Thread Number: 49513
Dryer Fire Safety |
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Post# 716055   11/18/2013 at 12:19 (3,782 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Ran across this a few mins ago, new UL safety standards supposedly to take effect 3/20/2013. The article is dated Dec 2009. CLICK HERE TO GO TO DADoES's LINK |
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Post# 716065 , Reply# 1   11/18/2013 at 14:21 (3,782 days old) by GeorgeCT (Fairfield, CT)   |   | |
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I'm sure these standards can be met but at what cost (passed on to us)?
Used to be dryers were the ceaper of the two laundry machines you could buy but now they match washer prices. With this new UL update I suspect dryer prices my become higher than their washer counter part. Will some manufactures just drop dryer line models. I see a come back to the good old close line (which isn't a bad thing). |
Post# 716161 , Reply# 2   11/19/2013 at 00:26 (3,782 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
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Expect old dryers from swap shops to be a "hot" commodity.These rules are too strigent to be practical.The dryers would be too costly to build and to buy.Who wraps their dryer in cheescloth while using it? |
Post# 716189 , Reply# 4   11/19/2013 at 02:17 (3,782 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Oy. I've been running dryers since 1954 and never got so much as a blister from one. Blister temp is prolonged exposure above 130F. What fabric combusts at 130F? NONE. Virtually NOTHING combusts at 130F. Not even gasoline!
Or 165F, the temperature where a turkey is done and the average dryer temperature. Happy thanksgiving. Or 185F, the highest 'normal' dryer temp. Or 210F, where almost all overtemp thermos shut down. This is a bunch of impotent bureaucrats trying to make themselves look like they're doing something. |
Post# 716991 , Reply# 8   11/22/2013 at 01:02 (3,779 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Umm, 'UL' stands for United Lawyers. That is, if mfr meets their criteria it becomes very difficult to sue mfr successfully. Mfrs are much less interested in product integrity than in the integrity of their legal defenses.
A good product sells X many, as only a few consumers can even recognize a good product. A good LAWSUIT on the other hand, negates the profits of many good products for the sake of one person who managed to misuse theirs destructively. Yes, I know that paragraph is an exaggerated simplification. Example, Boeing 747 was a good product but the cargo door latch design was defective and killed a handful of people (out of millions it did NOT kill) through absolutely no fault of their own. But the FAA had certified it airworthy and the NTSB blamed the cargo loader for shutting it incorrectly. Well wait a tick. If it was designed correctly it would be impossible to shut it incorrectly. In the only case where NTSB took their judgement back and issued a revised one, they found the design defective, ordered it redesigned and retrofitted. Because a New Zealander whose son was a victim had the resources to have the broken door retrieved from the bottom of the Pacific and analyzed unarguably. Upon seeing the failure mode, a first-semester engineering student with any talent at all would say "that can't work". Yet with FAA approval and other substantive evidence of the problem, NTSB initially did the 'United Lawyers' thing to cover the industry in defiance of the truth. Here's the Wiki on United 811. I don't know if it goes into the backstory of how NTSB was forced to recant, something that never happened before or since. CLICK HERE TO GO TO arbilab's LINK |
Post# 717052 , Reply# 9   11/22/2013 at 11:51 (3,778 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 717084 , Reply# 10   11/22/2013 at 15:19 (3,778 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)   |   | |
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Indeed the followers of this site are largely experts and it is no surprise that your appliances (mine too) haven't given us much trouble as we know so much about maintaining them correctly.
However there are so many other causes of dryer fires that the average consumer wouldn't reasonably anticipate. What about gas leaks, manufacturing defects, flammable items left in clothing accidentally, items that disintegrate in the dry cycle, items saturated with household liquids that didn't wash out entirely, heating-element sag, natural failure of old thermostats, and especially - incompetent repair? Wrapping an appliance in cheesecloth is used to detect extension (the transfer of fire to items external to the appliance). Containment of fire to the appliance itself (and hopefully self-extinguishment) is important so this test is crucial. Losing a clothes dryer to fire is bad enough but setting fire to the room is worse when the appliance's cabinet fails. I wouldn't agree that old dryer designs had no problems. Actually I think they are more problematic as unexpected failures occur as they exceed their expected lifespan. I am aware of multiple thermostat failures in the same dryer. Don't expect the high-limit to always save your butt. Just my two cents of course. However I think all manufacturers need to be poked from time to time to keep heating appliances SAFER lest they cost-down a bit too far but just under the radar. |
Post# 717120 , Reply# 11   11/22/2013 at 17:59 (3,778 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 717226 , Reply# 13   11/23/2013 at 07:51 (3,777 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 717241 , Reply# 14   11/23/2013 at 09:38 (3,777 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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I've seen a YT video from a commercial company that have dryers that would do just that: douse the burning clothes with a intense mist of water sprayed right into the drum.
What I find interesting about US dryers is that like 99% of them are vented, yet the lint screens are sometimes just made out of a coarse metal mesh (think Whirpool with lint screen on top). European dryers have sreens made from very fine nylon (?). Wouldn't it make sense to add finer filters to US dryers or would that reduce their strong airflow too much? Alex |
Post# 717252 , Reply# 15   11/23/2013 at 10:24 (3,777 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)   |   | |
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To spill the beans a bit, I am a certified fire investigator including specialized training on clothes dryer fires. I am not employed by any manufacturer. Maybe at a wash-in we can kick around dryer safety particularly vintage dryers. You bring what you know to the table and I'll bring mine... Could make for an interesting transfer of knowledge.
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Post# 717288 , Reply# 17   11/23/2013 at 16:25 (3,777 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)   |   | |
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UL listing isn't mandatory however there are other certification laboratories. UL is likely the best known.
It still means something to me as I know the device will have been reviewed. However for many people - and probably the younger generation - they don't know what UL is or its value IMHO. I used to see UL commercials, maybe it's time they toot their horn again. |
Post# 717316 , Reply# 18   11/23/2013 at 19:53 (3,777 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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I was really disappointed in many of the responses to this interesting posting By Glen. This test makes a lot of sense and for many of you 2nd guessing and making fun of something that you do not understand makes this site not look serious about appliances.
Clothing can catch fire just sitting in a clothes dryer or even sitting in a laundry basket. These safety features have already gone into effect and no one has been harmed by them, in fact since dryers started adding safety thermal fuses in the early 80s and several other safety improvements many lives and THOUSANDS of homes have been saved from dryer fires. Dryer fires Do Not start in duct work, they can be spread through the duct work. Water is an excellent way to put out a fire even an electrical fire, Water is a VERY poor conductor of electricity. Many of the collectors on this site would be the first ones to complain if companies started to make all plastic Clothes Dryers, sensible standards like these give the manufacturers a great incentive to keep building STEEL dryers. John L. |
Post# 717372 , Reply# 19   11/24/2013 at 08:05 (3,776 days old) by Easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)   |   | |
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. . . my salesman told me that F&P were going to discontinue the top load dryer because they would not be able to comply with the new fire rules. Jerry Gay |
Post# 717389 , Reply# 20   11/24/2013 at 10:42 (3,776 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Post# 717512 , Reply# 21   11/24/2013 at 20:26 (3,776 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 717525 , Reply# 22   11/24/2013 at 21:43 (3,776 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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What a great idea and I always felt that so-called steam dryers were a silly idea, maybe if manufactures incorporate this technology into home models the insurance will start giving you a credit on your insurance premium for steam dryers.
I our area homes [ even single family ] have been required to have sprinkler systems for over 20 years and every laundry room has a sprinkler head over the washer and dryer although a built-in system would work faster and cause less mess and damage. I LOVE technology and how it has helped us lead so much safer and productive lives. John L. |
Post# 717803 , Reply# 23   11/26/2013 at 02:38 (3,775 days old) by qualin (Canada)   |   | |
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I think this is a great idea. Maybe steam drying is a bit of a gimmick, but if this has the potential of saving lives and preventing property damage, then I'm all for it. I would certainly consider spending a bit extra on a dryer if it had this feature. |
Post# 717833 , Reply# 25   11/26/2013 at 10:53 (3,774 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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Rex,
Define "Good conductor", compared to a piece of Teflon water is a good conductor compared to any metal its VERY bad. I just stuck the probes of my Fluke DMM into some fresh drawn tap water here at at ~1" spacing I got about 2Meg Ohm between them. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be a "good" conductor, but yes it does conduct. The example of using water to cool a tube that has many kilovolts of plate voltage does require water that is non-ionized. But the point being made was that you can use water to put out a dryer fire as we are talking about very low voltage (by comparison). There is a big difference between standard household line voltage and 10Kv! I wouldn't hesitate for a second to turn a hose on an electrically live dryer fire, but if it were the local power sub-station, I'd probably run away! |
Post# 718016 , Reply# 27   11/27/2013 at 01:26 (3,774 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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"I wouldn't hesitate for a second to turn a hose on an electrically live dryer fire"
Just don't hold a metal hosefront nozzle and stand on wet concrete in your bare feet at the same time. 'Your conductivity may vary'. Around 2005, my power went out accompanied by a loud distant explosion. I drove to the neighborhood substation where a 138kV transformer was merrily ablaze. The fire department was there but they were NOT hosing it down. Credit to Austin electric, despite this major distribution disruption (the transformer was destroyed) they had the lights back on in a half hour. How? Manually operated crossover switches every several blocks allow the 7.2kV feed to be connected to an alternate substation. Not all utilities are so diligently prepared. The first month I was in DFW the power was out longer than it had been CUMULATIVELY in Austin over 19 years. Not a tornado, not an ice storm, most 3-hour outages occurred in clear calm weather. See 'management, competence thereof'. |
Post# 718043 , Reply# 29   11/27/2013 at 07:29 (3,773 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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All this discussion of water being applied to hi-voltage [ 1000 volts or more ] fires has nothing to due with dryer fires, as my brother Phil says there would be no problem taking the garden hose to a flaming clothes dryer [ I would even do this in bare or soaking wet feet ] The greatest voltage potential in an electric dyer is just 120 volts to ground. Now granted I am not going to wrestle the dryer away from the wall while standing in water, but I am certainly not going to waste valuable time putting out the fire running around looking for a circuit breaker or trying to unplug it if I have a hose available.
I think that the fire safety experts that REQUIRE a water sprinkler head over EVERY dryer installation in new housing, without requiring an electrical shut-off before the sprinkler activates know a little more than most of us. John L. |
Post# 718044 , Reply# 30   11/27/2013 at 07:29 (3,773 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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All this discussion of water being applied to hi-voltage [ 1000 volts or more ] fires has nothing to due with dryer fires, as my brother Phil says there would be no problem taking the garden hose to a flaming clothes dryer [ I would even do this in bare or soaking wet feet ] The greatest voltage potential in an electric dyer is just 120 volts to ground. Now granted I am not going to wrestle the dryer away from the wall while standing in water, but I am certainly not going to waste valuable time putting out the fire running around looking for a circuit breaker or trying to unplug it if I have a hose available.
I think that the fire safety experts that REQUIRE a water sprinkler head over EVERY dryer installation in new housing, without requiring an electrical shut-off before the sprinkler activates know a little more than most of us. John L. |
Post# 718242 , Reply# 31   11/28/2013 at 01:23 (3,773 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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I've accidentally watered a 120V socket with a hose in bare feet on concrete and while it may or may not be life threatening depending on circumstances it is NOT comfortable.
Yes thanks, we KNOOOOW a dryer is only 120V to ground and that kV powerlines are irrelevant in that context. But kVs make better stories. Now we know that NFPA says dryers AND washers cause one structure fire out of 22. So they definitely happen and you don't want that. But has anyone said WHY? As in root cause? I've never seen one firsthand or heard of one secondhand (media/statistics is third hand). The limit thermos are already redundant. Are BOTH of them failing in the closed position? Is the machine misoperated, as in flammable solvent residue or clogged lint trap? We're glomming gas and electric together in these stats. How many are gas leaks? My furnace had one, caught on inspection, but even so it never blew up. IOW, what says what's being added actually addresses an actual cause? Can't outlaw stupidity. The autoignition point of cotton is 765F. For gasoline it's 475–536F. A dryer can get THAT HOT and just keep going? And the owner/operator never knows anything is wrong? Well that I'll concede. In a population, unfathomable stupidity exists. Nevermind me, I'm just an unemployed failure analysis engineer with a fairly healthy streak of skepticism when it comes to regulatory decrees. Ya know, FAA certified a number of commercial aircraft with glaring design deficiencies that ended up killing people. |
Post# 718261 , Reply# 32   11/28/2013 at 08:15 (3,772 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)   |   | |
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Just a couple of months ago, a friend of a friend was working out in his garage (he has lots of power tools for wood working). He unplugged a power tool, noticed a spark and then flames from the outlet. He grabbed the garden hose, sprayed it on the outlet and the next thing he knew the flames had travelled along the entire electrical wiring. Within minutes the garage had burnt to the ground. The garage was detached otherwise the house would have burned as well. The 2 cars in the driveway did melt some from the intense heat as did the siding on the house. The firemen told him that you should never use water to put out an electrical fire.....use a fire extinguisher.
Gary |