Thread Number: 51687
Are we there yet? Heat pump dryers |
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Post# 740786 , Reply# 1   3/9/2014 at 19:18 (3,672 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Post# 740838 , Reply# 2   3/9/2014 at 23:33 (3,672 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)   |   | |
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That's what I thought. I was sure that if heat pump dryers really were available I'd've heard about it here or from some other reliable source. I'll only go ventless if I absolutely have to in order to avoid the laundromat. Thanks again. |
Post# 740855 , Reply# 3   3/10/2014 at 05:53 (3,672 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 740880 , Reply# 4   3/10/2014 at 08:18 (3,671 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 740883 , Reply# 5   3/10/2014 at 08:52 (3,671 days old) by paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 740887 , Reply# 6   3/10/2014 at 09:34 (3,671 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Heat-pump dryers are generally not that fast. There were some that were alsmost as fast a normal condenser dryers but the consumer is always looking for the next best ultra-efficient appliance. Therefore, heat-pump dryers got slower and slower.
With a full 8 kg load, which is 17.6 lbs, of standardized cotton items spun at 1,000 rpm, which translates to a residual moisture content of 60%, I have found the following times stated on the manufacturer's websites: Miele A++ efficiency = 149 minutes Bosch A+++ efficiency = 187 minutes Bosch A++ efficiency = 138 minutes AEG A+++ efficiency = 215 minutes AEG A++ efficiency = 170 minutes Keep in mind that the drums of these dryers are about half the size of US dryers, while the load capacity is almost the same - we're talking about a FULL drum of clothes here. Switzerland has already outlawed anything but HP dryers to be sold and vented dryers are rapidly disappearing from manufacturer's homepages, too. I'm glad I got my hands on a regular condenser Bosch that gets things over with in around an hour and would most certainly buy a vented dryer if I could. |
Post# 740928 , Reply# 7   3/10/2014 at 14:43 (3,671 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 740933 , Reply# 8   3/10/2014 at 14:58 (3,671 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 740936 , Reply# 9   3/10/2014 at 15:15 (3,671 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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As one recalls dryers here in the USA are not subject to much energy regulation because they all pretty much are the same. What does vary is heating power and source of fuel.
Some places such as California IIRC want residents to move away from electric to gas dryers or maybe I've got that in reverse. Where electric power rates are cheaper than gas (natural or propane) that is usually what people have installed, or again vice-versa. Here in NYC aside from small compact units/portables most every dryer I've seen or known uses natural or propane gas. |
Post# 741073 , Reply# 10   3/11/2014 at 06:22 (3,671 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Well, that used to be the case in Europe as well. But then heat-pump dryers entered the scene and made "normal" dryers look like huge energy hogs. Just look at Switzerland; they basically made anything but heapt-pump dryers illegal - from sale, owning one is still okay. ;)
Even commercial models, both small and large, are offered in HP versions from Miele, for example. And said company has already removed vented dryers from its US homepage altogether. |
Post# 741109 , Reply# 11   3/11/2014 at 11:28 (3,670 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 741118 , Reply# 12   3/11/2014 at 12:24 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Cannot see these heat pump dryers giving any major competition to what most Americans are used to having.
Miele's large vented dryer to match the 4XXX series washers was simply a hot mess. IIRC it was the first such dryer especially in gas that Miele had built and it like the washers of the series had all kinds of problems. The "Little Giant" series vented dryer is still sold in North America, but yes Miele has discontinued their "standard European capacity" models of same. You can still find them in shops or other vendors but once the supply is gone that is that. The decision to move away from vented dryers will add yet another nail into Miele's coffin in terms of US sales. You can look all over the Internet and classified adverts and find washers and dryers from that brand for sale, some NIB. The capacity is just too small for most American households, and non-vented dryers simply are hated by and large with a passion. Miele, Asko, Bosch et al, all have made serious mistakes with the American domestic laundry appliance market. The USA is *NOT* Europe and often aside from trendy and or upscale early adaptors the general population at large does not care for their offerings. When Miele launched with great fanfare their uber-sized laundry appliances they were supposed to be near commercial quality and rock solid to go up against Whirlpool's Duet. Well we know how it ended and the things were pulled from the market barely three years or so after introduction. |
Post# 741120 , Reply# 13   3/11/2014 at 12:30 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Funny, I had to think of Prius owners as well. I remember seeing tons of them in Los Angeles. Everywhere.
Just browsing a few websites bosch.de - 2 vented, 7 condenser, 24 heat-pump dryers siemens.de - 2 vented, 8 condenser, 17 heat-pump dryers miele.de - 1 vented, 9 condenser, 14 heat-pump dryers aeg.de - 3 vented, 9 condenser, 21 heat-pump dryers lg.de - only heat-pump dryers amazon.de - 28 vented, 108 condenser, 167 heat-pump dryers Seems that we're once again at the forefront of the green movement. Not sure if I really like that, though. Saving energy is great but tumbling clothes for up to three hours won't do them much good. So you save energy but spend more on clothes? |
Post# 741122 , Reply# 14   3/11/2014 at 12:38 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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"Miele has discontinued their "standard European capacity" [vented] models"
And so has Bosch USA. :-/
Maybe I should get another dryer for storage. Vented dryers to us are like Speed Queen top loaders to you - get them while you can or go vintage. I wish American dryers were more readily available but they really only seem to pop up on eBay UK - used, of course. |
Post# 741127 , Reply# 15   3/11/2014 at 13:09 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Bosch USA also like MieleUSA discontinued their "uber" sized laundry appliances after series of problems. The "Nexxt" series like the Miele huge capacity washers and dryers promised commercial quality in domestic machines, but again it didn't work out.
This is why I say various "imported" technology is not always a hit with the American market. Long as there are plenty of persons with reference points to top loaders and fast vented dryers that is the standard everything else is measured. |
Post# 741136 , Reply# 16   3/11/2014 at 13:50 (3,670 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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The Miele standard capacity vented dryers are still on the website:
www.mieleusa.com/products/models.... |
Post# 741137 , Reply# 17   3/11/2014 at 13:56 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 741141 , Reply# 18   3/11/2014 at 14:11 (3,670 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 741144 , Reply# 19   3/11/2014 at 14:38 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Post# 741164 , Reply# 20   3/11/2014 at 16:41 (3,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Miele heat pump dryers for commercial use:
www.heatpumpdryers.com/... US government examines the question of if heat pump dryers make sense for the American market: eetd.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/do_h... |
Post# 741177 , Reply# 21   3/11/2014 at 17:35 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 741179 , Reply# 22   3/11/2014 at 17:49 (3,670 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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As an alternative, Electrolux is working on a dryer that, from what I got out of skimming through the patent, recycles some of the process air. Picture 2 in this patent shows an IQ Touch dryer so we're not talking about a European product here.
www.google.com/patents/US20130255... |
Post# 741279 , Reply# 23   3/12/2014 at 03:15 (3,670 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Has nobody/anybody capitalized upon reducing the atmospheric pressure in a closed-loop dryer? Yes the vacuum pump uses power, adds cost and weight, as does the cabinetry to support subatmosphere barometrics. But it's SO much easier to evaporate water without adding heat by reducing pressure. And we're not talking surface-of-the-moon. Top-of-Mt-Everest will do, where the boiling point drops to 160F.
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Post# 741296 , Reply# 25   3/12/2014 at 06:12 (3,670 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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But others have done it more professional. A swizz institut did a research on this! |
Post# 741380 , Reply# 28   3/12/2014 at 15:08 (3,669 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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@ washman
That's what I was trying to say: government making descisions for us. While Germany as a whole seems to be greener than the US, not everyone is "totally, super, uber happy"about their washer taking three hours to do a cycle and the dryer taking another three hours. BUT our government made the discision for us and simply removed some appliances from the market place. Appliances that they deem to be too inefficient. This fall, vacuum cleaners and range hoods will be required to carry an energy label. The good thing about that label is that it also includes performance evaluations. So appliances that save energy but do a miserable can hardly be sold.
In real life, most consumers rarely use the high-efficiency cycles because they simply take too long and manufacturers have responded to that. Now, you get to chose between HE or fast(er) cycles. Case in point: Bosch's most efficient dishwashers take 3:15 hrs. for the energy label ECO cycle or 1:05 hrs. for the speedier version, if one presses the "speed" botton. Germany's most efficient washer from Bosch takes 6:30 hrs. for the energy label cycle or less than an hour for the "speed" button version. |
Post# 741382 , Reply# 30   3/12/2014 at 15:09 (3,669 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 741395 , Reply# 31   3/12/2014 at 15:43 (3,669 days old) by alineber ()   |   | |
This post has been removed by the member who posted it. |
Post# 741398 , Reply# 32   3/12/2014 at 15:53 (3,669 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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I don't think there is anyone in the government interested in the energy use of appliances. There are just a few civil servants who focus on such things and have nothing else to do. This energy saving has both been going on under republican and democrat presidents. Appliances are just not important enough to draw the attention of anyone important. It's not a political thing, it just happens no matter who is in office.
Sorry for getting off topic. Political discussions belong in the Dirty Laundry forum after all. |
Post# 741414 , Reply# 33   3/12/2014 at 17:25 (3,669 days old) by washman (o)   |   | |
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A washer (I assume washing machine) taking 6 and a half hours do to a load? Really? |
Post# 741428 , Reply# 35   3/12/2014 at 17:55 (3,669 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Governments do have a vested interest as increase energy use means the stuff has to come from somewhere. That means either building dams, burning fuels or nuclear. While the USA is blessed with abundant natural resources they are not infinite. Even then you cannot continue building more and more power plants much less increasing distribution systems forever. The ideal solution is going to involve some means of controlling demand as well.
European countries OTOH aren't always blessed with lots of fuels. Leaving aside the UK and other countries with access to North Sea oil reserves the most abundant fuel is probably coal, which brings it's own problems. Nuclear is rapidly falling out of favour with certain segments of the population but when you take that option off the table as France and Germany seem to be going, what replaces? Yes you can continue brining in natural gas from the East including Russia, but that is propping up Czar Putin of all the Russias. As with so many other issues European countries can get away with top down edicts because of strong central governments. |
Post# 741465 , Reply# 37   3/12/2014 at 20:00 (3,669 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Yes washman, Bosch/Siemens Home Appliances is selling a washer that can wash up to 6.5 hours. Of course, you'll have to select a special cycle and press the ecoPerfect button to get it to wash that long and to achieve the energy savings that are promised on the big green sticker on the washer's front - but as long as people are only looking at the energy label and buy whatever uses the least energy that's what will be bought. I remember when I worked for Europe's biggest retailer of electronics: so many people would walk through the aisle with a piece of paper and actually note down the exact energy usage of an appliance. It was like they were obsessed with it. Sure, some would come up to me and ask for my advice but most didn't care.
We'll see where things are going. Recently, even Miele, a brand typically known for no-nonsense appliances, has added self-cleaning cycles to their washers and even dishwashers along with a warning in the manual against the too frequent use of the low-temp Eco cycle. Oh well, I realize this is turning into a "The limited usefulness of the EU energy label" argument so I shall stop here. Heat-pump dryer, eh? I don't have one, don't want one - unless I could embrace the idea of abandoning my one laundry day in exchange for doing laundry several days in a row or during the night. |