Thread Number: 47722
Looking for a Hobart-Kitchenaid Dishwasher
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Post# 692783   7/29/2013 at 03:12 (3,915 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Hello all!

I have been lurking for a while and have decided to actively try to find a hobart-made kitchenaid dishwasher. My Mother had one when I was a kid and I used to fall asleep in front of it because I found the sound soothing...

I was thinking about getting a miele because I love some of the features, but I don't love the price tag. If I am going to stay in the cheaper range, I may as well find a no longer loved kitchenaid that I can love for years to come.

The main problem I face is that I can't find one in my area of North Dakota. Ebay is showing several listings of serviced ones, but that brings another problem... What are the differences between kdp, kdc, kds and kdi etc model codes? Also, what are the differences between generations? I am getting a feel that the general sought-after one is a KDS18. Is there a listing somewhere that provides a generation-generation change?

If you guys could help, or know of a decent KDS that could be shipped to my area, please let me know! Happy ware-washing!





Post# 692792 , Reply# 1   7/29/2013 at 05:27 (3,915 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Let's do letters first
C=custom-bottom of line--full cycle (normal wash), added rinse & hold after 16 seriews
I=Imperial next up--added Soad & Scrup with 17 series
P=Patrician only found in 18-20 series I believeHad rapid avance timer, pretty much everything but Sani Rinse and maybe adjustable top rack.
S=Superba, the top of the line--full featured

16 & 17 Series still single-wash level, one-arm design.
18 Series added wash arm below upper rack.
19 series offered automatic water heating but only no-heated dry.
20 series had water heating and also returned heated dry
21 series--the last of the Hobart product. during the 21 series is when Whirlpool acquired KitchenAid and some of the 21 series wasn't made by Hobart but still had all the same racking and porcelain interior

I'm sure I missed some of the more finer points, but it's a good general overview. You can use my email in my profile to contact me.

Hope this helps.


Post# 692798 , Reply# 2   7/29/2013 at 06:24 (3,915 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Thanks for the reply!

So, when did they include wash arm on the top of the tub? The 19 had no heated dry? Did it have the fan option taken out as well? Do the 20's hold up?

I don't suppose you know what years what generations were made?

I have a Edgestar DWP60ES 6 place counter-top dishwasher that doesn't have heated dry. I've gotten used to that, but if the 19 has the fan, I'd probably be ok with that. I plan on putting the counter-top model in the cabinet next to my sink and the kitchenaid in freestanding cabinet with an enameled cast deep wash sink in my utility/pantry of my studio apartment.


Post# 692813 , Reply# 3   7/29/2013 at 07:18 (3,915 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
Yes, We Do!

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"I don't suppose you know what years what generations were made?"

Here, direct from the AW.org Archives, is the official KitchenAid list of its models and their production dates.

And direct from me, here's a hint: Go for a Superba, the TOL model. Used, they cost no more, and the extra features make them extra-satisfying to own and use. Fortunately for your quest, Superbas are actually the most common KA's to find; it seems that anyone who could afford a KA brand new usually went whole hog:


Post# 692835 , Reply# 4   7/29/2013 at 10:02 (3,915 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Constant Rinse

Joshua,
The small waash arm you referred to was called "Constant Rinse." This little addition came out on the 16 series machines and ended with the 18 series. It did help keep the "yibbles" out of the tops of cups and bowls in the top rack. They were very easily broken and I would venture to guess that the average user probably did not know it was even there so they would just load up the top rack and slide it in and if it encountered some resistance, they pushed the rack harder until it slid in,resulting in a broken rinse assembly. They are no longer available but sometimes they show up on Ebay. They also changed the design from the original so keep your eyes open for one on Ebay if you should find yourself with an 18 series.
It did not provide any fresh water risning but was powered by the wash pump and sent detergent laden water over the stuff in the top rack. Of course, during the rinses, it would send that clean water over the dishes.

The constant rinse arm was removed with the 19 series and did not reappear until the tall tubs came out. It did look like it was thought about for the 24 series Whirlpool clone as there was a small tube on the top of the water supply tube for the upper wash arm that was capped off but I guess they changed their minds about it for the KA line.

The tall tubs have a spinner which now looks like the original design from the late 60's while some of the Kenmores and Whirlpools had one that emulated the newer designed which was a rotating disc which flung the water out over the dishes.


Post# 693051 , Reply# 5   7/30/2013 at 01:39 (3,914 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I'm gonna keep looking for a Hobart-made Kitchenaid, but doing a lot of calling around the last few days is proving fruitless... I started snooping around on the net and came across this from gardenweb:

User Lee676 posted:
KitchenAid dishwashers made from about 1985 to 1993 (or whenever the Hobart design was replaced by the Whirlpool-based design) were actually manufactured by Emerson, parent company of Insinkerator. When Whirlpool tried to buy KitchenAid, they were hit with an antitrust lawsuit from both WCI and Magic Chef, which both argued that the proposed sale of Kitchenaid would give Whirlpool an illegally high concentration of market share that would force smaller competitors of the market. The Zagrans law firm (of which Whirlpool was a client) has the text of the injunctions online (WCI vs. Whirlpool); the court initially ruled against Whirlpool, blocking the buyout of KitchenAid. The legal documents provide interesting reading; in order to get the legal green light, Zagrans and Whirlpool came up with a scheme that would skirt antitrust law by having Hobart sell Kitchenaid to Emerson rather than Whirlpool, and arranging a sweetheart deal that would have Emerson build their latest-design dishwasher exclusively for Whirlpool (branded KitchenAid) and themselves (branded InSinkErator) for the next 8 years, after which legal barriers would be lifted. Whirlpool would pay 20% above cost for the dishwashers they bought from Emerson. But the court ruled that Whirlpool would effectively control Emerson's production, so it still didn't fly until Zagran amended the proposal to allow Emerson to sell their older-design dishwashers to any other manufacturer that wanted them, not just Whirlpool. The idea was that in the 8-year period, Emerson could strike deals with other appliance manufacturers that made only cooking appliances and needed to rebrand an outsourced dishwasher to have a complete line of kitchen appliances, thus maintaining a competitive market. As it turned out, I don't think any other company ever bought Emerson's dishwashers, InSinkErator didn't sell many dishwashers, and they never expanded either manufacturing or branding into other major appliances, and after the 8-year period lapsed, Emerson and ISE simply abandoned dishwashers altogether.

Are the Emerson made dishwashers decent or did they completely go away from the hobart designs?


Post# 693089 , Reply# 6   7/30/2013 at 03:50 (3,914 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

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I may be over-simplifying things, but while Emerson may have built the dishwashers, the design and specs were still all from Hobart until Whirlpool came in, and even then Whirlpool made no major/visible changes until production began on the series 23 machines.

 

Steve T. posted a link to that same injunction document quite some time ago, and it was very informative.  I happen to own two InSinkErator Classic Supreme dishwashers (one is my daily driver, the other a functional spare) which are clones of KA series 22 machines.  Part of the agreement allowing Emerson to put the ISE badge (or any others) on KA machines required them to come up with a different lock/latching system so a lower priced ISE wouldn't look identical to a KA.  $250K later, Emerson had a design for a new latch with a side-to-side movement instead of the KA type that flipped up and down.  I've come to prefer that design over KA's after using my ISE for the past couple of years.

 

If you want a "true" Hobart machine, you should be looking for a series 20 or older.  Those will have the non-reversing motor that was dropped starting with series 21 machines, which used reversing motors made by Emerson.  Personally, I'd pursue a series 18 or 20 (I want the option of a heated dry cycle which the 19's don't have) because they employ a separate wash arm for the upper rack which facilitates carefree loading.  Series 17, 16 and 15 have just the single 4-way Hydrosweep wash arm and as a result loading the lower rack will sometimes require a strategy.  If you're OK with a single wash arm, I suggest not going for anything older than a series 15.  Prior to that, the capacities were smaller, rack design was still based on the earliest KA home models, and there were fewer options.  As was stated further upthread, set your sights on a Superba model for the most options and visual appeal.

 

 


Post# 694100 , Reply# 7   8/4/2013 at 01:16 (3,909 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Thank you all for the very informative replies! Now if only I can find a machine!!

Post# 694208 , Reply# 8   8/4/2013 at 13:28 (3,909 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
The single wash arm,

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aka "4 Way Hydro-Sweep" or "Hurricane In A Box" works just fine with minimal attention to lower rack loading, and do consider models other than the Superba only. We've had most iterations of KA Series 15 thru 18, still have a 17 Custom and Imperial and 18 Patrician and Superba, and we actually prefer the 17 Custom models for their short cycling and much simpler wiring, and while they don't have all the bells + whistles or fancy looks of a KDS, simplicity is an advantage in ANY machine, especially a 40 yr old one, if the basics are sound. They have the same motor/pump, same blower dryer, imo clean and dry just as well, again with just minimal attention to not blocking the water via lower rack obstructions, and they are classic Hobart in quality and function. My $.02

Post# 698041 , Reply# 9   8/22/2013 at 04:14 (3,891 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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In the supermarket there was a post for a portable kitchenaid in butte Mt. I contacted the seller and she said she'd hold the machine for me to pick it up on Sunday. Seeing how I only have a sedan I am going to borrow a family members old van and make the 7 hour schlep over there to get this machine.

With that said, how does one carry this machine in a minivan with out damaging it? When I get there what are things I should look for that would cause me to not want this machine? I'm hoping she sends me more pics of the machine before Sunday.

If anything wish me luck!


Post# 698143 , Reply# 10   8/22/2013 at 13:44 (3,891 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

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It shouldn't matter much how you transport the machine, but if you're going to lay it on its back or side, remove the racks first.

 

Since it's a portable, IIRC the coupler for the faucet connection is at the top rear on these machines.  If you lay the machine on its back, you may want to pull the hoses out so the coupler isn't down by the floor of the vehicle, otherwise you may have some leakage if there's any water sitting in the pump.


Post# 698176 , Reply# 11   8/22/2013 at 15:51 (3,891 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
please be sure...

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to post some pics of your new baby!!

Post# 698235 , Reply# 12   8/22/2013 at 18:08 (3,891 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
If You Want....

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....To convert this dishwasher from a portable to an undercounter unit, here are the instructions.

Yes, we have everything here. ;)


Post# 698529 , Reply# 13   8/24/2013 at 01:37 (3,889 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I am so super excited for Sunday... I think I am annoying the hell out of this poor woman... !!!! Here are some pics she sent me :-)

(I do not understand how this forum works >.> when I try to link to my picasa albums it won't let me use https :// in the links it always adds a http :// .... And I can't turn on the advanced text editor!)

picasaweb.google.com/11250045131...


Post# 698547 , Reply# 14   8/24/2013 at 06:06 (3,889 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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thought maybe you were looking for something like this one....

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK on Southjersey Craigslist


Post# 698548 , Reply# 15   8/24/2013 at 06:08 (3,889 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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Post# 698568 , Reply# 16   8/24/2013 at 11:05 (3,889 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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That stainless one is pretty, but Jersey is a lil far away from me lol... 7 hours to pick this one up is a bit far too but its too good of a deal to pass up...


That being said, she emailed me and told me I'll have to sand the top down and oil it and that it hasn't been used for several years because she had one plumbed in.. She said it was her step-moms and she only used it when they had big get-togethers as a backup.

What actions will I have to take to make sure everything is sealed up, lubed and working again before I can do a maiden load of dishes in it?

I am hoping that running some barkeepers friend in an empty load is safe for it cause I wanna clean the tub and baskets..

Also, what kind of detergent works best in this machine? Right now I use Melaleuca products.

I really can't wait until tomorrow.. I'll probably leave tonight LOL.


Post# 698576 , Reply# 17   8/24/2013 at 11:30 (3,889 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

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After examining the components in the machine's sump area and before you attempt to run it, dump maybe 1/2 gallon of very hot water (but not boiling) into the sump area and let it stand for a while to soften up the rubber pump seal.  This is standard operating procedure with a machine that has been sitting idle for a long period.  If you see any drips under the machine when you do this, make sure they're not getting inside the motor or the presence of water will short it out.  With use, a small leak will often seal itself back up.  Just be vigilant in the beginning.

 

I don't know if BKF is recommended, but someone else here can perhaps advise on that.  I used Lemishine (Target carries it) to clean the interior and freshen up my In-Sink-Erator (KA series 22 clone) once in a while.

 

Depending on the softness/hardness of your water supply, you may need to include a phosphate additive with your detergent.  Bubble Bandit is one brand of automatic dishwasher detergent that still contains phosphates, or you can invest in a big tub of STPP to supplement in whatever dosage provides satisfactory results.

 

Again, since your machine has only the lower wash arm, you'll need to be careful about how you load the bottom rack to make sure no large items like pots prevent the spray from reaching the top rack.  A single pot probably won't be a big deal, but if you have a few of them to wash, they could effectively block the spray and compromise cleaning of contents on the top rack.


Post# 698595 , Reply# 18   8/24/2013 at 12:46 (3,889 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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From what has been said it's a portable 18, its got all three arms. There is a link to some pictures in reply 13. If the link doesn't work let me know.

So I don't have to dump oil or anything in it then right? Also, with this being a portable, will the bottom be exposed? I've never seen one of these out from under a cabinet before.

I am so excited to get this.. I just hope I don't need any parts.


Post# 698632 , Reply# 19   8/24/2013 at 14:51 (3,889 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
I Stand Corrected!

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You're right -- it's an 18 series so you have the upper and lower rack wash arms as well as the shower from the top.

 

Definitely don't dump any oil into it!

 

I'm pretty sure the bottom should be exposed just like with a built-in.


Post# 698634 , Reply# 20   8/24/2013 at 15:08 (3,889 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I hope at some point I can find a stainless steel insert for it.

I appreciate the replies! I just hope nothing happens to keep me from getting it LOL.

I dunno why I am so excited about this ... I've got my first 3 loads of dishes planned out to see how much easier it will be to load this compared to my Edgestar DWP60ES 6 place counter top dishwasher I have now...

That edgestar is a great little counter top unit and now the one they make that replaced my model has a heated dry option so it heats the water too.. I wanna redo one of my base cabinets and make a space to put the edgestar in above a drawer so that will be in my main kitchen space so when its just me I can do a few dishes right away and the KitchenAid will be in the pantry plumbed in so I can load my pots and pans etc up... The edgestar works great for glasses and flatware but not so much for my all-clad pans or mixing bowls.... My KitchenAid 7qt mixer bowl won't fit in it. The next thing I want to replace is my sink.. I'm gonna see if I can find a deep cast iron single or oversized basin sink next.


Post# 698653 , Reply# 21   8/24/2013 at 16:46 (3,889 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
You May Need:

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A faucet coupling to connect the hose assembly to your faucet.

This is a small metal piece that screws onto your faucet in place of the aerator that is almost certainly on the faucet now. The hoses' plastic coupling pushes on to the faucet coupling. Pushing downward on the ring of the hoses' coupling releases the hoses' coupling from the faucet coupling. The button on the hoses' coupling is so that you can draw hot water even if the dishwasher is connected to the faucet; press the button and hold your teakettle, etc. under the coupling.

Hardware stores carry the faucet coupling; unscrew your faucet's aerator and take it with you to help the salesperson match the right size and threading. These are not an exotic part; a reasonably well-stocked hardware or DIY store should have what you need.

Also, to answer one of your questions upthread, the bottom of the dishwasher is open; there is not a cover over the bottom. When you tip the dishwasher onto its side, you'll be looking at the area under the machine, where you will see the motor, etc.


Post# 698868 , Reply# 22   8/25/2013 at 18:41 (3,888 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
Congrats!!!

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My MIL had this exact machine, it's one of Hobart's best - hope you get it and that it lives up to you expectations Josh! Welcome to the club (from a happy 2 x 17 1 x 18 KA Series owner!) Roger in NY

Post# 698934 , Reply# 23   8/26/2013 at 00:21 (3,887 days old) by frontaloadotmy (the cool gay realm)        
Joshua

It looks like you found yourself a very nice Superba. Is there a Habitat (for Humanity) Restore in Dickinson or nearby city/town ? They are a great resource for
very reasonably priced recycled appliances and building materials.


Post# 698953 , Reply# 24   8/26/2013 at 05:43 (3,887 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Dickinson is a branch of the Bakken Artery lol Everyone has to have brand new and what not, but instead of donating their stuff, they just have it disposed of.. All the older appliance shop owners are shutting down because 1, they have oil wells and 2, because they don't want the business anymore.. All you can get now is brand new stuff.:/

.. Well 24 hours and 6 gas stops later, I got the machine, loaded and unloaded... I've updated the photo album that was linked above with new pics... ... It was worth the $25... not much more than that for right now...

The constant rinse arm is busted, if I am seeing that correctly... The middle rinse arm doesn't spin all the way around with out hanging up on the broken plastic that holds it and the top is a bit more gone than I thought, and its loose... The cutlery basket is broken in spots..

I was going to complain about the front wheels but I tightened those...

Ok, I live in a basement apartment.. SON OF A B is that machine heavy.. it took three of us to get it down my cement stairs...

I put waster in it and So far I haven't seen any drips.. I plugged it in after letting it set for a while and it went bonkers, but I pulled the handle all the buttons reset, I did a cancel drain, it went through each cycle for a few seconds had the dry light on for about 30 seconds then it shut off.. I dont have the right coupler.. im going to assume since mine is too small its gonna be the one used for garden hoses? I wanna hear water flowing through this before I go to bed...

Oh, the handle latch on the door is uncomfortably loose, the cord winder cord doesn't stay in place and the plastics on the back are broken and partly missing...

There was a random white clip laying on the bottom, i took a pic of it.. not sure what it goes to. The paint on the DW is a bit banged up... theres rust on the front and in one of the pics you see a random wire...

Also, if you look at the pump pics, there might be an issue.. :/ not sure what I am looking at.. I almost crushed my hand trying to get the pics so I said enough with that... I need a floor hoist to work on this thing...

Please excuse the mutterings .. I am completely exhausted... I drove a little over 1k miles in under 24 hours on 4 hours of sleep...


Post# 698959 , Reply# 25   8/26/2013 at 06:29 (3,887 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
You'll Be Fine:

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After you've gotten some rest, you can deal with one thing at a time, and you'll get the machine back in shape little by little.

The first thing, obviously, is a coupler. After that, you can assess each issue in turn, and we'll help.

Please do not throw in the towel because of parts that are broken or missing. Some parts are harder to find than others, but sooner or later, they all surface. Get familiar with using the Super Shopper forum to put out BOLOs on stuff you need.

One last thing: Things may look daunting at this point, but you have actually already done the hard part. Just finding a dream machine is very difficult sometimes, as you know.

Congratulations, and let us know if we can help.


Post# 698968 , Reply# 26   8/26/2013 at 07:54 (3,887 days old) by mitch (Atlanta)        
Looks good!

A little TLC and you will be washing in no time. I wonder if the china guard can be mended with some sort of epoxy. I bought a Superba Monterey (21 series) last summer--made after Whirlpool aquired Hobart, but still very much like a Hobart built dishwasher. I have it in a utility room off the carport and it has come in so handy as a second DW. I used it last night after a marathon grilling session and am, as always, blown away with how well it cleans!

Good luck!


Post# 699066 , Reply# 27   8/26/2013 at 16:41 (3,887 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I've already found a constant rinse arm and I think I have an upper basket lined up.. I want to take the basket off but I wanna run the washer a few times and make sure moisture is put back in the plastic because I don't want it to break.. I'm off to ace hardware to see if I can find the coupler .
(since this didn't post before I left, Ace Hardware calls the coupler a Large Dishwasher Quick Connect. I got the last one on the hook if you can believe that!)

I won't throw in the towel... After I just simply wiped it down this morning, I was already pleased with my purchase.. I got rid of the smell of her garage.. Bleh!

I'm gonna buy a cheap sander and do some large grit sanding, then fine grit and redo the oil on the top. I just still honestly can't get over how heavy this thing is..... I'll post some pics when I get back from the hardware store.


Oh, I spent a whole whopping 7 dollars and bought anything related to kds-58 and 18 in the literature section. I've had a print service print them for me so I have paper.

(This is after I came back)

I noticed when I hooked the water up and ran a rinse only cycle, I heard a lot of thudding in the inside as the water started to pump.. I kept opening the dishwasher and I don't think my bottom arm is moving at all.. Do I need to oil anything?


Post# 699096 , Reply# 28   8/26/2013 at 19:09 (3,887 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

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Make sure that the dishwasher is filling up sufficiently. There was a thread with photos to show how high the water level should come up to on the pump screen, but I can't seem to find it right now. One thing that I had to do when I got my KDS-58 was remove the water-saving disc in the faucet quick connect that I bought... once I did that, then the water would fill to the right level.

One thing I noticed from your pictures is that you appear to be missing the course filter. It's a plastic filter that snaps into the pump base to prevent large items from getting down into the pump, such as a stray utensil.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO barcoboy's LINK


Post# 699099 , Reply# 29   8/26/2013 at 19:17 (3,887 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

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The picture of the stray wire hanging down... is that hanging under center of the bottom of the front panel? If so, it could be a wire going to one of the detergent dispenser bi-metals. You can take the front panel off by removing four screws on the inside edge of the door. While you're in there, you should take a look at the condition of the back side of the detergent dispenser to see if it is leaking. I had to change a couple of O-rings in mine when I got it... very easy to do, and costs only pennies.

Here's a thread I started after I changed mine.




CLICK HERE TO GO TO barcoboy's LINK


Post# 699100 , Reply# 30   8/26/2013 at 19:19 (3,887 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)        
after

after letting the hot water sit awhile and you hit cansel/drain did the timer rapid advance to the end of the dry cycle then pump the water to the sink?

Post# 699162 , Reply# 31   8/26/2013 at 22:58 (3,886 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Ok, with me asking about oiling stuff... LOL.. when I would move the arms freely they had a lot of drag.. The bushings were dry... Even in water they were dry...

I remembered seeing a post somewhere about a wash with olive oil in the water... I now can't find it and don't recall what it was for.. I ran 3 cycles with some random stuff, a stainless tea kettle, a fryer basket, a plastic lid and some other random stuff that was sitting in my furnace room and were coated with dust in and out... Nothing was getting clean.. water wasn't reaching stuff.. this proved the arms weren't moving... I was thinking there has to be oil or something in these bushings.. That post came to mind yet again so I grabbed some cooking oil and dumped a third of a cup in the wash water, let it run and I sat next to it reading the service manual and all of a sudden i hear a woooooosh and a whirr and you could hear the alternating sound of water as the arms spun... Now everything slides in and out smooth, the trays don't drag and the arms spin freely...

On that note, I have to replace either the guard on the middle arm or the entire basket... Also, my flow-thru fan doesn't seem to work.. Theres no air movement at the bottom of the door above the service plate and I don't hear anything kick on... I'll take it apart and see if it just needs to be oiled..

I do want to take the pump motor out and go have it serviced just for good measure.. I am going to get rid of the cord winder and put a heavier duty cord on because that cord gets too warm for my personal comfort. And I'll probably put new hoses on the inlet and drain.


Post# 699169 , Reply# 32   8/26/2013 at 23:37 (3,886 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.))        
The bakelite hub

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On the Hydrosweep lower arm could be worn out or broke.  The thudding you heard was likely the wash arm jumping up and hitting the lower rack. When this happens the majority of the water is deflected back into the wash tank never reaching the arms.   Also any water spraying from the lower arm cleans only part of the rack as it won't turn.  My mother's KDP 20 developed this issue.  A new lower wash arm should fix it, it did in her machine.

WK78 


Post# 699170 , Reply# 33   8/26/2013 at 23:50 (3,886 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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As far as the middle arm goes, all I really need is a new support.. ... I took the rack out, and figured out that with the parts that are broken on it, it makes it bind up with the arm... I broke the other leg free and the middle arm spins freely... I don't need the whole rack just the support.. I've got the constant rinse arm on order but I'm gonna have him hold that until I find out whats wrong with the dryer.. I'm gonna take that off tonight if I can hoist up the machine and take the part with me to work tomorrow to test it... I should find a ceiling crane for this machine...

I am absolutely in love with this machine... The more I monkey with it the better it seems to work... It sounds like the one mom had when I was a kid.. I could lay down on that cement floor and fall asleep listening to it... It brings me such a calm to sit there and listen to it work.. I love hearing the timer advance :-)

Oh, the detergent doors all work, I haven't taken the panel off yet to see whats back there but they open on their own.. The RA dispenser works too.. I filled her up with some jet dry.

The one thing I truly am in love with on this machine is the cast iron tub.. They don't make them anymore and its a shame... The tub retains a lot of heat so as the cycle progresses it only gets hotter... The tub also gives the machine a nice warmth too..

This was totally worth the trip yesterday... I hope I get many many years out of this machine...

Oh, Check my photo library again, I put more pics in.

With my working at a vacuum store, I hear bearings starting to go all the time and have gotten used to the way motors should sound... This motor doesn't sound bad, but I think it needs a bearing service in the next year... Is this a serviceable motor?


Post# 699191 , Reply# 34   8/27/2013 at 02:46 (3,886 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
Whirlykenmore, I think you are right.. I should replace the hydrosweep and the post it sits on... :/. Does that thing just sit in that hole or what does it do? What is the barbed part for?





You may want to turn the sound down... but... from watching other videos, I can't hear their timer as loud as mine... Is that normal ? LOL


Post# 699192 , Reply# 35   8/27/2013 at 02:48 (3,886 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
Barcoboy, I'll take the cover off and see what that wire is... And I'll see if I can find that part. Thanks for the heads up!

Post# 699196 , Reply# 36   8/27/2013 at 04:31 (3,886 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        
Flo-Thru Drying unit

beekeyknee's profile picture
I suspect that the motor bushings on the drying unit haven't been cared for. This was often over-looked and the motor would seize. If memory serves, the bushings are surrounded by wicking that holds oil to keep the bushings oiled. It dries up over the years and the fan can get noisy and may stop. The wicking needs to be re-saturated with a non-detergent motor oil commonly referred to as turbine oil. Zoom Spout oil is a good choice and the bottle has an extendable spout to reach into tight spaces. Don't know if you're familiar with turbine oil or not. Don't ever use detergent oil, such as your basic 3 in 1 oil, on fans or other devices with high speed spinning rotors. The detergent will varnish on the shaft and cause binding in the bushing.

After the Flo-Thru dryer is operating again it may be noisy because of worn bushings but at least you will know it's running.


Post# 699203 , Reply# 37   8/27/2013 at 06:03 (3,886 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
There are even more pics now... (plus.google.com/photos/112500451...)

Anyone know how that stupid air diffuser is supposed to be set up? I don't get which side of the round disc is supposed to be up... Since the dome of the disc was down, I decided to flip it over and see what happens... Doesn't work right now anyways...

I was monkeying around with the blower motor and decided to check the switches because I noticed the Energy Saver one pushed easier than the others... The Service manual said to start at that then go to the motor.. I took the panels off and was playing with the switch and noticed how there was no resistance... I took the switch apart and the copper part that completes the blower heater circuit was bent past functioning.. I bent it all back together and it works.. As far as the blower, I dunno I was messing with stuff and put all back together and it started working. It is out of balanced and grinding but at lest I know its on. I'll 'borrow' a zoomspout from work tomorrow. :-)

I found a leak.. The valve on the drain leaks.. not a large leak but a few drips every time it opens and shuts the valve. Nothing major..


Post# 699211 , Reply# 38   8/27/2013 at 07:25 (3,886 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
My Energy Saver dry button also pushes in much easier than the rest of the buttons... I'm thinking that is normal. However, the blower motor should run in the dry cycle regardless of whether or not the button is pressed; the button only controls whether the heating element comes on or not during drying.

Glad you like your machine. I love mine too since I got it. They are heavy, aren't they? The last dishwasher I installed I was able to wrap my arms around and carry it into the house by myself... not this one! Even with a furniture dolly I barely made it up the three steps into my kitchen by myself.

I love the sound of the sani heater when it kicks in during the last rinse... sounds like somebody put the kettle on for some coffee or tea!


Post# 699272 , Reply# 39   8/27/2013 at 14:36 (3,886 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

beekeyknee's profile picture
The KD 18 series service manual in the Automatic Ephemera section might be of help to you. The dome of the round disc is supposed to be down. The air diffuser assembly is quite simple but since I can't see what's causing the problem it's hard to advise.

Post# 699329 , Reply# 40   8/27/2013 at 19:08 (3,886 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
The service manual doesn't have the diffuser listed in it... The disk goes dome side down? it makes the fan whine louder and doesn't move to let air pass.. I don't get how this thing functions ... I mean there is the cover, the round disk a support bracket and the tube it mounts to... but its like someone squished this stuff... I'll have to take more pics of it.. And I'm taking a zoom spout home tonight cause I know for a fact the fan didn't run last night so I'll try oiling it.

The place where I was hoping to get my parts from doesn't have the hydrosweep... Is there a way to service this one so it works properly? are the surfaces supposed to have grit or be smooth? ... What is the crisscross cuts in the shaft for? Does something grab a hold of that or whats its purpose?

There has got to be a way to service the arms.


Post# 699521 , Reply# 41   8/28/2013 at 14:48 (3,885 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
In my album, photos 47-51 are of a KDI-58 I found for $100.00... I didn't think to take pics of the inside, but the china guard is in tact and he said the machine was restored and in great condition... (the bottom shows a leak of some kind) I figure for $100 it'd be worth it just for parts... What do you guys think? I'll go back later today and get some more pics. He's gonna hold it for me till I get paid. He is also closing his store so he said he'd go through his stuff and find all the parts for that era kitchenaid dishwasher and give them to me if I bought that machine. The top is in great condition.. Just needs a bit of TLC but isn't warped.

This was the store I wanted to go to when I first started my quest but he broke his hip and was out of commission for a while... They just had their 65th year in business anniversary.

He also has a F&P DishDrawer set that hes gonna sell to me reasonably so I can give that to mom for her birthday!

(plus.google.com/photos/112500451...)


Post# 699593 , Reply# 42   8/28/2013 at 20:22 (3,885 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
52-54 are pics of the interior.. Not as pristine as I was thinking now that I took a second look.. Maybe I'll offer 75 lol.

I've got a Wash Arm support on order, and maybe one of the machines I'll convert to the current hobart arm system...

I just wonder what KA stuff he is hiding in his storage.


Post# 699881 , Reply# 43   8/30/2013 at 00:08 (3,883 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
Well, lol I jumped the gun and bought the KDI, took the wash arm support, the wash arm and the heated dry unit off the machine today and put the support on and cleaned the blower up and put that on.. My KDS is in so much better shape... the two compared mine looks brand new... I'm gonna see if I can fix my blower unit and align the fan as my unit is spotless on the inside...

The wash arm from the KDI is cracked and has a washer or something flinging around in one of the arms.. :/ So I am using my arm on that support... Oh, and this support must have been a replacement or something because it has a circular clip holding the stem in place and the two screws on the crown of the support are security screws with head I have never seen before.. Hopefully this lasts a while..

You can tell its really getting after it when there is enough water being pumped... I'm gonna change the china guard this weekend and hopefully my constant rinse arm gets here this week and this machine will be good to go...

I may take the front wheel bar off the KDI and put it on mine because its not dented

I understand what you meant, barcoboy, about the dry cycle sounding like a tea kettle... Its a nice sound.

It's gonna take me a bit to get used to loading this machine but I'm already on my 3rd load of random stuff :)


Post# 699891 , Reply# 44   8/30/2013 at 01:40 (3,883 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

You're making excellent progress, and it's clear you're energized over restoring your Superba to proper working order.

 

I have always found loading a two-armed KA to be fairly intuitive.  On the lower rack, large plates will only fit in the front-to-rear formation on the left side and everything else can go pretty much wherever.

 

I'm still having a time of it with getting a loading routine down for my recently acquired Miele.  I suppose if I just start to approach it like a well-disciplined German, it will come to me.

 

Here's a shot of the results in my ISE series 22 clone that was loaded down after having guests for dinner:


Post# 699892 , Reply# 45   8/30/2013 at 01:44 (3,883 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Here's a different load where it was a total free-for-all on the top rack:


Post# 700749 , Reply# 46   9/3/2013 at 00:47 (3,879 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture

I've completely fallen in love with this machine LOL... I'm single, live in a studio apartment and have managed to use this guy over 3 times a day since I fixed the wash arm. Just trying to figure out how to fill the racks with all my stuff.

It holds all the sizes of my cutting boards.

 

From AutomaticWasher.org

 

Curious question: How many of you wash your enameled cast iron in the dishwasher?

 

From AutomaticWasher.org

 

I really like how deep the Top rack can get :-)

 

From AutomaticWasher.org

 

I'm trying to decide what cleans better, cascade powder or my melaleuca detergent.

 

I just need the constant rinse arm to arrive and this machine will be complete.

 

I do appreciate all the help, information and support you guys gave. I wouldn't have found this one or tried this if it weren't for the wealth of knowledge on this forum! :-) On a side note, SteveT, if you happen to see this, I sent an email your way (the one listed on your profile), I had a few questions for ya if you have a moment.

 

The next on my find list is a Miele Futura Diamond. I'm hoping to build a house soon when Lot prices come down and after looking at my storage unit the other day, it seems I am building my house from the inside out.


Post# 700751 , Reply# 47   9/3/2013 at 01:09 (3,879 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

I wash enameled cast iron in the dishwasher without any hesitation.

 

Three loads a day for a single guy?  You sound like a normal, healthy male to me.  ;-)


Post# 701045 , Reply# 48   9/4/2013 at 06:36 (3,878 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture

Heh you should see what I can accomplish when I'm on a day off :P

 

How do you keep the cast iron rims from rusting?

 

Oh, and I just learned something... I can't use liquid detergent in this machine because it leaks out of the cups when you close the door... :/ I was looking at the differences between my machines and noticed the cup on the edgestar had a seal on it.. Then I noticed I hadn't started the KA yet and opened the door and saw that all the soap leaked out ... :/ Oh well lol... Guess that solves the questions I had about what detergent to use.


Post# 701114 , Reply# 49   9/4/2013 at 10:56 (3,878 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

I don't own any cast iron cookware that has lids, if that's what you meant.  I have a Copco enameled casserole dish that belonged to my mom.  Putting it through the dishwasher hasn't harmed it at all.


Post# 701390 , Reply# 50   9/5/2013 at 15:03 (3,877 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
I put the china guard on the middle arm today. I stole it off my donor machine.

Also stole the basket :-)

I've noticed if I don't close this guy right in the middle on the top of the door, he doesn't seem to latch all the way and I have a flood. Thankfully I have it near a floor drain...

Now I just need to get my constant rinse arm, and I guess I need to find something to 'dop' onto the racks because I noticed pin sized spots of rust starting on the bottoms.

OH! I also learned today that I can raise the rack to the very top hole on the adjustable part. That makes it way more convenient now! I do wish I could run the machine without the top arm, there are a few... *items* I wanna run through but they are too tall...

... Something I was wondering though, and don't have the means to find out anymore, but would a standard tray from a commercial washer fit in this? Like say a tray without tines? :-)


Post# 819601 , Reply# 51   4/16/2015 at 21:39 (3,289 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
Well, I figure if I'm gonna pull a thread from the dead it should be this one :-)

I have been using my samsung front loader lately... While waiting on the fill so I can shut the hot water off to the cold inlet, my KDS58 looked so abandoned and alone so I started feeling sappy...

Some of you know I've been trying to give him away to reclaim some space...

Well anyways, I gave in and took the front panel off to see if my shorting culprit was what had been mentioned before --- I should have taken pics, but the soap dispenser has been leaking and the main wash bi-metal was getting wet and shorted out.

Any ideas where I can get a non-leaking dispenser? While I'm at it, is the top most spinner available as well?

Oddly, I think it'd be easier for me to give away my new Maytag Dishwasher than my KDS. I dunno why I get so attached to things.

I think I'm going to re-shuffle a few things... The Maytag can go out to the Furnace room where the Samsung is sitting and I'm gonna put the KDS in my kitchen again. I keep snooping through threads and I miss hearing him roar to life. I wished I had some pics of the Hotpoint SxS I was given that I took to work with me. There's just something about appliances from years ago...

I suppose if anything, I can justify keeping him as the KDS-58 File Cabinet. ;-) That Green beast of a machine that was posted is so dreamy!


Post# 819613 , Reply# 52   4/16/2015 at 23:52 (3,288 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
*gasp* had the answer right under my nose. Thanks again Barcoboy!!!

www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...


Post# 819653 , Reply# 53   4/17/2015 at 06:48 (3,288 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
Don't thank me... thank the other people on this site who helped me fix my dispenser. All I did was ask a question and gather some information, then write about my experience.

Hope your KDS-58 comes roaring back to life real soon!


Post# 819678 , Reply# 54   4/17/2015 at 08:30 (3,288 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        
What year?

joeypete's profile picture
This one (with a cool Lady Kenmore range) is listed in NH. What year/model is it? Id love to have it!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO joeypete's LINK on Nh Craigslist


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 4         View Full Size
Post# 819808 , Reply# 55   4/17/2015 at 21:45 (3,288 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        
KDS-16

toploader55's profile picture
Late 60's early seventies.

TOL. Great Cleaners Just watch your racking


Post# 819812 , Reply# 56   4/17/2015 at 22:55 (3,287 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
It looks spotless. Amazing.

What do you mean by racking? Like how you place the items?


Post# 819868 , Reply# 57   4/18/2015 at 11:05 (3,287 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Leaky Det Dispensers in KD17-21 DWs

combo52's profile picture

Some folks have had luck rebuilding these DDs, they should also be mounted upside down to prevent short and fire hazards, this way if they ever leak in the future the detergent laden water will not leak on live electrical parts.

 

The KA DW for sale NH is a KDS-16, built between 1968 and 1970, these are my favorite one arm KA DWs, you have to watch your loading because of the lack of an upper wash arm.


Post# 819985 , Reply# 58   4/19/2015 at 06:20 (3,286 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
DD Upside Down

chachp's profile picture

That's a great idea!  I never would have thought of that.  I guess I always thought they had to go in exactly as they were designed.  When I read this post about the DD I wondered why they would design them that way but never thought about turning it around.

 

The other thing I always wondered is why they didn't just use a solenoid to control the DD doors like they did in the earlier models?  Wouldn't that be less complicated than the bimetal solution?

 


Post# 819990 , Reply# 59   4/19/2015 at 07:08 (3,286 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KA DW DDs

combo52's profile picture

WP turned them upside-down on the KD22 models after they reviewed how many fires and other problems KA had had in the past decade or so when they bought out KA, I have done the same thing on many machines that I have worked on or rebuilt and resold.

 

The bi-metal openers for the DDs are much cheaper and probably more reliable than a solenoid, also solenoids can be NOISY Buzz y etc. The DUMB thing that KA did with their bi-metal DD openers was wiring them in series with the main motor instead of the water heater element.

 

They did this because at the time KA started using BMO for their DDs they were building KD-17 series DWs and only the TOL DW had heaters. Using the main motor as a load dose not provide a constant load, so when the main wash filter was dirty the DD BMs would not open the dispenser doors and then cleaning performance really went to hell fast.

 

WP also corrected this design problem on the KD-23 series.

 

John L.


Post# 820706 , Reply# 60   4/24/2015 at 01:25 (3,281 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
JOHN

jetcone's profile picture

Is the heating element on the whole cycle on the 17-22 series? Otherwise you couldn't open the BM's.

 

 


Post# 820753 , Reply# 61   4/24/2015 at 09:02 (3,281 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Heating Element Used As A Bi-Metal Load

combo52's profile picture

Hi Jon, KA 17 and 18 series DWs did not have water heating elements on any but the TOL models, although they could have used the dry heater if they wanted.

 

The water heater element would not need to be on for the whole cycle for it to be used to open the DD, the timer is clever enough to just turn on the heater for 60 seconds while sending the heaters load current through the DD BM it wants to open.



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