Thread Number: 51495
Rewiring 240v to 120v Bosch dryer
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Post# 738650   3/2/2014 at 01:57 (3,679 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

Having moved to a new apartment I discovered it lacks of a 240v line, but there are 20A outlets available(they run separately). Bosch condenser dryer has two heaters, 700W and 2000W. According to its plate the max wattage is 2800.
It was used with a 3-prong cord (neutral to ground).
Would connecting those two hots together make it work on 120v?
Should the third wire be connected to neutral or ground?





Post# 738653 , Reply# 1   3/2/2014 at 02:54 (3,679 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

Why not just rewire the outlet to give you 240V there? From what I have been told here before is it all can be done at the outlet without having to change anything in the circuit box.

Post# 738658 , Reply# 2   3/2/2014 at 04:44 (3,679 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
Let's assume the 2800W is both heaters plus the drum/blower motor (which may well be wrong, 100W seems skimpy for a fullsize dryer motor). On a US dryer, the motor would run from one leg to neutral, 120V. For a Bosch/Euro dryer? Or is this US Bosch? 2700W of heat also seems somewhat skimpy for a fullsize dryer. Or is it even fullsize?

However, if the 2700W of heating element is designed for 240V, resistance is fixed and half voltage equals half current, I-squared x R gives you 675W of heat. Not quite half a hair dryer. It definitely wouldn't exceed 20A, or the more conservative UL rating for single appliances at 120V on a 20A line, 1600W. But it would exceed your patience waiting for towels to dry. Roughly an hour and a half, depending upon humidity.

Running a (dedicated) 240V dryer on 120V may be possible but it's definitely not 'right'. This (government**) building runs 240V stoves on 218V*. 22V doesn't sound like that much is missing, but due to I-squared R above, it behaves as if 44V were missing, or 196V. You know how surface elements are supposed to light up on 'high'? Well they still do but you have to turn the room lights off to tell that they are 'lit up' at all.

(* 218V is a compromise between 120V to neutral in dual phase [normal household] power and 3-phase industrial power which produces 120V to neutral and 208V between 120* phases. They up the 120V to 125, and then the 208 comes out 218 (+5V on both phases). These are measured, not theoretical or imaginary values.)

(** Not only for the wonky power, but stay out of government institutional housing if at all possible. You wouldn't believe the smells. We're talking boiled pig intestines. If that doesn't sound bad enough, it smells worse.)


Post# 738659 , Reply# 3   3/2/2014 at 04:55 (3,679 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
The question might be what voltage the motor is. If that's a 240V one, it's not possible.

Post# 738663 , Reply# 4   3/2/2014 at 05:07 (3,679 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Three Prong 220v Plug

launderess's profile picture
Is what some European laundry appliances use here in the USA instead of the more common four prong American. European appliances that run on 208V-240v power use three prongs not the four we have here. Miele's washing machines and dryers required the four prong but that is also because they ran on 120v/220v, IIRC.

European dryers tend to run on lower wattages than what you'd find in the USA. My AEG is only 2735 watts, and some Miele dryers only ran on 2700 to 3000 watts.

To the OP's query you need a dedicated 220v line, not a 20amp/120v. However think your are wanting to run the power from two separate 120v outlets (that are out of sync) to get 220v. That may or may not work and could be dangerous over the long run.

If you own this apartment would probably be easier and safer to have an electrician take a look at the circuit panel box and see if a 220v outlet can be added. If so that seems a better option.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 738705 , Reply# 5   3/2/2014 at 11:00 (3,678 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
240 Volt Bosch Condenser Dryer

combo52's profile picture
If you have a dedicated 120 volt outlet you can have an electrician change a breaker in the panel to a two pole breaker and change the outlet, this will give you a 208 or 240 outlet to run the dryer [ there is NO 220 volt power in NY, or any where else in the US for that matter ]

If you could post a picture of the model# tag and rating plate from the dryer we can tell for sure.

Even if the dryer has a 120 volt motor and would run on 120 volts the heat output would be so low to make an already slow dryer almost useless, even if you only have 208 volts in your apartment the dryer will take 25% longer to dry than it would on 240 volts.


Post# 738734 , Reply# 6   3/2/2014 at 12:22 (3,678 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
It would work out with a vented dryer perhaps, but with a condenser dryer you need a reasonable difference between the inner and the outer temperature, otherwise the condensing system will not work or work very inefficiently.

Post# 738746 , Reply# 7   3/2/2014 at 13:04 (3,678 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
there is NO 220 volt power in NY, or any where else in the U

launderess's profile picture
Really? Don't tell Bosch.

Post# 738747 , Reply# 8   3/2/2014 at 13:05 (3,678 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

Thank you for your replies.
Unfortunately it's the only dryer possible to use due to lack of venting.
Long drying times don't make an issue, a separate spin dryer may also help with that.
Unfortunately I rent the apartment, and don't think rewiring anything would ever be possible.
Even if it would take 3h to dry a load of towels, it's still a much better option than laundromat(never), line drying or hanging exhaust duct out of the window.
Regarding the inner and outer temperatures, during the winter I got the marvelous idea to open the condenser chamber and let the warm, moist air into the room - and the dryer never got noticeably warmer. It seems the closed air circulation system doesn't need too much power. On the low-heat settings only the 2000W heater is used, and the glass door get painfully hot to touch after around 30 minutes.
Scan of wiring diagram attached. It seems the motor is connected to both hot wires.


Post# 738748 , Reply# 9   3/2/2014 at 13:06 (3,678 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

And plate.

Post# 738754 , Reply# 10   3/2/2014 at 13:26 (3,678 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Can't Be Done I'm Afraid

launderess's profile picture
Again unlike Miele dryers sold in the USA (120v/208v-240v), what you've got a hold of there requires pure 208v-240v power, that is nothing inside runs on 120v.

For the record have both condenser dryer and vented (older Whirlpool compact), and the latter beats the former IMHO in terms of performance. Vented dryers simply get the job done faster. With Con Edison seemingly have gone mad this winter with rates, has put me off the idea of running a dryer for two or more hours to dry a load that can be done in an hour or less.

At 2500w you are pushing slightly above the max draw of a 120v/20 amp circuit. Depending upon how touchy your circuit breakers are they may not like this.


Post# 738799 , Reply# 11   3/2/2014 at 17:35 (3,678 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Transformer

Wouldn't a transformer be the best/easiest option?? No rewiring needed, and useable for any appliance!! :-)

I have a nice 7.5kVA 110/120V - 220/240V dual primaries/secondaries.... four 30Amp windings... Transforms either way, or just provides isolation..... Built in the U.S.A. by Elgar/Onan.

Highly recommended :-)

All best

Dave T

P.S. I just attemped to use a 'pointed' bracket (shift ',' and shift '.') at each end of the hyphen above, in order to emphasise the 'either-way' transformation capabilities, but the site would have none of it.... Is this a 'known' issue???


Post# 738801 , Reply# 12   3/2/2014 at 17:49 (3,678 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        
Transformers?

I'd like to hear more about the transformer option. How would it work in that situation. I'm afraid I'd know very little about electricity.

Thanks,

Jim


Post# 738819 , Reply# 13   3/2/2014 at 18:20 (3,678 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

I guess a transformer would work but either by limiting usage to 100W or having a 40amp line.
It's a longe shot, but since there are two separate 20amp 120v lines available, may it be split between two cords?


Post# 738823 , Reply# 14   3/2/2014 at 18:26 (3,678 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Transformer

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Largest step-up/down transformers sold for domestic use that do not require hard wring are 5000 watts. A dryer pulling 2700watts is going to put a strain on all but the highest quality (all come from mostly Asia/China and are of varying quality). Many state up front that they aren't to be used for appliances that generate heat or cold such as dryers, ovens, etc...

Then there is the problem you cannot obtain more than 2400 watts from a 120v/20amp circuit. Drawing 2700 watts for this dryer is only slightly over that amount but depending upon how long the dryer is run (and more importantly how often and long the heaters are engaged), circuit breakers could trip or fuses blow.




This post was last edited 03/02/2014 at 19:00
Post# 738825 , Reply# 15   3/2/2014 at 18:30 (3,678 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

The wattage would be limited to 2100 by using the 2000W heater only (low-temp deactivates the 700W).
In this case, should one cord be attached to ground and L1, and the other to L2?


Post# 738847 , Reply# 16   3/2/2014 at 19:45 (3,678 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
240 Volt Bosch Condenser Dryer

combo52's profile picture
Unfortunately your dryer has a 208-240 volt motor so you can not run it without using a transformer, which you may be able to do if you never use the full heater wattage.

Hi Launderess, there is NO 220 volt power in this country, other countries do have 220 volt power, you have taught me many things for which I am grateful and I know that you always strive for correctness and that is why I am making a point about voltages, when people start talking about 220 volt current it makes them look very misinformed, you quickly loose credibility among people that actually know something about home wiring systems.


Post# 738856 , Reply# 17   3/2/2014 at 20:13 (3,678 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
@Combo

launderess's profile picture
It's a cold Sunday and one is stuck indoors! Am just pulling your chain on this "220v" stuff because I *know* I can! *LOL*



Post# 738876 , Reply# 18   3/2/2014 at 21:32 (3,678 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Are you sure the panel only has 120? Unless its a very, very old building its highly unlikely. Is there a dedicated AC outlet somewhere? Ant circuit you don't need?

 

 

Assuming the dryer is straight 240 and not slash 120/240 rated it can be done. I would say the amp draw is about 11.25 amps at those wattages, probably about 14 with the motor and everything. If its over 14 amps you will need 12 gauge wire and a 20 amp circuit.  

 

Anyways, all that would need to be done is moving the black and white wires to a double pole breaker. Your going to get 240 or more likely 208 since a lot of NY is fed from 3 phase networks.

 

Next step would be to add a NEMA 6-15 or 6-20 outlet for the dryer, and make sure no other outlets are on that circuit or there is zero chance of anything being plugged in if so. Your probably better off taking those out just in case.

 

I read that you renting so be careful, and of course before you do this run your findings by us.

 

Truth is without 208 or 240 the dryer will not work. If its slash rated it might since the heaters could just be dropped onto the 120 volt line and will run at 1/4 the power.

 

A transformer will be heavy and expensive in the hundreds of dollars range. And if your looking for 20 amps at 240 the transformer will need at least a 40 or 50amp breaker at 120 volts. Good chance you will not have wiring that thick in your apartment unless its feeding a range which would then mean you do have 208/240.  A transformer at that power will be very impractical and will cost the same of just getting a compact 120 volt whirlpool dryer.  

 

Only way to make this work would be the availability of 208 or 240 and some rewiring.


Post# 738880 , Reply# 19   3/2/2014 at 21:50 (3,678 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

"It's a longe shot, but since there are two separate 20amp 120v lines available, may it be split between two cords"

 

 

NO!! Don't do this, its a liability and a danger. There is a lot wrong with that, and I just looked at your label, you need 208 or 240 there is no way around that.

 

If you are comfortable with what your doing take the cover off your panel and send a pic. I can immediately tell you if its possible or not.

 

Sorry about this though, Ive been there before.


Post# 738893 , Reply# 20   3/2/2014 at 22:22 (3,678 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

Well that was a desperate kind of thought.
Quick look at the breaker box revealed there is only enough space left for a single-pole breaker.
It would be too much, and I'm slowly adapting to the thought of selling it.
All your answers are greatly appreciated!
Time to hunt for a 120v thingy.


Post# 738910 , Reply# 21   3/3/2014 at 02:15 (3,678 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
I don't know if Kenmore still sells a 120V dryer but I have one since 1984 and it works fine. Large loads of hard-to-dry need split in half is all. It MUST be vented however, unless you don't mind a ton of lint and humidity in the house.

Shows how much I know, I assumed "condenser" meant like the combos, cooled by tap water and drained. Not, eh?

In 1953 we had a house with no vent and we tried a duct into a pail of water. Hypothetically the water would take the humidity and lint out. So much for hypothesis.


Post# 738912 , Reply# 22   3/3/2014 at 02:46 (3,678 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
@OP

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You could try one of these gadgets:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 738913 , Reply# 23   3/3/2014 at 02:51 (3,678 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Or try using a 5000w step-up converter/transformer

launderess's profile picture
It is likely going to be big, and heavy. You may also have to change the plug on your Bosch dryer. Even so am guessing with the long times for a condenser dryer the thing may get very hot and or cause your panel box to sense an overload and trip.

Being as all this may you probably would want to look into something else to use during the warmer months anyway. Tried to use my condenser last year during warmer months and it really wasn't the best idea.


Post# 738919 , Reply# 24   3/3/2014 at 04:12 (3,678 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield, East Midlands, UK)        
@WashingPowder

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You have not mentioned what type of washing machine you have but you mentioned above the possibility of you getting a spin dryer as well. This will help considerably on cutting down the drying time, no matter what type of tumble dryer you end up with. On the negative side you will find that laundry will be considerably more creased so you may not want to put items like shirts in it unless you REALLY enjoy ironing, but for things like towels, under clothing and bedding it will make a real difference.

I am not in the US for hopefully Laundress can point you to some US items

Good luck

Al


Post# 738953 , Reply# 25   3/3/2014 at 09:27 (3,677 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        
Not enough space

chetlaham's profile picture
Welcome! :)


How many circuits are in there now? They do make tendem breakers and wafer thins where 2 120 volts circuits can come from one pole. This woud free up enogh space for a 2 pole.

But if thats not in your interest only option would be 120 volts.

Good luck in this!


Post# 739079 , Reply# 26   3/3/2014 at 18:26 (3,677 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
240 Volt Bosch Condenser Dryer

combo52's profile picture
The device in Launderess replay #22 would work if you have two separate 20 Amp circuits in the same area that are on different sides of the power supply in the circuit panel, it would of coerce not produce 220 volts but rather 208 or 240 volts depending on the electrical service your building has.

Even if one was foolish enough to use one of these compact dryers unvented without a lint bag they will produce very little lint in the house if you only clean the lint filter every 3-6 loads instead of after every load, the lint filter in any dryer filters much better if it already has at least a thin layer of lint on it already. On these compact dryers with their tiny heaters and over-sized lint filters this will never cause any problem with drying speed or present any other hazard.

A 120 volt WP built compact dryer is another great way to dry clothing. The lack of a proper outside vent is NOT a big problem, in the winter just vent the dryer into a pillow case cover and enjoy the heat and added humidity. In the summer run a flexible vent hose to a partly opened window, this should be easy to disguise and no one will see any steam coming from your window if the outside temperature is above approximately 50F.


Post# 739081 , Reply# 27   3/3/2014 at 18:28 (3,677 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
240 Volt Bosch Condenser Dryer

combo52's profile picture
Oops in my reply #26 I reversed the last two paragraphs.

Post# 739092 , Reply# 28   3/3/2014 at 19:19 (3,677 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Partially Open Window

launderess's profile picture
Have found that unless you drop the vent hose several feet down and way from the window, lint/dust is sucked back into the home via the draft. Have seen various "window vent" type things either purchased or custom built used for being able to give the hose access to outdoors but otherwise seal the window so to prevent the above. The added benefit is that one can also run the dryer without letting in air from outdoors if for some reason that is not desired.

We were lucky to nab a window vent kit off eBay for dirt cheap. For others it is simply a bit of wood with an opening made to accommodate the hose/vent opening. A friend of ours used one of those window venting kits sold for portable air conditioners.


Post# 739116 , Reply# 29   3/3/2014 at 22:19 (3,677 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

This guy beats the GE and Heir compacts hands down,

 

 

http://www.whirlpool.com/-[LDR3822PQ]-1001392/LDR3822PQ/


Post# 739152 , Reply# 30   3/4/2014 at 03:13 (3,677 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Re: Transformer

'Big' - Not necessarily.... 1/4 Cu ft max...

'Heavy' - Certainly!! (for it's size)

My thought on a transformer is that it's a useful piece of kit to have around. Depending on the type bought, it can transform up, down, or 'the same, but isolated'. I'm not sure how common 'Earth Leakage' circuit breakers (ELCBs)are in the U.S., but here they've been mandatory for domestic installations since (I think) the early 1990s. Generally, they are a 'good thing', but can cause problems through 'nuisance tripping', especially where there are lots of modern 'electronica' in use, all with high leakage 'switch mode' power supplies. Another problem is that a single appliance with a 'slight' fault will cut the power to the entire home. A neighbour of mine had a 'pinhole' in the heater of her washing machine, such that it would 'trip' the ELCB upon the first usage in the morning. I lent her my transformer, so that she could continue to use the machine until she could arrange a repair. As a young mother with a large family, having no usable washing machine was not an option... ;-)

The 7500W transformer that I have is a specialist 'ultra-isolation' type with a VERY large iron core. It's weight is such that I can no longer (as I get older) lift it from the floor unassisted, but can still carry it from one table/bench to another. I would guess that it's about 150-180 lbs. Lighter types are available... Check Ebay, etc.

All best

Dave T

P.S. For those interested, mine has four windings - Two Primaries, Two Secondaries, which can be series or parallel connected, hence the up/down/same capability. The oversize core helps to filter electical 'noise' by losing it in 'Iron Loss'. There is full screening between the windings to provide coupling of 30pF equivalent or less. It was designed (I think) to supply an 'isolated' laboratory.


Post# 739352 , Reply# 31   3/4/2014 at 22:58 (3,676 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

I'm renting a coop and the mgmt company did not allow me to make any changes. It's probably because there's something strange going on with wiring in this apartment. For example one of the 20A outlets seems to be omitting the breakers.
Anyways, I saw a couple of those cheap, seemingly made in Asia dryers on Amazon and don't think I would go for it. Whirlpool, GE or Kenmore (the latter preferred due to temp selection). However GE is the only one that forces air from back to the door area, instead of left-to-right, which might be be more efficient when drying bulky items. However I'm certainly not willing the price of a new one(around $800 for this?) so hunting Craigslist and eBay, and planning to visit those used appliance stores in LI. Wish I had a car!
@Launderess, I was thinking it might happen, but I have an unused window fan. Maybe placing the dryer's exhaust near it so it sucks it all out be some sort of a solution. Otherwise, I'll look around for window venting. Thank you!
@Vacbear, I'm a proud owner of a top-loading GE Spacemaker. Absolutely fabulous machine for all but extra bulky, like comforters, loads. If it had a dual-action agitator it wouldn't be the case. And I love it has hidden options that were not to be found in the manual like selecting up to 5 extra rinses, time of wash or time of spin. Not sure about the RPM's but putting it through two 7-minute spin cycle was comparable to my previous Bosch (1200RPM)
@Dave, now I don't think I would be brave enough to use such a transformer considering this building's wiring. After all it's NYC, in most old buildings your lights dim when you plug in your iron.


Post# 739356 , Reply# 32   3/4/2014 at 23:29 (3,676 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Compact Dryer

launderess's profile picture
On any given day there are several vintage Whirlpool (also badged as Kenmore) compact/portable dryers on CL, eBay, and so forth. These are often going for pennies and most are in decent enough condition. You *may* want to do a tear down and deep cleaning, but not always required. In the end these units will suffice better than anything modern from Asia.

Got my harvest gold WP portable from a CL seller in Queens. Quite honestly renting a minivan and the tolls on the TBB cost more than the dryer (it cost <$20) and hasn't let me down in over ten years of use.

If I were going to try and run anything 220v and go through all the rigmarole you will need, would aim for a vented unit. At least drying times would be faster and you can use it all year long, even in hot summers.


Post# 739371 , Reply# 33   3/5/2014 at 03:00 (3,676 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Wiring in Apartment Buildings

@ WashingPowder
Thanks for the 'heads up' on the state of your building's wiring. It doesn't surprise me. There are plenty of buildings on this side of the 'Pond' in a similar condition. The incoming main supply and wiring was installed in the days when lighting (and perhaps the occasional electric iron) was the only anticipated load, perhaps 5A per apartment (10A Statesside). The 'Incomer' from the supply company is probably inadequate, too. These systems struggle on because the building owners refuse to spend the money to upgrade. Eventually the odd wiring fire will necessitate some changes. Your socket which 'omits' (bypasses??) the breakers is probably wired to someone else's breakers in a neighbouring apartment. Check to see if your meter registers the load on that socket.

Sometimes I forget how lucky I am, owning my own (humble little) home.

All best

Dave T


Post# 739841 , Reply# 34   3/6/2014 at 13:45 (3,674 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
IIRC per NYC code when substantial renovations (such as a gut overhaul) and or something to do with electrical work takes place fuse boxes must be replaced with circuit breakers. Plenty of older buildings in NYC still have fuse boxes but when individual apartments are renovated a circuit panel swaps out the fuse box.

This however does not change the amount of power going into units. That is what it was before hence the skimpy panel found in the OP's unit. Yes, it is just as alluded to above; apartments sized for how persons lived in 1940's, 1960's or whatever but not modern times. You might have two each of 15amp and 20amp for a grand total of 70amps for the entire place. Often outlets are few which is why so many New Yorker's have extension cords and or power strips all over the place. An overloaded or malfunctioning power strip was the cause of that high rise fire a few months ago that resulted in one death.

Keep in mind however most apartments in NYC, at least the older rental units usually have only two main draws on electric power; the AC and fridge. There might be a microwave as well. Other than that the rest comes from all the tech/electronic mod cons such as computers, televisions, cell phone chargers etc.....

Even many older pre-war co-op apartments and or even quasi modern rental buildings are very underpowered for today's electrical demands. Hence the situation one has always mentioned about Miele laundry appliances, many persons wanted them but either did not have or weren't allowed to install the required "220v" (yea Combo I know....) power.

In instances where the wiring in units was that out of date even the meter/box in the basement couldn't handle simply adding 208v-240v service. It could require running a new feeder cable from Con Edison in the street to the building. That is very costly and not something every co-op board or landlord would approve.

You begin to see why Miele gave up the ghost and finally had to offer 120v at least washers.


Post# 739842 , Reply# 35   3/6/2014 at 13:52 (3,674 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Back on topic

launderess's profile picture
OP, if you truly want to use your Bosch dryer find yourself a step-up transformer (minimum 5000w) and give it a go. You'll probably have to change the plug on the Bosch dryer to fit that of the transformer, but that can be sorted out after you have the thing home.

If you are pulling too much power thus overloading your wiring the breaker should trip, and that will give you your answer. Especially if resetting won't happen until it "cools". These transformers have either breaker protection or fuses, if they go then again you are pulling too much power for the unit to handle safely.

Under no circumstances would I "set and forget" your dryer when using a transformer however. Nor would I leave the place with things plugged in/running.

Personally however feel this still won't solve the problem of running a condenser dryer during hot/humid NYC weather times of the year. Cannot imagine the electrical costs for running the AC to keep an apartment cool and dry enough for the condenser dryer to work properly.


Post# 739891 , Reply# 36   3/6/2014 at 16:39 (3,674 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

I don't know why a transformer is even being mentioned, rewiring would still be needed. The primary full load current when the dryer is running would be about 25 amp at 120 volts, which would need a 10 gauge wire circuit. Unless large 240 volt appliances exists its highly unlikely there would be any circuit with over 12 gauge copper. Usually when an appliance runs over 2000 VA such as an A/C or water heater the norm is to have it run on 240, hence why circuits with wire sizes over 12 cu tend to be 240.

 

 

 

Only way to know if a 240 volt dryer is feasible is to pull the cover off the panel and see whats up. If the apartment has electrical less than 40 years old, or has any large appliances such as an electric range there will be 240. Usually the feeders to the tenant panel tend to be 60amp with #4 Aluminum or #6 copper, which will be plenty for the dryer. However if your unit is all gas with air conditioning supplied from a central chiller or a little 120 volt window shaker you could have anything in your panel. Its not uncommon for older apartments to have a 120 volt 30 or 40 amp feed to the tenant panel and the unit having 2 15 amp general outlet an lighting circuits and 1 20 amp for the entire kitchen. In that case 240 volts even with a transformer will not be feasible. The power just isn't there. 25 amps on a 30 amp line only leaves 5 amps, enough for a few lights. Anything else like the fridge starting will just blow protective current device feeding your panel.  

 


Post# 739901 , Reply# 37   3/6/2014 at 16:58 (3,674 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
I don't know why a transformer is even being mentioned

launderess's profile picture
Because living in New York City long as one has have seen what persons who are dead set in using their European appliances here have done.

Being a global destination city persons come here with all sorts of equipment best have left on the other side of the pond, but for various reasons was not, then ways are found to "make it work". When such items turn up on fleaPay or CL that have obviously been used recently the question becomes how was it so?

Is this safe? Probably not but then again persons kept putting coins in fuse boxes for years when the dangers were by then well known.

Cannot verify this but our electrician once told us that older and some newish if not modern building had wiring that was greater than code requirement. This apparently was done to reduce risks of fires or whatever. Again do not know if this is true or false. However it just *might* be that the wiring inside walls are better than they should be for load.


Post# 739906 , Reply# 38   3/6/2014 at 17:16 (3,674 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

My concern is we are not talking about a low wattage import but rather a clothes dryer. A 1500 watt European appliance plugged into a step up transformer will not tax a standard wall outlet. A 1500 watt 230 volt euro appliance draws about 6.5 amps, which would equate to about 12.5 amps at 120 volts, in reality about 12.6 amps factoring in the transformer losses. 13 amp is perfectly find for a standard 15 amp circuit found in homes.

 

 

A 2800 watt dryer on the other hand will force a step up transformer to draw at least 24 amps. This will overwhelm  a standard 15 amp circuit as well as a 20 amp circuit. A 15 amp breaker will keep tripping and a 20 will on occasion assuming both are working ok and no other loads are present. If the circuit is old and already on its last leg this will do it in.

 

The only way to have this be safe would be to use a 30 amp 10 gauge wire circuit at minimum.

 

"if not modern building had wiring that was greater than code requirement. This apparently was done to reduce risks of fires or whatever. Again do not know if this is true or false. However it just *might* be that the wiring inside walls are better than they should be for load"

 

 

Some contractor may choose to add more circuits or have larger feeders to panels then codes require, but I highly doubt they are running 10 guage copper to ever 120 volt circuit. Even if they are code does not allow standard 120 volt cicuits to be protected over 20 amps, and even if they were a standard outlet and plug is only designed to handle 15 or 20 amps max. Not what the transformer will be pulling.      


Post# 739907 , Reply# 39   3/6/2014 at 17:22 (3,674 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
My concern is we are not talking about a low wattage import

launderess's profile picture
So was I. Washing machines, dryers, laundry press....

Post# 739908 , Reply# 40   3/6/2014 at 17:28 (3,674 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
So was I.

chetlaham's profile picture

Then using a standard 120 volt 15 or 20 amp circuit to run these is not an option. I hope you not advocating that this be done, because it dangerous. A newer electrical system may might put up with this the plug and outlet less so but if this is something on its last legs there is a real risk of fire, less so if new but the risk is still there.

 

This appliance needs  a circuit of adequate capacity regardless of how its run.


Post# 739936 , Reply# 41   3/6/2014 at 20:10 (3,674 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
New York Apartments

combo52's profile picture
Most apartments in NY have 208 volts instead of 240 Volts, we have the same 208 volt situation in about 1/2 of the multifamily housing in Washington D C . And while appliances get hooked up the same way as a single phase 240 volt system, 208 volts lowers the Amp draw and causes a 240 volt heating element to put out 25% less heat.

This is part of the reason so many city dwellers dislike their electric ranges, an average electric range slows down to the point that many gas ranges are as fast as electric ranges operated on 208 volts.


Post# 740082 , Reply# 42   3/7/2014 at 13:42 (3,673 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield, East Midlands, UK)        
Compact Dryer

vacbear58's profile picture
You might find the thread on the link useful to read, as it features restoration of a used Whirlpool 120V dryer so might show what you are in for with a used dryer.

Ultramatic who started the thread has several of these and lives in New York so maybe you could do a deal with him to purchase one. Good hunting :)

Al


CLICK HERE TO GO TO vacbear58's LINK


Post# 740207 , Reply# 43   3/8/2014 at 01:38 (3,673 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        
Tangentially......

arbilab's profile picture
..... there IS such thing as 220V. I live in it. Built 15 years ago to the month. Measured 218V, and standard plugs are 125V. So the building runs on 3-phase and the ratios have been jiggered slightly to put 5V more on each leg, thus 10V more between 120* phases. We throw away an astonishing volume of fluorescent lamps, I have never seen them 'all' operating correctly at any time, even right after the electricians have been here. The performance of the 240V stove is 'disappointing' to put it politely. The coinop dryers take the same 40 min that my 120V LK does, with slightly larger capacity.

Other than load balancing the only thing in the building that actually USES 3-phase is the elevator pump.

So yes, you CAN have 220V running your 240V appliances. And you won't like it.


Post# 740218 , Reply# 44   3/8/2014 at 06:18 (3,673 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

At my workplace we "live" with higher than usual line voltage here,too.The voltage we are fed with is nominal 4160V it reads 4330V on the newly installed and calibrated line voltmeters in the MV switchgear here.The 4160 is converted to 3 other LV voltages here-208/120V for gen building loads,and 230 3Ph for the Continental Electronics transmitter 230V feeds for the blowers,pumps,and LV supplies.another pair Main,Aux 208/120V feeders go for the control room feeds.Our LV read high like Arbilabs do.Think his building is fed with "nominal" 208/120V voltage-but his power company is running the voltage high as ours is doing.Sometimes it causes one of our transmitters to trip out from overvolage and stays off until the line voltage goes back down.The devices that run from 208/120V are fine here.The 230V 3Ph supply reads 240V.All of these are within the usual 10Percent high or low powerline voltage tolerence.So we have to live with it.

Post# 740489 , Reply# 45   3/8/2014 at 23:57 (3,672 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
High line voltage

chetlaham's profile picture

Elevated line voltage tends to be the norm for those who live close to the supply substation. Power companies generally run outgoing power lines at a slightly higher voltage to compensate for voltage drop. Generally the goal is to have those at the beginning of the line above average with most of those in the middle at 120 and those toward the end a tad lower. My house is close to the substation that feeds my town, thus I tend to measure about 123 124 volts on average. When I lived out on the far side my old house would get about 117 in the winter 114 during the summer. So far no ill effects, other than a few high hat flood lights burning out a tad quicker, nothing of worry or noticeable. The good part though about being close to a substation is power goes out less frequently, and when it does after a major storm your one of the first to get it back.  

 

 

 

Just for the sake of the convo Eastern Europe had a normal operating voltage of 220/380 while the UK had the norm of 240/415. A few years ago the European union set a harmonized standard of 230/400 volts 50Hz. Truth is other than new installs not much has changed, but appliances sold in the EU are required to have about a +10% -6% tolerance (if memory serves right) Although Ive had a family member say he has gotten readings as high as 247 in the UK few years back.

 

 

http://www.twothirtyvolts.org.uk/pdfs/site-info/Explanation_230Volts.pdf

 

My 2 cents.  

 


Post# 740494 , Reply# 46   3/9/2014 at 00:31 (3,672 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
We're only a block from the substation, might have something to do with it. Sorry, didn't mean to derail, we were talking about dryers.

Post# 740617 , Reply# 47   3/9/2014 at 09:38 (3,672 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Don't sweat it, its interesting stuff. :)


Post# 741056 , Reply# 48   3/11/2014 at 00:45 (3,670 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

At he workplace-we hve our own substation that steps 115Kv 3Ph to 4160.Several other major customers are on the same 115Kv line as us-DuPont,Weyerhauser,and some other companies.These would be major customers-not homes.

Post# 742781 , Reply# 49   3/17/2014 at 18:52 (3,663 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
A bit more from the rainy side of the Pond

Re: Reply#38
I wasn't aware that wiring regulations were so restrictive Statesside. Here our (ring-main) disribution is fused at 30/32 Amps, so each ring circuit is good for 7kW. It is quite possible to fit a 32A BS4343/CEE17 socket to run heavy loads. This is not 'normal' domestic practice, but many of us have them.

Re: Reply#45
The 'Euro-harmonisation' (Read: 'Diktat') for supply voltages seems to have been greeted with a healthy degree of cynicism by my local supply company. Their attitude is that their existing distribution voltages (at 240/415) are 'within acceptable tolerance', so they have changed nothing, much to the relief of their customers. :-)

All best

Dave T



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