Thread Number: 51687
Are we there yet? Heat pump dryers
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Post# 740784   3/9/2014 at 19:14 (3,672 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

Just a few weeks ago I read (sorry, I forget where) yet again about heat pump dryers being sold/about to be sold in the U.S. by Miele, LG, etc.

I did some googling and found nothing recent. To muddy the waters further, it was obvious that some of the writers/posters assumed that any ventless dryer was automatically a heat pump dryer simply because it was ventless. Yes, I know that makes no sense, but there you are...

My conclusion is that there are no heat pump dryers currently sold in the U.S. However, I'd love to be wrong. Does any one know of any heat pump dryers actually for sale in the USA?

Thanks,

Jim





Post# 740786 , Reply# 1   3/9/2014 at 19:18 (3,672 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Not that one has seen.

launderess's profile picture
Vent-less tumble dryers largely have a bad name in the USA and at best serve a niche market. Cannot see that changing enough to warrant bringing an "improved" condenser type dryer to these shores.

Post# 740838 , Reply# 2   3/9/2014 at 23:33 (3,672 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

That's what I thought. I was sure that if heat pump dryers really were available I'd've heard about it here or from some other reliable source.

I'll only go ventless if I absolutely have to in order to avoid the laundromat.

Thanks again.


Post# 740855 , Reply# 3   3/10/2014 at 05:53 (3,672 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
LG is goint to release its DLHX4072V Hybrid heat-pump dryer this summer, according to Consumer Reports. It has a heat-pumo and a conventionlal electric heating element, thus the Hybrid. These units have been available, although in a smaller 24" version, in Europe for some time.






Post# 740880 , Reply# 4   3/10/2014 at 08:18 (3,671 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Speed Mode?

mrb627's profile picture
16.8 min per KG isn't very quick, is it?

Malcolm


Post# 740883 , Reply# 5   3/10/2014 at 08:52 (3,671 days old) by paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland)        
Malcolm,

paulc's profile picture
Condenser dryers always take longer to dry than vented. 151.2 minutes to dry 9kg of laundry isn't too bad for a condenser dryer. My last dryer, a condenser unit, took 2 hours to dry 5kg of laundry. I now have a vented dryer, thankfully, an can do 6kg in less than an hour.

Post# 740887 , Reply# 6   3/10/2014 at 09:34 (3,671 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Heat-pump dryers are generally not that fast. There were some that were alsmost as fast a normal condenser dryers but the consumer is always looking for the next best ultra-efficient appliance. Therefore, heat-pump dryers got slower and slower.

With a full 8 kg load, which is 17.6 lbs, of standardized cotton items spun at 1,000 rpm, which translates to a residual moisture content of 60%, I have found the following times stated on the manufacturer's websites:

Miele A++ efficiency = 149 minutes

Bosch A+++ efficiency = 187 minutes
Bosch A++ efficiency = 138 minutes

AEG A+++ efficiency = 215 minutes
AEG A++ efficiency = 170 minutes

Keep in mind that the drums of these dryers are about half the size of US dryers, while the load capacity is almost the same - we're talking about a FULL drum of clothes here.

Switzerland has already outlawed anything but HP dryers to be sold and vented dryers are rapidly disappearing from manufacturer's homepages, too. I'm glad I got my hands on a regular condenser Bosch that gets things over with in around an hour and would most certainly buy a vented dryer if I could.


Post# 740928 , Reply# 7   3/10/2014 at 14:43 (3,671 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Well...

mrb627's profile picture
They probably wont be much of a hit here in the states...

Malcolm


Post# 740933 , Reply# 8   3/10/2014 at 14:58 (3,671 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Well, I guess that's what many people said about front loaders, too. And then came Energy Star, Tier III Energy Efficiency and all that...

Post# 740936 , Reply# 9   3/10/2014 at 15:15 (3,671 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
As one recalls dryers here in the USA are not subject to much energy regulation because they all pretty much are the same. What does vary is heating power and source of fuel.

Some places such as California IIRC want residents to move away from electric to gas dryers or maybe I've got that in reverse.

Where electric power rates are cheaper than gas (natural or propane) that is usually what people have installed, or again vice-versa. Here in NYC aside from small compact units/portables most every dryer I've seen or known uses natural or propane gas.


Post# 741073 , Reply# 10   3/11/2014 at 06:22 (3,671 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
dryers in the USA are not subject to much energy regulation

logixx's profile picture
Well, that used to be the case in Europe as well. But then heat-pump dryers entered the scene and made "normal" dryers look like huge energy hogs. Just look at Switzerland; they basically made anything but heapt-pump dryers illegal - from sale, owning one is still okay. ;)

Even commercial models, both small and large, are offered in HP versions from Miele, for example. And said company has already removed vented dryers from its US homepage altogether.


Post# 741109 , Reply# 11   3/11/2014 at 11:28 (3,670 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Prius Market

mrb627's profile picture
Perhaps the Prius marketplace will purchase these, but the average American will pass on them. Clothes would dry quicker on a clothesline, but wait, we cannot have those either. Seems our Energy focus is off track somehow.

Malcolm


Post# 741118 , Reply# 12   3/11/2014 at 12:24 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
I'm with Mrb627

launderess's profile picture
Cannot see these heat pump dryers giving any major competition to what most Americans are used to having.

Miele's large vented dryer to match the 4XXX series washers was simply a hot mess. IIRC it was the first such dryer especially in gas that Miele had built and it like the washers of the series had all kinds of problems.

The "Little Giant" series vented dryer is still sold in North America, but yes Miele has discontinued their "standard European capacity" models of same. You can still find them in shops or other vendors but once the supply is gone that is that.

The decision to move away from vented dryers will add yet another nail into Miele's coffin in terms of US sales. You can look all over the Internet and classified adverts and find washers and dryers from that brand for sale, some NIB. The capacity is just too small for most American households, and non-vented dryers simply are hated by and large with a passion.

Miele, Asko, Bosch et al, all have made serious mistakes with the American domestic laundry appliance market. The USA is *NOT* Europe and often aside from trendy and or upscale early adaptors the general population at large does not care for their offerings.

When Miele launched with great fanfare their uber-sized laundry appliances they were supposed to be near commercial quality and rock solid to go up against Whirlpool's Duet. Well we know how it ended and the things were pulled from the market barely three years or so after introduction.


Post# 741120 , Reply# 13   3/11/2014 at 12:30 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Funny, I had to think of Prius owners as well. I remember seeing tons of them in Los Angeles. Everywhere.

Just browsing a few websites

bosch.de - 2 vented, 7 condenser, 24 heat-pump dryers
siemens.de - 2 vented, 8 condenser, 17 heat-pump dryers
miele.de - 1 vented, 9 condenser, 14 heat-pump dryers
aeg.de - 3 vented, 9 condenser, 21 heat-pump dryers
lg.de - only heat-pump dryers

amazon.de - 28 vented, 108 condenser, 167 heat-pump dryers

Seems that we're once again at the forefront of the green movement. Not sure if I really like that, though. Saving energy is great but tumbling clothes for up to three hours won't do them much good. So you save energy but spend more on clothes?


Post# 741122 , Reply# 14   3/11/2014 at 12:38 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

"Miele has discontinued their "standard European capacity" [vented] models"

 

And so has Bosch USA. :-/

 

Maybe I should get another dryer for storage. Vented dryers to us are like Speed Queen top loaders to you - get them while you can or go vintage. I wish American dryers were more readily available but they really only seem to pop up on eBay UK - used, of course.


Post# 741127 , Reply# 15   3/11/2014 at 13:09 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Bosch USA also like MieleUSA discontinued their "uber" sized laundry appliances after series of problems. The "Nexxt" series like the Miele huge capacity washers and dryers promised commercial quality in domestic machines, but again it didn't work out.

This is why I say various "imported" technology is not always a hit with the American market. Long as there are plenty of persons with reference points to top loaders and fast vented dryers that is the standard everything else is measured.


Post# 741136 , Reply# 16   3/11/2014 at 13:50 (3,670 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
The Miele standard capacity vented dryers are still on the website:

www.mieleusa.com/products/models....



Post# 741137 , Reply# 17   3/11/2014 at 13:56 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

But is says:

 

"Retired item: Check with dealer for availability"


Post# 741141 , Reply# 18   3/11/2014 at 14:11 (3,670 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I guess I missed that. Duh! lol

Post# 741144 , Reply# 19   3/11/2014 at 14:38 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Got Ya Didn't They!

launderess's profile picture
*LOL*

Almost was taken in myself until clicked the actual model numbers. Guess again MieleUSA only has what is left in their warehouse and no more vented dryers are being sent from Germany. Dealer supply may vary one supposes.


Post# 741164 , Reply# 20   3/11/2014 at 16:41 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Miele heat pump dryers for commercial use:

www.heatpumpdryers.com/...

US government examines the question of if heat pump dryers make sense for the American market: eetd.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/do_h...


Post# 741177 , Reply# 21   3/11/2014 at 17:35 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

Something's not quite right with the format of the video but it'll do:

 





Post# 741179 , Reply# 22   3/11/2014 at 17:49 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

As an alternative, Electrolux is working on a dryer that, from what I got out of skimming through the patent, recycles some of the process air. Picture 2 in this patent shows an IQ Touch dryer so we're not talking about a European product here.

 

www.google.com/patents/US20130255...


Post# 741279 , Reply# 23   3/12/2014 at 03:15 (3,670 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
Has nobody/anybody capitalized upon reducing the atmospheric pressure in a closed-loop dryer? Yes the vacuum pump uses power, adds cost and weight, as does the cabinetry to support subatmosphere barometrics. But it's SO much easier to evaporate water without adding heat by reducing pressure. And we're not talking surface-of-the-moon. Top-of-Mt-Everest will do, where the boiling point drops to 160F.

Post# 741294 , Reply# 24   3/12/2014 at 06:01 (3,670 days old) by washman (o)        
However,

'Well, I guess that's what many people said about front loaders, too. And then came Energy Star, Tier III Energy Efficiency and all that."

No, these came about due to government interference in a market economy.

And not too many souls are entirely happy about that but most just suck it up, complain to each other and accept what the good Gov't tells them.


Post# 741296 , Reply# 25   3/12/2014 at 06:12 (3,670 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Well, I did think about it!

But others have done it more professional. A swizz institut did a research on this!

Post# 741313 , Reply# 26   3/12/2014 at 09:43 (3,669 days old) by alineber ()        
Washman you're great!

"And not too many souls are entirely happy about that but most just suck it up, complain to each other and accept what the good Gov't tells them"


As Kung Fu would say, "You speak words of wisdom and truth." I will never conform to this Brainwashing, Eco Shouting, Gov't Tent Revival Meeting. Let them keep right on singing "Give Me That Old Time Eco Religion", while I continue to use my Anti-Eco Speed Queen top loader and dryer until they wear out. If Speed Queen stops making these washers and dryers, I will only use vintage machines.


Post# 741334 , Reply# 27   3/12/2014 at 12:56 (3,669 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        
Speaking of vintage....

Suppose you buy a new machine. You purchase a new one. Production of that new one costs resources (including water, if only for the bathrooms of the people who assemble it). Total up all the costs and resources and a set of figures. Then the old washer must be carted away and there are costs associated with that as well as with any recycling. Total those figures and add them to the first to get a grand total cost of the resources of replacing the broken machine. Now add yearly operations costs and get a grand total over 'X' number of years.

Now. take your vintage machine you've saved from recycling. Now, starting from the negative recycling cost (figured out above), start ADDING the yearly costs of using the less efficient, vintage machine over 'X' years.

How many years have to go by before the the cost of the vintage rises to the cost of the new one? I bet it'll be more than the life expectancy of the vintage machine!

Ergo, you're saving the planet by going vintage! You get to be a tree-hugger, thumb your nose at government over-regulation, AND have clean clothes all at the same time.

:-)



Post# 741380 , Reply# 28   3/12/2014 at 15:08 (3,669 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

@ washman

 

That's what I was trying to say: government making descisions for us. While Germany as a whole seems to be greener than the US, not everyone is "totally, super, uber happy"about their washer taking three hours to do a cycle and the dryer taking another three hours. BUT our government made the discision for us and simply removed some appliances from the market place. Appliances that they deem to be too inefficient. This fall, vacuum cleaners and range hoods will be required to carry an energy label. The good thing about that label is that it also includes performance evaluations. So appliances that save energy but do a miserable can hardly be sold.

 

In real life, most consumers rarely use the high-efficiency cycles because they simply take too long and manufacturers have responded to that. Now, you get to chose between HE or fast(er) cycles. Case in point: Bosch's most efficient dishwashers take 3:15 hrs. for the energy label ECO cycle or 1:05 hrs. for the speedier version, if one presses the "speed" botton. Germany's most efficient washer from Bosch takes 6:30 hrs. for the energy label cycle or less than an hour for the "speed" button version.


Post# 741381 , Reply# 29   3/12/2014 at 15:09 (3,669 days old) by alineber ()        
Warmsecondrinse

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!  Yes folks, we have a winner!

 

Wow! Now I can be a tree-hugging vintage appliance owner without the guilt and shame of owning these new high efficiency Government approved  appliances.  I feel so much better about myself.  LOL!

 

But there are so many things I will never be able to enjoy with these Eco Government approved appliances.

Like:

1. Wearing less than truly clean clothing.

2. Waiting for hours and hours for my dishes and clothes to finish their cycle.

3. Getting to know my appliance repairman on a first name basis.

4. Having to buy new appliances every 5 years.

5. The joy of buying cleaning products, to acctually clean the inside of the appliances, so they won't smell. 

6. Having to wash my dishes before I put them in my dishwasher.

 

Oh well, I'll try not to cry too much.  LOL!

 

 

 

Allen Smile

 

 


Post# 741382 , Reply# 30   3/12/2014 at 15:09 (3,669 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Vacuum dryer

logixx's profile picture
Post# 741395 , Reply# 31   3/12/2014 at 15:43 (3,669 days old) by alineber ()        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 741398 , Reply# 32   3/12/2014 at 15:53 (3,669 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I don't think there is anyone in the government interested in the energy use of appliances. There are just a few civil servants who focus on such things and have nothing else to do. This energy saving has both been going on under republican and democrat presidents. Appliances are just not important enough to draw the attention of anyone important. It's not a political thing, it just happens no matter who is in office.

Sorry for getting off topic. Political discussions belong in the Dirty Laundry forum after all.


Post# 741414 , Reply# 33   3/12/2014 at 17:25 (3,669 days old) by washman (o)        
logixx, did I read you correctly

A washer (I assume washing machine) taking 6 and a half hours do to a load?

Really?


Post# 741418 , Reply# 34   3/12/2014 at 17:35 (3,669 days old) by washman (o)        
alineber great might be stretching things a little

Ok maybe a lot!

I just got done watching Wolf Blowhard totally get off the track reporting on the Malaysian air crash and it took Pat Smith of askthepilot.com to level set him and get back to what is known, rather than compare a 777 safety record to that of a 737 et cetera.

Anyway, I put this out because this is an example of what an out of control agenda driven media does. It ignores facts and makes up stuff to fill a time slot or to garner ratings.

Same thing with laundry appliances. Too much hyperbole and not enough common sense means we're stuck with on the surface "green" products that have a much less green impact when one gives it a bit of thought.

Which is my big beef with most people today; they are unable or simply unwilling to get past what the media tells them and they accept it as the gospel.

But we have our Speed Queens and you can rest easy knowing a lot of members here seek out and restore old school washers and get them back to pristine condition and use them daily. Some have posted vids or pics and it really is great to see that going on.

Now if I can just reach out to Frigilux and get him off the laundry pods and back to his usual powder or liquid, I will rest easier at night! :)


Post# 741428 , Reply# 35   3/12/2014 at 17:55 (3,669 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Since we are careering off topic anyway....

launderess's profile picture
Governments do have a vested interest as increase energy use means the stuff has to come from somewhere. That means either building dams, burning fuels or nuclear. While the USA is blessed with abundant natural resources they are not infinite. Even then you cannot continue building more and more power plants much less increasing distribution systems forever. The ideal solution is going to involve some means of controlling demand as well.

European countries OTOH aren't always blessed with lots of fuels. Leaving aside the UK and other countries with access to North Sea oil reserves the most abundant fuel is probably coal, which brings it's own problems. Nuclear is rapidly falling out of favour with certain segments of the population but when you take that option off the table as France and Germany seem to be going, what replaces? Yes you can continue brining in natural gas from the East including Russia, but that is propping up Czar Putin of all the Russias.

As with so many other issues European countries can get away with top down edicts because of strong central governments.


Post# 741453 , Reply# 36   3/12/2014 at 19:29 (3,669 days old) by alineber ()        
Hey washman

You are so right, about the out of control agenda driven media.

"Which is my big beef with most people today; they are unable or simply unwilling to get past what the media tells them and they accept it as the gospel."

Lord isn't that the truth. When I have to deal with these people, I feel like Jean Stapleton in the 1971 movie Cold Turkey. There is a scene in the movie where she is about to go crazy, walking along the sidewalk, so she turns towards a light pole and start hitting her head against the pole. LOL!

I use Tide original powder in my Speed Queen top loader.

Thank you washman, Thank you Speed Queen, & Thank all of you vintage appliance restorers and sellers for helping me to keep my sanity. LOL!!!!


Post# 741465 , Reply# 37   3/12/2014 at 20:00 (3,669 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Yes washman, Bosch/Siemens Home Appliances is selling a washer that can wash up to 6.5 hours. Of course, you'll have to select a special cycle and press the ecoPerfect button to get it to wash that long and to achieve the energy savings that are promised on the big green sticker on the washer's front - but as long as people are only looking at the energy label and buy whatever uses the least energy that's what will be bought. I remember when I worked for Europe's biggest retailer of electronics: so many people would walk through the aisle with a piece of paper and actually note down the exact energy usage of an appliance. It was like they were obsessed with it. Sure, some would come up to me and ask for my advice but most didn't care.

We'll see where things are going. Recently, even Miele, a brand typically known for no-nonsense appliances, has added self-cleaning cycles to their washers and even dishwashers along with a warning in the manual against the too frequent use of the low-temp Eco cycle.

Oh well, I realize this is turning into a "The limited usefulness of the EU energy label" argument so I shall stop here.

Heat-pump dryer, eh? I don't have one, don't want one - unless I could embrace the idea of abandoning my one laundry day in exchange for doing laundry several days in a row or during the night.



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