Thread Number: 49650
1955 GE COMBO Restoration |
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Post# 717625   11/25/2013 at 11:47 (3,804 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717626 , Reply# 1   11/25/2013 at 11:55 (3,804 days old) by hydralique (Los Angeles)   |   | |
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What a beauty, can't wait for the pix! |
Post# 717627 , Reply# 2   11/25/2013 at 11:56 (3,804 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717629 , Reply# 3   11/25/2013 at 12:02 (3,804 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717630 , Reply# 4   11/25/2013 at 12:03 (3,804 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717631 , Reply# 5   11/25/2013 at 12:05 (3,804 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717649 , Reply# 6   11/25/2013 at 13:42 (3,804 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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I'm looking forward to hearing about the transmission operation and the spins between water changes. |
Post# 717670 , Reply# 7   11/25/2013 at 15:24 (3,803 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 717671 , Reply# 8   11/25/2013 at 15:29 (3,803 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 717890 , Reply# 9   11/26/2013 at 16:56 (3,802 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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and Biblically as "they" say!
Yes Tom me too, the tranny looks in fine shape so I let it be for now. All the components on the bottom are now restored or replaced!
This post was last edited 11/26/2013 at 17:15 |
Post# 717892 , Reply# 10   11/26/2013 at 17:07 (3,802 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717893 , Reply# 11   11/26/2013 at 17:09 (3,802 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717894 , Reply# 12   11/26/2013 at 17:11 (3,802 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717896 , Reply# 13   11/26/2013 at 17:13 (3,802 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 717907 , Reply# 14   11/26/2013 at 18:57 (3,802 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 717913 , Reply# 15   11/26/2013 at 19:34 (3,802 days old) by d-jones (Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh Area))   |   | |
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Post# 717937 , Reply# 16   11/26/2013 at 21:49 (3,802 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Wow can't wait to see and hear it running. Next time I come up there we can do competing loads in this and the LKM gas Combo and one of the Bendix Duomatics.
I would imagine that GE got away from the little Gorman-Rupp electric drain pumps so quickly because of durability problems, this style pump was not really built for 90 minute dry cycles. It will be fun to see it run. |
Post# 718042 , Reply# 17   11/27/2013 at 07:22 (3,802 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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get yur butt up here so we can finally finish that LKCombo!!
Why do you think these pumps are so bad? It looks very durable to me, the bearings are in good shape the impeller looks good. That style motor usually runs cooler too. Did you see lots of failures in the field?? Maybe we can ask them whats up with their pumps since they are a global leader--see link.
And get "that Smitty" to place an order dammit!
Eddie - love the new avatar. You on the other hand…well… we'll discuss your Paulophile tendencies in private!
CLICK HERE TO GO TO jetcone's LINK |
Post# 718047 , Reply# 18   11/27/2013 at 07:43 (3,802 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 718049 , Reply# 19   11/27/2013 at 08:27 (3,802 days old) by alr2903 (TN)   |   | |
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Jetcone, your combo is a "looker" the rounded corners of the cabinet are very pleasing to the eye. I am eager to see this one in action. alr |
Post# 718063 , Reply# 20   11/27/2013 at 11:32 (3,802 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Greg, the advantage of living this side of the border is that it's more trouble to slap me than it's worth.. LOL
Jon, if I may, that red switch is the belt breakage switch. The release of tension on the lever it sits in will slide the switch closed in the event of a belt breaking. This will cause the machine to skip the spin and dry portion of the cycle - I learned the hard way that the switch can trip when servicing the machine... Ask Phil how I reacted when I learned that lesson and flipped the switch back to 'open'... |
Post# 718114 , Reply# 21   11/27/2013 at 15:28 (3,801 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 718115 , Reply# 22   11/27/2013 at 15:37 (3,801 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 718276 , Reply# 23   11/28/2013 at 09:46 (3,801 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 718361 , Reply# 24   11/28/2013 at 21:51 (3,800 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)   |   | |
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Post# 718390 , Reply# 25   11/29/2013 at 07:05 (3,800 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 718394 , Reply# 26   11/29/2013 at 08:55 (3,800 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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but I bet the reason they changed was cost not reliability. GE is extremely cost conscious it drives everything there.
A clutch they could machine in one of the shops at GE would be far cheaper than buying another motor from a second tier vendor.
Can't wait to see the scissors mechanism at work since I am so familiar with the moto-tape system!!
Jackie comes next week with a surprise machine for me! Something I do not have in the collection….hint..put your thinking caps on!
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Post# 718397 , Reply# 27   11/29/2013 at 09:14 (3,800 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)   |   | |
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Remember, reliability - or lack thereof - is a cost factor, too. Service calls under warranty were a huge cost for manufacturers in those days, since they were usually handled by the service departments of independent dealers or independently-owned "authorized service centers."
That system put dealers and servicers in charge of what manufacturers spent on warranty service; the dealer or servicer did the work, put in a claim to the manufacturer and then got reimbursed. Since the only way for a dealer or servicer to maintain good customer relations was to make the customer happy, there was a very strong incentive to "game the system" and make the manufacturer pay no matter what. My first real job out of high school was with a Westclox authorized service center, and trust me, Westclox paid for a lot of stuff that it shouldn't have. Making stuff more reliable and making it in-house gave GE more control over those kinds of costs. |
Post# 718400 , Reply# 28   11/29/2013 at 09:23 (3,800 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Making stuff more reliable and making it in-house gave GE more control over those kinds of costs.
It would also simplify the mechanism , less to break. Its amazing how overbuilt the first few Automatics were so that companies could establish a reputation of quality and reliability. And Im not saying simplifying made it cheaper quality wise although there are many cases of that littering the junk piles. But you take the Jetaction washer by the 70's with good materials they had simplified that mechanism just about as far as you could mechanically before the advent of electronic motor controls.
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Post# 718404 , Reply# 29   11/29/2013 at 10:01 (3,800 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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I never saw any other manufacturer use one of these little pumps in a continuous duty application. This type of motor is about the least efficient type oc A/C motor you can build, but I dough that this was the main reason that they stopped using them so quickly. I suspect that was mainly cost of building the machine and reliability of the machine overall.
GE like other manufactures had lots of problems with early Combos and most of these early Combos [ especially in kitchen centers ] were replaced by the mid to later 60s with the newer improved models. By the Y models in 1964 GE had worked out most of the major bugs and I actually think that these later GE combos were about the most reliable American Combos. GE was about the only company that actually dared to sell hundreds of combos to apartment complexes and actually could keep them running with tenants using them for periods of 10 years or more. John L. |
Post# 718532 , Reply# 30   11/30/2013 at 08:04 (3,799 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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those 3 belt machines are workhorses. I remember falling for your black undercounted machine years and years ago. I had to have one in my kitchen!! And you gave me the first avocado one made. Because you said it was the first I can't bring myself to paint it black but maybe this year--charcoal perhaps??
But those shaded pole motors are used extensively in Sub Zero refrigerators and they run for decades, so what gives? Why would Sub Zero use them continually if the design wasn't sturdy like the "63 Frigidaire washers?
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Post# 718537 , Reply# 31   11/30/2013 at 08:43 (3,799 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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those 3 belt machines are workhorses. I remember falling for your black undercounted machine years and years ago. I had to have one in my kitchen!! And you gave me the first avocado one made. Because you said it was the first I can't bring myself to paint it black but maybe this year--charcoal perhaps??
But those shaded pole motors are used extensively in Sub Zero refrigerators and they run for decades, so what gives? Why would Sub Zero use them continually if the design wasn't sturdy like the "63 Frigidaire washers?
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Post# 718541 , Reply# 32   11/30/2013 at 09:56 (3,799 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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It is not so much the motor being SP but little things like the pump seal design, also the one on your combo draws over 100 watts and it can run fairly hot and this impacts bearing life.
The SP fan motors used in most Frost Free refrigerators at one time can easily last for decades, but they are grossly inefficient when you compare power consumed vs work done this is why very few are used any longer in new refs and freezers. I have replaced all the fan motors in my refs and freezes with the new ECM motors with great results. Often the SP motors use 10 times as much power as the new ECM motors, I am surprised with your interest in LED lighting you haven't done this in your SZs. In the refrigerators this saved power really counts because the compressor does not have to run as much to remove all the extra heat that the SP motors produce. In the past ten years I have cut my annual electric consumption at home in 1/2 without giving up any comfort, convenience or walking around in the dark, LOL. |
Post# 718635 , Reply# 34   12/1/2013 at 02:48 (3,798 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 719790 , Reply# 35   12/7/2013 at 14:46 (3,792 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 719791 , Reply# 36   12/7/2013 at 14:47 (3,792 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 719892 , Reply# 37   12/8/2013 at 08:15 (3,791 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 720244 , Reply# 38   12/9/2013 at 19:45 (3,789 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720638 , Reply# 39   12/11/2013 at 16:24 (3,787 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720648 , Reply# 40   12/11/2013 at 16:45 (3,787 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 720683 , Reply# 41   12/11/2013 at 20:04 (3,787 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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too Paul, I didn't blow a fuse but was wondering if the heat relay was dead. But would that also shut the motor down, you would think it would just stop the heat and continue to tumble no?
Its a puzzle. I need to scan the schematic so I can study it in detail.
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Post# 720714 , Reply# 42   12/12/2013 at 00:14 (3,787 days old) by alr2903 (TN)   |   | |
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Jetcone,I hope it is something simple. I am enjoying your thread. Maybe this malfunction is what took it out of service and preserved it until now. alr |
Post# 720753 , Reply# 43   12/12/2013 at 06:32 (3,787 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Oh, that is odd... Jon, was the drive motor running normally when you did the test after the water heater button incident? If the water valve was not energized, I guess you were not able to determine if the timer was still getting power or not...
If you have the GE charts showing the switch contacts being made at various phases of the cycle, you should be able to figure it out. Unfortunately when I did the same exercise I traced the problems I'd been having to a bad timer contact... Switch 'F' was the one that was the problem (and it's still not 100%) on mine! Never a dull moment!! |
Post# 720773 , Reply# 44   12/12/2013 at 08:37 (3,787 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Jon, had another thought: You mentioned that you found a bad connection on the water level control - the control feeds power into the timer, controlling a number of components including the water inlet valves. Check the connections and the actual terminals - the wheels fell off that early '56 combo I found this summer when the water level control went bad on me (one connection literally snapped off from inside the control!)
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Post# 720785 , Reply# 45   12/12/2013 at 09:28 (3,787 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720796 , Reply# 46   12/12/2013 at 11:09 (3,787 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720807 , Reply# 47   12/12/2013 at 11:50 (3,787 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)   |   | |
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Post# 720824 , Reply# 48   12/12/2013 at 14:13 (3,787 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720895 , Reply# 49   12/12/2013 at 20:25 (3,786 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720899 , Reply# 50   12/12/2013 at 20:30 (3,786 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720909 , Reply# 51   12/12/2013 at 20:42 (3,786 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 720978 , Reply# 52   12/13/2013 at 06:24 (3,786 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Hey Jon, if it helps, in the 56 red-black should be coming from the door switch and should be bringing power directly from the connector block. I inadvertently switched the red and red-black wires in my initial rewiring job, thus bypassing the door switch!
This is really interesting - the tan wire to the time darn near drove me crazy when I was attempting to get the combo running the first time around when I had NO wiring diagram or a service manual. I could not get power to blasted timer, so my 'Canadian Bojacques' wiring technique took power from the water level control to the timer. Not pretty but it did work! All that being said, I will second what Phil said about a timer contact staying open.. The contacts supplying power to the timer will 'float' between' two internal switches - in my case the timer had frozen open and the switch hitting the tan wire was not making contact. It's actually still an issue with mine and I'll be attacking that after the holidaze... Feel free to call me this weekend about this - I could write a book about GE combo issues now, I swear!! |
Post# 720984 , Reply# 53   12/13/2013 at 07:21 (3,786 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Jon Jon Jon, you should have never pushed the water heat with no water in the machine, LOL. That wiring splice you found was a field modification that was covered in a service pointer dated ,June 58, LOL In any event do you also have schematic wiring diagram that shows actual current flow ?.
In any event Paul and Jon I am just going to have to come up there [ when things thaw out ] and fix both of these machines. GE combos were one of the simplists combos electrically although GE often did not wire things in a straight forward way like you might expect, so it does leave you scratching your head a little wondering why they did something the way they did. John L. |
Post# 720985 , Reply# 54   12/13/2013 at 07:31 (3,786 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 721050 , Reply# 55   12/13/2013 at 14:00 (3,786 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 721313 , Reply# 57   12/15/2013 at 14:36 (3,784 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I know: -Once I pushed the WATER HEAT button the machine went dead -That the push button switches were badly seized and have since lubricated and checked continuity- it works now -still no power to machine -CB is on -testing now I find one leg to ground is reading 240V and the other 0 _THATS NOT NORMAL! -I found someone had cross wired the legs to the heater relay so that the black leg from supply was energizing NOT the gray to the motor and Black to safety thermo but the yellow leg of the heater coils -when on the diagram it shows the yellow leg from supply should make to the yellow leg of the heater coils. - corrected that to match the wiring diagram - know I have continuity from the Door Switch to Timer Control, Water Valve, Motor, and she is still dead -tested the supply cord it has normal continuity - need to check the belt switch BUT from what I read it only comes into play during the dry cycle not the wash cycle so it shouldn't be a factor, need to check the scissors mechanism maybe i tripped it or knocked a lead off?
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Post# 721316 , Reply# 58   12/15/2013 at 15:16 (3,783 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 721328 , Reply# 59   12/15/2013 at 16:36 (3,783 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I traced the odd 204 V one leg other leg 0 reading back to the internal wiring of my supply plug, 2 wires had come out and joined inside the plug. Once that was repaired she fired right up normal. She has blacktimermotor death - not unexpected!!
All functions into dry work except the heater elements and heater relay. It looks like the belt switch controls the heater relay only not the motor and doctrine states she will keep tumbling even if the heat fails so that clothes won't get scorched as the elements cool. Isolating and powering the heater relay I find it works. I took the elements out of the circuit and tested they both have continuity - good! So I have to assume the thermostat is to blame for not powering the elements. Bugger all. Have not worked on a thermostat before.
Otherwise all functions are go.
This post was last edited 12/15/2013 at 16:57 |
Post# 721424 , Reply# 60   12/16/2013 at 09:58 (3,783 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Sorry to hear that the Combo has succumbed to the dreaded 'blacktimer motor death'!!
Those Ingraham motors are as rare as hen's teeth... Still, you may be able to substitute another motor - I am darn well going to try with the timer that I pulled from that ill-fated early '56 combo I parted out. Jon, is the thermostat in this model a 'one tube' sensor? I tried subbing a later model thermostat (one with two sensor tubes) and while I got my Kitchen Centre Combo to dry, the temperatures were WAY off base. Still, it does not mean that it can't be done!! |
Post# 721434 , Reply# 61   12/16/2013 at 10:22 (3,783 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Paul, I opened up the thermostat today and found the switch contacts were very dirty and are not making contact by a hair.
So that puts me on the fence, because I can't test the thermobulb until the machine gets hot #1 ; and #2 I may try to find a digital solution that will accept the original knob set up CUE John & Jeff here>>>>>>> |
Post# 721435 , Reply# 62   12/16/2013 at 11:03 (3,783 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 721753 , Reply# 63   12/18/2013 at 02:19 (3,781 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 721807 , Reply# 64   12/18/2013 at 10:42 (3,781 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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Post# 721820 , Reply# 65   12/18/2013 at 12:04 (3,781 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Jon, it should be fairly easy to replicate the thermostat for your combo as long as you can get the correct temperature range, these thermostats had a cut off temperature range from about 180F on the lowest end to about 280F on the high or driest setting. It would be very important to have the same range to ever get this machine to function correctly.
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Post# 721876 , Reply# 66   12/18/2013 at 18:26 (3,780 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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a digital control that oscillates between 180 & 280F , is there such a beast??
Just tried the thermostat rebuild guy in CA, he ONLY does stoves and says even the fluids are different for other appliances so its a new design for the washer Jeff John Phil get your thinking caps on !!!
Phil did you ever get me text of a few days ago?
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Post# 721880 , Reply# 67   12/18/2013 at 18:39 (3,780 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 721884 , Reply# 68   12/18/2013 at 19:08 (3,780 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 721885 , Reply# 69   12/18/2013 at 19:09 (3,780 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 721886 , Reply# 70   12/18/2013 at 19:18 (3,780 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 721898 , Reply# 71   12/18/2013 at 20:09 (3,780 days old) by jeff_adelphi (Adelphi, Maryland, USA)   |   | |
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Jon, Is the 2 terminal end of the thermostat a switch that opens with temp rise or is it just controlled by dial position? Hook up an ohm meter to it and turn the dial to see if it opens and closes. If it's temp controlled it should stay closed in all positions. I know the 3 terminal end is a temp controlled SPDT switch.
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Post# 721905 , Reply# 72   12/18/2013 at 20:55 (3,780 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 721906 , Reply# 73   12/18/2013 at 21:02 (3,780 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 721908 , Reply# 74   12/18/2013 at 21:12 (3,780 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 721964 , Reply# 75   12/19/2013 at 08:20 (3,780 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I checked the thermostat today by dialing thru all the options. The 2 contacts you asked about are closed all the time, the dialing only changes the angle at which that flapper bar addresses both contacts, in delicate it rotates away from the 2 contact and rotates towards the 3 contact switch.
In REG & BULKY it rotates the flapper down onto the 3 contact switch.
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Post# 722173 , Reply# 77   12/20/2013 at 10:23 (3,779 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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input.
I think I have repaired the thermostat just by staring at it - no I played around with bending the contact bar ever so slightly and it seems to work electrically. Now the whole machine still plays dead in the dry portion. I have traced that to the timer block, in dry there is no power out of the timer block to the belt switch nor the heater relay nor the condenser valve ( ah I should say if the condenser valve is operative- i haven't checked the windings yet on that one )
Just walking through the Combo...
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Post# 728879 , Reply# 78   1/19/2014 at 19:28 (3,748 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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No power in Dry portion of cycle timer. Paul was lucky his is a 1956 as the SM is available but for my 1955 no such luck! Electrically they are two different dogs!
So tearing down the timer tonight and playing with it I found the same problem Paul found!! Ofcourse on different contacts and colored wires BUT one whole circuit that evidently flows through the water level switch back to the control switches where the 110 enters the machine was dead. It is a double throw contact in the timer like Pauls , it was contacting in one direction but not in the other but only by the slightest amount yet 0 is 0 for electrical contacts. So that is one whole side of the timer diagnosed. Now to check the other side and then put on a working motor then reinstall the timer and do another dry test.
The bad contact seems to have gotten bent back slightly somehow, how inside a timer box is beyond me! But Paul was it contact or the arm that needed to be bent in your machine?
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Post# 728915 , Reply# 79   1/19/2014 at 21:13 (3,748 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)   |   | |
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Post# 729004 , Reply# 80   1/20/2014 at 07:27 (3,748 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 729045 , Reply# 81   1/20/2014 at 11:12 (3,748 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)   |   | |
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Post# 729093 , Reply# 82   1/20/2014 at 15:24 (3,747 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Jon, As Phil said, we monkeyed with the contact arms in the 56 timer (the assumption we were working under was that the position the timer stayed in for over 50 years forced the contact apart). BUT, although the combo did seem to come back to life after this, something went out of alignment again very shortly after and I still get no power to the timer motor after the wash fill phase of the cycle...
I was speaking to Phil about it and he mentioned that this metal may not like flexing so much, so be careful!! |
Post# 729108 , Reply# 83   1/20/2014 at 16:09 (3,747 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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the stationary contacts had bent back away from the moving contacts and today I found 3 other contacts on the other side of the timer block with the same problem. I have worked on many timers and found it better to bend the stationary contacts not the moving ones as there are very specific dimensions that must be maintained between the moving contact and the timer cycle wheel. So now the block seems to be working correctly but the timer motor is dead and I found one last black timer motor that works. I installed that today and NOTHING! I was pissed! The motor was working when I tested it, come to find out the Escapement was jammed up completely with grease that had turned to solid varnish over the last 58 years. I was able to move it with a screwdriver but now the whole shebang is soaking in Gunk B Gone . And the saga continues
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Post# 729118 , Reply# 84   1/20/2014 at 16:37 (3,747 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 729567 , Reply# 85   1/22/2014 at 08:39 (3,746 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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You should have seen the black crap that was loosened and flowed down the drain! But my hurdle was retrofitting the "new" timer motor to the escapement.
The jamming was actually caused by a mismatch between motors and escapements. These machines; it has been my experience that each one has a UNIQUE escapement/timer mechanism. So what I discovered in this unique GE case was the gear shaft was too short on the replacement timer so the drive gear was contacting two sets of wheels and jamming up. I decided for replacement as you will see below instead of trying to jack hammer the new gear up the shaft and thereby damage my only working motor.
Oh an interesting side note I believe this was the last year a GE laundry appliance utilized an Ingram escapement, in 1956 GE created their own timer mechanism called a clamshell which was used right up throughout 1970's. See the shaft difference for you own edification:
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Post# 729569 , Reply# 86   1/22/2014 at 08:43 (3,746 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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surgery was in order- get out your finest tools! I swapped out the gear mechanisms between timers, I have to file down the staking, and cover the motor mechanism so brass filings didn't get in there. The beauty of these early timers is their accessibility and interchangeability. The ones I've worked on that are black all seem to turn CCW, whereas the later silver timers can turn either way at different speeds.
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Post# 729570 , Reply# 87   1/22/2014 at 08:46 (3,746 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 729572 , Reply# 88   1/22/2014 at 08:48 (3,746 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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was relubed with Tufoil , so were the bearings in the timer block, and taking the motor down I was able to give its gear train a lubing too. Everything turns nicely now.
The motor was assembled back onto the timer body and I ran an entire cycle and the switches all seemed to make contact.
Now to reinstall in the machine and give it a dry run.
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Post# 729632 , Reply# 89   1/22/2014 at 15:19 (3,745 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 729710 , Reply# 90   1/22/2014 at 18:49 (3,745 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Every GE Combo ever made used a PR Mallory timer that they sourced from the same.
Every GE TL washer from the very first till sometime in the late 70s, early 80s used a timer that was fully field serviceable that was designed and built by GE. Jon good luck with your rebuild, we are hoping for a complete recovery. John L. |
Post# 729828 , Reply# 91   1/23/2014 at 07:14 (3,745 days old) by alr2903 (TN)   |   | |
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Jetcone, "I have repaired the timer, just by staring at it". Laughing with you, not at you. We all want to see this combo run! I admire your patience. |
Post# 729833 , Reply# 92   1/23/2014 at 07:42 (3,745 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 730394 , Reply# 93   1/25/2014 at 13:08 (3,743 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I was going to use fine machine screws but I found the plate that holds the gear contacts the lid of the timer just under the hex nut so I just snapped the plate back down on the remaining stakes and reassembled and tightened it down. If it moves off its an easy fix and I can get right at the timer motor at the back of the machine.
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Post# 730861 , Reply# 94   1/27/2014 at 05:41 (3,741 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 731982 , Reply# 95   1/31/2014 at 08:15 (3,737 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 732011 , Reply# 96   1/31/2014 at 11:18 (3,737 days old) by alr2903 (TN)   |   | |
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Jetcone, that is some serious heat. Nice to see your combo taking a victory lap. alr |
Post# 732144 , Reply# 98   1/31/2014 at 21:21 (3,736 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 732151 , Reply# 99   1/31/2014 at 22:16 (3,736 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )   |   | |
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Post# 732156 , Reply# 100   1/31/2014 at 22:49 (3,736 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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This and All GE Combos has two heaters, a smaller 1200 watt element and a larger 2800 watt element, the smaller 1200W one is on the top left and is the most visible one in Jon's pictures. Both are used for normal drying at the start of the dry cycle and with a full rated load of ten pounds of cotton towels [ spun at 210 RPMs ] all 4000Ws of heat will be on constantly for at least 45 minutes, once the thromostat trips [ about 280 degrees F ] and the timer starts moving it will switch off the 1200w element and the 2800W element will heat the load again to 280F, this phase will take another 15 minutes or more.
All the while 1/2 gallon of cold water is flowing down on the right inside of the outer tub , which not only condenses all the water being evaporated out of the clothing, but also carries at least 80% of the heat away and all of the lint, dust and other grit right down the drain. The drying temperature is adjustable and can be turned down to as low as 180F for drying delicate items and when the temperature is set for delicate clothing the smaller 1200W element is not used at all. GE combos were very effective dryers and they had to be to dry clothing that was close to being dripping wet. Tom and I found that if a load was re-spun in even a WP BD TL washer the drying time was cut in 1/2. John L. |
Post# 732196 , Reply# 102   2/1/2014 at 07:54 (3,736 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 738109 , Reply# 103   2/27/2014 at 17:51 (3,709 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I worked on the Combo yesterday and for the first time I got it to run on the dry cycle WITHOUT the timer motor engaged !! So big progress on that front. Now it seems to be narrowed down to one glitchy little problem, on dry sometimes I get 220V out of the control thermostat and sometimes I don't. If I can correct this then I can reassemble and try a virgin load!!
I started this thread what? back in ......November??
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Post# 738233 , Reply# 104   2/28/2014 at 10:54 (3,709 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 739577 , Reply# 105   3/5/2014 at 19:17 (3,703 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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but I don't get the calrods on at all so it is not satisfying the thermostat through heat. The control thermo is behaving like its satisfied and I double checked the safety thermo its working on the cold side. Its something inside the thermo since it worked once intermitently. Back to the drawing board OY |
Post# 753082 , Reply# 106   4/27/2014 at 11:13 (3,651 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 753083 , Reply# 107   4/27/2014 at 11:14 (3,651 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 753088 , Reply# 108   4/27/2014 at 11:25 (3,651 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Vid and then onto the "virgin water test"! CLICK HERE TO GO TO jetcone's LINK This post was last edited 04/27/2014 at 11:50 |
Post# 753181 , Reply# 109   4/27/2014 at 16:47 (3,650 days old) by MrLavadoro (Spain)   |   | |
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Wow!! Very good washers, pics and restoration! Thanks for upload photos of the washer! |
Post# 753348 , Reply# 110   4/28/2014 at 06:10 (3,650 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 753367 , Reply# 111   4/28/2014 at 08:54 (3,650 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 753369 , Reply# 112   4/28/2014 at 08:59 (3,650 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 753371 , Reply# 113   4/28/2014 at 09:01 (3,650 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 753671 , Reply# 114   4/29/2014 at 09:51 (3,649 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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after yesterday's testing she has a small punch list.
1) Aim water inlet nozzles for fill & condenser 2) Debug timer connections for timer motor cycle 3) Recheck short to cabinet- I think that is because the entire guts got drenched yesterday by the inlet nozzles spraying water all down the insides. A small punch list after all the work she's had don'tcha think? |
Post# 753812 , Reply# 115   4/30/2014 at 07:09 (3,648 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Sounds pretty minor Jon!! Can't wait to see the next round of progress!!
I've created some pretty interesting grounding situations with leaky machines... THAT may explain a lot... LOL If you have any issues with the fill flume or funnel, let me know; I have the ones from the early 56 combo that got parted out last year. Is the timer not getting power at a specific phase of the cycle? If so, that can be 'normal' - trust me!! |
Post# 754097 , Reply# 116   5/1/2014 at 08:18 (3,647 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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Great Job Jon! What a beautiful machine! Is this the only working 1955 Combo known of? |
Post# 754435 , Reply# 117   5/2/2014 at 13:42 (3,646 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I'll keep the spares in mind but the funnels are brass , I think the problem is me, I removed the entire valve assembly to clean and update and didn't think about how I put it back in place because the funnels are so huge on this machine. OOPS!
I have run the entire cycle and this may interest some of you- there are 5 rinses! But there are no spins between rinses. AND the 5th rinse is with HOT water !!! I would guess to prepare the clothes for the broiler-dry cycle to follow. After the 5th rinse the machine goes into high speed spin - 225 RPMS LOL for a time the drops to a tumble and then if I remember a short spin again before starting dry. |
Post# 754565 , Reply# 118   5/2/2014 at 21:38 (3,645 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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5 Rinses! Awesome! Sounds like a fun machine! |
Post# 757331 , Reply# 120   5/16/2014 at 06:30 (3,632 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757339 , Reply# 121   5/16/2014 at 06:54 (3,632 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 757341 , Reply# 122   5/16/2014 at 06:56 (3,632 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757847 , Reply# 123   5/18/2014 at 08:30 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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What I discovered yesterday really surprised me. The Combo would not engage the timer motor on a full water level switch. I took the machine apart and went through every circuit! I came up empty handed as to any circuit that would engage the timer motor on a full switch. And that is why when I first opened the machine up I found those two wires taped together that I called a bojack move by someone in the past ! See the reply #49 above where there is a picture of this. It turns out John remembered correctly , this was an after factory fix!
It means people!! - that GE built a machine - sent it down the assembly line and discovered AFTER the fact that they hadn't planned a circuit to engage the timer motor on a FILL !! A colossal booboo!
This will be one of the reasons Paul's '56 machine is SO different than my '55 is and why electrically the '55 is the unique oddball of GE machines! So I got rid of the bojack fix as seen in reply #49 and installed a jumper on the timer block which is what should have been done 59 years ago! See the red jumper crossing the timer block with the yellow connector. This circuit carries the signal from the level switch to the timer motor to activate the timer at a full tub of water. Now after electrical testing yesterday it all works.
So hopefully today she will get her virgin load!
I have never seen such a booboo in all my 35 years of modern appliance living. This is a rare one.
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Post# 757851 , Reply# 124   5/18/2014 at 08:36 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757852 , Reply# 125   5/18/2014 at 08:39 (3,630 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 757857 , Reply# 126   5/18/2014 at 09:06 (3,630 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 757881 , Reply# 127   5/18/2014 at 10:08 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757882 , Reply# 128   5/18/2014 at 10:10 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757904 , Reply# 129   5/18/2014 at 10:44 (3,630 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 757914 , Reply# 130   5/18/2014 at 11:50 (3,630 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Robert, GE used the Mallory timers on their pre-1957 dishwashers as well. That's one of the reasons why I was so ticked off that I had pull a working motor out of the 55 GE pull-out dishwasher to revive the 56 combo!
Jon - great detective work! Can we send you back to 1955 to kick someone's behind in Louisville?? LOL |
Post# 757916 , Reply# 131   5/18/2014 at 11:58 (3,630 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Jon, you should never mess with factory approved field wiring corrections, you could have saved 5 months of time on this project. LOL.
All GE combos used Mallory timers, my guess is that they never built enough Combos to warrant designing and building a timer for the combo themselves, See post #90 in this thread. |
Post# 757936 , Reply# 132   5/18/2014 at 13:32 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757937 , Reply# 133   5/18/2014 at 13:34 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 757938 , Reply# 134   5/18/2014 at 13:46 (3,630 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Yes send me back I have a few words to the wise for 1955!!
John- If I had only listened but you know me Mr Hands- On. Actually there were so many problems with this machine I really can't see any short cuts, the one I took kicked me in the butt today! When I rebuilt the water valve I reused one gasket in the WHOLE machine because its a quirky gasket. Well the water valve typical for a Combo restore blew water all down the inside and got the insulation all wet today! So take it apart again and run to the "Hadhware" store to find a new O-ring. Never never never reuse a water gasket!!
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Post# 757960 , Reply# 135   5/18/2014 at 16:25 (3,629 days old) by turquoisedude (.)   |   | |
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Post# 757977 , Reply# 136   5/18/2014 at 17:20 (3,629 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 758304 , Reply# 137   5/20/2014 at 07:27 (3,628 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I taped the virgin wash yesterday. This whole restoration began on Nov 25, 2013 and it finally has come to full operation after 7 months. Combos are complex machines, and they take patience and persistence to get back on their feet. Especially after 59 years leaving the factory floor. It can be a frustrating experience but I wanted the club to see an complete restoration from start to finish and this machine gave a lot of kick back so that you got to see every system completely disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up.
Some interesting differences to this unique machine that set it apart from all later GE Combinations- First it has a transmission not 3 belts, this makes for a quieter machine overall. It has a separate pump motor engaged from the timer. Like the 1956 it has a scissors balance mechanism. Unlike all other Combinations, this machine has 3 baffles in its tub, not 4 not 6. It tumbles & spins counterclockwise only - sorry Chuck! It has 5 Rinses and I discovered yesterday that the first rinse is really a fill/drain. The machine fills and as soon as the water level switch is satisfied the drain motor comes right on. All the other 4 rinses actually tumble for a minute or two. The 5th rinse is a hot water rinse, I'm guessing to reheat the clothes for the Broil-A-Dry cycle to follow. The machine has a Rinse period then followed by a Spin period marked in "Danger - Will Robinson Red". So there are no spins between rinses. The spin is divided into two periods, one long spin with a minute tumble then back to spin to the dry cycle. The dry cycle works on one set point marked by a small moon & bar symbol on the dial. The machine sits there drying until a predetermined set point is reached then the thermostat engages the timer motor again and the machine progresses to cycle end. This load took a little over 50 minutes to dry. Enjoy and thanks for tuning in these past 5 months!
CLICK HERE TO GO TO jetcone's LINK |
Post# 758305 , Reply# 138   5/20/2014 at 07:34 (3,628 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 758309 , Reply# 139   5/20/2014 at 07:56 (3,628 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)   |   | |
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Hi Jon, Does this machine have any cooldown phase an the end of the dry cycle? I remember those serrated copper colored dials. My aunt upstairs had the top load washer with those same dials, but I don't think they lit up...and it was a filter-flo. |
Post# 758310 , Reply# 140   5/20/2014 at 07:58 (3,628 days old) by alr2903 (TN)   |   | |
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Jetcone, Thank YOU. I really appreciated the video. Amazing work on the GE. It shined up like a new penny. Congratulations on a beautiful job. Arthur |
Post# 758319 , Reply# 142   5/20/2014 at 09:08 (3,628 days old) by golittlesport (California)   |   | |
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Post# 758321 , Reply# 143   5/20/2014 at 09:35 (3,628 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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Great Job Jon What a beautiful Combo! Thanks for the fun video! |
Post# 758400 , Reply# 144   5/20/2014 at 15:51 (3,627 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 758542 , Reply# 145   5/21/2014 at 06:55 (3,627 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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John, turquoisedude and PhilR are here and last nite we sat around eating dark chocolate and doing a load so we did a close observation and found that it does have a cool down cycle! After the first set point the burners shut off but the machine is soooo hot by then that it seems it wouldn't cool down but when we drew the towels out at the end they were "nicely warm" not scorching hot. Nothing like what a GE dryer of that era was like. |