Thread Number: 49740
LG WASHER SPIDER CORROSION
[Down to Last]

automaticwasher.org's exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items
Post# 718791   12/2/2013 at 10:22 (1,242 days old) by ONEWAY88 ()        

I HAVE A LG WASHER WM2016CW THAT STARTED MAKING NOISE DURING SPIN CYCLE. i TOOK THE WHOLE WASHER APART AND FOUND THE SPIDER TO BE CORRODED BEYOND RECOGNITION. THIS WASHER IS JUST OVER 3 YEARS OLD. ANYONE ELSE EVER SEE THIS?

I HAD MY WATER TESTED AND MY PH IS A LITTLE LOW BUT EVERYTHING ELSE IS NORMAL. I USE TIDE DETERGENT BUT NEVER USE BLEACH.





Post# 718794 , Reply# 1   12/2/2013 at 10:49 (1,242 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts)        

nmassman44's profile picture
Oh wow! I believe one can get a replacement spider instead of the whole drum assy like have to do for my Frigidaire built GE washer.
Question I have is ...do you wash in cold water alot?


Post# 718795 , Reply# 2   12/2/2013 at 10:49 (1,242 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Yes

mark_wpduet's profile picture
this is going to probably be a busy thread......It has happened a LOT with pretty much most front load washers and *most* all brands have the aluminum spider (including my Whirlpool that almost 9 yrs old)..I do use bleach though.....I don't know why some people have this problem while others don't.. It's a mystery.

Post# 718801 , Reply# 3   12/2/2013 at 12:13 (1,242 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Wow

washman's profile picture
Scary indeed. Was this a FL or HE TL machine?

Post# 718802 , Reply# 4   12/2/2013 at 12:21 (1,242 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA)        

frontloaderfan's profile picture
It looks to me like there's a fairly thick coating of something on the spider, almost filling the indentations in the casting. Perhaps whatever this is helped lead the spider to it's demise?

Post# 718807 , Reply# 5   12/2/2013 at 13:39 (1,242 days old) by ONEWAY88 ()        
spider damage / corrosion

This is a front load washer from LG.

Here is a close up pic.....I can break this aluminum piece with my fingers it is so weak.


Post# 718808 , Reply# 6   12/2/2013 at 13:50 (1,242 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Seems like a LOT of residue of what ever this is on the spider...

Post# 718809 , Reply# 7   12/2/2013 at 13:58 (1,242 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA)        

frontloaderfan's profile picture
That good close-up confirms it for me: there is an extremely thick waxy build-up on that spider. Possibly fabric softener? I'm sure that contributed to the spider literally dissolving...
Maybe you could share something more about your washing habits, i.e. fabric softener, oxyclean, etc. There may be a common denominator here.


Post# 718812 , Reply# 8   12/2/2013 at 14:05 (1,242 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Still, I don't get what farbric softner could do to aluminium (which content should be that aggresive that it does NOT make your skin react, BUT can dammage the aluminium with such sort contact times), but anyway, I think this is indeed a problem of additives to the wash water.
First: Does your house have a water softner (such a thing you poor salt in, like in a dishwasher, just for your whole home)?
Second: Which detergent/fabric softener was used?
Third: How often was usually rinsed and which temperature was used normaly?
Could help to find out what damaged the spider...


Post# 718813 , Reply# 9   12/2/2013 at 14:10 (1,242 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA)        
fabric softener

frontloaderfan's profile picture
I don't think it was so much the aggressive composition of the FS as it was it's waxy coating qualities, which, over time, made it accumulate on the spider. Add to that the fact that the washer, like most modern FL'ers, uses a very small amount of water, plus I think he said he washed in mostly cold water, and you've got a spider that isn't being thoroughly cleansed of FS residue during the next wash cycle, which, in turn, could possibly hold moisture on the cast aluminum, thus accelerating it's decomposition.

It does seem that most of the spider failures I have seen pictures/videos of all have this thick, caked-on residue in common. I recall reading something about the class action lawsuit against Whirlpool in which it was mentioned that WP agreed to change the composition and design of the spider, which would allow it to shed water more thoroughly in order to prevent moisture accumulation, which was suspected to contribute to premature spider failure.
Just my take on this scenario, nothing more.


Post# 718819 , Reply# 10   12/2/2013 at 14:38 (1,242 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Probably is a coating of mold and smutz atop the corrosion. The Duet I refurbed wasn't that far gone but I replaced the drum anyway due to bits of the spider crumbling off and concern for stability in area of the pulley shaft.

Here's a pic for comparison.


Post# 718821 , Reply# 11   12/2/2013 at 14:44 (1,242 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Does anyone know if Panasonic or Electrolux (a AEG machine) in europe are using this kind of spider? You kind a scared me know...

Post# 718861 , Reply# 12   12/2/2013 at 17:02 (1,242 days old) by oneway88 ()        
spider corrosion

I use the washer on the HOT/COLD setting. We use Tide HE liquid detergent with Febreze sport already in it, we use no fabric softener. No bleach or any other additives.

We do approx. 6 loads of wash per week. The spin cycle is so fast that the clothes are almost dry after the wash cycle. I cannot believe that there is stuff clinging to the spider to corrode it.

Everyone i have shown these pics to have said that this wear is premature. Aluminum should not corrode this quick.

My previous washer was a whirlpool and i had it 18 years before the motor and bearings went....this LG machine is 3 years old and looks older than my old washer.


Post# 718888 , Reply# 13   12/2/2013 at 18:08 (1,242 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Closed Door?

mrb627's profile picture
Are you closing the door between wash cycles trapping moisture in the tub?

I wonder if excess moisture could be causing the premature corrosion.

Otherwise, I would attribute the failure to cheap build quality that I noticed on both my LG washer and dryer and sold them on Craigslist before the one year warranty was up.

Malcolm


Post# 718889 , Reply# 14   12/2/2013 at 18:16 (1,242 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
bad materials?

looks like aluminum alloy used(quite possibly just melted scrap aluminum)was unsuited to use around wash water-possibly too much magnesium in it or just porous...

Post# 718894 , Reply# 15   12/2/2013 at 18:32 (1,242 days old) by washer111 ()        

Would first like to point out that although softened water does contain trace amounts of salt, it is not nearly enough to cause this disastrous level of corrosion in such a short period of time. Most consumers would probably weigh up having corroded pipes with soft water, or crusty pipes and hard water. If my pipes were going to rust like that, I wouldn't think of using a softener. Fortunately, this problem really only occurs with Lead pipes, or Coppper pipes that are already severely degraded when switched to softened water. If you have lead pipes and this is happening, I would recommend getting a plumber in to inspect the problem and visiting your Physician, who could help with Lead-poisoning issues. 

 

Getting back on topic, I notice that you use H-E Washing Liquid. At least around here (on this forum), that stuff generally gets a bit of a bad rap when used frequently in machines due to the horrid residual substances it leaves behind - namely "snot" (Thick sludge, like outdated fabric softener) as well as staining in various parts of the machine. The cleaning ability of these liquids is also not good. 

Since you use the washer on Hot, do you know if the machine is getting truly hot water when it runs, or is there a very long pipe run between it and the water heater than prevents the machine from getting good, hot water with the mediocre amount of water the washer probably uses? If there is a longer pipe run, then I would blame this issue on Cold (or Luke-Warm) water-washing combined with H-E Liquid not completely dissolving or being flushed away. 

 

The best practice to avoiding this costly problem is to (at least monthly), ensure you run the tap nearest the washer until it is HOT, use POWDERED detergent and wash some old rags on the "HOT" setting, longest cycle with some washer-cleaner powder added for good measure, and perhaps Chlorine-Bleach. The better cleaning ability of the powder will ensure that the rubbish left behind from the liquid is flushed away, and adding the towels ensures the outer-drum of the washer is cleaned to some extent. 


Post# 718963 , Reply# 16   12/3/2013 at 07:32 (1,242 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        
...and there are millions of these out there

gansky1's profile picture

The metal alloy spider looks just like a corroded pump body on a sixty year old washer made of similar metal, though the pump body was likely a better quality alloy.  I think our friend in SD above is probably on the right track.  While additives can contribute to buildup and corrosion, it starts with the quality of the metal.  Look at the WP spider that was at least twice as old as the LG's, if not more, and see the difference.  Other than a light coating of schmutz on the spider, there looks to be very little serious structural compromise.

 

I know of a 3 year old Samsung washer this exact same thing happened to, the drum actually wore a hole in the outer tub causing a steady leak.  While the repair tech was testing the machine, the drum separated from the spider completely and caused a huge racket, subsequently causing a motor failure when it stalled.  The extended warranty company replaced the machine, with a model of their choosing - BOL.   

 

Even with the cost of shipping, it is cheaper to melt down scrap than to mine and fabricate new metals and a global multi-billion dollar industry has evolved to satisfy Asia and India's appetites for "raw" materials.   Mao Zi Dong dreamed of a steel furnace in every village, and now there basically is.  South Korea and China lead the world in metal recycling and everything from junk cars to christmas lights are a valuable commodity.  As with many other cottage industries, there is very little regulation and control over how these things are processed and the result can be horrifying.  Once the metals are extracted, you can imagine the lack of control that goes into production of new metal products, corners cut to meet demand often results in substandard products.


Post# 718965 , Reply# 17   12/3/2013 at 07:44 (1,242 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
I'm betting Red got it right

jetcone's profile picture

poorly recycled aluminum in Asia. LG can't be using Materials Science to build these machines- just melt it, slap it together, and sell it in a wealthy marketplace.

 

 

But washer111 has a very good point about liquids they do leave residue chemicals by their very compounding. 

 

Stamped SS as Gansky pointed out to me would be better or they could have even anodized this part and gotten maybe 10 years out of it. Very CHEAP - nice and glitzy up front to attract the eye but don't look for quality down inside- slam it together and get it out the door and the money in the bank.

The problem is American manufacturers are being taught that American consumers are not as quality conscious with their spending dollar anymore from these examples.

Alliance is building to MilSpec because the Gov't is their biggest customer, not true of GE or WP.

For me it not only has to be US Made it has to be Quality US Made.

The Japanese had Quality in the 1970's, but today in Japan consumers won't buy SONY products because they aren't made in Japan anymore and so considered shoddy.


Post# 718972 , Reply# 18   12/3/2013 at 08:21 (1,242 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Corroded Aluminum Washer Parts

combo52's profile picture
Almost every automatic washer built over the last 70 years has contained major structural aluminum parts and there have always been corrosion failures at various times.

In this case I would have to believe that the biggest contributor to this very early failure is the lack of using bleach probably combined with other bad laundry habits.

If this washer was used commercially there would be almost NO corrosion on the spider, homeowners that keep using the same procedures and laundry products come up with some of the most horrific messes that you can imagine.

I had mentioned in another thread that we had installed 8 new SQ TL washers in a condominium laundry last Wednesday. On Saturday an employ and I dissected the 8 10 yo KM DD washers for good parts before sending them to the crusher. And we have all seen nasty pictures of DD washers full of black and brown scum at the top of the plastic outer tub, Well there was nothing in any of these 8 DD washers that were used commercially.

The lesson, change products often, DO NOT Skimp on the amount of detergents, use LCB often, use HOT water, and of course leave doors and DISPENSER Drawers open on FL washers.


Post# 718974 , Reply# 19   12/3/2013 at 08:35 (1,242 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Jetcone nailed it

washman's profile picture
Anyone remember when laundry applianaces were considered durable goods? Unfortunately that is no longer the case. And an entire generation of millenials is being educated to believe this is normal.

Yet despite all the hype about HE machines, what is the overall benefit if they fall apart in a catastrophic manner such as this and it is not cost effective to repair and these things wind up in the scrap heap?

I know I have caught flak for this, but I utterly fail to see how these new machines, made as cheaply as possible, can possibly be a good investment over a 25 year old Maytag or new SQ top loader?

The pics above are not just shoddy assembly but an outright insult to manufacturing in general.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO washman's LINK


Post# 718981 , Reply# 20   12/3/2013 at 10:45 (1,241 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

kb0nes's profile picture
Clearly this outcome is very atypical and quite possibly due to usage.

Still its pretty clear the manufacturer didn't engineer in much margin for such things to happen. A catastrophic failure like this in 3 years wow.

Indeed the metallurgy of the casting alloy itself is in question. Being that it is a casting adds the possibility of porosity into the mix. Many alloys of aluminum really aren't all that prone to corrosion, Aluminum is a lot like Core-Ten steel, it forms a passive oxide layer that is protective to the base metal.

As mentioned it would be simple for LG to greatly extend the life of these parts (even when usage is less then optimum) by anodizing or perhaps powder coating these spiders. Simply engineering the casting to be smooth and drain well without any catch pockets would likely help a ton too. But it costs money so that's out the window.

If I were restoring a machine with an aluminum spider I'd smooth all the flash and mold marks on the casting then give it a good bead blasting. Follow this with anodizing or powder coating and it would outlast us all, indifferent to usage.

It is a shame that LG seems to keep coming up with issues, but then again there has never been any company that doesn't have design problems, not today nor in the past.


Post# 719085 , Reply# 21   12/3/2013 at 20:23 (1,241 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Corroded washer spiders

combo52's profile picture
These spiders are operating in EXTREME CONDITIONS in some homes.

The failure we have seen likely has nothing to due with recycled aluminum being used, usually recycled metals are BETTER and more corrosion resistant than virgin metals.

Frigidaire has experienced thousands of spider failures in American made washers in as little as three years of use.

Anodizing and other epoxy coatings may add a little life, but the real problem is the extremely abusive environment some washers are operated in, I have pulled apart many FL washers after years of use and the spider looks almost new, others look like the one above.


Post# 719131 , Reply# 22   12/3/2013 at 23:14 (1,241 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

All the questions I would make were made by other members...

But there's one that i'm really curious...

What's going to happen when these spiders start to fail at 1400 or 1600 rpm?

LG is getting revolutionary... After the Turbo Drum technology for the top loaders, they are about to launch the Flying Drum technology for the front loaders.

I'm sure I know the three things that caused this: Profit, Gain and Programmed obsolescence.


Post# 719139 , Reply# 23   12/4/2013 at 02:17 (1,241 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
To Oneway88

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Question...Was your door left cracked between cycles? Just curious because I think lots of FL owners leave the doors shut after washer is done.

DADOES - On that picture of the WP DUET drum you posted above, what is that stuff all over stainless steel part of the drum? The spider itself isn't as bad as the LG one, but the whole thing still looks like it's been to hell and back.


Post# 719165 , Reply# 24   12/4/2013 at 05:48 (1,241 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
DADOES - On that picture of the WP DUET drum you posted above, what is that stuff all over stainless steel part of the drum? The spider itself isn't as bad as the LG one, but the whole thing still looks like it's been to hell and back.
Link to the thread about the refurb project I did last year.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO DADoES's LINK


Post# 719235 , Reply# 25   12/4/2013 at 13:06 (1,240 days old) by electron1100 (England)        
Not all ally parts corrode badly

electron1100's profile picture
This is a picture of the spider and backplate from my 1971 Hoover Keymatic as stripped from the machine

Until I got it I would have no idea as to what powders would have been used in it, but this machine was made in the pre-bio age and would have gone through those powders when they arrived and probably liquid cleaners when they arrived in the 1980s.

The only thing I do know is that where I live in the UK we have very soft water

I have seen worse than this, but nothing as terrible as the examples shown by you blokes over there in states, it would worry me too.

Though I take the point about inferior quality alloys being used, I have seen pictures of rust spots on so called stainless steel drums from certain Asian manufacturers............

It must be down to cost cutting

Gary


Post# 719435 , Reply# 26   12/5/2013 at 13:34 (1,239 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

The trouble with front loaders is that they cannot be left looking like they do on the sales floor, all closed up, if they are used. After use, they have to be aired out. My FLs always have the doors open and the dispenser drawers either pulled open or removed when they are not in use, but they are in the basement and out of the way. The dispenser compartment of the Mieles has to be dried very well with a heavy cloth to remove the water from the little spray holes at the top or black mold will grow there. If you have a show place laundry where the machines are on display or in a traffic area, leaving the door open and the dispenser tray out does not present as nice a picture as the machines do in the magazine ad.

In addition to all of that, there is quality and there is cheap crap dressed up like in the Yiddish expression, "oipen putz, inten shmutz" which translates to, Fancy on top (or outside), filty underneath (or inside).


Post# 719563 , Reply# 27   12/6/2013 at 09:32 (1,239 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
yes

mark_wpduet's profile picture
very important to leave it cracked and dispenser pulled out when not in use. I pull my dispenser out and can dump some water left in it. I can see a lot of people not doing that and it would just sit there all close up not able to dry and that will cause problems.

Post# 909436 , Reply# 28   12/3/2016 at 01:19 by ls (St. Louis)        
pH and other culprits of aluminum corrosion

-I have been in water treatment for many years. The spinner is some grade of aluminum. Aluminum prefers a pH of 6.5-8.0. Many municipal water supplies pH ranges from 7.0-9.5.
Here in St. Louis if your water is being made from the Missouri River, the pH is around 8.9-9.2 due to the lime softening that is needed to drop the heavy particles and make it clear. So, our water pH is already causing a corrosion issue with the aluminum. (The same issue is occurring with new residential aluminum hot water boilers for radiant floor heat ((not made of cast iron anymore)). People are filling up the aluminum boiler with 9.2 pH water and they are lasting 2 years. The warranty will read that the water pH must be maintained at 6.5-8.0).
-Other issues are high pH detergents. Then add some heat to accelerates the attack on aluminum.
-And yes, aluminum is a weak metal. So there is galvanic corrosion most likely occurring. If any other metal in the galvanic series that is stronger (like iron)starts corroding, and deposits on the aluminum, it will cause the weaker aluminum to become the sacrificial anode and corrode faster. As you know, some people have iron in their water supply (as noticed by the ring it leaves in the toilet).
-So to explain why some people may have issues while others do not, let me start by saying that everyone in the country does not have the same water quality. For example some people on well water supplies may have greatly higher or lower pH water. Just depends. Some people may only wash in cold and warm water, and never use the hot water or steam cycles with their high pH water. Some people have heavy metals that are stronger than aluminum in their water. There are a lot of variables and combinations, but pH is one of the biggest culprits for aluminum corrosion.





Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      



Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.



                     


automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy