do simple fixes to them.Glad the pulleys can be a separate part.Kinda of a stupid idea-plastic pulleys.The belt could last longer than the pulleys!Sounds like the pumps in these washers frequently fail.

Post# 685015 , Reply# 14   6/22/2013 at 03:23 (3,958 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
"Wound Rotor Motors"

I agree that these are usually large and 3 phase. I have, however, seen (and still own one of them) two small (less than 1 hp) motors of this type for single-phase operation. They were used where high starting torque was required. The example which I own was, IIRC, built in the USA by the 'Wagner' company. I will try to find it, and will report the details from the data plate when I do.

Manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to 'seal' anything IMHO, all parts of all appliances should be 'user serviceable' subject to the user having the capability.

All best

Dave T


Post# 685025 , Reply# 15   6/22/2013 at 06:33 (3,958 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

It would be logical that small WR motors were built-but not common.Would like to see a picture of it-what peice of equipment does it power?
I can agree-too-don't think manufactuers-- should no longer be allowed to make sealed motors-they should be repairable-you can easily disassemble them to replace bearings,start switches,and rewind the stators.There is a fellow here at work that used to work at a different transmitter site---where the staff there-including him-used to rebuild 20Hp 3Ph GE induction motors used in the main transmitter blower.These older motors here are completely rebuildable.


Post# 685414 , Reply# 16   6/24/2013 at 17:23 (3,955 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Tolivac

(Trying not to 'Hijack' the thread)

Been away the last two days, not had time to look for anything.
The motor which I still have came to me unmounted, so no idea of it's original function, the other was the winding motor for a theatre (theater ;) ) fire safety curtain.
Will try to take/upload photographs when I dig out the motor. (I think I know where it is.... The problem is getting to it at the back of the garage)

All best

Dave T


Post# 685491 , Reply# 17   6/25/2013 at 00:39 (3,955 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Dave-can understand-I have stuff buried in the back of the rooms in my house-mostly vacuum cleaners and books.Take your time in getting the motor.A theater curtain motor-here about those on the "Film Tech" site.-back in the days when theaters still used curtains for cinemas to cover the screen when it wasn't in use-and for showmanship.At one time folks didn't like looking at a blank screen-and the curtains helped keep it clean.The curtain motors I see on the Film tech site were standard induction ones.I was so used to seeing high HP wound rotor motors in supply catalogs and never saw reference to smaller ones.The small ones I had seen were used on Merry-Go-Rounds-carrosels.5Hp and 60Hp.5 for small merry go rounds(portable) and 60 hp for the really large stationary park ones.When we mention portable rides-ones that traveled with portable amusements and the stationary ones were built inside a carrousuel building and weren't moved.

Post# 685767 , Reply# 18   6/26/2013 at 12:23 (3,954 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Tolivac

Re: 'Fire Safety Curtain' Not sure of the regulations 'Stateside', but here Theatres (as opposed to cinemas) had (and I think still do) to have an asbestos fireproof curtain which could be lowered across the entire width and height of the Proscenium. these weigh from around half a ton in small theatres to 3 or 4 tons in a large auditorium.

The details from my motor data plate:-

Wagner Electric Corporation St Louis U.S.A.

Frame 57 Model XL7 B???

1/8 H.P. 1440 RPM 1 Ph 50 Cycles

400V 338A 200V 169A

Cont Rating 40 'C No. 1822054

The '?'s represent characters I can no longer read

There is obviously a decimal point missing from the current values ;)

Yes... It really IS only rated at one eighth horsepower.

I believe there is a centrifugal mechanism to lift the brushes when it gets up to speed.

Photos (if this works!!)

1) General view

2) 'Money Shot'


Post# 685768 , Reply# 19   6/26/2013 at 12:30 (3,954 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
'Money Shot'

I have no idea where the term 'money shot' originates, but this is probably the nearest thing for this post.. ;)

Sorry about the shadowing..... Photographed in natural (and rare!!) sunlight :)

All best

Dave T


Post# 685860 , Reply# 20   6/26/2013 at 18:07 (3,953 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Old Motor

combo52's profile picture

It looks like what we called a repulsion-induction A/C motor, my 1937 Frigidaire room air-condition has a similar motor that drives the compressor with two 1/2" wide drive belts.


Post# 685933 , Reply# 21   6/27/2013 at 00:11 (3,953 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The excellent pictures-sunlight is the BEST light-yes,beleive we have a repulsion-induction motor.It starts as a brush type motor for high start torque-then as the brushes are lifted-then its an induction motor.Remember years ago Delta used a repulsion induction motor as an option in their "Unisaw" table saw.Was 2Hp.Typically table saws aren't considered a high start torque device.Now the "Unisaw" dosen't have the option of a Repulsion induction motor.Usually were used in high start torque applications-compressors as a good example-both for refrigeration and air compressors.The theater curtain drive is another example-to get the heavy gear drive and curtain moving.Yes,for "Live" theaters the fire curtains are still used.They are no longer made from asbestos.Synthetic materials makes them lighter in weight.And if the curtain is deployed-in some theaters the curtain is dampened with water as it comes down.At least for USA.
The amp ratings on the motor sound strange for a 1/8 HP motor-probably they meant 1.69A and 3.38A for the voltages used.


Post# 686029 , Reply# 22   6/27/2013 at 15:52 (3,952 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Fire curtains

At all the theatres I've worked in, the curtain 'drencher' is optional under separate control. It lives up to it's name, and would be rather messy if used after every performance. ;)

Will have to read up on 'repulsion motors'.... I have heard the term before, somewhere in the distant past... They are not, however, mentioned in 'Hughes Electrical Technology', a standard teaching and reference work this side of the 'pond'....

Still sorry to have hijacked the thread....

Dave T


Post# 686101 , Reply# 23   6/27/2013 at 23:52 (3,952 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Curtain drenchers would only be used in an emergency-an actual fire.For routine use--would be rather messy.Might feel good on a hot summer day!Repulsion motors weren't as common as others.Nowadays I don't see them being made anymore.

Post# 688258 , Reply# 24   7/9/2013 at 15:49 (3,940 days old) by bertrum ()        
lubricating carbon brushes!

Quite honestly if you are asking questions about how to lubricate carbon brushes its time to call in professional help.

Post# 688389 , Reply# 25   7/10/2013 at 06:07 (3,940 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

You don't "lubricate" motor brushes-they by nature of the material they are made from-self lubricating.The carbon,graphite and trace metallic elements in the brush material make them lubricate themselves.The formulas for brush materils will vary by maker,and the size or HP of the motor.And are the brushes being used on slip rings(AC devices) instead of communtators.


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