Thread Number: 4709
Help- Need new washer- front or top?? recommendations?
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Post# 105066   1/22/2006 at 15:49 (6,640 days old) by adh0621 ()        

Our 7 year old $700 Maytag started leaking water from the bottom. The repairman said the transmission is gone and took everything with it- $700 to fix, so its totaled.

I was going to go with another top loader with just few features ($500 model range) since I dont consider myself a laundry specialist, but a clerk at best buy said not to go with a top loader b/c I wash the rubber backed bath mats at home (2x/month). My husband says to stop washing them, Im not sure why he thinks this is an option. So is it true that you cannot wash those mats in top loaders? The front loader reviews for anything under $1000 look pretty bad. The clerk suggested an LG- which is still over $1000.

I have a young child so I do a lot of laundry, but rarely use anything but the normal or delicate cycle. Once in a great while I will use extra rinse and sometimes the soak only option. But I am really concerned about spending a ton of money for another "disposable" appliance like the Maytag.

Help and recommendations sought- please!





Post# 105067 , Reply# 1   1/22/2006 at 16:04 (6,640 days old) by brettsomers ()        

rubber-backed bath mats wash well (i think) if LOOSELY loaded in a TL. if cost is a major consideration by all means get the top loader. assuming you dont give a hoot about water savings, the big advantage of a front loader is the ability to wash large comforters and pillows, and even bigger rugs. if you often wash very large loads, you would like a machine like the whirlpool duet or the equivalent kenmore. hold a TON. most of the current front loaders use electronic controls that i THINK will prove over time to be less reliable than the traditional timers. im afraid the days of washers lasting 20 years are a thing of the past. thats why members of this group love vintage machines. if you bought a 70s/80s maytag in good condition with new belts it could very well last LONGER than a brand new machine. i hear good things about the kenmore (by whirlpool) top loaders also. good luck

Post# 105084 , Reply# 2   1/22/2006 at 18:41 (6,640 days old) by kenhe4t ()        
How much do you wash

If you do alot of laundry get a frontloader. preferbly a kenmore (whirlpool made) if you do at least 5 loads a week it will save you about 4,780 gallons of water. and about 87 bucks in energy. I work sell laundry and trust me once you get one you will never go back. if you need a small one i recomend the HE2 . 3.3 cuft. spins at 1100 rpm uses 170 killwatts a year. great washer at 800 bucks.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO kenhe4t's LINK


Post# 105103 , Reply# 3   1/22/2006 at 20:17 (6,640 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I think the BB salesman had it backwards. Dissentagrating rubber back rugs will clog and front loader's drain pump faster than a top loader.

Post# 105123 , Reply# 4   1/22/2006 at 23:22 (6,640 days old) by norgeman ()        
washer recomends

My first choice when we have to but a new washer is going to be Frigidaire or WhiteWestinghouse because they have really come up on their quality and longevity as Electrolux made them put steel gears back in the trans. My dad bought a Frigidaire top load washer back in 2003 and has had nothing but praise for it with no trouble what so ever. He paid around $379 for it a middle of the line machine. either that or go with their new front loader 3.5 cubic inch drum runs around $769 dollars. Or you could go to Sears and get the Frigidaire built machine that is identical but with the Kenmore name on it for like $669 dollars some where close to these prices anyway. Second choice would be a LG.Tromm and yes they are a bit pricey but have heard some really good things about them and have looked at them. They have a really big drum and can hold alot of clothes and yes front loaders are gentle on rubber backed rugs and clothes last longer. So there you have it my picks for washer, or you could go to a repair shop and see if they have any fixed used washers for sale and ask if they have a Norge or Norge product like Montgomery Wards under the Norge/Fedders built machines. These machines are super tough with a 3/4 hp. motor a commercial transmission and a 20lb. capacity it will do a wonderful job at getting clothes clean. With the 202 degree
turbo sweep agitator, with the burpalator feature for colecting lint. Happy Hunting and good luck. DanF.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO norgeman's LINK


Post# 105132 , Reply# 5   1/23/2006 at 02:24 (6,640 days old) by mistervain ()        

PROS -- Front loaders are good for the large capacity and are fun to watch. The high spin speeds and extra rinses are great to get rid of soapy water, and cut down on drying time. The best part I believe is that the clothes retain their colors longer and don't get worn out as quickly when continually washed by a FL.

CONS -- FL's are expensive, and can't adequately wash single large objects like comforters or do very small loads. Also, be warned: the FL's for home use do not use enough water (especially the LG brand) so if you have clothing odors, you will have to pre-treat them with a bar of soap. The cycle times are also about double that of a TL.

My advice would be go with a TL, like the Frigidaire, which is very attractive and moderately priced. Old-fashioned, when it comes to laundry, is best, at least until the manufacturers start using common sense instead of gadgetry with the FL's features.



Post# 105139 , Reply# 6   1/23/2006 at 05:04 (6,640 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
Something

Whether you can't decide between TL and FL, choice "in the middle"
I prompt you to see more about High Efficiency TL washers!
Their efficiency is comparable with a FL one. I speaking about Whirlpool/Kenmore Calypso washer or New Maytag Neptune TL washer.
They both do not have the agitator (although they have a vertical drum with top loading), so they allow you to load bulky items and very large loads, but they consume less water and energy than any traditional TL washer and they are accomplishing with the "energy label"
On this website you wuold have found many people disagree with them, but others agreeing with them too.
Now it's up to you to decide... have a good purchase with them if you have to buy a new washer!
GoodBye
Diomede
Here you are the Kenmore Elite laundry (Calypso washer)


CLICK HERE TO GO TO vivalalavatrice's LINK


Post# 105141 , Reply# 7   1/23/2006 at 05:07 (6,640 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
...and the Maytag

Here you can find some information about another HE TL washer...

CLICK HERE TO GO TO vivalalavatrice's LINK


Post# 105142 , Reply# 8   1/23/2006 at 05:16 (6,640 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I am a TL fan-I pretty much buy BD KN and WP machines-If I were to buy new -Speed Queen tradional TL machine.For me I don't beleive FL machines are worth it.Too expensive,too long a cycle,and reheating the water WASTES energy rather than saving it.I know of a few people that tried Duets and returned them-they went back to their TL machines-Were unhappy with the cleaning and rinsing abilities of the FL machine.Another I know of is unhappy with her FL Maytag Neptune.she even asked me if I wanted to buy it-she has had several service calls on it.

Post# 105225 , Reply# 9   1/23/2006 at 15:30 (6,639 days old) by adh0621 ()        

Wow- amazing feedback! Quite a range of opinons too.

I think I will stay away from the TL no-agitators. In my research, those seems to be largely disliked.

Frigidaire and kenmores (by whirlpool) TL seems to come up consistantly. You think if I got one of those and only washed 1-2 mats at a time it would last? I dont care about preserving the mats, its more finding a machine thats transmission wont die from them.

Im still suprised bathmats have taken over my washing machine search but I am definately not taking them to a commerical laundrymat as my husband most recently suggested (there is not enough time in the day as it is without hanging out at laundrymats!)

I *could* spring for a FL, but Im now worried about all this talk of not being able to do small loads or the clothes smelling. I have a two year old and they are messy! I dont want to spend my days pretreating his clothes!



Post# 105242 , Reply# 10   1/23/2006 at 17:06 (6,639 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Euro FL machines

Hi adh0621,

I've got a Euro FL machine, and I dont seem to experience any of the issues, that people find with the large US FL.

I can wash one towel, or rug, without any issues, the machine always spins as it should. It takes me 50 minutes to do a heated cycle to 60deg C for grimey clothes, and the stains and mess always come out.

Some of the european machines can be reprogrammed to provide a high rinse. I never pretreat stains anymore, with gardening clothes, I run them on a 50deg wash with a 1.30 min soak period and everything is always clean.

I was a TL fanatic, untill I got a FL machine and was willing to open my mind and experiement. Now I'll never go back to a TL.

If you do get a FL machine, you'll need to be prepared to relearn some of your washing habits, but once you get the hang of it, you'll be happy with the results.


Post# 105274 , Reply# 11   1/23/2006 at 19:44 (6,639 days old) by jasonl (Cookeville, TN)        
Fisher & Paykel?

Look into Fisher and Paykel. They wash like a normal top loader but they spin at 1010rpm, giving more water extraction. They also run on a DC motor so it uses less electricity than a WP top loader.

Post# 105308 , Reply# 12   1/23/2006 at 21:26 (6,639 days old) by wiskybill (Canton, Ohio)        
FL vs. TL

My 2cents

At this point, I personally would buy another front loader. I bought one in 1999 and it is still going strong at my daughter's home. She has 2 kids, husband, and uses it almost daily.

As front loaders go for home use, I don't necessarily agree that bigger is better. I think those in the 3.1 to 3.5 range and with less complex controls are going to prove to be more reliable in the long run. I think that they are more flexible in what you can put in them safely and do a good job cleaning when loaded properly and with proper use of soap, softner, bleach, etc. I would probably look at Frigidaire, Kenmore, Whirlpool, and SpeedQueen.

As top loaders go, they have been around a long time and will be for a little while. Most of them will do a good job for you. From all that I've read posted here, it seems that Frigidaires and Kenmores have the best value for the money. Sears always has something on sale.

In general,
1. consider buying from a long time local dealer, they will price match and tend to be more concerned about their reputation if there is a problem
2. look for the least complex controls - do you really need 101 combinations?
3. TL - look at large capacity, FL - medium cap
4. Don't overload either one

One more thing, there have been enough endorsements here of Tide Coldwater, that I will have to try it. I grew up old school(hot water and bleach) but I like to try new things.

Just some of my thoughts.
Bill...


Post# 105332 , Reply# 13   1/23/2006 at 22:29 (6,639 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I've been using front-loaders for years. I now own a 2003 FL Frigidaire, and while it uses less water, I have no problems with clothing odors or washing bed comforters or very small loads. I regularly wash rubber-backed rugs and bathmats and I find the backing lasts longer than it used to when I used top-loaders.

I like FL machines because of the water/energy savings, the excellent cleaning results and the fast spin speed, which cuts down on dryer time.

However, they are more expensive. In the end, either a TL or FL washer will get your laundry clean. If you're more comfortable with a TL, go for it. If you go with a Frigidaire TL, go for their top-of-the-line machine with the 'dual-action' agitator. Better cleaning results than their lower models with a plain agitator.

Since we're a curious bunch, let us know what you wind up getting. Happy shopping!


Post# 105341 , Reply# 14   1/23/2006 at 22:38 (6,639 days old) by frontloadfan (Wellfleet, Ma.)        
Maybe Not All Comments On the Money

People have given some excellent advise. There are a couple of comments that might not be so great. One posters stated:

CONS -- FL's are expensive, and can't adequately wash single large objects like comforters or do very small loads. Also, be warned: the FL's for home use do not use enough water (especially the LG brand) so if you have clothing odors, you will have to pre-treat them with a bar of soap. The cycle times are also about double that of a TL.

Granted, FL are expensive; that can be considered true. "they can't adequately wash single large objects like comforters" There is no truth to this statement. I did have a Frigidaire 3.1 cu. ft. front loader and it did a great job with a full size comforter. I now have the Kitchenaid front loader and it can do a great job with a king size comforter! The truth of the matter is that front loaders do a far better job of washing comforters than top loaders.

Maybe the person was thinking that if you tried to wash one pillow? That might be problem, but to wash one comforter, is not a problem at all!

Regarding the cycle time being double for a FL compared to a top loader, that is a myth! My machine has a Rapid cycle that can do a load in 30 minutes! The normal casual is only 40 minutes! What comes into play is that people are paying in many cases paying $1,000 plus for a front loader. For that they expect the extended cycles. A regular load and normal casual will be perfectly fine and have the clothes washed in 40 minutes. You have some whites you really want white, then you can use a cycle that will take over an hour. You want to santize, well then you are looking close to two hours!



Regarding clothing smells, many front loaders have high level washes and/or rinses available if this is a concern. However, there have been million of front loaders sold that do not offer these functions and most fl owners seem very happy. Go to some other bulletin boards and you will see that LG owners are among the most satisfied owners.

One other issue someone brought up was that the larger front loaders are less reliable than the smaller front loaders. I have not seen any data to suggest that.

Back to the original poster, I think maybe the salesperson was urging you to get a front loader for washing your rubber backed mats in order to avoid damaging your mats as much. The front loader will be much gentler on them than a top loader. If you opt to go with a top loader (and if you are on a budget, I don't blame you), you might want to consider the Speed Queen. They sound like they are the most durable basic top loader you can get.

If you opt to go for a front loader, place the new GE front loader on your list to check out. They have the mega size (3.7) and the heater and tons of cycles too. They list for $900, but you can get one for about $800 on sale.


Post# 105353 , Reply# 15   1/24/2006 at 00:05 (6,639 days old) by mistervain ()        

Frontloadfan, where have you seen a front loader with "high level washes and rinses" as you stated? I have yet to see one in the American market. All of them are "energy star," which defeats the purpose of washing clothes. My shirts always smell of underarm unless pretreated.

I disagree about the comforters also. They will easily fit into a FL, but a gallon or 2 of water per fill is not going to clean an entire thick comforter.

How can a comforter be washed when it's rolling around inside with dry patches?

The cycle times are indeed very long. What FL washer is this that you are talking about with all these great features -- because I want one!

Someone else mentioned the Maytags and the Calypsos. I recommend you stay far, far away from those, with all their problems and class-action lawsuits!

Again, TL's are the safest bet in my opinion, if you want your clothes clean and odor-free. I'd rather wear something with stains than something that smells.


Post# 105361 , Reply# 16   1/24/2006 at 02:05 (6,639 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
"Frontloadfan, where have you seen a front loader with "high level washes and rinses" as you stated? I have yet to see one in the American market. All of them are "energy star," which defeats the purpose of washing clothes. My shirts always smell of underarm unless pretreated."

Miele in particular offers higher water levels for certain cycles (like delicates). The original Maytag Neptune series offers considerably higher water levels than later engineered brands.

"I disagree about the comforters also. They will easily fit into a FL, but a gallon or 2 of water per fill is not going to clean an entire thick comforter. "

You misunderstand how a FL uses water. A FL will add more water as the load absorbs it. It is not a fixed amount, however, on average, about 5 gallons is used for the wash part of the cycle. "A gallon or two" is not at all even close to the truth.

"How can a comforter be washed when it's rolling around inside with dry patches?"

It doesn't do that. As I have already stated, the washer will add more water as the load absorbs it. One can usually choose a longer cycle with a difficult to wet item so that it gets thoroughly soaked.

"The cycle times are indeed very long. What FL washer is this that you are talking about with all these great features -- because I want one! "

There are many on the market today.

"Someone else mentioned the Maytags and the Calypsos. I recommend you stay far, far away from those, with all their problems and class-action lawsuits! "

I have a Neptune 7500. It had several major repairs under extended warranty, but since then it's been peforming very well and very reliably. It gets king size comforters spotless.

"Again, TL's are the safest bet in my opinion, if you want your clothes clean and odor-free. I'd rather wear something with stains than something that smells."

My Neptune gets my clothes very clean, cleaner than most people seem to get their clothes with their top loaders. It gets rid of stains and odors. While I treasure vintage top loader washers, it is simply not true that front loaders in general perform less well than top loaders in general.

A real laundry fan appreciates the strengths of each design.


Post# 105366 , Reply# 17   1/24/2006 at 03:27 (6,639 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

In a way its like vacuum cleaners-upright vs canister-An ideal laundry setup would probably have BOTH types of washers.Some of the folks in Applianceville have the space and budget.If the person has a washer at present-if you want to try a new design-I wouldn't let the delivorymen haul away your old machine just yet-you may want to fall back to it in case you are unhappy with the newer one.At some point I would like to consider both types of machines.

Post# 105368 , Reply# 18   1/24/2006 at 04:13 (6,639 days old) by mistervain ()        

Someone has a lot of time on their hands to identify and disagree with every single line I wrote. To each one his or her own opinion -- LIGHTEN UP.

Post# 105395 , Reply# 19   1/24/2006 at 10:32 (6,638 days old) by rayjay (Carteret, New Jersey)        
Top Loader/Front Loader

I have used both machines, and like both. I curently have and LG and like it. I wash heavy down comforters in it and have not experienced and dry spots when the cycle was done. The comforter came out clean and fresh. I also was dirty smelly white socks from my son and they come out very clean.

Post# 105400 , Reply# 20   1/24/2006 at 12:29 (6,638 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        

I too have used both TL and FL and they both have their merits. I own an h-axis TL which is essentially the same as a FL for capacity and wash action. I have to say that there are times when I have a shed load of washing to do that I would trade it for a large TL with a short cycle. At the end of the day, the majority of the laundry I do is more to do with freshening up (towels, workshirts etc) They aren't dirty in the sense that they have discernable 'stains'. A TL with short cycle would suit me but I do not have the luxury of space to accomodate one (at the moment). My Mum has had a typical euro FL since 1981. She went from being a 'dyed in the wool' Hoover twin tub user, sceptical of the cleaning ability of an automatic washing machine. She tells me that from the very first use, she was converted. She goes on to say that in 25 years, she has only used the prewash about 3 times, never soaks anything and only pretreats stains like red wine, tomato sauce with a quick blast of Vanish/Shout spray. She has never had cause to complain about rinsing ability and, like me, said that the only time she has ever had to re-rinse a load is when she has overdosed detergent. As for wear and tear on clothes, I am amazed that anyone could have reason to say that a FL is more inclined to cause wear/tear/pilling etc than any other wash action. In my experience, this is simply not the case.

I am constantly perplexed by the number of problems that US users of FL find with these machines. I understand that capacity and cycle times are a major factor with the tendancy to stick with a TL. What I do not understand are the issues with rinsing and cleaning ability, moulding, unpleasant odours being left on washed clothes etc. Is there something missing in your HE detergents? Are the programmes not tested correctly in research and development stages?

With all of the problems that I read about on here, occuring with your FL's, I wouldn't buy one either!! What I don't understand is why you are experiencing them. Are there fundemental design differences in the two machines?

It is a shame that they seem to have gotten off to such a poor start in the USA - here in the UK at least, we have been using them since about the beginning of the 1970's and although they have morphed into the most amazing pieces of equipment compared to their early counterparts, I hope that you guys don't have to wait a similar length of time to appreciate that although they use a fraction of the water and take longer, they are every bit as good at cleaning, rinsing and fabric care and far more energy efficient than a water guzzling large capacity TL.

(I would still trade my machine for a GE Harmony with window in the lid!)


Post# 105401 , Reply# 21   1/24/2006 at 13:13 (6,638 days old) by varenovator ()        
USA User Error!!

I suspect the big difference between USA experiences and European has to do with our unfortunate habit of demanding quick and easy. We throw whatever into the machine, pick a random cycle ('normal' sounds nice today), throw some powder in (maybe the right amount, in the right slot, maybe not) and turn it on. Cold water? Warm? Hot? I'm not supposed to worry about that - the machine knows what to do. Extra rinse? Takes too much time. If the 'normal' cycle takes more than 40 minutes, I'll use 'quick wash' for 30 minutes next time. The machine wobbles?? Call service (what's a level???) And then we complain about the performance.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that when you upsize a perfectly well behaved 6kg Euro FL into a 9 or 10kg US behemoth, physics catches up to you (I think someone somewhere did the g-force math for when you increase the diameter of a object spinning at 1000 rpm, and it wasn't pretty).


Post# 105403 , Reply# 22   1/24/2006 at 14:19 (6,638 days old) by rayjay (Carteret, New Jersey)        
Front Loaders/Top Loaders

Hoovermatic, I agree with you. As I said previously I have and LG fronloader, the one made for the USA and I also have an AEG Bella LAVAMAT from Germany which I bought 14 years ago. This machine also boils as most of the European machines do. I have to say I think both machines do a great job. In fact, I have to say, that for cleaning, rinsing and fabric care, the front loader does it best.

Post# 105408 , Reply# 23   1/24/2006 at 14:55 (6,638 days old) by brettsomers ()        
front loaders

my best friend bought a whirlpool duet (at my suggestion) and the standard non-matching whirlpool dryer. i suspected the regular standard dryer would work for him and save him money. i was right. he has had the duet for about two years and LOVES it. he has many blankets and comforters and has always had satisfactory results. i noticed the shockingly low water levels myself (i am a classic Maytag fan) at first and had my doubts. there was no need to worry. i once tossed an admittedly dirty pillow in with a load of whites. when i pulled the CLEAN pillow out i was convinced. i have washed HUGE loads; underwear, towels, tshirts, washcloths, socks. good results everytime. "sudsmaster" makes some very good points, esp about the variable water usage. btw, my friend uses REGULAR detergent!! i ADORE the elegance of a center-dial Maytag with its brawny perforated basket and the deliberate and unfailing action provided by the turquoise agitator. I CANNOT deny the front loaders merits.

Post# 105434 , Reply# 24   1/24/2006 at 17:16 (6,638 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
Don't believe everything the clerk at a store will tell you, washing bathmats in your Maytag top-loader had nothing to do with it's premature failure. Maytag has been plagued by these water problems for some time now and it simply boils down to poor quality construction on their part. As long as you don't load more than a couple in a top-loader, you should be just fine. It's best to dry these over the shower rod or on a line as the heat in a dryer will speed up the disintegration of the rubber backing much faster. When you notice pieces of the rubber backing starting to flake off, it's time for a new bathmat.

As far as what new washer to buy, decide what you can afford to spend and buy the best you can get for the money. You really can't go horribly wrong with most of the new Whirlpool products.


Post# 105438 , Reply# 25   1/24/2006 at 17:56 (6,638 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

and don't forget the Staber washing machine. It's a H-axis washer in a top loading format. They are susposed to be very reliable, and all parts are accessable from the front panel. It is designed to be serviced by the end user.
Their website has a video of one in operation and they seem to use a generous amount of water in the wash cycle.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO whirlcool's LINK


Post# 105445 , Reply# 26   1/24/2006 at 19:02 (6,638 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
The sad truth

mickeyd's profile picture
I love all washing machines--without exception, especially the relatively new Chinese washers, the Haiers. Unfortunately, they all seem to arrive in America dented, or busted in some manner. I think our brothers in shipping and trucking resent the influx of Chinese goods, fearing that someday we will be their slaves, carting them around in ricshaws. HA HA--wonder how you spell ricshaw!

The other day I stuffed my giant comforter in the agitatorless Haier portable. It did not move around too much. Normaly the same comforter gets washed in my Whirlpoo Top-loader (TL) where it does move around. Both machines get the thing clean. But the Haier cheats . It soaks for 20 minutes, washes for 15, and rinses twice, and spins at hurling speeds like the front loaders. The Whirlpool washes for nine minutes, rinses once, and doesn't extract as much water.

Look, I digress. Sorry. Here's the point. In the In TL-FL Sweepstakes which Consumer Reports runs annually, they never tell the whole truth. TL's use a more powerful HE detergent. They can soak and wash forever; they can heat the water; they rinse three times or four on the extra rinse option; and they can spin like hell. And with all of that they barely beat out most of the TL's. So imagine if we play fairly and equalize the playing field. Turn up your hot water tank, use the HE Tide, leave the lid open so that your load will soak after the wash for an hour, select extra rinse, and your clothes will be on their way to God, creaming any front loader. The only thing the front loader can do better is extract water. Without special detergent and long washes, soaks, multiltle rinsing, it could not equal the performance of TL. Now, the retroactive proof: For years and years, I have sent out my shirts to a commercail front loading launday, maybe a half dozen times each year, just because I like the starch and the professional ironing, or because I'm lazy and in a hurry. THE COLLARS NEVER EVER EVER COME BACK TOTALLY CLEAN--NEVER EVER ONCE !!! I SWEAR TO GOD. BUT.... When the EasySpin or the GE or the Whirlpools, BD or
DD, or the Maytag does the shirts , the collars NEVER EVER EVER ONCE COME OUT DIRTY-- N O T O N E T I M E D I R T Y !!! I SWEAR TO GOD I'm telling the truth. And the truth often hurts. The tests are all rigged to favor the FL's. Think about it long and hard. It will never work. Most Americans hate to stoop to wash; hence all the pedestals for the TL's. It's nor going to happen here. Top loaders are here to stay.


Post# 105463 , Reply# 27   1/24/2006 at 20:26 (6,638 days old) by frontloadfan (Wellfleet, Ma.)        
Swear Comforters No Problem

Hey Mistervain,

I have the Kitchenaid fl, which is made by whirlpool and shares most of the same functions/cycles as the Kenmore HE and the Whirlpool Duet. I have the option of adding an Autosoak as an option. In other words, before the indicated cycle starts, my machine will run in autosoak mode for a full 30 minutes. Initial action is to fill machine up to the bottom of the glass. It does this in stages, with robusts tumbles. Once the water level has reached to the bottom of the glass in the door, there are pauses of a minute or so between the tumbles. If it is a smaller load, all of the clothing will stay in the water the entire soak time. If the load is larger, the clothes are churned in and out of the water. At the conclusion the 30 minutes the machine will drain but not spin before starting the selected cycle. Autosoak or soak options are two features to look for in a front loader if you are looking for a really wet wash. Some machines include "weter" cycles such as "bulky". If your machine has more than a few cycles, chances are some of the cycles feature significantly more water.

I know the Kenmore version of my machine offers a skin care rinse that features a higher water level. Of course, about all front loaders give you the option of adding an extra rinse. Sure a top loader uses a ton of water to rinse. Front loaders are frugal with the rinse water, but feature 3 or more rinses coupled with high spin speed in between to provide a very effective rinse.

Regarding your comforter issue, I wander if you machine does not function properly? As another poster noted, the machine will strive to fill up to the desingated level. If your machine is working properly, there should be no dry spots in the comforter at all.

To the posting talking about how the Consumer Reports tests are slanted to favor the Front Loader, it should be noted that the factors mentioned (use HE detergent, can heat water, provide 3 or 4 rinses, etc) are all part of what makes the front loader a front loader. The bottom line is that the front loader does clean just as well - if not better - that the top loader and does so using a fraction of the water and energy. In my book that is something to feel good about.

On a side issue, is HE detergent really more potent than regular detergent? I always understood that HE detergent was formulated to minimize suds to avoid oversuddsing in the smallers amount of water used in the FL. In other words, if you used HE detergent in a top loader, would it clean better than regular detergent? Another positive factor, as I understand, is that even though you tend to use less detergent in a front loader compared to a top loader, the ratio of detergent to water is still much greater in the front load wash water compare to the top load wash water.

As to whether the conventional top loader will endure, that is another question. Just like the government stepped in and said you cannot use 5 gallons of water to flush your toilet, the day is coming when they will say you can't use 50 gallons of water to wash a load of clothes! No one likes to be told what they can do or buy, but limited resources may eventually mandate the elimination of the conventional top loader.


Post# 105464 , Reply# 28   1/24/2006 at 20:28 (6,638 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Take a slow, deep, relaxing breath. Now, exhale. There. Don't worry, no one is going door-to-door confiscating TL'ers. If you believe they're better, then continue using them.

Post# 105479 , Reply# 29   1/24/2006 at 21:22 (6,638 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        

mickeyd's profile picture
Hey Mister Swimfan


Such a subtle know-it-all like yourself should know that High Efficiency Detergents are more powerful than their humbler counterparts. Do some experimenting.

What will you do when the Chinese government tells you what to do? Having stooped so long downloading your frontloader, you'll be a prime candidate for ricshawing the authoritarians you so clearly worship.
'


Post# 105495 , Reply# 30   1/24/2006 at 22:13 (6,638 days old) by mistervain ()        

Frontloadfan, my experience has been with a Kenmore front loader that doesn't have the "soak" or other special options. I love FL's--except for the water usage issue. Is this Kitchenaid you have still sold?

The only FL currently on the market with variable water levels that I am aware of is the Danby. I have been wanting to buy one of those, or something similar, as I have heard about even stricter 2007 Energy Star guidelines to take effect.

If these FL's (like the Kenmore I have tried) used any less water, the clothes would be dry!

Someone else mentioned the Miele, but the Mieles made for the American market are also Energy Star according to their website. 7 gallons per cycle?? Give me a break!!


Post# 105514 , Reply# 31   1/25/2006 at 01:46 (6,638 days old) by norgeman ()        
Front Loaders

What I wish is that they all would fill up to half way up the window like the old Westinghouses used to. It might use a little more water but I think it would do a better job of cleaning and also put a water lever dial so we can adjust the level our selves and not have it done for us. I'm sorry but this cold water tide that they have on the market is not for me I still like using hot water for washing whites and a warn water rinse. Be careful about using it as I have seen in the past when they brought a new product out on the market later they learn that it did some kind of thing and had to be taken of the market. And besides they tried this with Cold Power laundry detergent durning the 70's and it floped. So be warned some things aren't as good as they would like you to believe.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO norgeman's LINK


Post# 105526 , Reply# 32   1/25/2006 at 03:51 (6,638 days old) by mistervain ()        

Norgeman I couldn't agree more.

Post# 105529 , Reply# 33   1/25/2006 at 05:38 (6,638 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

I don't get as to why so many Americans get the impression that frontloaders cannot clean at all. Frontloaders have been around here in Europe for years and every single one I have used has been able to get clothes clean in a low water level wash. Nobody's clothes here smell (unless you use one of those awfully ineffective eco-friendly detergents such as Ecover, but then this would cause problems in a toploader just as much as in a frontloader), nobody has hunchbacks from unloading the washer (bear in mind you have to bend over anyway to unload the dryer, and from the toploaders I've used you've actually had to bend more to peel laundry off teh side of the tub after the cycle), and I don't know of many people who have stains left in their clothes - and usually when they do they're misusing the washer, in terms of either overloading it, using the completely wrong cycle/temperature, or simply using too little detergent, or a cheaper ineffective one at that.

High water levels actually compromise the tumbling action in frontloaders, which is exactly why delicate cycles in front loaders fill more - so as to cushion the laundry more from the tumbling which gets standard loads such as whites or towels thoroughly clean. Low water levels are best for washing in a frontloader, as the tumbling is more pronounced the lower the water level goes. For a standard load of towels or clothes, which have standard absorbency rates and don't require a lot of water in order to be saturated, you don't need a water level any higher than an inch or so in the bottom of the tub for good cleaning. I can get my whites white without the need for a prewash, or high wash water levels - most of my white loads are pretty grotty (I have a younger brother who goes outside in white socks with no shoes on), and with a dose of Persil, a 50*C wash, and 3 rinses, I can have a load of whites back to white in my Miele in 1:16. Sure, the cycle takes 46 minutes longer than your average TL but that is more or less only because of the long spins the Miele does between the rinses, as well as the multiple rinses, and also bear in mind that it has to heat the wash water up from cold. All stains are fully removed, the whole load is rinsed thoroughly, and I've used a lot less water than I would have done to wash the same load in a toploader.

Sure, I find toploaders are fun as any washer enthuasiast would, but the ones I've used in coin op launderettes at least washed nowhere near as well, nor rinsed as well, as any frontloader I have used, even my old shitty Hotpoint which I absolutely loathed. I'm not anti-TL or anti-FL - as I just said I like both designs of machine and both are as fun as each other - but we should stop shadowing the real truth with our enthuasiasm.

Of course, anybody with half a care for the environment and the future generation (such as the one I will have to grow up in) will understand that energy efficient measures, whether its in the laundry, the bathroom, on the road, or whatever you can think of, will help sustain future generations. Sure, some may feel that they are being dictated as to what they can and cannot use and that their freedom is being taken away, but wouldn't you rather give the freedom to future generations, the freedom of having luxuries such as electricity, the freedom of having enough drinking water, the freedom of being able to breath in the air outside? And that point aside, at this point in time anyway nobody is saying that you can't buy a toploader - but I certainly feel a lot less guilty not wasting energy to heat the wash water or using a smaller amount of water to do essentially the same job as a toploader can do which, let's face it, is simply more inefficient at doing the same job.

Mistervain - the US Miele is programmable, as all other Miele's worldwide are, with the Sensitive option. As mentioned in another thread you can mod this option to give you an extra rinse, a higher water level, or an extra rinse and a higher water level. Of course they do also have the Delicates cycle, which uses a high water level throughout.

Mickeyd - perhaps the laundry you send your shirts too is using an ineffective detergent if you are having stains left over on your collars, I highly doubt it is solely because they use frontloaders.

Shoot me all you want guys, I've already said that I like both frontloaders and toploaders equally, but nobody can deny that frontloaders are essentially more efficient at doing the same job provided that they are used properly.

Jon


Post# 106071 , Reply# 34   1/26/2006 at 23:53 (6,636 days old) by frontloadfan (Wellfleet, Ma.)        
Hi Lavamat

I am really surprised that you have been able to experience top loaders in England. I have visited London a few times and each time I go I end up doing a wash at a laundramat and I have never seen a top loader!

I think Europe is so far ahead of the US in terms of the enviroment/ecology and all of that. The times I have been in a London laundrmat, I have been impressed. If you need detergent, you put in your coins in a machine and the laundry detergent is dispenced into a re-usable cup. Here in the U.S. everything is packaged.

Another big difference I have noticed is that in London, some of the laudramats will have front load washers stacked on top of each other. I have never seen that here in the states.

Any case, thanks for your input.


Post# 106084 , Reply# 35   1/27/2006 at 06:19 (6,636 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
The real difference

I have already said it in some post else...
In the states you find difference between FL and TL, because of the different washing sistem: TL has a completely filled vertical tub, and agitate your clothes back and forth, while FL hase a minimun filled horizontal drum, and tumble your clothes to get 'em clean.
Here in Europe common TL work as well as a FL, tumbling the laundry, that's why there's no difference between them here!
French love Eropean TL, in fact in France the 90% circa of washers are TL.
The 1947 Lauderall, and the Staber washers are TL American washers that work in the same manner as a European TL washer (no agitator, tumble action).
I think that here in Europe you can find American TL washers maybe only in Laundrettes and perhaps there is only a model of Whirlppol UK brand.
Without any doubt if you have to choose on the water savarage, American FL such as Whirlpool Duet, or other brads which produce washers like it (FL I mean), you do the best choice...
GoodBye everyone!
Diomede


Post# 106089 , Reply# 36   1/27/2006 at 06:58 (6,636 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
norgeman-- I certainly understand your reluctance to use cold water. I've said several times that I never, EVER thought I would, either. The thought of washing a load of whites in cold water just didn't make sense to me. But Tide CW is the best-cleaning detergent I've ever used. Period. No contest. It gets out stains in 65-degree water that Tide HE liquid and 145-degree water did not. Again, I'll only use the powdered version of Tide CW. The liquid is very good, but the powder trumps it for stain removal.

I remember Cold Power, too. But it didn't clean well, which is why it flopped. Plus, I think people were even less inclined to use cold water back in the 60's-early 70's. Many washers didn't even rinse in cold water back then.


Post# 106090 , Reply# 37   1/27/2006 at 07:04 (6,636 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Jon, you have to remember that we're Americans. Bigger, louder, more, more, more, just HAS to be better. And we can afford that attitude because water, utility and fuel prices are still far cheaper here than they are in the UK and Europe.

Post# 106129 , Reply# 38   1/27/2006 at 12:47 (6,635 days old) by srswirl ()        
Cold Power

You know, I must be going senile, because I remember Cold Power VERY differently than everyone else. Cold Power was, BY FAR, the BEST laundry detergent I have EVER used...it left Persil in the DUST. My father was a car mechanic...and you've not seen (or smelled) dirty laundry (except possibly for diapers) until you've seen what a mechanic can bring home on his clothing. Every chemical under the sun in addition to the oil and gas. Cold Power consistently removed any and every stain and odor I ever remember him bringing home. His collars would be black from the sweat and, upon washing with Cold Power, would look like they had never been worn. And we had a BOL Kenmore with a simple straight vane agitator. I loved this stuff and BEGGED (I mean, literally begged, folks) Lever Brothers to bring it back to my area when they discontinued it. We used to buy it in 60lb boxes! Fond memories!

Today I use an FL and lots of hot, hot water along with good detergents. But I haven't witnessed anything today that Cold Power couldn't equal...or even best. The more I learn on these forums about detergents, the more I am convinced that water chemistry is a far larger part of the picture of how well (or poorly) a detergent works than most people think. We had common ground water from a well. Every time you started using water, you would hear the pump come on. :-)


Post# 106144 , Reply# 39   1/27/2006 at 15:34 (6,635 days old) by rayjay (Carteret, New Jersey)        
High Water Levels compromise tumbling action

Lavamat jon. This would make sense in that the early Bendix front loaders were not that good in cleaning. They did have high water levels. I remember this from the laudromats. The clothes sort of floated. This would support your theory for the "Delicate" cycle in that it uses more water (which my LG does) to cushion the clothes.

Ray


Post# 106155 , Reply# 40   1/27/2006 at 16:15 (6,635 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        
Staber Washers

gansky1's profile picture
It's interesting that you mention these, I've seen a couple of them, one in action and it's a fairly impressive machine but they have had their share of troubles. It uses approx. 5 gallons of water per fill, one wash and 2 rinses for a total of around 15 gallons. The sounds the machine makes with the hexagon shaped basket surging through the water pool in the bottom of the tub is incredible, you can hear the clothes slamming around in the water. The cycle is relatively short, a plus if you tend to do washing all on one day. On the downside, the washer is rather noisy - especially during spin, not just a little bit loud either, this was a 'run for the hills' sort of loud. The capacity could be better, other machines surpass the Staber by a long shot and the door/opening in the actual clothes basket is a bit clunky and small. They are indeed intended to be serviced by the customer/owner but this would probably be a rather daunting task for many people, especially if you needed to replace a set of tub bearings.

Post# 106177 , Reply# 41   1/27/2006 at 20:10 (6,635 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        
Stabers

On the Staber website, they show a cut away view of a Staber washing. The water levels appear to be higher than most FL's. But if the drum is very small, (note they only mention you can wash a Queen size comfortor, not a King) that could account for 5 gallons leading to a "high" water level.
I have never seen one of these in person, I think that they are actually kind of rare compared to other brands. I also think that if something is built to a Military spec, noise is only a secondary consideration, function comes first.


Post# 106182 , Reply# 42   1/27/2006 at 20:24 (6,635 days old) by westytoploader ()        

I used to have a negative opinion about the Staber machines but reading more about them has changed that. The Staber seems to be a promising design, and they have quite a few features missing on modern FL's: water level control, mechanical timer, and short cycle time comparable to a TL. I watched the videos again, and the "passive pumping action" is very interesting to say the least, and while energy efficient, it isn't afraid to take a lot of water in!!

Not to mention they now have a matching dryer and a variety of colors to choose from!

--Austin


Post# 106186 , Reply# 43   1/27/2006 at 20:59 (6,635 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Thanks Austin,

will check out the matching dryer.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO toggleswitch's LINK


Post# 106194 , Reply# 44   1/27/2006 at 21:07 (6,635 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
I thought so.........they added their own control panel. Per

toggleswitch's profile picture
Disclaimer: Staber has modified a Whirlpool Commercial OPL dryer. Staber is not affiliated in any way with Whirlpool Corporation.

How can they get a way with that? Do they pay a licensing fee or do they need a special agrement?

L@@K at that price...... OUCH
$800 Electric
$875 Gas


Post# 106309 , Reply# 45   1/28/2006 at 09:03 (6,634 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
Staber Hexagon tube...

Some days ago I worte to Staber industries, because I found their washers very similar to our European TL washers, although the completely don't. I asked them these following things:

- why don't you use a circular tub? RE: we consider that in a hexagon tub we can get more water turbolence. I don't think so, because a circular tub with three vanes or more can make the same turbolence they want, using more less water! Then I don't want to imagine the spin... in a hexagon tub???? Your laundry will surely be still wet at the end!

- why do you put the trasmission on the front side? RE: we do that to make possible repairations quicker and easier. Untill here there were wahsers like those, I always have found the trasmission on the back side (now the tub has rounded, an the trasmission is generally on the left side), anyway I wondered myself a lot of this answer...

I think at the end that both techincal Staber choises are responsible of the high noise you've spoken about, even bacuse I didn't hear spoken about any noise-isolation ("assenza di vibrazioni", "ammortizzatori","polistirolo"...sorry for using Italian:-) support at all in those machines...

If I were in USA I wouldn't have any problem to choose between FL and TL: without any doubt FRONT LOADING! They use less water, and even if this is not good for someone, remeber that they have got their big windowed lid through you can watch at your laundry tumbling making yourself happy!

But as I'm European and Italian (although I own both type of washers), I prefer TOP LOADING! You can load them easier, you dont' find your laundry twisted at the end of the wash-cycle (as it happens if you overload a FL, because the bottom of the drum rotates but the lid doesn't, while in a H-axis TL both side of the drum rotate), and even if you can't watch at your laundry tumbling, if you open the lid you find your drum sudsed, and if you keep it closed, you HEAR your washer whashing, because each of our own wahser has got a soul... you don't need to see it to hear it it's enogh :-)
Good Bye Everyone!
Diomede

PS: Here it's snowing so much we can't go anywhere... I'll stay at home the whole weekend!


Post# 106318 , Reply# 46   1/28/2006 at 09:53 (6,634 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Hmm,

That dryer doesn't quite match the washer. And it's quite a price for a dryer, but I guess you get a sturdy machine for it. A bit of an overkill I guess.

The new washer models in color have sound insulation, but the extra money they want for it is quite a bit. $500.- for the color and sound insulation is too much I think.

I still find these machines fascinating. I too love H-axis toploaders.

Diomede,

I never had problems with laundry being twisted in a frontloader. The laundry never reaches the door, it stays in the drum, no problems here. I think you can only achieve that by severely overloading.


Post# 106727 , Reply# 47   1/30/2006 at 02:21 (6,633 days old) by norgeman ()        
SRSwirl

I could put your cold power to the test with a old reliable stand by detergent that had been around for years and really works well in a front loader and/or top loader that being Oxydol in a hot wash was by far the best detergent that you could buy. How do I know this is my grandmother had a Westinghouse laundomat and used oxydol and everyone always asked her how she got her sheets so white. Also when I was living at home and when I got married most places that we lived we used oxydol whether it had hard water or soft water it always did an excellant job of getting clothes clean. It even worked better than Tide. But I do agree with you that it has a lot to do with the quality of the water whether it is hard or soft. My grandmothers place in West Bingham had naturaly soft water which helps a great deal and my grandpa on my mom's side and my aunt Hazel of my mom's side used oxydol and always produced a wonderful wash that would knock your sox off. I wish P&G would not have sold the Oxydol name and formula to anoter company redox cause it isn't the same. I liked it the way it was.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO norgeman's LINK


Post# 108614 , Reply# 48   2/8/2006 at 20:51 (6,623 days old) by bingwsguy (Binghamton NY)        
Front vs Top Load

Using my Maytag Wringer Washer is like driving my old Volkswagen Bug...it just puts a smile on my face, but for everyday, I went to a front load washer back in 1997 and do like the front load design best. The European brands like Miele, Bosch, and Asko don't hold as much, but have internal water heaters capable of 165 to 205 degree water heating, which produce the whitest whites on the planet, and final spin speeds of 1200 to 1600rpm, which when you pull towels or jeans out, they are practically dry. They save a lot of water and energy and are quiet. I currently have a Bosch Axxis, and am very pleased. If you are a laundry nut like I am, go for the performance features and you're more likely to be happy long term. Have fun shopping. :)

Post# 108682 , Reply# 49   2/9/2006 at 09:58 (6,622 days old) by the7 ()        
H-axis or V-axis washers?

Let me share some of my experince on the washers.
Since 197x, I had owned
1) Zanasui FL, then
2) AEG TL H-axis, then
3) Brandt TL H-axis.
These are all cold filled with about 5kg capacity with one fixed low-speed spin.
We tended to use cold or "heated 30C" wash because the high cost of electricity over there. The total wash time is over one hour. The wash result is satisfory as compared with other Japan TL using agitator-plate.
We prefered TL H-axis over FL because TL needs a lesser space width (about 20"). The wash drum is supported by bearings on both ends. There is a lesser leakage hazard due to door seal/boot.

After living in Canada, I bought a 96 Maytag Dependable Care TL which is still working without any repairs. This is the first time I own an full-size TL with agitator. To my surprise it finished the washing in less than the half-time of our previous washers. It is great in "time", but "poor" in the washing result. Some trace of white stuff (undissolved detergent and lint) are noticeable on laundry.
It take us a long time to learn and improve the washing in TL-agitator.
Use powder in Warm/Hot wash and liquid in Cold wash.
Dissolve the detergent first in water with small-load water-level.
Put in the laundry/clothing.
Select large-load water-level.
Switch on to start the actual washing.

However, I still prefer the washing result of my previous H-axis washers over my present TL-agitator.

I am adding an Huebsch FL which is an older/dis-continous model and will learn to use it soon.

It takes time to learn when switching from one type of washer to another type.




Post# 108796 , Reply# 50   2/10/2006 at 03:34 (6,622 days old) by the7 ()        
Huebsch LTZ85 arrives at last!

At last, my Huebsch LTZ85 arrived this afternoon. It is a floor model with some dents and scratch. My 96 Maytag TL is moved from main floor to the basement as a second/spare unit.
Huebsch FL is put in place of Maytag at the main floor.

Apparently the Huebsch FL has been in the store for guite a long time. The Rear Control Console was loose. The shipping package is missing so there could a possibility of damaging the suspension. Before connecting it up, I tried to do inpection/service first.
Unscrewed the control console and inspected the circuit board/wiring inside the console. This looks OK. Tighten the screws of the console to the top.
Unscrewed the rear inspection plate to visual inspect the motor and belt. Looks OK.
Unscrewed the kick plate at the front. The store did replace the hose the outer tub and the pump. Cleaned up the patches of detergent residue at the base which was leaked due to the bad hose. The pump looks OK. All four dampers look OK.
Surpise to find Huebsch FL uses cast iron block as the counter-balancing weight which is similar to Miele. Most FL other use concrete blocks.
Two rubber footing were bad, one torn and one missing. Fitted two new rubber footing.
Connected up Hot, Cold and Drain hoses.
Moved into the exact location and did a leveling and tightened up the lock-nuts of the footings.
I was totally exhaused after three hours of work.

Then came the important moment of trial test.
Pluged in power. Selected the "Rinse and Spin" cycle.
It tumbled OK and is quieter than my TL.
It did "pulse spin, medium speed and high speed speed". The high speed spin produce a jet-turbine noise which is somewhat louder than the spin of my TL. I think my TL spin at a speed approximately equal to the medium speed of Huebsch FL. The vibration transfer to the floor is not worse than my TL. So the leveling is OK and I was much relieved.

Next the FL needed a "wash cycle" to clean itself without any laundry.
Put 1/4 cup ordinary powder detergent and use the Hot wash cycle.
Wow, the whole drum was full of foam and sud. However let it go through the whole cycle and run another "Rinse and Spin" to clear out all foam/sud.
During the test, an ammeter was used to measure the supply current. The internal heater was found to take 8.8A which is about 1050W at 120V.
Took a break for dinner and then did two real REGULAR washing.
One light color laundry using 1/8 cup of powder detergent at Warm wash. Nearly no foam/sud this time. I think I should use 1/4 cup. Washing result is better and could wash about 30% more than my TL.
One dark color lauudry using 1/4 cup of liquid color detergent.
Very little foam/sud. Not trace of lint on dark or black laundry.

I am too tired now and need a sleep.
Good night and write a bit more in the morning!











Post# 108797 , Reply# 51   2/10/2006 at 04:38 (6,622 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Cleaning Inside Washer

launderess's profile picture
Here is a good tip to clean front loaders: set the washer for normal/hot or warm water (tap temp is fine), and as the machine is filling pour about one quart of white vinegar into the machine and let it complete the cycle. Vinegar is a mild acid and will not only deodorize and kill mould/fungus, but rid the machine of detergent residue as well.

As an alternative one can use those professional strength products sold for cleaning insides of automatic dishwasher/washing machines. One brand is called "Dishwasher Magic/Washing Machine Magic".

A Miele tech also suggested using baking soda in the same cycle as the vinegar, but am too chicken to test this. Will ask the Miele tech when he comes to install our washer this weekend about it. For the record, do use baking soda and white vinegar to "clean" drains, but it does make quite allot of foam.

Congrats on your new baby, we're waiting for some snaps!

Launderess


Post# 108845 , Reply# 52   2/10/2006 at 10:12 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        
New FL vs TL and Old FL!

Thanks Laundress for cleaning tips and will post some snaps soon.

When I did the first REGULAR washing in Huebsch FL, the water level is very low, below the door opening. I was very skeptical about its washing and rinsing effect of the new FL because my previous 197X Zanusi FL had its water level above the door opening. I could not tell about the water levels in the other two old TL H-axis (AEG and Brandt).
It seems that the new FL simply soak the laundry with detergent water, lift and drop it on the top of the bottom wet laundry.
I was much relieved when I noted the washing result. From my poor memory, it seems to clean as well as my old H-axis washers and better than my present Maytag TL. Definitely the laundry is less wet than TL and old H-axis washers.
The drying time for laundry from Huebsch FL was about 45 min, while the same laundry from Maytag TL would take at least 60 min.
So far I have not try the other cycles (PP and Delicate) which would use high water level washing. PP will use normal speed tumbing (like Regular) but use medium speed spin. Delicate will use low-speed tumbling and low-speed spin.

It is new to me that Huebsch use "Pulse spin" prior to the normal speed spin. It rams up for a few second and back. It does the same a few time. Apparently Huebsch uses this "Pulse spin" profile to distribute the laundry while other new FL use some complicate "feedback control spin" profiles (which require feedback sensors for sensing motor-current, speed, and excessive foam/sud) for laundry distribution. All FL use "Out of Balance" switch for excessive unbalance condition.

The current for tumbling varies from 0.6A to less than 3A.
The short time current for "Pulse spin" reach a max of 10A.
The current for spin is 4 to 5A.
The heater takes about 8.8A.
Huebsch is so designed that Heating and Tumbling will not take place at the same time for the Heated wash.
It does show that even if the Heating and Tumbling take place at the same time, the supply current will not exceed 12A ( lower than the 15A socket rating). However, Huebsch engineers must have their own school of thought in laundry.

When comparing the construction between my TL and FL;

1)Maytag TL is far more simple and robust. Only one single-phase induction motor - rotating in one direction for agitating and in the opposited for spinning using its bullet-proof transmission. Both inner and outer tubs are metal. Very simple mechanical selector and electro-mechanical timer control. No elecronics at all. Extremely easy to serve and repair.

2)Huebsch FL is far more complicate and also robust. It has one drive motor and one pump motor. Power electronic control board for drive motor. ATC for Warm wash and Heater for Heated wash. Door seal(boot)introduce extra maintenance and leakage hazard. Higher spin speed in H-axis will give rise to a probility of excessive vibration and unbalance. Altough this older version Huebsch uses electro-mechanical timer, there are also process electronic timing control in the control board which is also control the advancement of the electro-mechanical timer. FL has both stainless steel inner and outer tubs.
Thus the service/repair of FL is not anyone job.

Hope this could be of some interect.






Post# 108874 , Reply# 53   2/10/2006 at 14:45 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        
Photo of Huebsch LTZ85

Photo of LTZ85 with heater.

Post# 108875 , Reply# 54   2/10/2006 at 14:47 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        
Photos of LTZ85

Electro-Mechanical Timer

Post# 108876 , Reply# 55   2/10/2006 at 14:50 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        
Photos of LTZ85

There are 4 shocks (damper with spring) suspending tub onto the base.

Post# 108877 , Reply# 56   2/10/2006 at 14:52 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        
Photos of LTZ85

The counter-balanced weight is of cast iron.

Post# 108878 , Reply# 57   2/10/2006 at 14:54 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        
Phots of LTZ85

This is my first wash on LTZ85.

Post# 108879 , Reply# 58   2/10/2006 at 15:05 (6,621 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
YAY Obligatory underwear shot.

toggleswitch's profile picture
Thanks so much for the snap-shots.
Interesting that the door hinges on the right sides.

Did I miss something?
1- This looks like an Amana control panel to me.........
2- How many rinses normally, and then with *extra* option?

Thanks also for sharing the pic of your fist wash with us all!


Post# 108881 , Reply# 59   2/10/2006 at 15:17 (6,621 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Wow, cool machine. When you said "commercial" I was expecting something in stainless with a coin slot, LOL.

Post# 108896 , Reply# 60   2/10/2006 at 16:14 (6,621 days old) by the7 ()        

Huebsch FL has normally two rinses. One extra rinse will be added if the "Extra Rinse" is ON.

Note that LTZ8* is a discontinuous (after 1993/94) model which uses electro-mechanical timer. The control console looks very similar to SQ/Huebsch TL.
The existing modelis LTZ9* which uses electronic timer with Cycle selector-switch which has only Regular (Normal), PP(Normal) and Delicate (Normal). There is no choice of Heavy and Light soiled selection.


Post# 109627 , Reply# 61   2/13/2006 at 21:35 (6,618 days old) by the7 ()        
Correction!

Huebsch LTZ8* is discontinous after 2003 (NOT 1993/94) and is replaced by LTZ9*.

Would prefer LTZ8* for its electro-mechanical timer.
Would prefer LTZ9* for its 3-phase induction motor which is more robust than DC series motor (used by LTZ8*).

For a fast spin of 1000 rpm (drum speed), the motor would be about 10,000 rpm if the pulley raito is 10:1. The brushes and communutator of the DC series motor would give a high pitch noise.




Post# 109629 , Reply# 62   2/13/2006 at 21:37 (6,618 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)        

mayken4now's profile picture
good for you! glad a frontloader is what you decided. I will always have one God willing!


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