Thread Number: 50270
OLD Electric Warming Oven
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Post# 724966   1/4/2014 at 09:02 (3,736 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Hi folks,

My pantry contains an old electric warming oven. It has no markings that I can see. However, the house generally had all GE appliances, so it might be a GE. Based on what I know about the history of the house, I'd guess the oven dates from the late '30s or early '40s.

It's 24 inches wide, and fits in a "standard" undercounter opening, except that it appears to rest above the baseboard molding, rather than on the floor. The oven may have identifying markings on the back, but it's built-in, and I'd prefer not to remove it unless absolutely necessary.

I'll attach some pictures in the next few posts. Does anyone recognize this oven? Thanks,

Dean

First picture:




This post was last edited 01/04/2014 at 09:19



Post# 724967 , Reply# 1   1/4/2014 at 09:02 (3,736 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Next picture, oven turned on:

Post# 724968 , Reply# 2   1/4/2014 at 09:04 (3,736 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Next picture, oven doors open. The center shelf slides out.


Post# 724969 , Reply# 3   1/4/2014 at 09:05 (3,736 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Last picture, close-up of control knob, indicator light, and door handles:


Post# 724973 , Reply# 4   1/4/2014 at 09:20 (3,736 days old) by polkanut (Wausau, WI )        

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Do you use it?  Performance?  A very nice thing to have for large gatherings.


Post# 724976 , Reply# 5   1/4/2014 at 09:26 (3,736 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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The oven seems to work fine. It heats up rather slowly, but that's probably normal. We have used it, but to be honest we don't use it often. Maybe this group will inspire me to use it more!

Post# 724984 , Reply# 6   1/4/2014 at 09:41 (3,736 days old) by rockland1 ()        
Consider yourself fortunate....

Most warming drawers today sell at or above $1000. They're probably not worth that much, but that's where the pricing is.

Post# 724991 , Reply# 7   1/4/2014 at 10:09 (3,736 days old) by wiskybill (Canton, Ohio)        
Very nice..

Dean,

I'm curious.

Have you ever checked it with a thermometer to see
what temps correspond to low, med, and high?

I could see this as a very useful addition to any
kitchen, if you have the space.

Bill


Post# 724996 , Reply# 8   1/4/2014 at 10:24 (3,736 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Bill,

I have not measured the oven's temperature at the various settings (L, M, H). I will put that on my list of things to do.

Out of curiosity, I looked to see if there are modern warming ovens that would fit in a 24" undercounter space. I didn't find any -- just lots of warming drawers.

Dean


Post# 725055 , Reply# 9   1/4/2014 at 16:16 (3,736 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)        

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That is really cool! Now I have something else to find for my kitchen Undecided


Post# 725084 , Reply# 10   1/4/2014 at 18:39 (3,736 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Love it

iheartmaytag's profile picture
You are so fortunate to have it. My new GE range has a warming oven where the storage is normally. I wasn't sure I would use it when I bought it, but I wanted it. You don't realize how much you use it.


fixing pancakes on weekends, you can keep the batch warm while you put the next bunch on the griddle. When you are having big dinners you can keep the bread warm while you are finishing the rest of the meal. Works great as a plate warmer too.

For something that I wanted that I didn't think I would use much, I am surprised that I have it on several times a week.


Post# 725110 , Reply# 11   1/4/2014 at 20:26 (3,736 days old) by mrx ()        

That looks more like a 1950s appliance.
Although it does have a bit of an Art Deco style.

I would be a bit concerned about the wiring of an old heating appliance of that era.

There is a very significant likelihood of disintegrated insulation and a possible fire risk.

Cool to see something that old in such good condition though.

I'm guessing that it must have seen very little use.



Post# 725116 , Reply# 12   1/4/2014 at 20:57 (3,736 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        

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When I worked at an Arby's a few years ago we had a warming oven like this. They call it the Alto-Shaam. You place 3-4 roasts in it after they bake in the oven in back and you keep them in the Shaam so that you have enough of them to slice for the lunch and evening rush. It is supposed to be 140 degrees, see if that one is that hot. In fact, the interior of that warmer looks like the inside of the Alto-Shaam. We also had warming drawers like they did at Denny's. In an Arby's they are used for potatoes.

Post# 725197 , Reply# 13   1/5/2014 at 10:46 (3,735 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

Yeah, if this works it's a useful and valuable addition to your kitchen. We use our warming drawer more than I thought we would when we built the house. It's handy to be able to stop on the way home from work, grab some take-out, come home, and pop it in the warming drawer until dinner time.

Post# 725200 , Reply# 14   1/5/2014 at 11:00 (3,735 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Very nice warmer

That must be some mansion to have that appliance installed in butler's pantry during the Depression. I wonder if your Schenectady location could mean that it was the home of some GE executive.

Post# 725205 , Reply# 15   1/5/2014 at 11:20 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Tom,

It's not really a mansion, but it is a nice big old house. And the house was originally built for a GE executive! I live in a neighborhood called the GE Realty Plot:

www.realtyplot.org/...

My house is not nearly as fancy as some in this neighborhood. Nowadays, the neighborhood is mostly non-GE people. And (sadly for me) the houses are worth much less than you'd think, because 1) most affluent families choose to live in the suburbs, and 2) the taxes in Schenectady are quite high. Points 1 and 2 are unfortunately related and self-reinforcing, but that's off-topic for this thread.

Dean


Post# 725210 , Reply# 16   1/5/2014 at 11:38 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
Oven temperatures -- approximate

robinsondm's profile picture
Okay, I measured the temperature in the warming oven with an oven thermometer, and got the following:

Low: ~170F
Med: ~220F
High: ~270F

It takes a long time for the oven to warm up and stabilize, so these measurements took a while. For more accurate measurements, I could use a remote-reading thermometer, but I don’t have one.

Dean


Post# 725211 , Reply# 17   1/5/2014 at 11:43 (3,735 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Wow! Thanks. Beautiful location. It seems when cities have treasures like your neighborhood, there should be a tax break to keep keep up the value and desirability of the location. Thank you for sharing your treasure.

Post# 725309 , Reply# 18   1/5/2014 at 16:40 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
Clues to age of oven

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Hi Folks,

I temporarily removed the guard in the rear of my warming oven to reveal the heating elements. A picture appears below. To me, the cloth wire insulation, etc., looks consistent with a guess of late 30s or early 40s, but I'd be curious to hear others' opinions. As you see, there's some light rust on the elements. I don't know if I should try to remove the rust (after cutting power to the oven) or leave it alone.

Two other tidbits: 1) I've seen the oven's main power cord (it plugs in behind an undercounter refrigerator) and the power cord is cloth insulated. 2) The heating elements say "TRENT, H.E. Trent Co., Phila. PA., 115V, 300W". There is a Trent Inc. in Philadelphia, that makes heating units for industrial applications.

Any more thoughts or guesses on the oven would be appreciated. As I said, I'd rather not remove it to examine the back for additional markings. Thanks,

Dean




This post was last edited 01/05/2014 at 18:15
Post# 725312 , Reply# 19   1/5/2014 at 16:51 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 725315 , Reply# 20   1/5/2014 at 17:07 (3,735 days old) by mrx ()        

It's surprising that the cloth insulation's held up so well over that time.

That would definitely tend to point towards the 1920s/30s and would fit with the art deco design I guess.

Interesting insect life going on there on the electrical terminals!

The company that made the elements, HE Trent, is still going : www.trentheat.com...

I would still consider that machine a potentially serious fire hazard though as the wiring's just so old and I definitely wouldn't advise using it.


Post# 725323 , Reply# 21   1/5/2014 at 17:30 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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@mrx: Ick, you're right about the insects. I had thought that was frayed insulation, but not so. I deleted the close-up photo. I'll replace it with a new version after I clean off the bugs!

Post# 725324 , Reply# 22   1/5/2014 at 17:32 (3,735 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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That it's in a pantry, the shelf looking more like a cabinet than an oven and the slow heating would lead me to think it may be a dish warmer rather than soley for food.

Either way, it's a very cool appliance!


Post# 725343 , Reply# 23   1/5/2014 at 18:02 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Ok, new close-up (sans bugs) of wiring and heating element markings:


Post# 725347 , Reply# 24   1/5/2014 at 18:11 (3,735 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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@gansky1: Yes, it could be intended as a plate warmer. In the past, that's how we've used it, rather than using it as a keep-warm oven for food (though I think it would work for that purpose also).

@mrx: If the cloth insulation is really a serious risk, then I have bigger problems than the warming oven. Namely, much of my house wiring still has cloth insulation! When I've worked with it (e.g., to install new outlets) the insulation has always seemed to be in good condition. The cloth was impregnated with a wax, I think, that keeps it soft and pliable. We did talk to an electrician once about re-wiring the house to get rid of the old wiring, and it was too much for him! That same electrician did remark on what good condition the old wiring seemed to be in.

Anyway, I'm sure I could rewire the warming oven. Would you recommend that? Rewiring the house would be a much, much bigger deal. Fortunately, we do have centrally-monitored, hard-wired smoke alarms in the house.

Dean


Post# 725451 , Reply# 25   1/6/2014 at 05:33 (3,734 days old) by mrx ()        

To be honest, yes I would recommend a compete rewire of the house.

That wiring is extremely old. In the interim, I would be very careful not to overload circuits or add new outlets. The design of old installations often didn't really foresee big load requirements. I would be careful with high load heaters and air conditioners etc etc and don't uprate any fuses whatever you do!

Rubber sheathed wiring is actually worse even though its younger than that cloth stuff because it pershies over time.

With cloth covered wiring there were various approaches to insulating it ranging from wax to tar to rubber.

However, at this stage that wiring couldn't possibly pass an inspection. I would suggest that you start to budget towards a complete rewire as soon as you can afford it.

Rodent and insect damage is also a possibility and old junctions can be a little scary sometimes too, particularly where they're been DIY hacked over the decades.

Rewiring the oven would require heat resistant wires suitable for connection to elements. You'd need to get proper local advice on the type to use.. There are special sheaths used in hot locations like that., I'm in Ireland so wiring spec and terminology is a bit different.

Also bear in mind that the oven / warming cabinet could possibly be a 'Class 0' appliance meaning that it's neither grounded nor double insulated and has exposed metal surfaces.

Class 0 appliances are generally illegal since the 50s in most EU countries and I would suspect the same in North America.
However, they weren't that unusual in the old days!

Antique electrical installations can be very dangerous!

Just be careful with it!

On the plus side, at least US construction usually has partition walls (sheet rock panels etc) and plenty of voids for running wires and ducts.

Over here most construction has solid walls and wiring is burried in ducts in the plaster.

So rewiring over there is relatively straight forward.

We rewired my grandmother's place a fee years ago.. Its a classic 1923 house and it had similar cloth wiring!
It was disguised because someone had installed a more modern (late 1950s)panel and modern outlets and switches!

The electrician opened an outlet and was horrified to find black cotton covered wires!


Post# 725502 , Reply# 26   1/6/2014 at 10:28 (3,734 days old) by wiskybill (Canton, Ohio)        

Ronan

IMO, your reaction to this seems to be a little overdramatic.

I see no evidence to support your position that this appliance is
completely unsafe, and in fact his house should be considered that too.

I see no reason to induce such panic and fear based on what has been presented
to this point.

The picture shows wiring that appears to be completely intact and undisturbed
since its installation.

Yes, caution should always be exercised with vintage appliances and a thorough
examination performed and issues addressed if they are found.

Dean, IMO, I would leave the rust alone and re-install the cover.
Unless there is something else you haven't shown us or disclosed to
support Ronan, don't lose sleep over this.



Post# 725545 , Reply# 27   1/6/2014 at 12:50 (3,734 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)        

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I agree. If the wiring insulation is in good shape and not brittle, it is best to leave well enough alone both in the house and in the appliance. Rewiring a house in the U.S. can cost well over $5000, my house would cost about $8000 - $10,000.


Post# 725554 , Reply# 28   1/6/2014 at 13:28 (3,734 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Unless serious faults are found, houses generally are not totally rewired. They might be "heavied up" to increase the electrical capacity and new circuits might be run to add air conditioning, for example, but that does not change the load on existing circuits, nor does it disturb wires or their insulation that have been in good shape over the decades. Even when fuse boxes are replaced with circuit breaker panels, the existing wiring in the home is allowed to remain in the heavy up situations I have seen and lived through.

Post# 725555 , Reply# 29   1/6/2014 at 13:33 (3,734 days old) by mrx ()        

If the wiring's from the 1920s you're talking about a system that's coming up on 100 years old!
That is *NOT* safe. Ask any electrician.


Post# 725557 , Reply# 30   1/6/2014 at 13:41 (3,734 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

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When I bought my house, it had to be "emergency" rewired the night before closing due to the inspector finding Knob and Tube wiring and the insurance company refused to issue a certificate.

Sellers and I split the cost my half was approximately $2500, Luckily we did not have to change the service as we already had 100 amps coming in. If it had been less the insurance company would have required an upgrade to the service as well. $$$


Post# 725559 , Reply# 31   1/6/2014 at 13:43 (3,734 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        
That is *NOT* safe. Ask any electrician.

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Especially one that is trying to sell you new wiring!

I'd surely not worry about the wiring in the appliance itself. Its in a metal box and provided its protected by a fuse or circuit breaker you are fine. It would either short and trip the protection or go open meaning no heat, no other reasonable failure is possible.

I won't comment on the home wiring as none of that has been detailed here. If the OP is concerned it would be wise to have a professional electrician look at it in person. Armchair quarterbacking on a forum by folks that have never seen said wiring isn't likely to be helpful...



Post# 725560 , Reply# 32   1/6/2014 at 13:51 (3,734 days old) by mrx ()        

Well, good luck with it!
I won't be commenting on anything like this again as my opinions are clearly most unwelcome on this forum.

Adios!


Post# 725574 , Reply# 33   1/6/2014 at 14:52 (3,734 days old) by retromania (Anderson, South Carolina)        
I love it!!

That's my thinking too, that it is a dish warmer since it is located in the pantry, but could be used too keep foods warm. Would really come in handy at the holidays. Never seen one this old. Very neat. Thanks for sharing.

Post# 725577 , Reply# 34   1/6/2014 at 14:57 (3,734 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
mrx

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Well that (mrx's departure) is unfortunate. I sent him a PM to say I thought this was just a disagreement over the need to re-wire, and that no one had intended for him to feel personally insulted or leave the forum. I also encouraged him to consider rejoining.

But, I don't know if mrx will see my PM. So, if any of you know how to reach mrx, maybe you could reach out and encourage him to consider rejoining the forum? Thanks,

Dean


Post# 725599 , Reply# 35   1/6/2014 at 16:49 (3,734 days old) by Travis ()        

Very nice warming oven.  It's nice to hear that you care for your vintage home.

 

It really bothers me that we can get so paranoid over perceived dangers.  Ten years ago I did a gut rehab of a building.  Walls were moving around and the 1915 wiring was completely replaced.  Unfortunately, the new wiring was frequently an issue.  Connections would get loose, etc.

 

I now live in a 1930's home.  The wiring has been updated when a room has been renovated.  In my case, the kitchen.  The bulk of the home is original.  The electric load on the wiring is light.  When I replace a switch or receptacle, I have used heat shrink tubing to stabilize the insulation.  When I have had the chance to see the wiring in the wall, it's fine, it just doesn't like to be flexed.  That shouldn't be a problem, since I am not reaching inside my walls to flex the wiring.

 

I watch a lot of HGTV home renovation shows.  I love them, but what I never do understand is the shock of people finding old wiring or asbestos in their old homes.  I mean get real.  I guess it makes for good tv.  My one piece of asbestos that I found was removed by me and disposed of, crisis averted!

 

Sorry to have drifted the thread.  I just hate the see this vintage=unsafe mindset prevail.  I am more afraid of my newer things blowing up on me.


Post# 725600 , Reply# 36   1/6/2014 at 16:49 (3,734 days old) by retromania (Anderson, South Carolina)        
Cloth Wiring

Parts of the place where I live still has the original cloth wiring. An electrician said it was in good shape and would be safe as long as no one messed with it. Said as long as there is no fraying, splitting or crumbling of the insulation, that it is ok. He did recommend a rewire of the place since the wiring is so old and not to code.

Post# 725687 , Reply# 37   1/6/2014 at 23:27 (3,733 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Warming Cabinet

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Greg hit the nail on the head, this neat appliance is not meant for food at all, but rather it is meant for warming dishes for a meal.

This appliance should be perfectly safe to use, I would not give it a second thought.


Post# 725813 , Reply# 38   1/7/2014 at 12:06 (3,733 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)        

The wiring in the warming oven appears to have the same type of asbestos impregnated insulation found in electric stoves.  It tends to hold up very well over time.

 

Ken D.


Post# 726076 , Reply# 39   1/8/2014 at 09:38 (3,732 days old) by Lightedcontrols ()        
For Pete's Sake....

Leave that warming oven ALONE! It's fine and original. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it. Some of these girls are just drama queens that are just full of C R A P which is why I don't post much on here. If you have something, one of these girls are gonna find something WRONG with it. Leave it alone and enjoy using it. Lightedcontrols.

Post# 726347 , Reply# 40   1/9/2014 at 04:23 (3,731 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
The wiring IS

Asbestos covered, and it is NOT dangerous, LEAVE IT ALONE, the only time asbestos is dangerous is when you start messing with it,as for knob and tube, it will meet code in most places today, and if properly done is as safe or safer than anything else, and I got this information from my Uncle who has been a liscensed electrical contractor since 1958 and his son my Cousin who has been liscensed since the 80s, they both have commercial and residential experience.the secret to knob and tube is ,where splices are made they must be soldered, not just twisted, and like all wiring, not overloaded., the biggest problem according to my uncle is that over time people change fuses from 15 amp to 30 amp or worse put in a penny, and then you have no protection at all.And yes ALL old appliances have asbestos insulation, that includes ranges, and all small heat producers, waffle irons etc, perfectly safe if you dont fool with it.

Post# 726350 , Reply# 41   1/9/2014 at 05:11 (3,731 days old) by vintagekitchen ()        
knob and tube and other old wiring

Having lived in houses with about every sort of wiring known, including bojack jobs that would never pass any sort of code, and properly installed wiring of every variety, including knob and tube, I can say from my experience it's not usually the old wiring that's dangerous, it's the users. When you plug in a heater or air conditioner, and the fuse pops, a sensible person either moves the appliance to another room or another circuit, or calls an electrician or a friend who is handy with tools to run another circuit.

Unfortunately, a great many people are not sensible, and will put a 30 amp fuse in a 10 or 15 amp circuit, so it will carry a heavier load. These old houses often had several rooms on one 10 or 15 amp circuit, because there were so few appliances to plug in at the time. My great grandmothers house had one single bulb ceiling fixture and one outlet per room. 6 rooms, 4 fuses. She also only owned a 13 inch tv, a radio, an ancient refrigerator, a wringer washer, an iron, a toaster, and a hand mixer, and a few desk fans, all quite old, as far as electric appliances went. In newer homes you generally find at least one, often more than one 15 or 20 amp circuit per room, to keep up with all the appliances and electronics in newer homes.

If you use these old circuits as designed, and as rated, they will likely last forever. If you demand they perform like modern wiring, without doing necessary updates, of course things will go wrong.


Post# 726351 , Reply# 42   1/9/2014 at 05:29 (3,731 days old) by vintagekitchen ()        
Speaking of minimal circuits..

In my grandparent house, the ones on my mother's side, 7 rooms, a kitchen, living room, sitting room, bathroom, and 2 bedrooms, all operated on 3 breakers. There was another breaker for the electric stove, and one installed when I was in high school for the water heater they finally had installed, then another for the dryer they finally purchased. There were 2 more bedrooms that were never even wired for electricity at all. My grandfather built the house himself with thw help of his 2 teenage sons in 1983. They knew that their wiring was limited, and made sure not to over strain the system. Older people didn't consider massive amounts of power being available a necessity, and they didn't try to force the wiring to do more than it should.

Post# 726358 , Reply# 43   1/9/2014 at 06:12 (3,731 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
Wiring

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Thanks for the comments on wiring in the warming oven and my house. I will leave the oven wiring alone and keep using the appliance. FYI, the oven has its own circuit, shared only with the undercounter fridge.

Also FYI, my house wiring is not knob and tube. The original cloth-covered house wiring runs through metal conduit to metal junction boxes. All the fuses are the right values. The overall house was upgraded (long ago) to 150 amps.




This post was last edited 01/09/2014 at 08:24
Post# 726359 , Reply# 44   1/9/2014 at 06:29 (3,731 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
MRX's Comments:

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I would like to point out that MRX is from Ireland, where 220v is the norm, rather than the somewhat more benign American 110v. Electrical safety is a somewhat different ball game where he's from. 220 doesn't just shock if you have a problem - it welds your arse to the wall.

Our frames of reference can be different, and sometimes it's for a good reason. That does not mean that anyone is right or wrong here; we just know what we know because of the reality we've always contended with.


Post# 726391 , Reply# 45   1/9/2014 at 09:10 (3,731 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

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Well, Sandy, I view the USA's 120V/60Hz standard as plenty dangerous and potentially lethal, even if slightly "less deadly" than Ireland's 230V/50Hz. I realize there's also room for some disagreement on safety practices.

Mostly, I'm disappointed that mrx took the discussion so personally, and decided to leave the forum altogether!


Post# 726443 , Reply# 46   1/9/2014 at 14:24 (3,731 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Speaking as one who has

Done maintenence work...220 hurts worse than 110!!! and 277 on a lighting circuit really will make you jump!!!

Post# 726448 , Reply# 47   1/9/2014 at 14:49 (3,731 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
Ouch

robinsondm's profile picture
Hans,

I will take your word for it, and not conduct my own experiments on voltage vs. pain levels! :-)

Dean


Post# 726481 , Reply# 48   1/9/2014 at 16:46 (3,731 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
LOL!!

It comes with working on stuff that you cant turn off!! the worst as far as pain is concerned is an oil burner ignition transformer, very very low amperage, but 10,000 volts, I was laying under a house in a crawl space once servicing an ancient furnace , and being the dummy I was, did not pull the main switch, when the thermostat called for heat, of course it turned on as I was cleaning the terminals.zzzap! What hurt worse was I of course jumped..and hit my head on a floor joist!You learn the hard way.

Post# 726584 , Reply# 49   1/10/2014 at 00:48 (3,730 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

More people are electrocuted from 120V than any other voltage-BE CAREFUL!!!120V IS LETHAL!!!

Post# 727014 , Reply# 50   1/11/2014 at 17:16 (3,729 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
Found something close!

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My wife did some internet sleuthing and found a 1937 catalog called "Whitehead Work Saving Kitchens." It contains images of 2 very similar (but not quite identical) warming ovens. See the picture below. Note the similarity of the control knob (called a "three-heat switch") and indicator light, and the heating elements behind the guard -- just like mine -- on the left picture. The description even says 600-watt, and my oven has 2 300W elements. The catches at top and bottom, and the rubber stops, also look the same. And the oven on the right is called a "plate warmer," just as folks above deduced was the intended use for my oven.

 

While the shelving configurations are different, and my oven lacks the decorative slots on either side of the control, this is obviously very close to what I have. It doesn't tell me exactly who made and/or sold my oven -- Whitehead, H.E. Trent, etc.? -- but it seems the same manufacturer made both my oven and the Whitehead catalog offerings of 1937.




This post was last edited 01/11/2014 at 17:52
Post# 727080 , Reply# 51   1/11/2014 at 21:25 (3,729 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)        

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Neat find, Dean. Whitehead advertised sinks and cabinets made of Monel metal back then. That means that in all likelihood the shiny metal in your plate warmer is also Monel (an alloy of two thirds nickel and one third copper) rather than stainless steel.

Post# 727774 , Reply# 52   1/15/2014 at 01:10 (3,725 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Dean thats not cloth wiring Hans is right on

jetcone's profile picture

That is asbestos fiber and as long as you don't disturb it it will last a long time and work safely.  That was the best insulation at the time for heating equipment. That is white american asbestos not european brown. As such my father, a material scientist at GE, felt the concerns about it were overblown as the brown variety has a hook structure to the crystal that hooks into lungs while the white american has straight crystal structure which does not hook.

 

I'd leave it alone and enjoy your appliance.

 

My House had Knob n Tubing and a lot of them still do here in New England, its considered very safe BUT and this is a BIG BUT it is not polarized like today's systems so DONT ever plug a computer into an KnT circuit, I fried one once which was very expensive.

 

Nice area I know it well I have good friends that live on Wendell and you may remember their house was used in the filming of "Beyond The Pines"?

 


Post# 727889 , Reply# 53   1/15/2014 at 17:09 (3,725 days old) by Davey7 (Chicago)        

My dad said the same thing about asbestos fibers and their danger. I think we have gotten a touch paranoid about asbestos and lead as a whole (not say there aren't risks, just overstated risks).

Post# 727905 , Reply# 54   1/15/2014 at 18:35 (3,725 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        
Fused neutral

Another thing about buildings with knob & tube wiring is that previous to 1928 the grounded (neutral) side may be fused in addition to the hot side. Old fuse boxes (or fuseholders just mounted to a surface) may still be present and connected even if newer service entrance or remote panelboards have been installed.

Our local historical society museum (built 1890's) has such wiring feeding the ceiling lights and some older receptacles. The service panel is circuit breakers and located outside by the meter. There is another breaker panel in the basement (fed by a 100A double pole breaker in the outside panel), with a 30A double pole breaker feeding to an old fuse box in the second floor hall. This is so old that it is not in a metal enclosure, but just porcelain fuseholders mounted to a board, covered with a wooden door. Each of the four 120 volt circuits has two fuses - one for each wire. According to an electrician that went into the attic, there are more fuseholders without enclosures up there (for second floor lights). Such an arrangement was outlawed with the 1928 NEC, but many old buildings still have old wiring connected in this way.

The problem with such wiring is that the fuse protecting the grounded wire may blow without the one on the hot side blowing. This means that while nothing connected to that circuit will function, the hot side is still live. Anyone touching the hot side will receive a shock if they are touching anything grounded. This is obviously quite dangerous. The electrician jumpered the grounded conductors around the fuseholders on the grounded side in the hallway panel, to avoid this issue. However, he didn't fix the ones in the attic as the museum manager didn't want to spend any more to do so.

Anyone living in an old house built previous to the code change should check for such a situation.


Post# 727914 , Reply# 55   1/15/2014 at 19:11 (3,725 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        
Spooky

robinsondm's profile picture

Tom (CircleW): You appear to be psychic, and it’s scary. :) Seriously, I was getting ready to reply to the posts before yours – mentioning that I won’t disturb the asbestos, etc. But I was also thinking to myself, “I’d better not tell them about the fused neutrals!” I started Googling “fused neutrals” to get the latest thinking on this situation and how to remedy it. I then returned to the forum and saw your post – positively spooky!

 

Anyway, near the back entrance to my house is the most beautiful electrical panel you’ve probably ever seen – gorgeous copper conductors and knife switches, and a built-in light bulb – but with fused neutrals. It was likely the original panel for the house, and just as you said, various later upgrades never touched this box.

 

I will look into getting this situation fixed. Because the panel is so beautiful, I’d prefer to remove (and save) the whole thing, and replace it with something more modern -- rather than having an electrician add jumpers around the fuses. But, I’ll do what I have to.

 

In the meantime, have you considered making some extra income as a psychic? :)

 

Dean

 


Post# 728068 , Reply# 56   1/16/2014 at 11:49 (3,724 days old) by Davey7 (Chicago)        
Knob & tube

As I understand it, the biggest problem, or hazard, with knob & tube wiring is when people unknowingly add insulation to cavities where it is located, as the air space both insulates it and disperses any heat, can't remember, however, where I read this.

Post# 728087 , Reply# 57   1/16/2014 at 13:57 (3,724 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
All's I know about Knob and Tube is

iheartmaytag's profile picture
American Family Insurance refused to insure the house as long as it was in place.
and a house with Knob and Tube are not FHA insurable for loans

They cite:
Fire hazard due to insulation, or other contact with wire or rodents.
Shock or electrocution hazard as mentioned above.
Lack of ground and ground fault interrupters.

Since my house was built in 1935 they also stated that electrical requirements for a home have vastly changed and the older style wiring is not equipped to handle the electrical loads.

I also felt safer having it replaced.


Post# 728089 , Reply# 58   1/16/2014 at 14:07 (3,724 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
I watch too much HGTV

chachp's profile picture
..and these programs where it would appear the wiring has been updated because what is visible is new but then they tear down the wall and discover what is hidden is all Knob and Tube. That would be scary to think you thought you were protected only to find out you were not.

Post# 728092 , Reply# 59   1/16/2014 at 14:33 (3,724 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Well...

The Biltmore house...is FULL of the original wiring!!

Post# 728143 , Reply# 60   1/16/2014 at 18:43 (3,724 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        
Hey Dean,

wish I was a psychic, but no such luck!

I should have mentioned that the fused neutral setup can be found with wiring methods other than just knob & tube, as you mention yours is in conduit. Its just much more prevalent with K&T.

Hans mentions the Biltmore house. I would say its likely the wiring there is mainly in conduit.


Post# 728276 , Reply# 61   1/17/2014 at 09:16 (3,723 days old) by Davey7 (Chicago)        

I'll have to find the forum where I found the references. Insurance companies also require gravity furnaces to be removed too...

How common was K&T in brick houses? In Chicago everything is (supposed) to be in conduit and has been since the early days of electric, which spilled over into the surrounding areas until at least the 50's.


Post# 728475 , Reply# 62   1/18/2014 at 06:51 (3,722 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
I totally agree that it is probably best to leave the wiring of that beautyful plate warmer alone. If it aint broke don`t fix it.

I guess it doesn`t make sense now as long as the neutral is still fused, but you might consider to add a grounding wire. (Just a wire attached to the cabinet and a water pipe or similar.)

Would love to see a picture of the electrical panel.




Post# 728482 , Reply# 63   1/18/2014 at 07:22 (3,722 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
CHach

jetcone's profile picture

thats exactly what happened in my house built 1892, downstairs there was 100 amp circuit breaker service and skeins of romex running up to the house, BUT after the $4,000 computer failure it was found the top two floors were powered by K&T, and it gets better, the prior alcoholic homeowner just brought the romex up to the attic for 11 rooms and stripped it and WRAPPPED it around the K&T -- then he place newspaper and two layers of fiberglass insulation over the whole mess. K&T can handle a lot of current; when  my electrician found this he cut the wires and he said they flew apart and 11 rooms immediately went dead.  There is now 5,000 feet of new romex snaked through this whole house.

 

I won't tell you what the prior bojack owner did with the gas pipe in the third floor, but I can tell you my plumber came down white as as sheet and AFTER he shut the gas off to the entire house took me up to see it.

 


Post# 728778 , Reply# 64   1/19/2014 at 15:19 (3,721 days old) by robinsondm (Upstate NY)        

robinsondm's profile picture

Jon (jetcone),

 

I wanted to thank you for your earlier note on 1/15. As you and others have suggested, I'll leave the oven's asbestos wiring alone.

 

FWIW, I wanted to repeat that my house does not have K&T. Instead, the original wiring runs through metal conduit.

 

I know which house you're talking about on Wendell Avenue -- it's a small world! I don't know the owners very well, though I have met them before. Thanks again,

 

Dean



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